theory The wave-like nature of investiture and Investiture as a fundamental force

[sprocket]

So I was rereading The Final Empire and something occurred to me during the scene when Marsh teaches Vin tips on bronze. 

 

Full disclaimer, I haven't spent nearly enough time thinking this over so it might be shaky; I just thought it was interesting. 

 

Firstly, some things that we know:

• Using Allomancy produces waves that can be sensed by those burning bronze
• These waves have varying "pulse lengths" and an experienced Seeker can differentiate the metal being burned based on this
• These waves can vary in strength as well (this seems to be implied when Vin describes pewter as "a bold beat, and quick"). 
• Copper makes these these pulses essentially undetectable within a given radius 
• The enhancement metals can nullify or enhance the affects of Allomancy  

 

The first three facts make Allomancy seem suspiciously similar to electromagnetic radiation. There appears to be an Allomantic "spectrum" which Seekers can detect, and the nature of these Allomantic waves is defined by pulse length (wave length) and strength (amplitude of the wave). 

 

So my guess is that these waves are not simply a byproduct of Allomancy, but the actual investiture itself propagating through some realmatic field. Viewed in this way, some things begin to make sense. For example, we know that metals themselves do not fuel Allomancy directly, but act as a "catalyst". The mists (raw gaseous investiture, the body of Preservation) fuel Allomancy externally. This can be viewed like white light (investiture) being filtered into one specific wavelength or color (the Allomantic effect). 

 

This also gives some insight into how the enhancement metals may work on a realmatic level. Waves can interfere with each other constructively (peaks meet peaks and troughs meet troughs) when two waves are in phase, creating a stronger resultant wave. Or alternatively they can interfere destructively and cancel out (peaks meet toughs and vice versa). So Duralumin for example, may simply be producing a wave that constructively interferes with another Allomantic wave, making a wave with greater amplitude and consequently greater strength. 

 

On a similar note, this explains how copper clouds can be pierced. If copper is exploiting destructive interference to cancel out bronze waves, then it is to be expected that any bronze wave with a great enough amplitude will not be canceled out entirely (specifically any amplitude greater than that of the copper wave). 

 

*Takes long breath*

 

So, I'm sure this has to be at least somewhat intentional, Brandon does like to make his magic grounded in physics (maybe not to this point but such is the role of a sharder). If I'm right this means investiture is a kind of fundamental force in the Cosmere along with gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak forces. It seems to interact with them all in some way as well (similar to the electro-weak interaction). Take surgebinding, you have the surge of gravitation (force of gravity, duh), the surge of illumination (electromagnetism), the surge of division (possibly the weak force).  

 

Additionally investiture does seem to act like radiation in how it reacts with spiritual DNA. Too much of it can damage or mutate your sDNA as seen with savants, and invested objects can alter your spritweb. 

 

That's about all I have, I hope it wasn't too technical or I didn't explain it well enough. I'd love to hear your thoughts

[Voidus]

I have an almost identical headcanon though rather than using colors I tend to imagine it as different polarizations of waves, with the metal, aon, command, fabrial or spren acting as a filter.

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

I really like this theory, it seems very plausible. Good job and have a nice little green arrow 

[sprocket]

I have an almost identical headcanon though rather than using colors I tend to imagine it as different polarizations of waves, with the metal, aon, command, fabrial or spren acting as a filter.

 

Oh man I hadn't considered polarization. I like that idea though, perhaps it relates to which magic system the investiture manifests as. Like one polarization gives you Allomancy, another gives Awakening etc. This is assuming the wavelength-amplitude model I described though. 

[Ari he/him]

It's a theory so good it's already been confirmed by WoB. (He's talked about how Investiture is just an extra force to physics in the cosmere, and that it has its own fundamental particle(s)) Still deserves an upvote for a really elegant explanation though IMO. I especially like your analogy of focusing the investiture from the Mists using will as filtering white light.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ari

[sprocket]

It's a theory so good it's already been confirmed by WoB. (He's talked about how Investiture is just an extra force to physics in the cosmere, and that it has its own fundamental particle(s)) Still deserves an upvote for a really elegant explanation though IMO. I especially like your analogy of focusing the investiture from the Mists using will as filtering white light.

Has it really? Darn, probably should have checked first. Thank you though! I appreciate the feedback.

[Voidus]

It's a theory so good it's already been confirmed by WoB. (He's talked about how Investiture is just an extra force to physics in the cosmere, and that it has its own fundamental particle(s)) Still deserves an upvote for a really elegant explanation though IMO. I especially like your analogy of focusing the investiture from the Mists using will as filtering white light.

I think it's mostly that Investiture travels as a wave that is the theoretical part of it.

 

Oh man I hadn't considered polarization. I like that idea though, perhaps it relates to which magic system the investiture manifests as. Like one polarization gives you Allomancy, another gives Awakening etc. This is assuming the wavelength-amplitude model I described though. 

I think in Awakening that each Command would give a certain polarization to your Breath. In which case I guess the my breath to yours command is just like an unpolarized channel for Investiture to travel through?

For evidence of this being true elsewhere in the cosmere in Elantris the Dor is mentioned as having a pulse or beat. I'll look for exact quotes when I can but there's a few I think.

 

[natc]

The Dor does try to pass through Raoden in bursts rather than continuously, though I'm not sure about a patter.

Stormlight, however, does actually pulse and is incapable of constant illumination even within spheres. It's just more steady than light from flames. How much of it is due to the swirling around in its container though, also not sure.

Then there's the Rhythms, of course. And as seen in WoA (and the overlapping portion of Secret History) Vin detects bronzepulses from cognitive shadows and Shards of Adonalsium (the latter only when their presence is focused on a spot).

Edited March 1, 2016 by natc

[Argent he/him]

I think you are largely correct, at least about the basics. A while back I asked Brandon... something that I can no longer remember... but I was trying to confirm that doing magic in the Cosmere produces waves similar to, say, electromagnetic waves, and Seekers detect those (with different Shards, or probably different magic systems, having different wave signatures), and he mostly confirmed it. I wish I remembered the details though...

[Ari he/him]

I think it's mostly that Investiture travels as a wave that is the theoretical part of it.

 

I think in Awakening that each Command would give a certain polarization to your Breath. In which case I guess the my breath to yours command is just like an unpolarized channel for Investiture to travel through?

For evidence of this being true elsewhere in the cosmere in Elantris the Dor is mentioned as having a pulse or beat. I'll look for exact quotes when I can but there's a few I think.

 

 

Yeah Brandon hasn't talked about wave-particle duality to Investiture at all, so that bit is unconfirmed.

[Oversleep]

*hijacking another Allomantic Signature's thread*

So, any ideas how the copper works?

• it produces a silencing field which silences all Allomantic impulses (including its own). I don't know how to produce a wave complementary to multiple others to perfectly silence them. And I have thought hard. Maybe it's another mechanism.
• It can be pierced with more bronze power. This is strange, as bronze doesn't actually do anything external, just makes you able to hear the pulses

There was also this topic when we discussed "greater metals" Allomantic pattern.

[skaa he/him]

Good job, sprocket! Here's the WoB that I think Ari was referring to:

 

I’m fascinated by quantum mechanics and I have worked them into the way that-- Remember in my worlds, my books, the magics are a new branch of physics, in these worlds.  And so they interact with our normal physics, it’s not like they are ignoring them, so they obey the laws of thermodynamics, even when they appear to be breaking them, and they interact with quantum and all the stuff.  It’s just very natural that they are going to, to me if that makes sense?  It would be weird if they didn’t interact with them.

 

 

That was taken from a Chicago signing last year, which unfortunately has yet to be entered in the Theoryland database.

 

Also, I asked Brandon once about whether there was a quantum of Investiture (the same way a photon is a quantum of light). Here is what he said:

 

Yes, there is a quantum of Investiture, though it acts very oddly in the cosmere.

 

[Bugsy he/him]

I like this theory, I might espouse it in a bit

Polarization could also explain the pushing vs. pulling metals. Also, perhaps these waves interact with the mists (a form of investiture) to cause them to swirl around allomancers.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

I've actually been thinking about this for a couple months now, but I wanted a brush-up on my Physics before 'publishing'.

At the moment I think the push-pull variance has to do with positive or negative Group Velocity of the wave. (look at the second graphic in the link, it's hypnotic )

 

But like I said, I need to brush up on Physics, at the moment I can't honestly say that one thing is represented/determined by the 'envelope' or wavelength or modulation or polarization or something else I don't remember or haven't even heard of yet.

 

edit: It probably doesn't help that I originally learned physics in Dutch.

Edited March 3, 2016 by EagleOfTheForestPath

[Voidus]

*hijacking another Allomantic Signature's thread*

So, any ideas how the copper works?

• it produces a silencing field which silences all Allomantic impulses (including its own). I don't know how to produce a wave complementary to multiple others to perfectly silence them. And I have thought hard. Maybe it's another mechanism.
• It can be pierced with more bronze power. This is strange, as bronze doesn't actually do anything external, just makes you able to hear the pulses

There was also this topic when we discussed "greater metals" Allomantic pattern.

I imagine copper would work by altering the medium through which Investiture-waves travel somehow, like soundproofing a room.

Bronze gives you better hearing so you need more soundproofing to completely block out the noise.

[natc]

The strangeness of that model is that I don't think the area-of-effect actually stops emotional allomancy for anyone but yourself.

Perhaps it just has very extreme fall-off over distance and emotional allomancy is rather "loud"? We know from TLR that it can definitely just punch straight through with enough strength, but is weakened.

Why does an internal metal produce a field like that anyway? Copper is strange . . .

[Mason Wheeler]

I really like this theory, it seems very plausible. Good job and have a nice little green arrow 

Like this?

[ChickenChaser]

*hijacking another Allomantic Signature's thread*

So, any ideas how the copper works?

• it produces a silencing field which silences all Allomantic impulses (including its own). I don't know how to produce a wave complementary to multiple others to perfectly silence them. And I have thought hard. Maybe it's another mechanism.
• It can be pierced with more bronze power. This is strange, as bronze doesn't actually do anything external, just makes you able to hear the pulses

There was also this topic when we discussed "greater metals" Allomantic pattern.

 

Perhaps the wave of a coppercloud is on a wavelength that is not detectable?

 

What I mean is maybe it disrupts the detection of other Allomantic abilities by scrambling the resulting after effects of using Allomancy.

 

Dib your finger in some water. Then, as the wave is travelling, stick your hand in and stir it up. 

[Oversleep]

So Seeker would get a lot of noise. But instead they hear nothing. And with multiple bronze/duralumin they can pierce the cloud and hear normally.

[Jondesu he/him]

So Seeker would get a lot of noise. But instead they hear nothing. And with multiple bronze/duralumin they can pierce the cloud and hear normally.

Maybe it mimics the natural "background Investiture" they would normally hear, which is why it sounds silent. It'd be like static over a radio, which would be the equivalent of silence in that scenario.

jW

[Oversleep]

Maybe it mimics the natural "background Investiture" they would normally hear, which is why it sounds silent. It'd be like static over a radio, which would be the equivalent of silence in that scenario.

jW

Oooh, I had this theory some time ago. Upvote for you.

I still don't get how stronger bronze let's "pierce" Copperclouds. If there is nothing to be heard, then it doesn't matter how good is your hearing.

[Jondesu he/him]

Oooh, I had this theory some time ago. Upvote for you.

I still don't get how stronger bronze let's "pierce" Copperclouds. If there is nothing to be heard, then it doesn't matter how good is your hearing.

If it's like the static, maybe they can hear the sounds that would be masked by the static to a less sensitive ear. I can sometimes make out a bit of a radio station that's close on the dial when someone else would only hear static. It could be something like that (I'm no scientist, so I'm not sure the mechanisms behind that kind of approach).

jW

[18th Shard he/him]

What does frequency of the wave do? Maybe that relates to one's strength.