Mistdork

Couldn't the Kandra female be MeLaan? She's still alive, considering that Alloy of Law occurs after the Stormlight Archive, she could be somewhere on Roshar observing and doing whatever (and she's an agent of Sazed, too). Also, since AoL had to be moved back in the Timeline because of a background conflict of some sort (MeLaan on Roshar, maybe?) this would explain that... Now to find the relevant WoB...meh.

Hallandren 9 Idris 8 Thaylenah 13 Alethkar 10 Herdaz 13 Jah Keved 11 Azir 10 Shinovar 6 The Final Empire 11 Terris 11 AOL Empire/ Elendel Basin 10 Duladel 10 Teod 4 Arelon 8 The Rose Empire 10 Hushlands 5 Nalhalla 8 Fractured States 12 United Isles 10

@TheOnlyJoe (HorseDude): I would argue though, that despite that they call it the Roughs, that the Roughs are probably part of the Basin... Though, I guess, for all we know, Elendel is just a city state that rules over the Basin proper, but isn't technically country. Kind of like how the Italian city states were before the unification of Italy... Hallandren 9 Idris 8 Thaylenah 11 Alethkar 10 Herdaz 10 Jah Keved 11 Azir 10 Shinovar 8 The Final Empire 17 Terris 11 The New Empire 10 Fjorden 1 Duladel 10 Teod 10 Arelon 8 The Rose Empire 10 Hushlands 7 Nalhalla 10 Fractured States 10 United Isles 9

I swear that the name is the Elendel Basin. Since, that's what the world/place map seems to hint at... http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1711-alloy-of-law-map/ Hallandren 9 Idris 10 Thaylenah 12 Alethkar 10 Herdaz 8 Jah Keved 11 Azir 10 Shinovar 8 The Final Empire 16 Terris 11 The New Empire 10 Fjorden 8 Duladel 10 Teod 10 Arelon 8 The Rose Empire 9 Hushlands 7 Nalhalla 10 Newcago 2 Fractured States 10 United Isles 8

Hallandren 9 Idris 10 Thaylenah 11 Alethkar 10 Herdaz 8 Jah Keved 11 Azir 10 Shinovar 8 The Final Empire 14 Terris 11 The New Empire 10 (If it is, I don't think it's the right name for it...) Fjorden 8 Duladel 10 Teod 10 Arelon 10 The Rose Empire 9 Hushlands 7 Nalhalla 10 Newcago 6 Fractured States 10 United Isles 8

So, today's crazy topic is based on creating a Spike Farm that would work economically based on Feruchemical gold/Allomantic gold mining of Allomantic and Feruchemic (or any power you want, if you breed people correctly, want unlimited Breath? JUST FARM IT!) powers using Hemalurgic spikes! The classic "power farm" scenario, but one that considers the economic effects of such farming could have on [future] Scadrial and how one could do it without "upsetting the balance". The discussion is based on the discussion in this topic here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14995-goodreads-qa/page-5#entry169867 And is particularly based on Moogle's last post (quoted for your convenience!) Miles no longer felt pain. Spiking him would only be a minor inconvenience for him, and he could be compensated for his time. (Or, I mean, instead of executing him they could have harvested spikes from him unwillingly. It would end up saving more lives.) Harmony's stated ideology is to allow people to have as much choice as possible, and allowing those born without Allomancy to gain it through hard work (ie. paying loads of cash) seems right up his alley. You'd just have to make sure you don't torture people (Sazed might have issues there) and let economics decide how many spikes exist. A down-on-his-luck Coinshot could just visit his local Hemalurgy store and sign up to be a donor, get spiked a few times and then given a huge paycheck. (Maybe less of a paycheck if he has to pay for his own Feruchemical gold/Allomantic gold spike, but then he'd still be up.) Sazed still doesn't seem quite willing to stop pain and suffering, though. The Set seems to have successfully taken a number of women hostage who will be used as brood mares. You'd think Sazed would be intervening around that point, but it doesn't seem he has except for the barest exertion of power teleporting Wax some guns (which he may or may not have even done). You also wouldn't expect someone holding Ruin to be very focused on stopping pain and destruction... This is probably a conversation for a different thread, though. I enjoy Hemalurgy discussions. As you can see, Moogle threatened to Spike me if I didn't make topic convinced me to start this topic to continue this discussion here. So, here you go guys! Have fun Spiking!

Hmmm, I was under the impression that the problem with worldhopping from and to Sel was related to whatever caused the Chasm line to appear. The Chasm seems like it could have been a long term result of the Shattering of Devotion and Dominion; an event that probably caused a considerable amount of strain on the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms (and probably still does). The Spiritual and Cognitive strain caused by the Shattering of these Shards would have to be expressed in the Physical Realm, and that's why the Chasm may have eventually appeared. So, yeah, its a geographical relationship, but kind of a backwards from what you were thinking (perhaps, etc, I'd be totally willing to talk about this more in a different topic...). Err, my knowledge of Calculus and Linear Algebra doesn't stretch that far, Argent. Could you try a different metaphor? I'm unlikely to understand this topic just with a simple google search...(thanks, btw). Are you suggesting that the Perpendicularity is a place where there's some kind of permanent secondary "vector" (such as the z-axis in your cross product picture) that is formed at this location?

In response to all the spike farmers awesome people talking about infinite power using Hemalurgy and such things: No matter what though, Hemalurgy seems like it would be painful (even when you don't kill the person), and I'm certain that there would be many who would think that creating a farm would be...immoral, to the say the least. Also, considering Harmony's Intent, I think that out-of-control spiking might cause him to send someone to restore the harmony, so...despite that Hemalurgy could be consider OP, so the biggest deterrent for theoretical spike farms might (possibly) be Sazed.

Hmmm, so that means that you could actually create a Mistborn-farm for Hermalurgists if all those Mistborns also happened to be Gold Ferrings. How exciting. *evil grin*

Coinshot 11 Lurcher 14 Tineye 6 Soother 10 Aluminum Gnat 9 Duralumin Gnat 8 Nicroburst 20 Thug 20 So, does this mean that we're spiking the mistings and making Obligators? (I like that idea...)

No, she's Jasnah Jones! She goes on fabulous adventures in search of legendary lost cities and soon, the "holy" soulcaster/dawnshard/thing...! http://exmakina.tumblr.com/post/90134845128/indyjasnah-jones-3-thanks-to-raven-for-the-idea I find the idea that someone can accidentally worldhop rather...fascinating,

As long as you make sure to spike it... I think your safest bet is to not take any of the drinks or snacks offered to you...they're usually Invested in strange ways.

I think to get this to work though, you might need to have some limits on how much a spirit/entity can effect the world without a deal or diagram. It has to be worth it (as in, they get more powerful the more worshipers they have or the more deals that they are able to make)...even spirits have to deal in magical economics!

I'm surprised he didn't RAFO you outright, Weiry... That's why I've begun to mentally list cognitive shadows, spren, seons, skaz, and Nightblood as cognitive entities that can be differentiated according to world and the effects the local Shards/Investiture have on them. On Roshar, one could expect a cognitive entity (especially one that has a Splinter and a whole lot of religious belief behind it) to act like a spren due to the presence of Cultivation cultivating ideas...even if it's technically not a cognitive transformative entity.

I really want to say that it's coming out next year...but with all the Stormlight he's been...reading...I feel that it might be later (it's like he's cheating on Rithmatist and Shadows of Self with the Stormlight Archive! Oh noes! I just shipped Brandon with his books!)

I never claim that this was the case though, only that the clue was related to an Aon Raoden has misinterpreted (thus why this topic contains a lot of stuff about Aons, since that's where we're starting from). However, I'm no longer sure if this clue will tell us how it works cosmere-wide or if its more related to how Aons (or the Dor) on Elantris allow worldhopping. While we can expect it to have some similarity to these methods, these methods might seem quite different until more books are release. It's what happens when computer sciences are applied to magic...if my brother made a magic system, it would be AonDor! ;D Yes, it is weird, but it's so crazy as it sounds... In a way, what a Elantrian does when they draw an Aon is that they're creating a symbol based on their thoughts (this is what I want it to do) in the physical realm... They're also creating a really specific idea (heal this body part; travel this far; bring in AonDor from the Spiritual Realm), and, perhaps the more specific the ideas, the more specific the Aons have to be. In a way, Awakening works similarly, the better the Awakener is at imaging/visualizing his command, the better the command will be performed by the Awakened object...as long as the Command is pretty precise and doesn't lend itself to a meaning that is too complex (for the most part...) However, Aon Ien can also be drawn as a simple Aon without specific modifiers. Raoden did this once (at the party where the old man dies...because of his ineptitude)... However, the Aon was able to heal some, it was just not able to heal well. Meaning that Aon Ien can be used for unspecified healing. How powerful this healing might be hasn't been revealed post-Reod, but it should be quite a bit more powerful than it was. This does mean that even non-modified Aons should result in something happening, though...so, what I think might happen is that it might create a junction because it was not modified or it could be modified to create said junction. (Though, creating/having a bond with an Seon might be important too...) (Also, now that I think about it, it was Raoden that said that the Aon Tae on the stone device they found to enter the place where the pool is located. It could've met "opening" or possibly signalfied a "junction" between the realms...which is a type of opening, I guess! But this seems much to simplestic... D: That is, the Pool is a place where the Cognitive and Physical Realms are close together because the Pool has a stronge presence in both Realms. Meaning, it is an opening just not of the sort that Raoden thought. Now, that's a way that would help explain aspects of worldhopping in every world, though, we've kind of figured that out already...) xD

(This thread is mainly for the discussion of the hint and trying to use it to figure out the Elantris worldhopping puzzle...) I was going to revive the Sel worldhopping topic http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2515-sel-and-worldhopping/ , but since it was last posted in way back in January of 2013, I thought that perhaps it might not be wise... Sometimes necromatic powers don't work that well, I guess (or I need to learn the one-Breath command for Lifeless again)! --- So, a few days ago, Brandon revealed that apparently Raoden had misinterpreted one of the Aons. (source) On page two of this topic, Argent mentions that he thinks that it's related to the Aon Tia, and that Aon Tia doesn't need distance, only a destination. This is based on an old theory of his (one I've read, but, at the moment, can't remember where the link is), and might explain why this is such an important hint and will help us to better understand worldhopping...(and yes, worldhopping might be my major. I have three topics somewhat related to it!) I think that the Aon misinterpreted is either Aon Rao (kind of was the idea behind my one ill-thought out theory a few weeks back) or Aon Tia. Perhaps, even a combination of the two. I agree with Argent that it is probably Aon Tia, though, here are my reasons: 1. Aon Tia is one of the few Aons that Raoden really takes time to interpret/explain to the readers. This is first done in Chapter 25 (343-346) and later on when he travels to rescue Sarene. Both times, he added modifiers that specify location and the person himself. What Raoden says specific is this: The book he was getting this information (on the AonDor) only really gave him hints on what to do and how Aons (like Tia) worked. Now, if it is Tia, it might be just destination that is needed (as Argent suggests), but it might also be modification based. If it's modification based...we have to consider what modifiers Raoden thinks he needs. He thinks he needs one that specified that it only should work on him (which seems right) and distance specification. But, Aon Tia means travel, what would happen if one just drew Aon Tia without a specific destination (where would you go, it seems unlikely to be nowhere), or, if one added different modifiers that programmed Tia to bring one into the Cognitive Realm/Across the Cosmere a certain distance. Really, if one wanted to have fun with Tia, you could even use the distance modifiers to travel LIGHT YEARS, if you could just figure out the correct distance and some other things of the sort! If it is Aon Tia, the modifiers could be another Aon...such as Aon Rao or the Aon related to cognitive things, Aon Mea. However, what ever the specific modifiers would have to be for this to work is still unknown at best, if this is even the one Brandon was talking about... 2. It could also be Aon Rao. However, despite it's prevalence in the book (since Elantris and the surrounding landscape is AonDor), I feel that it's still unlikely. If you can think about it, Raoden doesn't understand it well or how it works though, so there is that, I guess... 3. It could also be the two Aons that are on the device they used to enter the area where the Pool is. However, it's Galladon who sees these Aons (Aon Rao, perhaps, and Aon Tae [352]). The later, Aon Tae, is the one they push to open the "secret" passage. Anyway, while this could be it and Raoden could've misinterpreted what Aon Tae really meant in this instance and what effect it could have on the pool (or even as a modifier of Aon Rao), I don't think this is the secret, and the only reason I even brought it up was because it was related to the Pool... Anyway, those are just some suggestions about what this WoB could mean... Since this was only a clue (and really, one that isn't that obvious...I think), but now, we can prove how good we are at figuring stuff out! I trust that now we can figure this out...perhaps in less than a month!

I'm sorry for the title, I really am, but it had to be done! After I read this today, I said, hey, lookit the PUN I can make! What better way to talk about questions that sprung up from a cognitive heavy reading than to make reference to something to do with conjunctions... (I'm linking the reading here in case anyone's missed it: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance ) --- While I realize that this is not yet quite cannon, I think we can still garner some things from it. According to the above reading, a junction was created when Jasnah did not fully enter the cognitive realm, letting her effectively soulcast but without leaving her stuck. While here she is stuck because her spren (and perhaps him letting her use a ton of Stormlight?) dragged/thrusted her into the Cognitive Realm completely... So, I wanted to ask a few questions (or list my thoughts) related to this, though they're not all related to the Stormlight Archive. 1. Spren are Cognitive Entities [CE] (for this it doesn't really matter what type of CE they are, only that they are a CE). So, would it be possible for other cognitive entities with similar bonds to allow/drag/thrust their bondmates to enter into the Cognitive realm? If this is so, then perhaps spren like beings such as Nightblood, Seons, Skaz, etc (freaky birds go here) could offer a similar function and...help create a junction or help bring someone to the realm. It's a different method than "pool hopping", though, I think that something like Honor's permanent junction might still be necessary to get back in (which is probably his pool)...(though, if the Storms show up in some way in the Realm...but are highly dangerous to use due to their massive level of Investiture) (If the above is true about Nightblood, it could possibly explain how Vasher hopped. Also, a large amount of Breath (like enough to reach the Fifth Heightening, I believe) might too, since that is the same amount of Investiture as in one Divine Breath...this is neither here nor there, though.) 2. In a realm without giant sized splinters (Scandrial), do you think that perhaps Cognitive Shadows (oh yes, I did) which are also CE (just non-transformative entities) could somehow help in the process? Or, if not, perhaps the process there is created by a junction created by the Mists? 3. Should, perhaps, we consider it "junction" hopping (instead of pool) hopping? And do you think that perhaps there's an interesting way to "junction" hop in Elantris? (Like make a junction, go through it, then it closes behind you. Unfortunately, you're now stuck in a really dangerous place filled with cognitive entity monsters and cognitive disasters galore! Errr...never mind, maybe you should just ignore this point!) 4. Profit! 5. Who hopes that junction is not the right term? (Or who thinks I made a really bad pun in my title? I feel clever, though!) Anyway, I just wanted to talk about it. This is a discussion topic, and while things are not concrete, I think that the reading still gives us some really cool hints about how the realms work!

Welcome! Or you sure you're not a stick? I think that you would make a wonderful messianic figure mascot NEW MEMBER for the Church of the Stick. After all, it's in your user name! (Pfft, Voidus, you have to threaten people with stick in their name by Soulcasting them into Fire, not spiking them. I mean, Soulcasting StickofDestiny some jam. Definitely jam, it's completely safe and never poisoned! *poisons jam*)

Except if dragons are shapeshifters...no, that seems to corny (and yes, it has been done before, too). xD

Because a woman never made it writing about dragons. Though, there are still problems with the books she wrote (for the modern-day reader, though, not at the time she was writing), I guess publishing houses have all forgotten about The Dragonriders of Pern, nowadays. But yes, I feel the same way. It's why I posted this topic. It's also, I think, a problem with our society in general, what would people think if a best-selling novel had a female-villain? Would that make the author sexist (if it's a man) or would that somehow derail the feminist movement? "Girls need role models" after all (and so do guys, but this is a trend in reaching girl-audiences), and to make a villain out of a woman would certainly be counter-productive! So, yes, I agree that publishing houses are part of the problem, and probably a lack of female authors too. I once bought a book written by a woman (who writes epic fantasies), but found her work wanting, but that may be because it was more of a romance, and I tend to not like reading books that are overly romantic. I have a low level of tolerance for that sort of thing. But perhaps most female authors feel that is what they can write/publish too... I would like to see more women in epic fantasy (or see Mary Robinette Kowal write something that isn't a fantasy based on Jane Austin/Regency England, especially after reading her short story in Shadows Beneath. I happen to have a problem with historical fiction/fantasy in general, though)... Well, the big-bad of the story is the concept of evil, and an immortal being acting through proxies. Kind of hard to assign mortal genders to it (though they do refer to him as the "father of lies" and "he" pretty often, but I think that's more of a convenience in linguistics than a concession that "he" is male) That and various female villains play the "big bad guy" of certain story arcs, such as the various female members of the forsaken. As far as the WoT story is concerned, this is about the best you can hope for in regards to "villains" actively participating in the story. Having read the Wheel of Time, I do agree with you somewhat, though none of them quite fit. Sure, they were villains of their own arcs, but they were often co-villains with the other Forsaken, and, in some ways, not the most memorable ones either...though they fit better than most sometimes though, I think most of Jordan's women were antagonistic (this excludes Min and Moiraine...to an extent). That was being nice. -- Anyway, I feel like I'm trying to capture the moon, a little. So, since a lot of you are guys, how would you feel about reading a female antagonist/villain (it can be either a downright big bad or not, it really doesn't matter) in this genre? And to everyone else: what do you think would you like to see in a female antagonist? What traits would make her memorable?

I rather hope people don't complain that I'm...errr...complaining...but anyways. On to the show. We all know that Brandon's books (particularly his Cosmere books, I can't address his other books, but I mainly want to talk about epic fantasy anyways) have strong and polarizing female characters. This is wonderful, women like Vin, Jasnah, Shai, and Siri are fine characters, and yes, Shallan is alright too, although she isn't personally my favorite. But, these strong characters are...well...all on the side of "good". It's funny. since, that's what I have a problem with. All the women (generally speaking) are on the side of good. Most of the villains (particularly the major ones) are men/male, and while it might seem odd, I have a bit of a problem with this. It might be due to genre, but I would like to see an intriguing female villain, or even a super-powered one...just because, I can't exactly remember when a female was the "big(ger) bad" of an epic fantasy novel (think Ruin sized, I guess). A part of me finds this...unnerving, strange as that may sound. All I really want to see, though, is a well-written/powerful/cool female villain. So, a few topics of discussion for you guys: 1. Do you feel there's a lack of (well-written/powerful) female villains in epic fantasy, and if so, what do you think contributes to this. (Perhaps I'm not reading the right stuff?) 2. Is this perhaps linked to audience expectations? Why can't women be evil (and "strong") when men can be? 3. Finally, in the Cosmere novels (this is why this post is marked for spoilers) do you think their may be a problem that there really are few (I can only think of that Mistborn-chick in Finale Empire at the moment) female villains? Yes, this what got me thinking about this topic in the first place, and since Brandon often seems to like reversals, I'm a little surprised this is the case... Yes, I kind of realize this topic makes me into a super-feminist weirdo, but yeah. Also, if this needs to be moved, that's fine. I wasn't exactly sure where to put it...