Mistdork

Just because he doesn't look old doesn't make it any less squicky...(though if we're shipping grumpy scholar-types...)*flees* But if we're going to do silly pairings, I'll ship NightbloodxSyl; or Sylblood. And for a silly theory, the kendra is a magical fish. Hehe.

Never read O.S. Card's acknowledgments/forewords in his books...bleh. Talk about being slightly obnoxious (I'm thinking mostly about Ender's Game). And no, I have a tendency to skip them these days, though...

Oi, this thread proves one theory at least, the mods are the Heralds...oh dear me. Also, could a possible "fix" be changing the Q/A system questions and answers used inn the registration process? I've seen this used on another forum, and it helped for a little while..

As long as the person is writing a story I'm interested in, writes well, and writes in a style I like; I'll read them. Gender doesn't matter, though, if I see the word romance, I'm pretty likely to flee. Not into romances, even if there's no love-triangle to speak of... Hmmm, I like Elantris' cover, but anyway... Generally speaking, more men write and get published than women in fantasy, so there's bound to be a larger pool of good male authors than female authors. In fanfiction, it's the opposite. So, yeah, definitely a demographic issue, and that perhaps, publishers (still) think that a man writing a fantasy book will be able to sell it to his supposedly male audience. That this view doesn't fit with the times goes without saying though...

Except if you go with Slim-E. Like a Slim covered 'E'... Despite the obvious bad pun, I didn't bother with the Slimey-E...since numbers. Since, I didn't think the mirror was that...obvious, I went with the double pun...Kas-mir: (Also, thought about doing Nightmare before Christmas, but then I don't know how many people know it anymore...) And, then, Sly-Smiley-10Cube? I guess??? I just do the pictures, not the jokes. I'm bad with puns.

According to this: source It's possible to Awaken with a Divine Breath, but one could assume that Awakening would be stronger (due to size of that Breath) due to the relative size of that Splinter compare to normal Breath. It would still be stupid to do so, since, you know instant-death for the Returned and all. Furthermore, I don't think we know exactly what would happen if a Returned gave all their Breath (including their Divine Breath) away...we only really know what happens when they heal someone, not what happens when they do something else...

Don't forget that the reason Sazed could not heal Vin and Elend was that he didn't have the skill to do so, while Nalan knew what he was doing (being millennia old can be helpful in figuring stuff like this out). Endowment Returns dead people. So, it was not just a matter of time, it was also a matter of skill...if Sazed had known how to heal them, he could have done so eventually...

If they ever chose a woman, she should be a ginger. That way, at least the Doctor is finally a ginger...even if it means she has to...well...you know. Get use to being a woman...

Oi, too bad, this was an interesting topic...ah, the things I mess because I jumped off the bandwagon for a month or two... I was tempted to see if you could do it with my user name (without going for the obvious imp/nymph jokes)... Actually, though, I could be of service, I do know my way around photoshop, but I don't really have a head for puns...(give me a pun or a design and I can do some snazzy stuff though). So, if you're willing to take the offer, I could help...

Hmmm, when Endowment...endows...he's investing people with a little bit of his Intent/Ideal. Breath can be given to others because it fits this picture of endowing; when I endow, I give you something of value. In the case of BioChromatics, when I give you my Breath, I am giving you part of my innate Investiture. When Endowment Invested in Nalthis, it Endowed/Invested/gave the people of Nalthis Breath because this fits in with Endowment's Ideal. Endowment gives stuff a way to others, thus, it's investiture is based on giving things a way (in the most simple sense, though it's more complicated than that). You could say, simply, that Investiture's different wavelengths are based on different Ideals (Honor, Ruin, etc); that is basically what the Q and A Kuristan quoted is about. Different Shardic Intents are essentially the expression of these Ideals; so Endowment gives away because that is the expression of his Ideal...

That is essentially what could not leave well enough alone means...Anyway, back to the issue of Returned as Cognitive Shadows. This is true to an extent, actually. Before a person Returns, they must first die...and then have a chat with Endowment about their future (if they're given the choice). In this period, they would technically be a Cognitive Shadow, and if they choose to Return, they would be "bound" with a Divine Breath and put back into their body. Technically at this point, they would no longer be considered a Cognitive Shadow because they have a physical form and a new Spiritual Construct (soul; mainly in the form of the Divine Breath)...thus existing in all three realms. A Cognitive Shadow only has a small physical presence at most, and possibly a small spiritual presence. This means that Returned can't be Shadows, however they were shadows for a short time...

Originally, this was going to be more world-hopping based, but I lost some stuff and this turned into a topic on realmatic transportation (physical to cognitive) hopping instead. It’s not a theory, though this is probably not the best topic to dabble in lightly; unfortunately, I was a little bored, it was late, and I wanted tea. So forgive me if my thoughts are not well-explained or if it seems to just go on and on about rabbits…What I’m saying is that I expect to be shot down by the self-proclaimed real experts on Realmatic Theory. Well, at least I tried? Heh, I just hope no one stole my thunder…but anyways, enough of my blab… Geronomo! --- First though, I want to bring up Aon Rao. As we know, the shape of Elantris and the landscape around it is based on this Aon and creates Elantrians and allows them access to that magic. But at the heart of this giant Aon, is the pool or the "dot" in the middle of Rao. This Aon Rao can be seen as a gateway, one that allows Investiture in from the Spiritual Realm into the physical realm; or a place where Investiture is moving from a place of “high spiritual pressure to a place of lower pressure.” A giant Aon, perhaps even (in some way) a giant Seon, though for this topic, it doesn’t particularly matter if the pool we are dealing with is a splinterpool or a shardpool. It only matters that it’s a big gateway. What really matters is this: when one draws an Aon, when one uses stormlight, when one burns metal, et al.; one opens a gateway for Investiture to flow through. Notably, the pool in Elantris is at the certain of an incredibly large and powerful Aon that continuously draws in Investiture. It operates as a gateway, but as anyone can tell you, gateways can be entered through both ways. If one opens a big enough gateway (and maintains it), one should be able to go through it. Essentially, this means that a big enough gateway can be used by a person just as a big enough gateway let’s in a lot of Investiture. Pools, like the one at the center of the giant Aon Rao, are this, but I think is easier to see with Aon Rao because we already know what Aons do. Aons let Investiture into the physical realm, and should also be able (if they’re big enough) to let physical beings out. This means, that if something opens a gateway (or uses Investiture), it opens a gateway for a person to go through, allowing for further realmatic shenanigans on the other side. No, this point doesn’t explain how world hopping is conducted (when we see Elsecalling in action, I think we might have a better idea), but it does explain how someone can enter the cognitive and possibly the spiritual realms. I’m not proposing that this idea is revolutionary (I’m sure someone brought it up before me). Instead: I’m only proposing that the Pool on Elantris reveals that this pool exists in that particular spot because of the giant Aon Rao, and this giant Aon Rao draws on AonDor in such a way that it opens a gigantic gateway between realms. Essentially, all you need is a big enough gateway…and the ability to open it (except, perhaps, if someone did it for you…) for realmatic transportation, however, I will say that this only for certain worlds and really only a basic idea. I’m not doing application, only proposing that by opening gateways for Investiture to seep through (like the giant Aon Rao, but it should work on a smaller scale, like with Soulcasters and Elsecallers, though not quite in the same way), one can enter another realm and eventually worldhop. (That’s the best I could come up, and yes, I probably did not hit the dot. Just don’t kill me, this is still my first topic…)Originally, this was going to be more world-hopping based, but I lost some stuff and this turned into a topic on realmatic transportation (physical to cognitive) hopping instead. It’s not a theory, though this is probably not the best topic to dabble in lightly; unfortunately, I was a little bored, it was late, and I wanted tea. So forgive me if my thoughts are not well-explained or if it seems to just go on and on about rabbits…What I’m saying is that I expect to be shot down by the self-proclaimed experts on Realmatic Theory. Well, at least I tried? Heh, I just hope no one stole my thunder…but anyways, enough of my blab… Geronomo! First though, I want to bring up Aon Rao. As we know, the shape of Elantris and the landscape around it is based on this Aon and creates Elantrians and allows them access to that magic. But at the heart of this giant Aon, is the pool or the "dot" in the middle of Rao. This Aon Rao can be seen as a gateway, one that allows Investiture in from the Spiritual Realm into the physical realm; or a place where Investiture is moving from a place of “high spiritual pressure to a place of lower pressure.” A giant Aon, perhaps even (in some way) a giant Seon, though for this topic, it doesn’t particularly matter if the pool we are dealing with is a splinterpool or a shardpool. It only matters that it’s a big gateway. What really matters is this: when one draws an Aon, when one uses stormlight, when one burns metal, et al.; one opens a gateway for Investiture to flow through. Notably, the pool in Elantris is at the certain of an incredibly large and powerful Aon that continuously draws in Investiture. It operates as a gateway, but as anyone can tell you, gateways can be entered through both ways. If one opens a big enough gateway (and maintains it), one should be able to go through it. Essentially, this means that a big enough gateway can be used by a person just as a big enough gateway let’s in a lot of Investiture. Pools, like the one at the center of the giant Aon Rao, are this, but I think is easier to see with Aon Rao because we already know what Aons do. Aons let Investiture into the physical realm, and should also be able (if they’re big enough) to let physical beings out. This means, that if something opens a gateway (or uses Investiture), it opens a gateway for a person to go through, allowing for further realmatic shenanigans on the other side. No, this point doesn’t explain how world hopping is conducted (when we see Elsecalling in action, I think we might have a better idea), but it does explain how someone can enter the cognitive and possibly the spiritual realms. I’m not proposing that this idea is revolutionary (I’m sure someone brought it up before me). Instead: I’m only proposing that the Pool on Elantris reveals that this pool exists in that particular spot because of the giant Aon Rao, and this giant Aon Rao draws on AonDor in such a way that it opens a gigantic gateway between realms. Essentially, all you need is a big enough gateway…and the ability to open it (except, perhaps, if someone did it for you…) for realmatic transportation, however, I will say that this only for certain worlds and really only a basic idea. I’m not doing application, only proposing that by opening gateways for Investiture to seep through (like the giant Aon Rao, but it should work on a smaller scale, like with Soulcasters and Elsecallers, though not quite in the same way), one can enter another realm and eventually worldhop... --- That’s the best I could come up, and yes, I probably did not hit the dot. Just don’t kill me, this is still my first topic…be nice! I'm gonna sleep now...also, since the Pool is at the center of a giant Aon Rao, I think it might be more of a splinterpool by the time of Elantris...or even the center of a giant "Seon". One might say it's not quite a shardpool..., indeed. Now for some wild speculation (just for fun):

Actually, from my understand, Nightblood was made near the end of the Manywar; not the beginning. He was only used in the last battle of the war when Shashara decided to tell the secret of Nightblood's creation to all of Nalthis. This means that it's more probable that Nightblood was made closer to the beginning...So, by that point, I think that Vasher had a "clearer" idea of what evil might be after seeing that the terrors that war can create (like rape, pillaging, poverty, famine, thievery, citizen deaths caused by total warfare, Lifeless rampaging, Awakening weapons, etc). While evil is less concrete in this sense (you don't see it incarnate in the form of a monster/empire), it doesn't mean that he didn't have a good sense of what he thought evil was by this period. I think your major issue is that why would a scientist think he could directly define evil if his definition of evil should be (based on his circumstances) less concrete... Also, while Vasher is a scientist in a matter of speaking, the science he's studying is by nature less concrete. It's not like physics or chemistry, and arguably, BioChromatics was a very new field at that point. They really didn't understand (as well) how vague that Command would be, but I think that they did have a clear idea of what they believed evil was, even though evil would still be a vague concept to Vasher and Shashara, the war helped to define evil to them. Really though, I think that when Nightblood is release, we might have a better idea of what was going on at this time and why they thought a sword was a "good" choice to combat evil. Though, I think that their vague idea of what evil is really does explain why Nightblood needs someone to define evil for it.

Hmmm, technically Cognitive Shadows are what many people normally think of souls, I think. That is, souls in the Cosmere are spiritual constructs, but in many religions, souls are seen as a thinking being...or rather ghost-like in some way...much like shadows. That's exactly what Returned seem to be given our current knowledge of realmatics.. @Shyguy: The simplest definition for a Cognitive Shadow is that it's a...ghost or a mind that stayed behind in the cognitive realm after it's physical form was killed. The best example of this (out side of Shadows for Silence) is Kelsier, who decided that he can't leave well enough alone and had to stay on Scadrial forever (I guess he had some unfinished business, also it might have had strange/bad cognitive effects if he hadn't stayed, since so many people in Scadrial eventually see him as a god.) Here's a nice WOB on this topic: (source)

But but but, then he could never lament about how often things start with him being put in prison...! Oh wait, that's a different character. I can't see Kaladin being super mopey either...or more depressed than usual. However, other than his SAD, most of his depression so far seemed triggered by events, that is, it was circumstantial instead of clinical depression. Kal's always had a (good or SAD-related) reason for being depressed, so I wouldn't peg it on a different "neurotypical" personality (which, btw, isn't the right term considering that most people will suffer from some kind of depression at some point in their lives). That doesn't mean that bad things won't continue to happen to him, he always seems to have the worst luck...

What about M&Ms? Couldn't we say that the beads are really just sugar-coated M&M's too? Did I seriously just turn Shadesmar into a chocolatey-fairy land... Great, now I see Jasnah and Shallan (and the spren) as chocolate addicts on a high from all the sugary chocolate and skittles they're consuming...Wonderful. What's next, a chocolate stick?

Hoid's a Feruchemist too, but I think an easier explanation could be the "weird factor". Sometimes the human brain doesn't notice something that seems slightly out of the ordinary. Now, onto more important things! Or wait, no, I should go to bed. I can't think straight past midnight.

I hear economics. Oh good, this should be quite fun! Anyway, first I want to address the issue of Jewels. There's one big difference with what Jewels did, there are two major differences between what Jewels did and what the average person selling their Breaths does: First, Jewels was a child when she gave up her Breath. Her Breath was therefore healthier, better, and stronger than an adult's, it was strictly of better quality because it was more vibrant due to her young age. This means that her Breath was worth more than an adult's, and so, selling her Breath brought her family more income. Secondly, Jewels sold her Breath to the God King. She was able to do this because she was a child (they mainly fed him more vibrant Breaths from children) and therefore her Breath was worth more to the gods. When determining the price tag, we have to take into account that she was one of the few children that had this "opportunity". Most children in Hallandren don't give up their Breath to the gods or the God King, meaning that her family was able to earn more in the exchange. So, my point is that while Jewels family was able to afford the cost of food for a year (not the cost of living, necessarily), this doesn't mean that anyone selling their Breath on the street could do so. I also think that some of it is hyperbole, especially the bit about feeding a peasant family for 50 years. I'm not saying that Breath are not worth a lot of money (they obvious are), but I think that using Jewels as a way to calculate the worth of a Breath skews their worth a little bit... It would be better, I think, to say that the average Breath (not one sold to the God King) is worth about the price it takes to feed a peasant family of four for a day. This is more people than the average modern family buying their basket of goods, so that must be taken into account. Secondly, their diet would rarely (if ever) include meats and other things we buy today, meaning that the price of a basket of (nutritious) food of a modern day family and that of a poor "medieval" family living in Hallandren are hardly comparable. It might be better to compare the basket of food that a poor family living in China or a third-world country buys than someone living in Canada, the U.S., or any nation we live in. If say, you earn about $2 a day and (manage) to live off that in a third world country...or say that in Hallandren you earn about $5 (since the country is wealthier) when you have work, than the price of Breath should be anywhere from $550 to $1900 (1) (arguably more if your child gives theirs to the gods)...or the amount to feed a peasant family. The worth depends on how well the economy is doing and other factors, but I think that a more conservative estimate based on PPP in low income countries is probably a more accurate estimate. (1) For other countries that's about £290 to £1100 (GBP); $530 to $2020 (CAD); or €367 to €1396 (Euro). If you want to see this in another currency, just ask... (2) For the math, I simply based the amount earn per-day on a 365-day year and multiplied it by $2 and $5, then subtracted $50 or $100 for other expenses. This is a really bad equation, but I didn't want to do a more detailed estimate since I don't have enough information on their economics...and naturally, I need to sleep.

The obvious answer tonight, eh? I thought you were known for bringing WoBs into everything, this is quite disappointing, but I'm also too lazy to go and get it right now, so someone else can do the deed! (Or I might fetch it tomorrow, I know where it is, but I need some sleep). Anyway, yeah, since they have the Royal Locks, this could mean that the royal family would probably have enough funds to support their two Returned siblings/heirs, they wouldn't need the Cult of the Returned to do so in their case and so Shashara and Denth wouldn't be limited by the cult's rules and restrictions (like Vasher was when he Returned). Their family could just tell them and feed them Breath, it also explains quite nicely why the royal family was so interested in Awakening just before the Manywar broke out... It's funny that Vasher married a princess, though...and is still an usurper. Heh.

I feel utterly foolish for forgetting about Divine Breaths... Though, they always seemed like the odd one out of the splinters that we know about, perhaps another reason (to an extent) is that splinters are given a conscious intent through direction of a Shard (like bonding-spren before Honor splintered), through something like a command (Nightblood) that gives a splintered conscious intent ("human" intervention), or through shard shattering shenanigans. From what I recall, these are the main instances where splinters have developed sentience, perhaps the reason that Divine Breaths are different is that because they are "bonded" to humans in such a integral way those humans direct their intent. While in the other cases sentience develops to direct the splinter's new intent, with Divine Breaths it doesn't happen because human sentience directs and is deeply connected to the splinter... It's like when you leave a shard without a holder. That Shard will develop its own conscious/sentience (if it doesn't/isn't forced to splinter) base on its intent that directs that intent, perhaps one can see the Returned as "miniature" shard holders; like a Shard with a sentient host, they are bound to their splinter's intent. But for some reason, I'm not sure I would see Honorblades as the same kind of splinters as Divine Breaths...or if they (somehow) are, that's rather freaky and would mean disturbing things...

Honorblades don't need the oaths to be wielded. That's a requirement of spren; not Honorblades. What we do know about how Honorblades work is that Shardblades are based on them. Some obvious implications are that they can bond and give their wielder access to surges. However, it may also be that the Heralds when their intents were in line with Honor's intent (before they broke the oathpact) may have kept the ideals in spirit, thus bringing out their blades' full potential. Since it seems awfully odd that Honorblades are so much weaker than Shardblades, it only makes sense that this is because the original wielders aren't using them or aren't keep their oath (or they're so corrupted that these are twisted too much for it to possible...for the moment, at least). Also, Tempus is now officially "Theoryspren". Congratulations! You've received a new level of Sanderfandom! @Tempus: Do we know for certain that splinters always have to be conscious? We see that the Shardblades (that are not "living" spren) are mostly "dead". Couldn't the Honorblades be "dead" in a similar fashion (that is, since the oaths of the Heralds are twisted and/or mostly dead)? What if the Honorblades are like Lerasium... Lerasium is almost a splinter, but not quite (there's a WoB somewhere that says this, but I can't recall where it is ), if the Honorblades are "almost splinters" and somehow can receive an extra boost if a non-twisted Herald is wielding the blades, that could explain the discrepancy in power levels and Honorblade strength. I admit this is a little left field, but there's not much evidence to go on either...

So, THAT's his specialization. I bet Renarin could talk about fabrials all day given the opportunity, Feather, seeing as ASD people seem to find niches like that. Knowing a ton about fabrials and wanting to talk about it fits in quite well...ha, I didn't notice this when reading WoR... What if the box were a kind of fabrial stim toy? (And look, I'm not picking on your fan-ism!)

I'm honestly sure that all the ways people get Investiture are aligned with Shardic/Splinter Intent...Even Spren must have oaths/ideals/truths which their KR must swear to receive Investiture. Swearing oaths is honorable, and arguably, the growth of KR could be seen as Cultivating a bond (but the evidence for that is really sparse). Yes, Honor is splintered, but the system was around before then, and that should mean it still reflects his Intent and, therefore, the way that they get that Investiture reflects it as well (to an extent)... Also, I have more evidence for this. Think about how nobles snapped their kids in Mistborn. They beat them until they snapped, that is, until they were able to preserve themselves, thus again reflecting Preservation's Intent. The way end-positive Investiture seems to work is that those who usually receive it have to be in a situation or even live a life that aligns with the Shard's Intent plus whatever prerequisites might also be required (genetics/geometry/spren-bond). This isn't always the case (you can eat a bead of Lerasium or grab a Honorblade) but for the most part, it is... The only ones I find odd are ChayShan and Forgery. I have no clue how to explain the former, and Forgery seems like a Devotion-based power based on skill (and the devotion a Forger has to their profession), while also not being based in someone (in the same way, though region and genetics still matter). :/

The Shaod, though, is directly related to how Aon Dor works, that though doesn't exclude it from fitting the pattern to some extent. Shaod comes at night, usually to people that show devotion to a particular area in their life. Like Galladeon to his farm, Raoden to his people, or Karata to her daughter and husband (and even Adien to his numbers/figures). All of these people showed an intent that is arguably in-line to the local way to attract the Shaod, and have the genetics to do it too (they all of have some Aonic blood). They also possess the third requirement, that is, they show remarkable devotion to something...and so become Elantrians (as long as certain symbols work). So, from my recent reading of Elantris, it seems like it still fits the pattern. That is, if one looks at this pattern as highly intensified emotion/psychological trauma that breaks through cracks in the soul. My personal belief is that the better an emotion or a person's intent fits with the Intent of the Shard/Splinter, the easier it is for the local Investiture to look through...(if it's end-positive Investiture). However, it's not impossible for other emotions to...unlock the cracks. Like, we know (from WoB) that in Mistborn you can snap without having an emotional experience that causes you to have to "preserve" yourself in a dangerous situation...but it's rare. Usually, the experience of snapping/breaking has to align, often those who snapped in the series had to go through a traumatic situation where they had to preserve themselves somehow. Like Kelsier at the Pits or Vin when she was born. Still, if an emotional high (I mean, positive emotions) can snap you on Scadrial, it might be true elsewhere. I kind of hope we see someone becoming a KR like this just for kicks... I don't recall Returned coming back because of their "guilty conscience". It was often because they did something spectacular (like Lightsong saving his niece, etc), and then came back to possibly change the future that they foresaw thanks to Endowment. This doesn't mean that there wasn't a breaking at some point, but I don't believe that's necessarily the case. Yes, they get a ridiculous amount of Investiture, but it still seems to fit the pattern of end-neutral more than end-positive...at least in how they receive it (since it comes directly from Endowment, maybe they can just break it open because of their shardiness. Who knows...)

Scotch-tape time. Don't forget, scotch tape fixes everything! You know you haven't read enough until that cover's all scotch-taped up! But wow, I don't think I've read any book more than three times...