Seloun

From a moral standpoint, I don't. From a plot perspective, it was great. Basically, I can't imagine Kaladin choosing to do the same thing or being okay with it. He makes a big speech about not killing people in the shadows and not killing at all if he can help it. Adolin's actions are in exact contravention. Kaladin seems to be the best example of the 'correct' morality of this series (I don't intend to debate RL morality). i.e. Kaladin disapproves (-5).

We still don't know what happens if the Radiant dies without breaking their oath. Given that the world isn't covered in Shardblades, it seems almost a given that there's either some way to stop being a Radiant/Surgebinder without resulting in dead spren or some way to recycle them. I still feel it's hard to justify the Feverstone Keep vision without the spren somehow being responsible for something; assuming the vision is accurate, a whole lot of Windrunners (among the most honorable individuals on the planet) killed off their spren and walked away without any remorse. I still think bond-farming is a reasonable theory at this point (especially if the bond-farming was _encouraged_ by Tanavast or the Heralds). I concede there isn't a lot of evidence for the spren being ashamed of anything, but, again, if it wasn't something the spren did, why such a brutal method?

I had a similar theory, though it was more about the spren inhabiting the Parshendi providing them their sentience (their bodies are basically shells). This might explain why they're so taboo about touching their dead - each 'dead' Parshendi is actually a potential host. There certainly seems to be some kind of symbiotic relationship between the spren and the Parshendi, anyway. Kaladin has an interesting response to Wit asking about, well, wit, in WoK: Maybe it's literally true for Parshendi.

Hmm, I assumed the interlude is chronologically between part two and three, but the timeline does seem to fit better with Taln arriving around or after the final duel. There's no question that Dalinar bound the shardblade after the duel, but that doesn't necessarily rule out Taln's arrival happening before the duel. Still, that does explain Dalinar's behavior better - I was previously reading it as Dalinar being angry at Kaladin not trusting him to work his way through the problem, and the KR appointment as a way of making Amaram's responsibilities clear-cut.

I think so. Dalinar sets up his test quite early in the book. Look at what he says in Taln's interlude: This occurs in the interlude between part 2 and 3, which occurs right after Szeth's first attack if it's in chronological order. Even if not, this is when Taln first arrives, since it's before Taln goes to the ardents.

Ah, okay. I could believe it's from the spren perspective, which would also explain why Eshonai doesn't show up as one of the ones to watch. It doesn't really sound like one of the secret societies; it seems too specific for the Diagram, and I think it would require the 'us' to be more inclusive than 'we' to have real weight.

I'd personally guess that it'd be almost the entirety of the third book that Kaladin and Shallan will be separated. There's a ton of stuff that needs to happen in Alethkar and I suspect that's where Jasnah will end up as well (simply because there's too many viewpoint locations otherwise). However, being separated probably makes their relationship more likely than not. If they were together, the relationship would likely progress too quickly. Also, it's hard to play the Helaran card if Kaladin is conveniently around to explain his side of the story. A five minute, honest conversation resolves that plotline pretty cold. He has to be out of touch for that to matter from Shallan's perspective. I fully expect that she'll find out shortly after he leaves, and will spend most of the next book gnawing at it. It wouldn't take much beyond a somewhat distorted description from Mraize of what happened with Helaran, a slightly more detailed but biased description of what happened in Sadeas's camp from Gaz, and some buzzing from Pattern about Honorspren to make her feel betrayed by Kaladin. The problem is that none of that really generates a conflict if she doesn't have something invested with Kaladin. Ultimately, that's the bottom line - the narrative demands that she has something invested with Kaladin in order for the 'stumbling blocks' to mean anything. Kaladin has to leave to allow Helaran's death to matter. And since Kaladin has to leave, there's no further opportunities for Shallan and Kaladin to develop a stronger relationship; ergo the chasm scene and hints to a developed relationship. I'm sure Syl will have words with Kaladin in the next book about how she feels about a woman who could bond with a Cryptic, too...so I'm sure Syladin will be a factor (if not necessarily exactly romantically).

This is certainly possible, but it feels strange to me that Graves would be so open about the Diagram but lie about that specific bit. It's possible he's doing some kind of long con on Moash and is trying to justify why Taravangian/other Diagrammies will talk about trying to off Dalinar, but in that case it seems like it would have been easier not to share anything about the Diagram with Moash. Given that there's a lot of debate over how to interpret the Diagram, what Graves says seems perfectly natural taken at face value.

This is probably unlikely. One of the major character development on Kaladin's part (due to Shallan, in fact, in the chasm) is that he's gotten over his lighteyes issues (at least, in a categorical sense). Besides: And lo, he's tried the chasmfiend thing; didn't really work out. Now he can move on!

Couple of observations - 1) Every 0 is preceded by a 1. This seems so unlikely given any nontrivial distribution the two that I think '10' is a single character. Given that there's no '20', one possibility is to break up the sequence unambiguously into values between 2 through 19 inclusive. Note: I tried this with a basic substitution cipher but could not make much headway. However, when broken up into this fashion, every number from 2-19 shows up at least once in the sequence. 2) Every '111' is followed by an even number. 3) 915121 shows up twice.

Lirin doesn't really state that he dislikes the Radiants, just that the Heralds weren't evil: You could easily say the latter description applies to Kaladin...and maybe Lirin will! Note though that Lirin's description is considerably more generous than the way Kaladin puts it, either way. I suspect that Lirin is going to be somewhat a broken man. I believe there was WoB that both of his parents are still alive (maybe?) so I don't expect either of them are dead. Laral is certainly going to be an issue, though given Shallan, Tarah AND Laral I hesitate to contemplate the sheer messiness that may result. I do think Jasnah will be with Kaladin for most of the next book. This is more of a meta analysis, though. In particular we're looking at 3 different locations for PoVs already in the next book with Kaladin/Alethka, Shallan/Dalinar/Adolin/Urithiru, and Szeth/Shin. Having a 4th major PoV location is going to tough to juggle from a pacing perspective, but Jasnah in Urithiru with Shallan makes the Ghostblood angle tough to resolve. It's unlikely Szeth is going to travel with Jasnah (but not impossible; that's the most fascinating choice for PoV if it can be done plausibly). This makes Jasnah travelling with Kaladin probably the most likely option, though it's also possible Jasnah just gets short-shrifted again or bounces around a bit.

Where is that quote from? I can't place it (note: I only have the Kindle edition). It sounds familiar...and I seems to recall that I assumed it was from the Parshendi perspective (note the only missing PoV character of the first half is Estonai). I figure this is another demonstration of Shallan 'buffing' people. Throughout the book Kaladin keeps saying he needs an example of a lighteyes that isn't out to screw him before he's ready to show himself as Radiant (assuming that it will be Dalinar); she's the one that finally breaks him out of that cycle. Dalinar does deliver, but it's a chapter late.

The relevant epigraph appears to be: The 'potent weapon' is almost certainly Szeth. When Graves says 'focused,' I don't think it means that's what his actions are focused on, but that they assumed without Szeth directly involved that there wasn't a possibility of Investure - the 'focus' is the focus on Szeth's actions rather than their own. Graves doesn't do anything special to make sure Kaladin is separated from Dalinar. His assassination attempt certainly doesn't seem to be fake, and he tries the first attempt without any involvement of Kaladin at all. He honestly seems to think killing Elhokar will result in Dalinar allying with Taravangian.

Odium being a good or bad person isn't really the issue with the first - based on the epigraphs of WoR, the Parshendi called upon Odium because they thought they had no choice. Odium being a terrible person doesn't necessarily mean Tanavast's actions were always good. For the second, it seems clear to me that the spren don't really define their characteristic, but are attracted to it. I don't think honorspren can actually interpret honor or have a sense of honor without a human bondmate. I actually think this is the point - I just don't see what else could every Windrunner break their oaths unless they felt they were somehow betrayed by their spren.

Might be reading too much into this, but... during Kaladin's captivity, Dalinar talks about how Roshone got out of control: The hesitation when mentions that he was 'away' implies to me that it was something he's sensitive about or ashamed of. If this is related to his seeking the Old Magic, what would he have gone to ask for? This is shortly after meeting the Parshendi (we know Dalinar was the first to meet with them) but before Gavilar's death.

Graves specifically says he was operating on his own initiative. I assumed that he got the message from Taravangian about the Diagram quotation, but that he'd already been plotting his plan beforehand. In particular Graves makes it pretty clear (at the end, where he's talking about the Diagram to Moash) that he thought Dalinar was supposed to take the throne. The original assassination attempt wasn't related to Kaladin at all. I don't think Graves is saying that he was trying to keep Kaladin away from Szeth; what he's saying is that he didn't think Kaladin would become Radiant if Szeth wasn't involved.

I think it is the Stormfather who accepts the Words, since I suspect initially they were directed to _Tanavast_, and the Stormfather is just the closest equivalent to them. We know Surgebinding (in the form of the Nahel bond) existed before the KR, and one of the thing Ishar set up in forming the knights (or helping to form? Unclear how Nohadon/Ishar relates to KR founding) are apparently restrictions on how the bond could work: I suspect that the Bondsmiths are sort of like judges; they're the ones that (ultimately) adjudicate the precepts and laws. That would explain why Dalinar is bound to the Stormfather - he essentially negotiates the Ideals with the Stormfather. Originally the Bondsmiths would have been linked directly to Tanavast, and that's why it's seditious to try to have a bunch of them running around.

The problem I have with the theory about the orders finding out about the Heralds being the cause of the Recreance is how that alone really changes anything. Even if it turns out the Heralds are complete jerks, why does that make what they're doing any worse? To the point that two hundred of the most honorable individuals in the world would stop protecting people and kill their closest companions, apparently without any remorse (if we can trust Dalinar's vision at Feverstone). My current two theories are: 1) The Radiants learned that the Parshendi are the actual owners of the planet and the humans are the aggressors. In particular, that Tanavast is the aggressor. 2) The spren were intentionally 'breaking' people to bond. We know that a person has to be broken to be able to bond, and we know that the spren in general seem to really like being bound (since it gives them additional capacity); it's short step to farming bonds.

I'm pretty convinced at that point the man really is Nalan. He knows way too much, including about Szeth's own activities, and given that Szeth doesn't have his Honorblade any more it's not clear why he'd absolutely need to use Szeth if he didn't believe at least some of what he was saying. Skybreakers don't have Regrowth as one of their surges, so requiring a fabrial makes perfect sense (this is why the woman in Dalinar's flashback uses the fabrial as well, instead of what Lift does). That said, Szeth is almost certainly being used. I don't think Nalan's goals are aligned with the Radiant Skybreakers (it's worth noting the Heralds are generally not aligned with the Orders; the canon WoR describes Nalan as being the last Herald to accept his order's request to be a sponsor). I fully expect that Szeth will become a Skybreaker - first as part of Nalan's group, but eventually as a Radiant as he realizes what Nalan is doing is wrong (I would imagine Szeth's Second Ideal will be about how and when the law needs to be applied). He's certainly broken enough at this point to bound a spren.

Personally what made it clear to me was the little insult-fest when Kaladin blocks Shallan's entry during the council meeting. It was so tsundere that I could not imagine that going any other way. It was also so out of character for both of them that it was a giant red flag. They make such a scene that everyone is silent and staring at them by the end of the exchange. And during the exchange, Kaladin's own friends are snickering at what Shallan says; I'm pretty sure they would -not- have had that reaction if they didn't see it this way too (if it was random lighteyes insulting Kaladin, I don't think laughter is what you'd get out of them).

Well, the thing is I'm not actually sure I _favor_ Kaladin/Shallan, it's just what the evidence points to right now. My original, original point in this thread was that there's _so_ much evidence for it (if you dig even a little) that I'm almost expecting it to be subverted somehow in the series. If it does get subverted, though, there's going to have to be a lot of ink spilled to justify it given all of the narrative demands. There's a huge amount of evidence for Kaladin/Shallan, but in my opinion the real clincher is how Helaran's killer was dealt with. The story goes out of its way to make sure Shallan doesn't know who the real killer is (as noted before, there are at least 3 occasions in the book if not more for her to learn this) while emphasizing how irrationally angry she gets with Amaram. There's no way that can't have a payoff, and in order for that to have a payoff, 1) Shallan has to be invested in Kaladin in some fashion and 2) Kaladin can't be around to explain what happened in a forthright manner. Now it's possible Shallan can be invested in Kaladin besides in a romantic manner; it's possible just the Radiant connection would be sufficient. But I don't think that would work satisfactorily due to the Radiant organization bond being so new to everyone; no one is quite invested in it yet. Furthermore, it's unlikely to be a bond that will develop beyond WoR, since due to (2), Kaladin is almost certainly going to be out of touch for a while. It's also possible that in the end, things like Helaran's death may result in Shallan/Kaladin's relationship for working out. But the narrative as it stands seems to demand at least they get strongly involved to make Helaran's death meaningful. From a meta perspective, I can't see any other reason why Helaran's death was handled in the way it was.

Wait, really? That makes some of the Parshendi epigraphs really odd, then - they seem to at least have legends of the possibility of 'merging' surgebinding and voidbinding. 9th and 10th stanza of the Song of Spren: If it's really WoB otherwise, someone's been misleading the Parshendi...

It's not impossible, and if the epigraph is actually talking about KR, Renarin is probably the best guess at this point. However, if you examine the other epigraphs from that section of the Diagram, you will note that they're all talking about the Unbound (the sections about one of them probably being a traitor is actually in the same section that describes Moelach's abilities). I believe the current working assumption is that therefore the statement is referring to one of the Unbound, not one of the KR. The Diagram seems to imply that it thinks it's possible the KR wouldn't be refounded. The statement is present-tense, which would be odd in that case.

I actually completely missed that about the horses. Though I thought by the end of Kaladin's horse training session, he'd gotten over any equinophobia: and While the latter still has Kaladin still skeptical, other people seem to think he's doing pretty well (admittedly, it's one of the other people who don't know how to ride). During 'Boots', however, Shallan does seem to think Kaladin still isn't handling his horse very well (right before the quote about being intimidated by them) so I can see the resemblance. It's interesting but doesn't fit the other pattern (where they have exactly opposing perspectives); maybe this means spren don't care about horses...(re-reading 'Monsters', Syl rides by Kaladin on a spren-horse) I went looking for evidence on that: and which seemed promising, but: So probably not. It's too bad, because it would have been pretty hilarious given Adolin's comment.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but who operates the Oathgate in the last chapter? Dalinar sees a group of people coming through the portal as he's about to speak with the Stormfather, but a few minutes later he goes down and sees Shallan and Kaladin idling in the conference room thing at the top of the tower. The very -high- tower. Who else could have operated the gate?