Guest Posted October 26, 2014 Posted October 26, 2014 And let's not forget the scene with that girl in Sadeas's camp. Adolin does care for the common people a lot more than the average lighteyes, who really don't give a damnation. However, I think he's yet to care like an Edgedancer about the people. Granted, we don't know much about Orders and we can only guess where he'd fit. Before WoR I couldn't have guessed Dalinar would end up a Bondsmith... For now both Edgedancers and Dustbringers seem good match for him. However, I prefer him to revive his Blade rather than attract a spren, so that points in favor of Edgedancers.  On a different note, I really think we need abbreviations for these, because typing the Order's names is storming long... So ED for Edgedancer? DB for Dustbringer? But that's not as cool... I'm in a dilemma.  Yeah, good point about the prostitute... He does care more then the average, but I do agree he is not quite there yet. He has the potential though. Caring is one of his main attribute, together with bravery, although we could argue his bravery is very tightly linked to his love for his closed ones.... Almost each time Adolin does something "brave" and "reckless" he has Dalinar in mind and/or protecting those he loves....  Gee, I am seriously warming up to the idea Adolin may end up being an Edgedancer.... Although what would he do with Progression? Adhesion is a good one for him, but Progression?????? I see him work much better with Division........  I do agree about the Blade. I do wish for the same thing I love this theory so much  DB and ED are fine nickname I guess..... However, we must remember Dustbringers is the name common folk gave to the Order, within themselves, they used the term "Releaser" which has a strange connotation.... It is the only name not made out of two words and it does imply the idea they stock up on stormlight before "releasing" it in a major showdown of destruction Just some random thoughts here.  FYI, long time no see. You've been away for a while
Aleksiel Posted October 26, 2014 Posted October 26, 2014 Yeah, good point about the prostitute... He does care more then the average, but I do agree he is not quite there yet. He has the potential though. Caring is one of his main attribute, together with bravery, although we could argue his bravery is very tightly linked to his love for his closed ones.... Almost each time Adolin does something "brave" and "reckless" he has Dalinar in mind and/or protecting those he loves....  Gee, I am seriously warming up to the idea Adolin may end up being an Edgedancer.... Although what would he do with Progression? Adhesion is a good one for him, but Progression?????? I see him work much better with Division........  Well, Adolin could... could... ummm... make moss for Shallan instead of slaying it?  I hope Progression does more, otherwise why not name it just Growth with Regrowth as sub-surge? Things like growing crystals, influencing tides, even making volcanoes erupt or appear...     I do agree about the Blade. I do wish for the same thing  I love this theory so much  DB and ED are fine nickname I guess..... However, we must remember Dustbringers is the name common folk gave to the Order, within themselves, they used the term "Releaser" which has a strange connotation.... It is the only name not made out of two words and it does imply the idea they stock up on stormlight before "releasing" it in a major showdown of destruction  Just some random thoughts here  Something like the hulk-punch Kaladin does on WoR cover, but if a Releaser did it, the whole plateau would shatter?  If the common people came up with the Dustbringer's name, may be they named the other Orders as well? And in reality the Orders themselves used shorter names? However, four spren already used the long versions, so probably not...    FYI, long time no see. You've been away for a while  Yeah, I was doing an internship and didn't have as much time It's good to be back! 1
Guest Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Well, Adolin could... could... ummm... make moss for Shallan instead of slaying it?  LOL!  Adolin: "Look Shallan, to prove you my love, I give you a bouquet of... moss." Shallan: "Oh Adolin, aren't you the most romantic person ever? This is the sweetest thing anyone has ever done for me."  :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:  I could see it though, Adolin the hopeless lover growing flowers for Shallan :ph34r: and Jasnah raising an eyebrow from behind thinking she should never have introduced these two to each other :ph34r:   I hope Progression does more, otherwise why not name it just Growth with Regrowth as sub-surge? Things like growing crystals, influencing tides, even making volcanoes erupt or appear...  Oh good one. I never thought of it. Adolin growing volcanoes does make more sense then Adolin growing vines... although he does seem to like wine Perhaps he and Renarin will start a wine shop using their surge :ph34r:   Something like the hulk-punch Kaladin does on WoR cover, but if a Releaser did it, the whole plateau would shatter?  Something like that.  I get the idea "Releasers" would have the tendency to go "nuclear", if necessary. They would draw in abnormally high amount of stormlight only to release it in a major showdown of explosion, earth cracking, sky breaking and afterwards, all that would be left would be a thin cloud of dust.... hence the name Dustbringer.  Random thoughts here.....  They call themselves "Releasers", but to everyone else, they are the "Dustbringers". Their powers are highly destructive, they fight for what is right and they are brave enough to do what is right, but they do not follow any written law. They act on impulse, on feelings which makes them unpredictable and fearsome. People who have something to hide would fear them the most, people who have been abused by criminal absolved by unjust laws would cheer for them, but these people are not the ones that got to write Words of Radiance....  If I am right, then Adolin would be such a perfect fit   Yeah, I was doing an internship and didn't have as much time It's good to be back!  I had wonder where you had gone. It is good to have you back. I hope your internship was pleasant and instructive enough.
Aleksiel Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Adolin: "Look Shallan, to prove you my love, I give you a bouquet of... moss." Shallan: "Oh Adolin, aren't you the most romantic person ever? This is the sweetest thing anyone has ever done for me."  :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:  I could see it though, Adolin the hopeless lover growing flowers for Shallan :ph34r: and Jasnah raising an eyebrow from behind thinking she should never have introduced these two to each other :ph34r:  Pretty much sums how they sounded to Kal in WoR on that carriage ride     Oh good one. I never thought of it. Adolin growing volcanoes does make more sense then Adolin growing vines... although he does seem to like wine  Perhaps he and Renarin will start a wine shop using their surge    He could then proceed to produce his own wine, so he wouldn't have to remember any names  He'd leave Ren to be Highprince after Dalinar's death in the 5th book and run a winehouse for a decade before the 6th, but then a new enemy will arise, and Adolin will then fight for the Tranquiline Halls.     Something like that.  I get the idea "Releasers" would have the tendency to go "nuclear", if necessary. They would draw in abnormally high amount of stormlight only to release it in a major showdown of explosion, earth cracking, sky breaking and afterwards, all that would be left would be a thin cloud of dust.... hence the name Dustbringer.  Random thoughts here.....  They call themselves "Releasers", but to everyone else, they are the "Dustbringers". Their powers are highly destructive, they fight for what is right and they are brave enough to do what is right, but they do not follow any written law. They act on impulse, on feelings which makes them unpredictable and fearsome. People who have something to hide would fear them the most, people who have been abused by criminal absolved by unjust laws would cheer for them, but these people are not the ones that got to write Words of Radiance....  If I am right, then Adolin would be such a perfect fit  So, you see Releasers to be protective like Windrunners, caring like Edgedancers, lawful like Skybreakers, fierce and fearless warriors. No pressure, Adolin, you'll fit right in!    I had wonder where you had gone. It is good to have you back. I hope your internship was pleasant and instructive enough.  You're very kind, thank you! It was everything I hoped for. It's always fun to discuss things with you, especially Adolin  edit: oops, I used a wrong Order name Edited October 27, 2014 by Aleksiel
Guest Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Pretty much sums how they sounded to Kal in WoR on that carriage ride  Was a funny scene with Kaladin snickering in the background....   So, you see Releasers to be protective like Windrunners, caring like Edgedancers, lawful like Skybreakers, fierce and fearless warriors. No pressure, Adolin, you'll fit right in!  Nah, you are putting too much thought into it...  I see them as the opposite of the Skybreakers... Skybreakers follow the law to the bone, but laws are not always fair and can sometimes be twisted to product the guilty *cough* *Sadeas* *cough* *Roshone* *cough* *Amaram* and condemn the innocents *cough* *Kaladin* *cough* *Moash's parents*. I thus think there has to be another order who deals with those miscreants and I think the Dustbringer could be the one, bringing forward a vigilante kind of justice that would agree with murdering in the dark some scum bad openly threatening your family...  They would quite the opposite of lawful as for protecting... well we could say there is some protectiveness can sometimes be involved, but in the same sense as Kaladin... Kaladin strives for nothing less then the safety of his men. It is his sole goal. Releasers would strive to do the right thing no matter what it is. They would call on courage to perform acts other would frown upon, but are much needed.  As for warriors... well they do have the surges of Adhesion and Division while defending the attributes of Brave and Obedience... it does suggest "warrior".  Besides, aren't the Edgedancers supposed to be loving and healing all the while keeping up with the reputation of being the deadliest fighters ever? I guess a good Edgedancer will fight to the bone for those he loves, but will care enough to heal the casualty afterwards and bearing respects to the dead..... Kinda of a hard one too.....  You're very kind, thank you! It was everything I hoped for. It's always fun to discuss things with you, especially Adolin  Forum was quiet for a while. It is good we can have discussions again Edited October 27, 2014 by maxal
Aleksiel Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I see them as the opposite of the Skybreakers... Skybreakers follow the law to the bone, but laws are not always fair and can sometimes be twisted to product the guilty *cough* *Sadeas* *cough* *Roshone* *cough* *Amaram* and condemn the innocents *cough* *Kaladin* *cough* *Moash's parents*. I thus think there has to be another order who deals with those miscreants and I think the Dustbringer could be the one, bringing forward a vigilante kind of justice that would agree with murdering in the dark some scum bad openly threatening your family... Â They would quite the opposite of lawful as for protecting... well we could say there is some protectiveness can sometimes be involved, but in the same sense as Kaladin... Kaladin strives for nothing less then the safety of his men. It is his sole goal. Releasers would strive to do the right thing no matter what it is. They would call on courage to perform acts other would frown upon, but are much needed. Â As for warriors... well they do have the surges of Adhesion and Division while defending the attributes of Brave and Obedience... it does suggest "warrior". Â Besides, aren't the Edgedancers supposed to be loving and healing all the while keeping up with the reputation of being the deadliest fighters ever? Â Well, I actually think what you described as Releaser's mentality to be the Edgedancer's thing and that's why they were feared upon their arrival as the epigraph in chapter 46 states. At least that's how imagine them to be - not having the difficulties a Windrunner or Skybreaker would when faced with someone like Sadeas or Amaram. Edgedancers care about the common people and won't hesitate to fix an injustice in a... hm, decisive manner. There isn't much about either Order, so it's hard to say...
Guest Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Well, I actually think what you described as Releaser's mentality to be the Edgedancer's thing and that's why they were feared upon their arrival as the epigraph in chapter 46 states. At least that's how imagine them to be - not having the difficulties a Windrunner or Skybreaker would when faced with someone like Sadeas or Amaram. Edgedancers care about the common people and won't hesitate to fix an injustice in a... hm, decisive manner. There isn't much about either Order, so it's hard to say... Â That's an interesting thought.... I have always visualized the Dustbringers as the ones being brave enough to the do the right thing no matter the consequences. The Edgedancers would be the ones loving enough to care about people, but would this translate directly into taking such drastic actions? Wouldn't murder contradicts the idea someone has to be "healing"? Â So you think "loving" is the key to taking down Sadeas? I tend to think "brave" was as it was a rather reckless emotionally driven action that needed doing, but that no one else could do. I understand you line of thoughts, but I am unsure about it. Shouldn't Edgedancers be the ones to weep on the battlefield as they are forced to kill people? Their first oath is I will remember the forgotten and saying it gave Lift the power to heal back Gawk. It does not really fit with Adolin murdering Sadeas, but a potential first oaths for the Dustbringers such as I will do what is right no matter the consequences would.... One oath implies loving and the other bravery. I do tend to think Adolin fits better within the second then the first and the characteristics of the Dustbringers seem better inline with the idea of a vigilante. Â There is also the fact Edgedancers sound quite frilly and superficial, could they really be grave and serious enough to undertake the task to remove the trash? Â Edgedancers and Dustbringers both shared the surge of Adhesion which would turn both of them into very agile and deadly fighters. Both orders appear to have been amongst the most feared.
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 LOL!  Adolin: "Look Shallan, to prove you my love, I give you a bouquet of... moss." Shallan: "Oh Adolin, aren't you the most romantic person ever? This is the sweetest thing anyone has ever done for me."  :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:  I could see it though, Adolin the hopeless lover growing flowers for Shallan :ph34r: and Jasnah raising an eyebrow from behind thinking she should never have introduced these two to each other :ph34r:  Storms, I just imagined this situation... With Kal standing in the background and sharing with Jasnah a look of horror  On the more serious note, I'm too lazy and my Internet connection is too slow to quote all the parts I want to reference, so I will just say that my view of Dustbringers/Releasers is in fact very similair to the one presented by maxal. Pretty much exactly the same in fact And therefore I strongly believe that Adolin fits more in this order than the Edgedancers (but I agree, there is also some good evidence to the contrary and I'd totally love to see him revive his Blade).  In my opinion Edgedancers were so feared because of their speed and, to use Lift's phrasing, "slickness", which made them much more difficult to hurt. At the same time I have a theory that their ability of Regrowth makes them even better at healing themselves even compared to the other orders (same goes for Truthwatchers). So let's see: nearly impossible to touch and very good at healing theselves - kind of invincible in the eyes of people. I believe I'd fear someone who supposedly cannot be hurt as much as someone who changes the battlefield into a desolation (honestly I kind of see the powers of Dustbringers as some cool mix of Hulk, Smaug and maybe Flash).  Adolin does care for others, but while he helps the prostitute he's mostly focused on protecting and helping his family. It's Dalinar, Renarin and so on who he truly deeply cares about, not the "forgotten ones". Yes, he has good heart and helps anyone when he sees they need it, but he doesn't think too much on how can he help people he doesn't know, the lowly ones no-one cares about. But he spends considerable amount of time worrying about those who are close to him, so I don't think he's caring/loving enough to be an Edgedancer. Compare with Lift - she met Gawx the very same day (correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure about it) and doesn't seem to like him too much. He's not her friend or anything, yet she cares, even putting herself in risky position because of Darkness. Adolin helped the protitute, but didn't risk anything doing it. He cares, but not yet on the same level.  Bravery is something that causes people to do dangerous or reckless things, but it's also needed to face the consequences of one's doings. I see this in Adolin - he's brave enough to lead his men to fight and to take on the fully-disadvantaged duel (is it what it was called?) even knowing the risks. And I believe him to be brave enough to accept any consequences of Sadeas' murder. And he is obedient too - he never really trusted Sadeas but wasn't openly antagonistic towards him because Dalinar told him to. At first he disliked the Codes and didn't understand their meaning but he still followed them and defended them before the others because of his father. I don't recall anything he did against Dalinar's will (except spending time in the prison with Kaladin, but it's kind of a different situation) so he's very obedient towards his father. That makes him a perfect Dustbringer candidate in my eyes.  On the other note, I have a feeling that Dustbringers' attribute is obedience in order to tame their destructive powers - kind of if they weren't somehow watched over/controlled they could cause much damage while still having the best intentions.  And besides - there is the matter of Adolin's intuition (his "feelings" about Sadeas, Amaram and Kaladin that all turned out to be true and justified). It seems to be a foreshadowing to him being a Radiant, but I can't quite place such abilities with any of the Orders. Someone has any idea? Or maybe it's just additional ability having nothing to do with any particular Order?
Aleksiel Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 That's an interesting thought.... I have always visualized the Dustbringers as the ones being brave enough to the do the right thing no matter the consequences. The Edgedancers would be the ones loving enough to care about people, but would this translate directly into taking such drastic actions? Wouldn't murder contradicts the idea someone has to be "healing"?  So you think "loving" is the key to taking down Sadeas? I tend to think "brave" was as it was a rather reckless emotionally driven action that needed doing, but that no one else could do. I understand you line of thoughts, but I am unsure about it. Shouldn't Edgedancers be the ones to weep on the battlefield as they are forced to kill people? Their first oath is I will remember the forgotten and saying it gave Lift the power to heal back Gawk. It does not really fit with Adolin murdering Sadeas, but a potential first oaths for the Dustbringers such as I will do what is right no matter the consequences would.... One oath implies loving and the other bravery. I do tend to think Adolin fits better within the second then the first and the characteristics of the Dustbringers seem better inline with the idea of a vigilante.  There is also the fact Edgedancers sound quite frilly and superficial, could they really be grave and serious enough to undertake the task to remove the trash?  Edgedancers and Dustbringers both shared the surge of Adhesion which would turn both of them into very agile and deadly fighters. Both orders appear to have been amongst the most feared.  I can't agree bravery was the key to killing Sadeas, because there was nothing brave about what Adolin did: stabbing in the eye an unprepared foe. If anything, I'd go with anger, not a divine attribute. Don't forget Windrunners are supposed to be about whats right, and in a way every Order is about doing the right thing the way they see it. Even Sadeas was doing what he thought right, so I doubt there would be such an oath.  Remember how Kal tried to convince himself to help assassinate Elhokar using the metaphor of the limb that needed to be removed for the good of the body (or something, I'm too lazy to find the quote)? I think would have worked for an Edgedancer. And I think that's part of the reason they were called deadly and were feared. They'd be the Order that's most likely to hang around rich, powerful people; add their tendency to care deeply about the less fortunate, remove the WIndrunners and Skybreakers limitations, and you have Radiants whose arrival makes many shiver and has earned them a deadly reputation even among those they help.   In my opinion Edgedancers were so feared because of their speed and, to use Lift's phrasing, "slickness", which made them much more difficult to hurt. At the same time I have a theory that their ability of Regrowth makes them even better at healing themselves even compared to the other orders (same goes for Truthwatchers). So let's see: nearly impossible to touch and very good at healing theselves - kind of invincible in the eyes of people. I believe I'd fear someone who supposedly cannot be hurt as much as someone who changes the battlefield into a desolation (honestly I kind of see the powers of Dustbringers as some cool mix of Hulk, Smaug and maybe Flash).  Kal healed his arm after it was cut by a Blade in a matter of seconds, I can't imagine any Order having better self-healing than the others. I think this usage of Regrowth is reserved to healing others and doesn't enhance their own survivability directly.    Adolin does care for others, but while he helps the prostitute he's mostly focused on protecting and helping his family. It's Dalinar, Renarin and so on who he truly deeply cares about, not the "forgotten ones". Yes, he has good heart and helps anyone when he sees they need it, but he doesn't think too much on how can he help people he doesn't know, the lowly ones no-one cares about. But he spends considerable amount of time worrying about those who are close to him, so I don't think he's caring/loving enough to be an Edgedancer. Compare with Lift - she met Gawx the very same day (correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure about it) and doesn't seem to like him too much. He's not her friend or anything, yet she cares, even putting herself in risky position because of Darkness. Adolin helped the protitute, but didn't risk anything doing it. He cares, but not yet on the same level.  Bravery is something that causes people to do dangerous or reckless things, but it's also needed to face the consequences of one's doings. I see this in Adolin - he's brave enough to lead his men to fight and to take on the fully-disadvantaged duel (is it what it was called?) even knowing the risks. And I believe him to be brave enough to accept any consequences of Sadeas' murder. And he is obedient too - he never really trusted Sadeas but wasn't openly antagonistic towards him because Dalinar told him to. At first he disliked the Codes and didn't understand their meaning but he still followed them and defended them before the others because of his father. I don't recall anything he did against Dalinar's will (except spending time in the prison with Kaladin, but it's kind of a different situation) so he's very obedient towards his father. That makes him a perfect Dustbringer candidate in my eyes.  Adolin doesn't yet care on Edgedancer level, but he has the potential to get there. His protectiveness is driven by love; it's a different motivation than Kal's. He's not driven by recklessness or even bravery. He's brave enough to protect the people he cares about, but bravery itself is not his leading character trait.  He does show obedience, but more to the society norms. He's been talking back to Dalinar all the way in WoK. Keep in mind the other proto-Radiants didn't explicitly expressed both attributes at the time they attracted spren or at least it's not something everyone will agree on. Did Shallan seem honest when she got Pattern back? Was Dalinar guiding? Renarin giving? I had a hard time accepting he has traits that allow him to pass as learned.    And besides - there is the matter of Adolin's intuition (his "feelings" about Sadeas, Amaram and Kaladin that all turned out to be true and justified). It seems to be a foreshadowing to him being a Radiant, but I can't quite place such abilities with any of the Orders. Someone has any idea? Or maybe it's just additional ability having nothing to do with any particular Order?  I've wondered about it as well. Could it that he's slowly reviving his Blade and it somehow communicates with him on subconscious level like when he was fighting Szeth and suddenly there's an italic Duck that some believe was the spren talking? Future is for Truthwatchers, but Skybreakers supposedly have some almost divine ability we know nothing of. I don't think it's an Edgedancers thing - Lift felt the pain of the larkin, so their passive power would be more like empathy. Could some hunches like these be part of the reason Stonewards were so dependable and resourceful? With so little info it's impossible to say. However, Dustbringers having such intuition is more likely to make them disobey rather than show obedience, so I'm inclined to rule their Order out on this.
lol_king he/him Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) In Dalinar's Purelake vision the Female Radiant has Adolin like shardplate, and also has abrasion surge. Not an in world evidence, but i think it could be foreshadowing of Adolin's order. So it could be either Dustbringer or Edgedancer. I'm leaning towards edgedancer, because Adolin fits the loving trait (because of his friendliness and dating history and all). And the other radiants also had one attribute in the forefront and develop the other during the journey towards full radianthood. But the female radiant seems like a Dustbringer, because her shardplate glowed deep red, and squires (to me edgedancers don't seem like an order with squires), and also a sbardblade described as enormous (a beeter description would have helped though). So it could go either ways between the two. Edited October 30, 2014 by lol_king
Aleksiel Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I'm a bit curious how Dalinar recognized Adolon's Plate. Didn't anyone in all those centuries paint it? It's not like Plate has recognizable patterns like Blades.
lol_king he/him Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I think it's given in the books that each set of shardplate was unique. Shallan uses the excuse to update the records of shardplate and shardplate to meet amaram and other purposes (don't remember). And When szeth first sees gavilar in shardplate he remarks that he didn't recognize it, he would only say that if there was something special about each plate. Paint is not reliable as they keep changing it.
Guest Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Storms, I just imagined this situation... With Kal standing in the background and sharing with Jasnah a look of horror Yeah... And Kaladin sights in the background, rolls his eyes, looks at Jasnah and says: "How about we leave these kids to their antics... Would you care to join me for a walk? There is good wind tonight..." Then they both quietly strode away to enjoy a calm evening of quiet chattering with each other In my opinion Edgedancers were so feared because of their speed and, to use Lift's phrasing, "slickness", which made them much more difficult to hurt. At the same time I have a theory that their ability of Regrowth makes them even better at healing themselves even compared to the other orders (same goes for Truthwatchers). So let's see: nearly impossible to touch and very good at healing theselves - kind of invincible in the eyes of people. I believe I'd fear someone who supposedly cannot be hurt as much as someone who changes the battlefield into a desolation (honestly I kind of see the powers of Dustbringers as some cool mix of Hulk, Smaug and maybe Flash). I do agree with Aleksiel over the fact the Progression surge would not impact their self-healing abilities. It has more to do with their ability to heal others. I do agree about your depiction of the Dustbringer: they and the Edgedancers must have a similar fighting style as they both use the same surge. Adolin does care for others, but while he helps the prostitute he's mostly focused on protecting and helping his family. It's Dalinar, Renarin and so on who he truly deeply cares about, not the "forgotten ones". Yes, he has good heart and helps anyone when he sees they need it, but he doesn't think too much on how can he help people he doesn't know, the lowly ones no-one cares about. But he spends considerable amount of time worrying about those who are close to him, so I don't think he's caring/loving enough to be an Edgedancer. Compare with Lift - she met Gawx the very same day (correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure about it) and doesn't seem to like him too much. He's not her friend or anything, yet she cares, even putting herself in risky position because of Darkness. Adolin helped the protitute, but didn't risk anything doing it. He cares, but not yet on the same level. I do not think rescuing the prostitute was an example of Adolin caring/protecting/helping for his family... I was more under the impression he saw a poor women being molested and he felt he had to intervene. He is a kind and good-hearted man who has the tendency to think of others before himself. Dalinar would have most likely done the same thing, however this particular behavior was quite unexpected from Adolin at that point in the story. Summoning his shardblade within an enemy warcamp is not completely without risks.... He was seriously out numbered and a physical interaction would have meant his men getting hurt. However, I think it could be compared to Lift rescuing Gawx. He does risk retribution to save a women, most likely from the 10th nahn (meaning hardly more then an animal to other lighteyes), he has never met before. He does imply some level of care. Bravery is something that causes people to do dangerous or reckless things, but it's also needed to face the consequences of one's doings. I see this in Adolin - he's brave enough to lead his men to fight and to take on the fully-disadvantaged duel (is it what it was called?) even knowing the risks. And I believe him to be brave enough to accept any consequences of Sadeas' murder. And he is obedient too - he never really trusted Sadeas but wasn't openly antagonistic towards him because Dalinar told him to. At first he disliked the Codes and didn't understand their meaning but he still followed them and defended them before the others because of his father. I don't recall anything he did against Dalinar's will (except spending time in the prison with Kaladin, but it's kind of a different situation) so he's very obedient towards his father. That makes him a perfect Dustbringer candidate in my eyes. I do agree. This is exactly how I see Adolin: brave enough to do what must be done. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty, to lower himself to imprisonment if circumstances demand it. He does not back down from a challenge, even if the odds are against him. He refuses to abandon without at least giving a fight, but he is not overly stubborn as he is willing to admit when he is bested (he definitely is not a Stoneward). Adolin is brave, now the question Aleksiel have raise is: "Is he braver than caring?" and which order takes the trash out: "Edgedancers or Dustbringers?" I tend to believe Dustbringers as "doing what has to be done" requires more courage then care. As for the other question, Adolin does cares, but so far his care has been mostly directed towards his family. However, he does admit on a few occasions purposely keeping a composed exterior and refusing to speak his fears in order to show his family he is in control, because he feels they need him... As if he is trying to put on a "brave" face no matter what happens. He feels very responsible towards their well-being and I tend to see that as the syndrome of the oldest child prematurely taking up the role of the care-taker following a parent's death. Adolin has a strong incentive to obey to Dalinar, even when he disagrees. He complains all the time, but ultimately, he does as he is told and feels better for it. On the other note, I have a feeling that Dustbringers' attribute is obedience in order to tame their destructive powers - kind of if they weren't somehow watched over/controlled they could cause much damage while still having the best intentions. I once said the very same thing in another old thread... How I thought Dustbringers had a strong potential to go rogue and how obedient attribute was instated to control them, to give them boundaries, much in the way Dalinar is trying to do with Adolin. He gives him the code so he can learn to control himself. And besides - there is the matter of Adolin's intuition (his "feelings" about Sadeas, Amaram and Kaladin that all turned out to be true and justified). It seems to be a foreshadowing to him being a Radiant, but I can't quite place such abilities with any of the Orders. Someone has any idea? Or maybe it's just additional ability having nothing to do with any particular Order? He is also right about Eshonai... When he meets her on the Plains he immediately sees something is wrong with her, but he can't explain it, so he dismiss it. He is a very intuitive person and has yet to be wrong... He just feels things, he knows when it is wrong and when it is right... and he impulsively acts on these feelings. I do think part of being a Dustbringer is being intuitive, to have some sort of fifth sense to guide you towards doing the right thing as if you don't, you end up being the bad guy I can't agree bravery was the key to killing Sadeas, because there was nothing brave about what Adolin did: stabbing in the eye an unprepared foe. If anything, I'd go with anger, not a divine attribute. Don't forget Windrunners are supposed to be about whats right, and in a way every Order is about doing the right thing the way they see it. Even Sadeas was doing what he thought right, so I doubt there would be such an oath. It is not how the killing was performed that was brave, but the act of defiance killing a Highprince represents. He snapped. When he finally understood there is NOTHING they could do about Sadeas, that he would try to undermine his family, always and would NEVER stop: he takes matters into his hands. At this point, I believe he completely falls to his emotional side and let the rage rule him, for better or for worst but we can't say taking out the trash the way he did was cowardly. It goes against everything he has ever been taught. Deciding to take such drastic measures does require courage as the consequences will be dire. Now, it is true Adolin was not completely himself and already was on the verge of transforming himself into an emotional nut ball seconds before, but he did act. Windrunners are not about doing what is right, they are about protecting others. Kaladin pesters against this fact as he struggles to convince himself killing Elhokar is the right thing. It may be the right thing, but it is not up to him to decide. He is not a judge nor an executioner: he is a protector. Sadeas thought he was doing the right thing for himself. He never had any care for what was best for the kingdom or the people. Only himself mattered. Adolin doesn't yet care on Edgedancer level, but he has the potential to get there. His protectiveness is driven by love; it's a different motivation than Kal's. He's not driven by recklessness or even bravery. He's brave enough to protect the people he cares about, but bravery itself is not his leading character trait. He does show obedience, but more to the society norms. He's been talking back to Dalinar all the way in WoK. Keep in mind the other proto-Radiants didn't explicitly expressed both attributes at the time they attracted spren or at least it's not something everyone will agree on. Did Shallan seem honest when she got Pattern back? Was Dalinar guiding? Renarin giving? I had a hard time accepting he has traits that allow him to pass as learned. I agree he could get there, which is why I do not think it is a bad match. If the second attribute was something else then healing, I'd think it'd fit, but healing....? Adolin? Really? Adolin does not obey so much to the society norms... He wants to. He wants to fit in. He is a young man with a friendly nature: he wants to be part of the group, but he does not fit within the group. He thinks he has to fit in, but we see him drifting away from this idea in WoR. He distances himself from his former friends and took-up the role of Dalinar's right hand man. He angst a few times against the Alethi ways as it did not allowed one to talk back to an insult, but it approved of betraying an ally on the battlefield. By the end of WoR, I think Adolin is quite fed up with the Alethi conventions. The second attribute seem to be the one they all need to work on... Shallan needs to learn how to be honest with herself. Dalinar needs to learn how to guide others. Renarin needs to learn how to share. Kaladin needs to learn how to lead. What does Adolin need to learn about? Does he need to learn how to be more obedient or more healing? What would Adolin do with healing? It is so far from his nature....... I've wondered about it as well. Could it that he's slowly reviving his Blade and it somehow communicates with him on subconscious level like when he was fighting Szeth and suddenly there's an italic Duck that some believe was the spren talking? Future is for Truthwatchers, but Skybreakers supposedly have some almost divine ability we know nothing of. I don't think it's an Edgedancers thing - Lift felt the pain of the larkin, so their passive power would be more like empathy. Could some hunches like these be part of the reason Stonewards were so dependable and resourceful? With so little info it's impossible to say. However, Dustbringers having such intuition is more likely to make them disobey rather than show obedience, so I'm inclined to rule their Order out on this. I think his intuition is his special thing..... much like Shallan has her memory and Kaladin has his charisma. I also think having intuition is the reason Dustbringers have to be obedient, such as not to turn into rogue agentsÂ. There is a case that can be made the duck word was his Blade warning him. It would sweet if it were I'm a bit curious how Dalinar recognized Adolon's Plate. Didn't anyone in all those centuries paint it? It's not like Plate has recognizable patterns like Blades. Brandon said recently each plate was quite similar but there were distinction based on Order. Therefore, all Dustbringers' plates would look similar. I doubt Dalinar saw Adolin's plate in his vision, but he saw a plate from the same order and it looked almost identical. Edited October 28, 2014 by maxal
Aleksiel Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014   I do agree. This is exactly how I see Adolin: brave enough to do what must be done. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty, to lower himself to imprisonment if circumstances demand it. He does not back down from a challenge, even if the odds are against him. He refuses to abandon without at least giving a fight, but he is not overly stubborn as he is willing to admit when he is bested (he definitely is not a Stoneward). Adolin is brave, now the question Aleksiel have raise is: "Is he braver than caring?" and which order takes the trash out: "Edgedancers or Dustbringers?" I once said the very same thing in another old thread... How I thought Dustbringers had a strong potential to go rogue and how obedient attribute was instated to control them, to give them boundaries, much in the way Dalinar is trying to do with Adolin. He gives him the code so he can learn to control himself.  this is an interesting idea. I don't think anyone enforced the second attributes of each Order, but that they are naturally developed by each Radiant as s/he progresses. I agree Adolin is brave, however the source of his bravery are his loved ones. Not 'bravery vs care', but that his caring and loving nature gives him strength and courage.  Just try to imagine Releasers personality - I think of them as some rude and overall unpleasant individuals. Now take a look at the refined, eloquent and deadly Edgedancers. Wouldn't Adolin and his cologne fit right in?  It is not how the killing was performed that was brave, but the act of defiance killing a Highprince represents. He snapped. When he finally understood there is NOTHING they could do about Sadeas, that he would try to undermine his family, always and would NEVER stop: he takes matters into his hands. At this point, I believe he completely falls to his emotional side and let the rage rule him, for better or for worst but we can't say taking out the trash the way he did was cowardly. It goes against everything he has ever been taught. Deciding to take such drastic measures does require courage as the consequences will be dire. Now, it is true Adolin was not completely himself and already was on the verge of transforming himself into an emotional nut ball seconds before, but he did act. Windrunners are not about doing what is right, they are about protecting others. Kaladin pesters against this fact as he struggles to convince himself killing Elhokar is the right thing. It may be the right thing, but it is not up to him to decide. He is not a judge nor an executioner: he is a protector. Sadeas thought he was doing the right thing for himself. He never had any care for what was best for the kingdom or the people. Only himself mattered. I agree he could get there, which is why I do not think it is a bad match. If the second attribute was something else then healing, I'd think it'd fit, but healing....? Adolin? Really? Adolin does not obey so much to the society norms... He wants to. He wants to fit in. He is a young man with a friendly nature: he wants to be part of the group, but he does not fit within the group. He thinks he has to fit in, but we see him drifting away from this idea in WoR. He distances himself from his former friends and took-up the role of Dalinar's right hand man. He angst a few times against the Alethi ways as it did not allowed one to talk back to an insult, but it approved of betraying an ally on the battlefield. By the end of WoR, I think Adolin is quite fed up with the Alethi conventions. The second attribute seem to be the one they all need to work on... Shallan needs to learn how to be honest with herself. Dalinar needs to learn how to guide others. Renarin needs to learn how to share. Kaladin needs to learn how to lead. What does Adolin need to learn about? Does he need to learn how to be more obedient or more healing? What would Adolin do with healing? It is so far from his nature.......  By killing Sadeas, Adolin became less obedient, so it's not an act that I perceive as helpful towards his Dustbringer way, however it's quite fitting for the healing done by removing rotten limb that I associate with Edgedancers. I still don't agree bravery was involved, but let's agree to disagree on this one  If we don't take healing literally, it fits Adolin's personality to a degree: he's light-hearted, makes people laugh and enjoy themselves, even Kaladin was relaxed around him at the end.  Now, I understand why you think Adolin could become a Dustbringer and I agree. However, there's an arguably equal chance of him becoming an Edgedancer, so I want to show the arguments in favor of this. Since I'm inclined to believe Adolin will revive his Blade that has vines, I'm in the Edgedancer camp. If he is to attract a spren, then there are several options of Orders we know too little to speculate. However, I don't think attracting a spren is the natural progression of Adolin's character, otherwise he's the same as his brother and father. Reviving a Blade is so much cooler and would make him unique.    Brandon said recently each plate was quite similar but there were distinction based on Order. Therefore, all Dustbringers' plates would look similar. I doubt Dalinar saw Adolin's plate in his vision, but he saw a plate from the same order and it looked almost identical.  If so, then how come Dalinar, who has seen dozens of Shardplates, has never seen another similar to Adolin's? His reaction wasn't like 'Oh, look, a Plate that looks like another I've seen, it happens', he was more like 'Stormfather, how is this possible?'; like he had never seen two Plates look alike.
Guest Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 this is an interesting idea. I don't think anyone enforced the second attributes of each Order, but that they are naturally developed by each Radiant as s/he progresses. I agree Adolin is brave, however the source of his bravery are his loved ones. Not 'bravery vs care', but that his caring and loving nature gives him strength and courage.  Just try to imagine Releasers personality - I think of them as some rude and overall unpleasant individuals. Now take a look at the refined, eloquent and deadly Edgedancers. Wouldn't Adolin and his cologne fit right in?  I tend to think the Releasers were widely misunderstood and that whoever wrote Words of Radiance remembered what he wanted... I mean, they have "bravery" as their first attribute, how it is people who are inherently brave be despised? They must have won countless of battles, saving countless of life while risking theirs... I just cannot fathom none of them came out as being true heroes. However I do think there is a strong chance the order was tainted by the bad behavior of some individual who went rogue.  He does fit within refined, eloquent and deadly, but Edgedancers sound more easy going, less duty oriented then Adolin who lives and breaths to see his family safe and protected. He keeps saying all he wants is an easy-going life filled with duels, wine and pretty girls, but when put against reality, he chooses duty first. Edgedancers seem too frivolous for Adolin.... but again, you make a good point. I am torn over this one.  In the 4 on 1 duel, does he go for it because he is brave or because he cares too much about his father's plan to abandon without a fight? It is so hard to see which one comes first...   By killing Sadeas, Adolin became less obedient, so it's not an act that I perceive as helpful towards his Dustbringer way, however it's quite fitting for the healing done by removing rotten limb that I associate with Edgedancers. I still don't agree bravery was involved, but let's agree to disagree on this one  If we don't take healing literally, it fits Adolin's personality to a degree: he's light-hearted, makes people laugh and enjoy themselves, even Kaladin was relaxed around him at the end.  He broke the law, but perhaps Dustbringers are supposed to break the laws when they are proven unjust.... If Skybreakers can be allowed to twist the law to serve their needs, then there must be another order that discard the law to distribute deserved punishment...  I am not sure I agree with myself, so feel free to disagree. I think this is a very hard one to gauge.  Yeah, but even if we don't take healing literally, isn't it a stretch to think being an easy-going friendly person is a form of healing? I did not get he was healing Kal in this scene, more like he was taming the wild beast.... How would healing fit within Adolin's progression? I can see obedience being part of it: it is an easy one. He has struggled with it for two books now, but healing? Healing does imply making others feel better, but it is not quite Adolin...   Now, I understand why you think Adolin could become a Dustbringer and I agree. However, there's an arguably equal chance of him becoming an Edgedancer, so I want to show the arguments in favor of this. Since I'm inclined to believe Adolin will revive his Blade that has vines, I'm in the Edgedancer camp. If he is to attract a spren, then there are several options of Orders we know too little to speculate. However, I don't think attracting a spren is the natural progression of Adolin's character, otherwise he's the same as his brother and father. Reviving a Blade is so much cooler and would make him unique.  You do make a good case for it and I do agree it is a possibility. I am in the "Adolin revives his Blade" as well as it would call for an amazing story plot. I am not entirely convinced the vines on the Blade marks it as an Edgedancer's Blade, but the case is there. Adolin won't attract a spren: he'll tame one and win her over by being the friendly attaching over-eager young man he is  I do not see Adolin within any other orders.    If so, then how come Dalinar, who has seen dozens of Shardplates, has never seen another similar to Adolin's? His reaction wasn't like 'Oh, look, a Plate that looks like another I've seen, it happens', he was more like 'Stormfather, how is this possible?'; like he had never seen two Plates look alike.   It came for his mother who is either a foreigner or Salash It could be it is quite unique and there no others like that one in Alethkar. I also tend to think it is not pure hazard he's got this specific plate....
Aleksiel Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 He does fit within refined, eloquent and deadly, but Edgedancers sound more easy going, less duty oriented then Adolin who lives and breaths to see his family safe and protected. He keeps saying all he wants is an easy-going life filled with duels, wine and pretty girls, but when put against reality, he chooses duty first. Edgedancers seem too frivolous for Adolin.... but again, you make a good point. I am torn over this one.  I imagine Edgedancers like that: looking chill and relaxed, care-free on the outside, but being very different when you get to know one of them.    He broke the law, but perhaps Dustbringers are supposed to break the laws when they are proven unjust.... If Skybreakers can be allowed to twist the law to serve their needs, then there must be another order that discard the law to distribute deserved punishment...   Windrunners break the law when they don't consider it right according to Syl and Kal's prison conversation; Jasnah has broken the law; Shallan has broken the law... Overall the law doesn't seem very popular among the Radiants.  Since 'I will follow the law above all else' is Skybreakers' second oath, there can't be a case of bending the law without killing one's spren, so Skybreakers aren't allowed to bend the law.   Yeah, but even if we don't take healing literally, isn't it a stretch to think being an easy-going friendly person is a form of healing? I did not get he was healing Kal in this scene, more like he was taming the wild beast.... How would healing fit within Adolin's progression? I can see obedience being part of it: it is an easy one. He has struggled with it for two books now, but healing? Healing does imply making others feel better, but it is not quite Adolin...   Being friendly and easy-going means he has the potential to become someone with a healing presence; just like he has the potential of caring deeply about everyone, but isn't quite there yet. Becoming more obedient just doesn't seen right for him. Though the strong case of his intuition doesn't point in favor of Edgedancers.  Intuition sounds like Truthwatchers' thing, like an early form of their foresight. However, Ren did not experience such hunches. I don't think hunches can make someone more obedient, quite the opposite - it gives a reason to go against direct orders. I can't place this ability... if it's to be considered some form of passive ability. May be it's better to discuss what KR Order spren is Adolin's Blade. But all I remember are vines, which brings me back to Edgedancers.     It came for his mother who is either a foreigner or Salash  It could be it is quite unique and there no others like that one in Alethkar. I also tend to think it is not pure hazard he's got this specific plate....  What are the odds of Adolin's Plate being unique or Dalinar never seeing another like it? Adolin having the only Dustbringer's Plate laying around? Dalinar's inner dialogue didn't sound like it's usual to see Plates that look alike, that's why the WoB on it surprises me.Â
Guest Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I imagine Edgedancers like that: looking chill and relaxed, care-free on the outside, but being very different when you get to know one of them.  Good one. That is so Adolin: looking spoiled and arrogant on the outside, being kind and caring on this inside.   Windrunners break the law when they don't consider it right according to Syl and Kal's prison conversation; Jasnah has broken the law; Shallan has broken the law... Overall the law doesn't seem very popular among the Radiants. Since 'I will follow the law above all else' is Skybreakers' second oath, there can't be a case of bending the law without killing one's spren, so Skybreakers aren't allowed to bend the law.  Yeah but there is breaking the law and breaking the law... None of the above have suffered legal consequences for breaking the law and none have been so bold as to murder someone important.   Being friendly and easy-going means he has the potential to become someone with a healing presence; just like he has the potential of caring deeply about everyone, but isn't quite there yet. Becoming more obedient just doesn't seen right for him. Though the strong case of his intuition doesn't point in favor of Edgedancers. Intuition sounds like Truthwatchers' thing, like an early form of their foresight. However, Ren did not experience such hunches. I don't think hunches can make someone more obedient, quite the opposite - it gives a reason to go against direct orders. I can't place this ability... if it's to be considered some form of passive ability. May be it's better to discuss what KR Order spren is Adolin's Blade. But all I remember are vines, which brings me back to Edgedancers.  Yeah but for someone having the surge of Progression, I would think healing have to be linked to healing... Progression does enable traditional healing, therefore if Adolin does become an Edgedancer: he will learn how to heal and it does not seem within character.  I think the first attribute is what makes one a Radiant. The second is what makes them efficient, but they have to learn to master it, through their oaths.  Adolin's intuition is tightly linked to his impulsion to do what feels right. He senses when someone is hiding something and he has a strong incentive to do the "right" thing. When Kaladin asks him why he sat in prison for him, he answers "because was not right to have him be there". It seems like he genuinely wants to do his best to correct the wrongs by doing the right, no matter the consequences. I tend to see it as a form of bravery, but based on your argumentation, I guess it could be seen as a form of healing... Fixing things. I still cannot shake out of my head Adolin would be better suited to work with the surge of Division then the surge of Progression.  His Blade is a hard one... The fact it dismisses like shredding vines is similar to Windle's appearances. The crystals though do not bear any link towards what we know of Edgedancers. I cannot see any link with the Dustbringers either, but evidence is quite slim when it comes to identifying which order his Blade belongs too, which is why I tend to remain open-minded.   What are the odds of Adolin's Plate being unique or Dalinar never seeing another like it? Adolin having the only Dustbringer's Plate laying around? Dalinar's inner dialogue didn't sound like it's usual to see Plates that look alike, that's why the WoB on it surprises me.  I do not think it is unique, but it could be different countries got hold of plates from different orders? I sincerely doubt Dalinar saw exactly Adolin's plate, but the vision does confirm his plate, at the very least, belonged to a Dustbringer. Now we can wonder as to the significance of Brandon letting that small piece of information go. Why mention it at all if it weren't relevant to something?
Aleksiel Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 His Blade is a hard one... The fact it dismisses like shredding vines is similar to Windle's appearances. The crystals though do not bear any link towards what we know of Edgedancers. I cannot see any link with the Dustbringers either, but evidence is quite slim when it comes to identifying which order his Blade belongs too, which is why I tend to remain open-minded.  Crystals are the ED soulcasting property according to the AA, although Ym's spren was described as growing crystals and I'm inclined to believe he was a Truthwatcher... You're right, it's too soon to say which Order the Blade belonged to.    I do not think it is unique, but it could be different countries got hold of plates from different orders? I sincerely doubt Dalinar saw exactly Adolin's plate, but the vision does confirm his plate, at the very least, belonged to a Dustbringer. Now we can wonder as to the significance of Brandon letting that small piece of information go. Why mention it at all if it weren't relevant to something?  It tells us DB broke their oaths, DB likely had squires, Dalinar hadn't seen in his visions any other Plate resembling another he's seen in his life, so no DB, WR or SW Plates in Alethkar or with the Parshendi. That's all that comes to my mind for now.
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 By killing Sadeas, Adolin became less obedient, so it's not an act that I perceive as helpful towards his Dustbringer way, however it's quite fitting for the healing done by removing rotten limb that I associate with Edgedancers. I still don't agree bravery was involved, but let's agree to disagree on this one   That IS a very good idea for Edgedancers. And it's also a good argument in favor of this theory. BTW, it's funny but with the way Edgedancers seem to be defined by now (both by their oaths and by our assumptions) Lirin would make a good one (caring for everyone especially for the forgotten, caring and healing etc.). I'm sure he won't be a Radiant but it's funny that he posseses so many of those qualities   Now, I understand why you think Adolin could become a Dustbringer and I agree. However, there's an arguably equal chance of him becoming an Edgedancer, so I want to show the arguments in favor of this. Since I'm inclined to believe Adolin will revive his Blade that has vines, I'm in the Edgedancer camp. If he is to attract a spren, then there are several options of Orders we know too little to speculate. However, I don't think attracting a spren is the natural progression of Adolin's character, otherwise he's the same as his brother and father. Reviving a Blade is so much cooler and would make him unique.  There are many arguments in favor of both Orders... I also really hope that he will revive his Blade because merely attracting a spren is getting boring But is there any guarantee that his Blade is really that of an Edgedancer? Vines are a clue, that's true, but we can't know for sure if it really matters. Now, I may not remember correctly, but didn't one Blade described in the books have a wave-like motif? I don't recall any Order having anything to do with water (basing on their connection to the ten essences - none of them mentions water). Besides if we think of the essences, "wood, plants, moss" is actually associated with Truthwatchers, while for Edgedancers it's "quartz, glass, crystal". Though it doesn't make much sense when we consider Wyndle...   I tend to think the Releasers were widely misunderstood and that whoever wrote Words of Radiance remembered what he wanted... I mean, they have "bravery" as their first attribute, how it is people who are inherently brave be despised? They must have won countless of battles, saving countless of life while risking theirs... I just cannot fathom none of them came out as being true heroes. However I do think there is a strong chance the order was tainted by the bad behavior of some individual who went rogue.  Wasn't it said in WoR in the excerpt from in-world Words of Radiance that they were misunderstood? I think it did. If they tried to distance themselves from the unflattering public opinion about themselves (even by using a different name for the Order) then they couldn't have been so rude, right?   He does fit within refined, eloquent and deadly, but Edgedancers sound more easy going, less duty oriented then Adolin who lives and breaths to see his family safe and protected. He keeps saying all he wants is an easy-going life filled with duels, wine and pretty girls, but when put against reality, he chooses duty first. Edgedancers seem too frivolous for Adolin.... but again, you make a good point. I am torn over this one.   I imagine Edgedancers like that: looking chill and relaxed, care-free on the outside, but being very different when you get to know one of them. Maybe it's not much of an evidence, but shouldn't we remember that Lift is a confirmed Edgedancer? And she is exactly easy-going, frivolous, chill and not much concerned with bigger matters. I know she's very young and will propably become more focused or serious as she grows up (if she meets and spends time with the other Radiants, because on her own I think she's going to remain more or less the way she is), but still it's rather the defining part of her personality.  In fact, I believe that Adolin has potential to fit in both Orders - the Edgedancers and the Dustbringers. The evidence is strong in both cases which makes it the more interesting to discuss  Personally, I see him as our Releaser but I see why he may be considered to be an Edgedancer. But as I said earlier in this thread, I believe we are going to see only one Radiant of every Order (at least in the first 5 books), so since Lift is the Edgedancer, Adolin would propably be the Dustbringer (on the other note, do we have any other possible Dustbringers? ones that would actually make sense in this case).  As for the Sadeas' murder part, we have WoB that Willshapers would take him (but I don't think he could be one of those) and I think we can be sure that Dustbringers would accept it as well (I'm not sure if it's officially confirmed or just it simply makes sense). I think one way to help solve the Edgedancer vs Dustbringer discussion is to ask Brandon whether or not Edgedancers would accept what Adolin did
Aleksiel Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014  But is there any guarantee that his Blade is really that of an Edgedancer? Vines are a clue, that's true, but we can't know for sure if it really matters. Now, I may not remember correctly, but didn't one Blade described in the books have a wave-like motif? I don't recall any Order having anything to do with water (basing on their connection to the ten essences - none of them mentions water). Besides if we think of the essences, "wood, plants, moss" is actually associated with Truthwatchers, while for Edgedancers it's "quartz, glass, crystal". Though it doesn't make much sense when we consider Wyndle...  Waves could point towards Lightweavers or Truthwatchers since they share Illumination. It could be Stonewards since water has cohesion properties and tension. Or Willshaper's, because it looks cool/odd. I don't know  I don't even remember a Blade with waves. On the TW and ED essences, someone (I think Moogle) made a theory the sections are under the wrong Order and should be switched. After all, the AA is an in-world creation that could have mistakes.   Maybe it's not much of an evidence, but shouldn't we remember that Lift is a confirmed Edgedancer? And she is exactly easy-going, frivolous, chill and not much concerned with bigger matters. I know she's very young and will propably become more focused or serious as she grows up (if she meets and spends time with the other Radiants, because on her own I think she's going to remain more or less the way she is), but still it's rather the defining part of her personality.  Yes, Lift is not concerned about bigger issues and Nalan confirmed that's typical about her Order. Adolin isn't concerned about the biggest issues either. Sure, he cares about his family, but he doesn't share Dalinar's passion about the faith of Aethkar or Roshar. Of course, he doesn't want them destroyed, but he doesn't spend time thinking about the bigger picture. He's not really looking forward being a Highprince. He'd prefer to just duel and wasn't keen on being a soldier.  His sense of duty begins and ends with his family and men, which fits Nalan's descriptions. Of course, we don't know if Releasers are concerned about larger than life issues...     In fact, I believe that Adolin has potential to fit in both Orders - the Edgedancers and the Dustbringers. The evidence is strong in both cases which makes it the more interesting to discuss  Personally, I see him as our Releaser but I see why he may be considered to be an Edgedancer. But as I said earlier in this thread, I believe we are going to see only one Radiant of every Order (at least in the first 5 books), so since Lift is the Edgedancer, Adolin would propably be the Dustbringer (on the other note, do we have any other possible Dustbringers? ones that would actually make sense in this case).  I don't know why you (and anyone else) get that sense of one Radiant per Order. Pattern said several spren peoples were all bonded before the Recreanse, and very few like the Stromfather survived. I expect to not see all Orders in the first five books and other Orders to have several members. There is WoB Kaladin has met two Lightweavers, and Hoid doesn't count as a member of the Order despite being able to Lightweave.
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I don't know why you (and anyone else) get that sense of one Radiant per Order. Pattern said several spren peoples were all bonded before the Recreanse, and very few like the Stromfather survived. I expect to not see all Orders in the first five books and other Orders to have several members. There is WoB Kaladin has met two Lightweavers, and Hoid doesn't count as a member of the Order despite being able to Lightweave. Â It would just make sense in my eyes - to have one representant for every Order in the first five books and more in the back five, possibly trained and lead by those first ones (except for Bondsmiths, I don't really expect more of them). Besides there was that one death rattle (that I doubt I can find right now) saying something about 10 people standing united against the enemy and it's believed to be about the new Radiants... I don't know for sure, it's just the feeling I have Besides one WoB confirmed that we have seen all potential Radiants already, so if there are going to be multiple from one Order we have seen them already. I believe we may have seen the whole 10, but more? I'm not sure I could find candidates for it... Â I saw this WoB and I don't remember it word for word but I thought it was about the ability to Lightweave not exactly the order, besides it could have been a proto-Radiant who didn't have a chance to really join them (like Ym - he was a Truthwatcher but he died and now the only Truthwatcher we have is Renarin). There is a theory that Tien have been a proto-Lightweaver which I agree with but it's not very sure...
lol_king he/him Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I think a lot of people are arguing for Adolin being a Dustbringer just because it would be cool and he's a fighter and Dustbringer is the most destructive order. But i would like to point out that surges don't define the order attributes do, or Kal would be an Edgedancer, because he does a lot of healing. And even for his fighting skills edgedancer suits him better as edgedancers are defined as graceful and deadly which would make him a much much deadlier swordsman, while Dustbringers seem like people who just blow things up. And he shares another thing with lift that he's not a complex character, he's not hard to read, he just wants to do the right thing, and dedicated to only what he likes - dueling (for lift it's food of course). He doesn't have a dark side. He did murder sadeas, but for now we don't know how that will affect him, he was doing the right thing after all. Dalinar, kaladin, jasnah, shallan all have that darkness built into their character, even Renarin gives me that vibe. Of course he won't be exactly like lift because radiants are still people. As for Dustbringer attributes fitting him they would fit almost any of the main characters, even shallan as much as Adolin. And for me the bravest character is Kaladin, and most obedient szeth (who i think fits Dustbringers better).
Aleksiel Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) It would just make sense in my eyes - to have one representant for every Order in the first five books and more in the back five, possibly trained and lead by those first ones (except for Bondsmiths, I don't really expect more of them). Besides there was that one death rattle (that I doubt I can find right now) saying something about 10 people standing united against the enemy and it's believed to be about the new Radiants... I don't know for sure, it's just the feeling I have Besides one WoB confirmed that we have seen all potential Radiants already, so if there are going to be multiple from one Order we have seen them already. I believe we may have seen the whole 10, but more? I'm not sure I could find candidates for it... Â I saw this WoB and I don't remember it word for word but I thought it was about the ability to Lightweave not exactly the order, besides it could have been a proto-Radiant who didn't have a chance to really join them (like Ym - he was a Truthwatcher but he died and now the only Truthwatcher we have is Renarin). There is a theory that Tien have been a proto-Lightweaver which I agree with but it's not very sure... Â One WoB says Kaladin has met two Lightweavers (which means lightweaving the power doesn't count since bothRenarin and Hoid can do it along with Shallan) and another says we haven't seen another Lightweaver in the meaning of member of the Order, so it must be someone from Kal's past. Whether or not seeing someone in a flashback counts is an open discussion. Where's the WoB on us seeing all potential Radiants? Never seen it, but it's really hard to keep up with all of them. I'll be a little disappointed if no future characters become surgebinders.... Edited October 29, 2014 by Aleksiel
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014  Where's the WoB on us seeing all potential Radiants? Never seen it, but it's really hard to keep up with all of them. I'll be a little disappointed if no future characters become surgebinders....  It's this one:  Q: Have we seen a Knight of all of the Orders yet? A: You have not seen a Knight of all of the orders yet I don't believe. Q: Even one that doesn't have a spren yet? A: I think you have met everybody. I even managed to find it In meantime I even found the one about Lightweavers:  Q: Have we seen another Lightweaver as of WoR? A: Yes, depending on your definition. You could make the argument, the Order of Knight Radiant, no. But you have seen people lightweaving, the skill, yes. So it can reference Hoid using the power of lightweaving (or someone else not necessarily a Radiant), at least that's how I see it.
Aleksiel Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) It's this one: I even managed to find it In meantime I even found the one about Lightweavers: So it can reference Hoid using the power of lightweaving (or someone else not necessarily a Radiant), at least that's how I see it.  Hm, he thinks, but that could change. There goes my theory of Tarah the Lightweaver. ..  And I wanted there to be some random surgebinder we never heard of. Meh, I'll live with it. Hm, although it could mean we'll see people who won't make it all the way to being KR, which does not exclude new unknown surgebinders... I'll stop over-analyzing now   Thanks for the quote!  The last one is probably Hoid (he lightweaved the smoke I believe), yet that's a different WoB than the other two I pointed; there's still room for a Lightweaver in Kal's past. If Kal knows 2 LW in the meaning of people able to lightweave, that's false because he knows 3: Renarin, Hoid and Shallan (the WoB about 2 is post-WoR, so Ren counts). Therefor Brandon must have meant Kal knowing two people that belong to the LW Order. Edited October 29, 2014 by Aleksiel
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