Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We are far into the thread.  So era 2 metals with era 1 weaponry for the mistborn... if we even need to give the mistborn a weapon at all since it isn't actually a part of their magic system built in to it.  

Era 2 would also introduce ample access to firearms and now with the later era 2 medallions. 

Typically I think most consider "basic" loadout, i.e. daggers (maybe a handgun if Era 2), clothing, mistcloak and belt with vials for Mistborn; clothing (i.e. basic uniform), some small dagger/weapon, and spheres sown into clothing, maybe pouches.

Medallions would not be included, as they require different magic system to create. If we included those, we would have to start including fabrials and other Rosharan inventions, and that way lies madness (or Scadrial vs Roshar thread post-TLM).

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So rare in Era 1 that every single fight between mistborn or an inquisitor either needs atium to work or plot armor and electrum.  I know the rarity is stressed but even the skaa thief had it and all of the major houses had it... not barring that they were the only ones legally supposed to have mistborn anyways. 

Well, most fights in Era 1 included Vin/Kelsier (where Kelsier stole atium from pits when he destroyed it, so he had outsized supply), Inquisitors (which get it directly from TLR, so directly from supplier) or scions of the richest houses.
No need to sell Kelsier shorts as Skaa thief, nor Vin, as she was member of his crew and only other Mistborn in it.
Typically they mention that having enough atium for a minute or two is a lot.

And again, that was Era 1, in Era 2 Mistborn get exactly no Atium.
 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As far as the pursuers head... if a windrunner touches the mistborn they will be leeched.

That depends, who was faster reaction times?
But importantly, you don't have to touch an object for it to be affected by Reverse Lashing (see arrows in TWoK), so Windrunner could put down Reverse Lashing with Intent to pull in metal (or glass), and boom, vials are of the belt.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The windrunner does have the superior melee weapon but unless they are fighting naked with a sack of spheres that has no metal buckle or belt with any metal on it either to hold it to them... the mistborn doesn't have to let them get close anyways. 

At most they would have buttons and belts on uniform. And since the push goes only against metal, they would get torn of quickly, I doubt they are sewn on hard enough to carry the combined weight of Mistborn and Windrunner.
So, no Mistborn cannot keep them away like this.
 

 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Mobiltiy is in the windrunners favor because all threads quickly get slapped with "on an open field with no metal near by".  Fighting in any town or city with structures held by any metal at all and I don't think that the windrunners mobility is favored anymore.  In fact it would be the mistborn able to make faster and tighter turns with more up front acceleration "thrust generated vs fall time". 

No mobility is in Windrunners favor because

1. They are not dependent on external factor for directions in which they can move.
2. They can accelerate arbitrarily fast (multiple lashings, and they can be placed simultaneously), until they faint from the strain. Admittadly, here duralumin fueled push combined with pewter has advantage, but Mistborn is heavily limited in how often they can do it, and lack fine control.
3. Can use lashings to lower effective weight similar to F-Iron.

Mistborn is worse in every single way when it comes to mobility, with one single edge case exception.
 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I never said that the windrunner was less durable than the mistborn.  Just that if the mistborn touches the radiant it is game over.  

In an open field with no metal and 2 naked fighters mistborn with no atium or weapon because its not in their ability kit vs windrunner the windrunner wins the majority of the time because magic weapon.   There is no real argument there.  I stand by the fact that if the mistborn touches the radiant then the mistborn will leech the radiant and pop their skull even if the mistborn has noodles for arms.

Leeching is not instaneous, and Scadrial is low-investiture world compared to Roshar. It is entirely likely that it would take a second or two to fully drain Windrunner.
Even if not, getting close requires getting around Shardblade, and if for some reason they did not summon it, and Mistborn graples Windrunner, as long as Windrunner has literally any weapon on their person (or steals dagger from Mistborn), they can kill Mistborn with a single stab. Leading to mutual kill.
 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Even the sling got a kill on deadliest warrior. 

And Windrunner can turn any rock or rubble into a shot from a sling.
 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The setting or allowable gear in the fight would change everything.  Even 5 seconds of atium timed when the windrunner is in melee range would be the game changer.  No atium just era 2 stuff and the mistborn suddenly has access to medallions and guns and aluminum weaponry. Even if it was just alloy of law aluminum bullets would be available to someone from scadrial. 

5 seconds would not be enough, if Windrunner has even basic information about Mistborn (which Mistborn seems to know the best way to kill Radiant, so they probably do too).
Also, heavily Invested objects behave similarly to aluminum (non-pushable, not visible to steal sight, block rioting/soothing, etc.) and aluminum is not visible for Atium, it is possible that Shardblade would not leave atium shadows. If so, that would be a bit of a handicap, thought not as large.

Also as mentioned, medallions are result of different magic system, so out of scope of discussion (unless we allow fabrials for Windrunner, which however changes the topic.).

 

[Primeival Chaos]

Can we agree that a Mistborn with atium would demolish a 3rd ideal Radiant at least?

[Wits instant noodles]

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

At most they would have buttons and belts on uniform. And since the push goes only against metal, they would get torn of quickly, I doubt they are sewn on hard enough to carry the combined weight of Mistborn and Windrunner.
So, no Mistborn cannot keep them away like this.

Pushing wouldn't rip of the buttons using them to move the windrunner and the idea that's been presented is that is a windrunner is coming at the mistborn all they have to do is push on there belt or buttons or any other metal on them to either shove them of course or to just push themselves out of the way. If they were pulling on said metal it might pull of but a belt would probably take quite a bit of weight to come off. This is also to mention that because metal doesn't have any particular importance on Roshar that they don't often mention if they have more metal on them simply because it wouldn't mater.

[Frustration]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:05 AM, Wits instant noodles said:

why would there horses be weaker? I'm probably being dumb. Also I don't think that elevation would play a major enough role to be counted as a genuine factor or at least one that can being ignored without much consequence. Also I don't think that if they said it took twenty minutes that it was because of horrible traffic more likely it was because it actually took twenty minutes

Because of the ash and weaker plants.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is specifically 3rd ideal.  So there is no plate.  If it was a blanket radiant vs mistborn then we would get into plate discussion.  This is 3rd ideal vs mistborn.  No plate.

This is era 2 mistborn, no Atium.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A radiant without a ryshadium?   How does that even make sense other than they both end in ium?  A totally real metal that mistborn can burn vs a strong horse that has feelings for the flying radiant to play with?

The horse that was exclusively owned--and used--by Radiants before the recreance(WoR 317).

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, Primeval Ookla said:

Can we agree that a Mistborn with atium would demolish a 3rd ideal Radiant at least?

depends on if Sprenblades leave Atium trails and how much atium they have. 1 hour worth and sprenblades leaving atium trails, definitely. other conditions, maybe not.

[NameIess]

22 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It has nothing to do with emotions and everything to do with Investiture. While holding stormlight a Radiant at third ideal would be too invested to effect.

Zinc/brass are likely not affected by investiture in that way.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ookla the Untitled

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Zinc/brass are likely not affected by investiture in that way.

Why do you say that?

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why do you say that?

Because it appears to work the exact same on everyone in the Mistborn series unless they have an aluminum lined hat/are burning copper/are hemalurgic creations. Including full Mistborn. Different invested arts are affected by foreign investiture differently, some like tension/cohesion being affected greatly, others like lashings somewhere in the middle, and some like regrowth very little.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Because it appears to work the exact same on everyone in the Mistborn series unless they have an aluminum lined hat/are burning copper/are hemalurgic creations. Including full Mistborn. Different invested arts are affected by foreign investiture differently, some like tension/cohesion being affected greatly, others like lashings somewhere in the middle, and some like regrowth very little.

With the exception of Lerasium Mistborn, and TLR everyone on Scadrial is rather poorly invested.

And Shardplate is noted as making its wearer immune to emotional Allomancy, so it is affected by it's target being invested.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

With the exception of Lerasium Mistborn, and TLR everyone on Scadrial is rather poorly invested.

And Shardplate is noted as making its wearer immune to emotional Allomancy, so it is affected by it's target being invested.

Plate pretty much completely blocks all investitures, including those that are barely affected foreign investiture. And while a Mistborn might not be very invested compared to a KR, the investiture they did have still had zero effect on soothing or rioting. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Plate pretty much completely blocks all investitures, including those that are barely affected foreign investiture. And while a Mistborn might not be very invested compared to a KR, the investiture they did have still had zero effect on soothing or rioting. 

Plate has almost no effect on Aon Daa.

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

I know Invested objects and people are harder to effect with magic, but does that also apply to indirect magic, like using Aon Daa to strike someone in Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It all depends on how the magics are trying to interact. In the case you mention, there would be little interference.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3510

 

 

And the only time we've had a side by side comparison of allomancers and non allomancers affected by soothing was when it was done by TLR.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Plate has almost no effect on Aon Daa.

  Reveal hidden contents

VindicationKnight

I know Invested objects and people are harder to effect with magic, but does that also apply to indirect magic, like using Aon Daa to strike someone in Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It all depends on how the magics are trying to interact. In the case you mention, there would be little interference.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3510

 

 

And the only time we've had a side by side comparison of allomancers and non allomancers affected by soothing was when it was done by TLR.

Aon Daa isn't trying to invest or influence the person inside the Plate, it's just trying to explode. Also, if Radiants with stormlight would be immune to emotional allomancy, why does Brandon say this:
 

Spoiler

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Aon Daa isn't trying to invest or influence the person inside the Plate, it's just trying to explode. Also, if Radiants with stormlight would be immune to emotional allomancy, why does Brandon say this:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

I'm not saying immune, I'm saying resistant to the point that emotional Allomancy is not a viable strategy.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'm not saying immune, I'm saying resistant to the point that emotional Allomancy is not a viable strategy.

Breeze could soothe hundreds of people at once, so it's safe to say that someone of more average skill could do maybe a hundred. Is a Radiant a hundred times more resistant to foreign investiture than a normal person? Given the fact that it is possible to affect them with lashings, I'd say that they're not. Even if they do resist emotional allomancy, that doesn't mean that rioting your opponent's fear, guily, etc. wouldn't be useful.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Breeze could soothe hundreds of people at once, so it's safe to say that someone of more average skill could do maybe a hundred. Is a Radiant a hundred times more resistant to foreign investiture than a normal person? Given the fact that it is possible to affect them with lashings, I'd say that they're not.

Why would they need to be 100 times more resistant? The Investiture shouldn't be additive. And given that willingness has something to do with whether you are affected or not, and lashings being higher investiture I don't think that's an issue 

Spoiler

Ianray7 (paraphrased)

Would a heavily invested person or object resist a soulstamp?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) (paraphrased)

Yes, but soulstamps have a lot to do with volition. If the person was willing, they would be able to overcome that resistance to an extent.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15904

 

 

 

[Wits instant noodles]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would they need to be 100 times more resistant? The Investiture shouldn't be additive. And given that willingness has something to do with whether you are affected or not, and lashings being higher investiture I don't think that's an issue 

it doesn't have to be their are saying even if they are roughly a hundred times les susceptible that they could still be soothed or rioted. Also the WoB make it sound a lot like they can be even if not specifically stated mentioning the fact that they need plate to be removed shows that they are still somewhat susceptible to soothing and rioting

Edited December 7, 2022 by Wits instant noodles

[NameIess]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would they need to be 100 times more resistant? The Investiture shouldn't be additive. And given that willingness has something to do with whether you are affected or not, and lashings being higher investiture I don't think that's an issue 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ianray7 (paraphrased)

Would a heavily invested person or object resist a soulstamp?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) (paraphrased)

Yes, but soulstamps have a lot to do with volition. If the person was willing, they would be able to overcome that resistance to an extent.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15904

 

 

 

Why wouldn't it be, at least in terms of being able to affect people? And I'm talking about Radiants lashing unwilling invested entities.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Why wouldn't it be, at least in terms of being able to affect people?

Because emotional Allomancy doesn't get less powerful the more people you affect.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

And I'm talking about Radiants lashing unwilling invested entities.

Fused highly resist lashings, which are higher investiture than emotional Allomancy.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Because emotional Allomancy doesn't get less powerful the more people you affect.

It becomes more difficult though.

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Fused highly resist lashings, which are higher investiture than emotional Allomancy.

Fused do not require 100 times more stormlight in order to lash them and all signs indicate that emotional allomancy is better at affecting invested beings than lashings.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Aon Daa isn't trying to invest or influence the person inside the Plate, it's just trying to explode. Also, if Radiants with stormlight would be immune to emotional allomancy, why does Brandon say this:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'm not saying immune, I'm saying resistant to the point that emotional Allomancy is not a viable strategy.

That WoB seems like a good point to call a bit of a stretch to stormlight being the hand wave at pummeling a radiant with self doubt and soothing away all confidence or rioting out more depression and sapping a desire to fight.  Certainly duralumin dumping these things like Vin did would open a second or two of attack possibilities.  Almost like being given breath after spending so much time as a drab.  

 

38 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Because emotional Allomancy doesn't get less powerful the more people you affect.

Fused highly resist lashings, which are higher investiture than emotional Allomancy.

It isn't the same investiture.  Different things do different things from different sources and with different mechanisms.  Brandon says its the helmet that protects the radiant from emotional allomancy.  If there is a source where he says its just the stormlight then we can push that further.  But so far there hasn't been any evidence that stormlight alone replaces aluminum to block mental/ emotional attacks any more than there is evidence that the stormlight can stop an invested attack from a shardblade.  

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Immortal Platypus]

kind of related question, do we know what Shardblades are made of? are they just highly invested metal? if they're aluminum? Because if so, the KR can make it into something they can wear to block emotional allomancy. (maybe. depends on the limits of what SprenBlades can do.)

[Wits instant noodles]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

do we know what Shardblades are made of?

shard blades are made of a kind of alloy between cultivation, honor, and some unknown metals.

heres the WoB

Alpharho

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Alpharho

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

(sorry I don't know how to do the hidden content thing

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

It becomes more difficult though.

So does holding a perpendicularity open. It's a matter of skill, not power.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Fused do not require 100 times more stormlight in order to lash them

No, but they heavily resist it. And that 100 times makes no sense, affecting more people doesn't make your manipulation weaker.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

all signs indicate that emotional allomancy is better at affecting invested beings than lashings.

What signs?

[Monk of Dakhor]

1 hour ago, Ookla the platypus said:

kind of related question, do we know what Shardblades are made of? are they just highly invested metal? if they're aluminum? Because if so, the KR can make it into something they can wear to block emotional allomancy. (maybe. depends on the limits of what SprenBlades can do.)

As far as I know (which is not very much), what the shardblade is made of depends on the spren, as I believe that people that honorspren-blades are made almost entirely of honors-metal, as I believe this is what @Wits instant noodles was telling me IRL

[Immortal Platypus]

thank you.