Seloun

Actually, I think it would have felt a little cheap if Jasnah's death was used as more of a plot device. If you pretend instead that she fakes her death in Chapter 7 in a way the audience knows, the rest of the book reads just about right. The possibility is even lampshaded in a couple of places in the book.

Dalinar makes an interesting observation near the end of the book, when he sends Renarin off on an errand: Renarin seems happiest when he's following someone's directions. Besides the obvious Bridge Four scenes, in the scene with him and Shallan when they're trying to figure out the Oathgate, we see him somewhat passively following Shallan's commands. I'm wondering if this is indicative of something systematic (e.g. as Truthwatcher) or just a result of his traumas. I don't recall having that impression about his character in WoK, though this observation didn't really click for me in WoR until Dalinar specifically mentioned it, either.

Those *were* the most memorable parts of their interactions (not a high bar), but I was specifically not counting those as a 'real conversation' (since neither of those are actually directed at Renarin). Going back to re-examine the scene though technically she does ask him to slay a rock and bring his Shardblade to the keyhole (gatehole? oath-hole?). Even then it probably doesn't count since as far as I can tell _Renarin_ never says anything to Shallan (anyone have a counter-example?). - Actually, re-re-reading the scene, Renarin does say to Shallan, 'did that do anything?' and she does respond. So I suppose they do in fact have a conversation. Yes, I enjoy being pedantic.

Those points are actually better in support of Kaladin/Shallan, mostly because they're external factors - they're obstacles that their relationship would have to overcome, making it more meaningful. They have very little internal inconsistencies, where one or the other would have to change in a radical fashion to adapt. Point by point: - Kaladin being away from Shallan in the next book (I predict it will be most of next book) and heading back home probably means he'll get an opportunity to compare Shallan to his other female interests (Laral, Tarah) rather than forgetting about her. Breaking up a relationship couple in plot temporarily is pretty conventional for this reason. Also, absence makes the heart grow fonder. The separation is also necessary to make point number 3 an actual thing (more later). - Syl and Pattern not getting along is _exactly_ the sort of not-really-serious-but-serious tension that tends to drive people together (see: Romeo and Juliet). Forbidden fruit, and all that. This is again another external conflict - it's yet another thing that does not change who either of them are but that they need to overcome. Syl does not like Cryptics, but is grudgingly willing to say they aren't outright _evil_; it'll be an interesting irony to see her be the stereotyping bigot for a change. In fact, this is likely a good lever for Syl's character growth (Sanderson also seems to -really- love ironic echos/ironic foreshadowing; imagine them rehashing the conversation about Dalinar and Lighteyes except with the pronouns substituted and roles reversed). - Helarin's death is clearly being held in reserve for the next book. There are at least three occasions where Shallan could have easily have found out about Kaladin's role if things had been slightly different: Chasm and Kaladin's challenge both have him refer to the incident in a very roundabout manner, and she passes by him just a short period before Dalinar confronts Amaram. The problem is that if she finds out about while Kaladin is there to explain what happened, it becomes a non-story; she has to learn about it in a distorted way while Kaladin isn't available to defend himself for this to -be- an issue. Currently, if Kaladin leaves, it's very easy for her to find out about who killed the Shardbearer (Dalinar, Navani, anyone at the confrontation, which includes Bridge Four and Renarin) but no one knows about the specifics of what happened; Kaladin hasn't related it to anyone and Amaram (who is pretty much the only other living witness) is not likely to offer her the truth of what happened. In fact this is something which would be very easy to put in a bad light by e.g. Mraise or the aforementioned Amaram, but the punch of that goes away if Shallan can just go up to Kaladin and ask what happened. So it has to wait until Kaladin is gone for this to be a Thing. However, the work involved in making this be a Thing means it has to have some payoff; if Shallan doesn't particularly care about Kaladin, this becomes more of a footnote than a Thing. Imagine if Amaram -had- been the one to kill Helarin: in that case, so what? There's no impact since Shallan doesn't really care about Amaram otherwise one way or another.

I was referring to the scene in WoK where Dalinar trades his Shardblade to Sadeas for the bridgemen - the most impactful scene in my opinion thus far in the series.

As far as I know, Kaladin only sent the one letter, which could have been not delivered for any number of reasons. However, it is a little strange that his parents don't try to contact him (at least, none that gets to Kaladin). From a meta perspective though, I don't think it's going to be something like his parents being locked up or otherwise being terrorized by Roshone; at this point Kaladin isn't realistically challenged by any kind of martial pressure Roshone would be able to bring to bear. I have a feeling that we may find that Lirin's been somewhat broken by the loss of Kaladin and Tien (figuratively and literally respectively). I'm sure we'll have a callback to the discussion Lirin and Kaladin had regarding whether it's possible to kill to save people. One of the things that makes Kaladin figuratively shudder during Shallan's history dump is the thought of him having to have been one to brighten his family, rather than Tien; it would be an interesting irony for him to find himself in precisely that situation, especially given that so far he's always been the moody one. I think it's optimistic (or pessimistic, depending on your favor) to say the Kaladin 'slipped away' from a relationship from Shallan. It actually seems most likely to me that the separation is actually to enhance the relationship - that's the most likely explanation I can come up with for why Helaran's killer is hidden from Shallan (and it requires a fair bit of contorting, since there's at least three separate occasions where a small change would have made it clear to Shallan). I assume that she'll learn about it while Kaladin is away, and that'll drive part of her arc. Of course, Shallan and Kaladin having a relationship practically demands Laral to step into the picture somehow (and Tarah the Chekov's Gunwoman). That said, I don't know that Kaladin really ever 'fell' for Laral in any meaningful way; she's just the only girl he interacts with in his childhood.

I'd agree that Adolin probably would be interested in the 'real' Shallan, but he would likely have difficulty relating with her (both due to personal histories and her intelligence). More to the point, I don't think Shallan is actually all that interested in Adolin as he is now, and she seems to have no desire to let him see the 'real' her. Adolin as he is now is just not that complicated. Of course, Sadeas might change that in the near future.

Well, that's just the thing - Adolin and Shallan don't talk about anything of substance. And the fact that she treats Adolin like she treats almost everyone she interacts with is really further support that there's nothing particularly special about their interaction. Her attitude towards Adolin is very calculated - as she is with most people, as noted above. The fact they're comfortable with each other doesn't really mean much - again, that's just how Shallan typically reacts to people (e.g. Gaz). She's nicely manipulative. Conversely, Shallan's behavior towards Kaladin is completely different from how she treats almost everyone else. From the very beginning she's very comfortable abusing him in a tsundere manner (we don't see this with anyone else). She speaks her mind directly to Kaladin and he's about the only person she doesn't try to manipulate. We also have examples of surprisingly flattering descriptions of Kaladin as we get near the end of the book; she blanks out mid-conversation with Adolin as she tries to define just exactly what Kaladin has that Adolin doesn't (which she doesn't care about but is going to wax on for an entire paragraph just so she knows what she doesn't care about...). The fact that Shallan and Kaladin bicker a lot is actually a dead giveaway (Slap-Slap-Kiss-Kiss in trope terms...think Leia and Han Solo). Likewise, Kaladin's interaction with her is unique. He mentions it himself in internal dialogue about how he can't understand why he lets her get to him so much when he can deal with other, much more annoying lighteyes. He spends a _lot_ of time trying to understand her, more than almost any other character we see. Then there's the entire chasm scene, where - among other things - Shallan pretty much single-handedly convinces him that lighteyes are not actually categorically evil (something Syl is unable to do over the course of a book and a half). And look at how he compares Shallan to a well-used spear in the chasm scene; I'm not sure there's anyone else he describes in more flattering terms. He even compares her to _Tien_, favorably. By the end of Book 2, Kaladin likely knows more about Shallan than anyone else on Roshar barring Pattern - more than her siblings, more than Jasnah, and far more than Adolin. He is explicitly interested in her despite (because) knowing so much about her. Conversely, Shallan knows more about Kaladin than anyone else besides Syl (the main players of Bridge Four are perhaps the only possible exceptions, and none of them are really aware of his history before Bridge Four). Her interest is not quite as explicit as Kaladin's but it's so blatant that it's hard to ignore. Again, this doesn't mean this is how things will end up, but there's a ton of stuff there that needs to be addressed, way more than any of the other Shallan relationship possibilities.

I'd say the Chasm scene is probably my favorite scene in the book, though even so it was somewhat up-and-down. While it was still enjoyable, there wasn't anything in WoR that compared to For the bridgemen (my vote for the best scene in the series to date).

I'm not sure if Cryptics have the same regimental advancement thing as some of the other Orders. That said, I don't think the First Ideal necessarily provides Lightweavers access to their Shardblades (perhaps the Second Ideal, which would still be different from Windrunners or at least Kaladin). In particular I was under the impression that Shallan first summons her Shardblade defending against her mother. In WoK she calls the shardblade something like 'the fruits of her most horrific act' or something similar. I figured Shallan spoke her first truth (maybe second, if the Third ideal or equivalent for really necessary for the Shardblade) when her mother attacked - maybe something like 'My mother hates me!'

I was responding to this poll based on the evidence that exists for the different possibilities. Given that perspective, I think Kaladin/Shallan easily has the strongest canon support throughout book 1 and 2. Certainly anything can happen in future books, but from the perspective of what pairing would require the least amount of contortion. Current evidence for Renarin and Shallan is effectively non-existent. I'm not sure they even actually have a real conversation in the book. Adolin's interaction with Shallan is quite shallow. Much of her interaction with him is her lying to him without Adolin realizing it (plenty of examples, but among other things most of her conversation about what's she's doing when she's not with him is a lie). It's hard for me to feel like Adolin actually has feelings for Shallan because he really doesn't know anything about her, just the front she presents to him. Going in reverse, the main things that bring Shallan to Adolin are what he can provide her. There's the lust angle, but that's not much different from her interaction with Kasbal. In fact, Kasbal probably was closer to Shallan than Adolin is at the end of book 2. Meanwhile, Kaladin's interaction with Shallan is basically unique (and vice versa). There's again many examples here, but the chasm scene alone seems like overwhelming evidence in this regard. While none of this is anything like proof about how the series will end, as things stand now, the relationship between Kaladin and Shallan is the one that likely requires the most 'work' to explain away satisfactorily. Adolin/Shallan relationship is actually very fragile given how many secrets Shallan has been keeping from Adolin. Renarin/Shallan isn't even a thing at this point. Shallan/Unknown is obviously difficult to gauge, but there's no indication that there's anyone from her background that might be a relevant choice, mostly limiting possibilities to brand new ones. Basically, if someone (Sanderson) told you now that at the end of the series, Shallan would get together with _X_, the person who would cause the least surprise at this point is probably Kaladin (whether you -prefer- that is of course a separate issue, and not really one that can be debated in any meaningful sense).

Well, it almost feels so obvious that it almost feels more obvious for it -not- to happen. That said, it's set up so well to follow the classic pattern: Kaladin and Shallan has almost no internal conflicts with each other but they have plenty of external barriers: her brother, Honorspren vs. Cryptics, causal with Adolin, Kaladin's travelling to (almost certainly) meet Laral and the mysterious Tarah, Gaz!, etc. They're all serious-but-not-too-serious issues that don't rely on either person having to fundamentally change, making for Drama but with clear resolutions. I don't know that I'd even call this a love triangle, really - I saw nothing that leads me to believe that Shallan actually has any real feelings for Adolin. It's almost completely one-sided. She lies to him about pretty much everything she's doing, and confides in him about pretty much nothing that doesn't further her goals. She helps him out and is nice to him, but that's the case for basically every single person she interacts with (except, notably, Kaladin, who she's perfectly comfortable openly abusing from the very beginning). I don't think she's completely conscious of this, and she certainly finds Adolin physically attractive, but as we see in the book, she's really, really good at ignoring inconvenient truths about herself - in this case, that she's really (mostly) just using Adolin to get what she wants/needs. Her internal monologue about Adolin is primarily about how to manipulate him (her first thought when Adolin gives her the hug after the chasm scene is how it prevents her from delivering a really witty comment). It's really how she interacts with everyone (again, except Kaladin); it's just that her manipulations often leave the other person in a better position. Re-reading that paragraph, it's somewhat amusing how terrible it makes Shallan sound. In a way I think it's perfectly factual without being true, which I suppose is an aptly ironic description of her. It's (obviously!) hard to say for sure how Kaladin is going to proceed, but I have to imagine he'll be dealing rather significantly with his past life in the next book; his trip back home obviously is a set up for that. I also suspect Kaladin and Shallan will have little interaction with each other in the next book, except perhaps near the end, and Kaladin's going to spend a lot of his time comparing his old female friends/associates with Shallan (unintentionally, of course). We don't know much about Tarah, but it's hard to imagine Laral comparing well. I'm sure his mother will remind him of Shallan as well. So a general prediction - Shallan learns about Kaladin's killing Helaran after he leaves, nurses a grudge for the majority of the book (likely helped by Ghostbloods and/or Pattern), maybe some communication confusion over spanreed or something (there must always be communication confusion), funny/sad anecdote from Jasnah about relationships, they meet up near the end with a resolution to this plot point, Shallan speaks a truth for the power-up (the last point might be too corny). Shallan meanwhile doesn't have any more Deep Dark Secrets involving Kaladin (well, that we know of), so he instead spends most of the book comparing every woman he meets with Shallan (heck, probably some men too - in WoR he compares her to Tien, basically top-tier for Kaladin), finds them wanting, maybe bewildered by communication confusion, resolved near the end. At least, that would be formula. Either that, or they find out their mother's are siblings or something (cut the red string). Personally I think I favor this pairing more than the alternatives based on what we've read so far (I'll mention I wasn't really convinced of this pairing in WoK - at least until I read about the Helaran theory); there's so much groundwork done on it at this point that not having a payoff feels a bit cheap. That said, it's probably possible to preserve much of the drama without them being involved in a romantic relationship, just BFFs.

I believe there's several other points that imply that a broken soul is necessary for the bond. One I can think of top of my head is what Syl says (in her semi-coherent state) in 'Bridges' (occurs right before the chasm chapters); Kaladin says he's broken, unlike the heroes of old, and Syl basically tells him that actually they all were broken. This leads to an interesting theory...what if the Recreance was caused by spren _exploiting_ this requirement? What if they were intentionally causing people to 'break' to allow for more bonds? This is based on zero direct evidence, but it's hard to think of something so terrible that you could get every single Windrunner to break their oaths and (assuming the visions are reliable) apparently not even feel bad about it. There is a comment in one of the Diagram epigraphs which implies one of the orders wouldn't have left, because their bond was somehow different, and that the order is hiding out amongst the Shin. This may mean the Stone Shaman are actually full surgebinders (this would certainly explain why Szeth is confident about their ability to retrieve his honorblade). If the Recreance was due to something the spren did, then maybe the difference is what they're bonded to - Stone Shaman sound a lot like Stonewards, who would be Taln's group...and possibly bonded to him? Maybe this is the subterfuge by the 10th order? What if it's not actually the honorblades the spren bonds are replicating, but a bond between humans and Heralds? The Stone Shaman in this case don't trust any other (spren-based) surgebinding since they're not 'pure' bonds; what Szeth might have done is demonstrate proto-Skybreaker surgebinding (assuming that's what he'll be). If the honorblade somehow interrupt spren-based bonds (either priority or something; Kaladin does hold Szeth's honorblade, but it's the one that's aligned with his abilities in the first place) maybe that explains why they kick out Truthless with an Honorblade - which he's not allowed to give up, since doing so might allow him to progress in along his Nahel bond. He's not allowed to kill himself because dying releases his spren (this involves yet another hypothesis, that a surgebinder that dies releases his spren rather than killing his spren - otherwise there should be a huge number of shards floating around).

This seems pretty explicitly being saved for Shallan's benefit, since the other major time she might have had information to figure this out (the challenge after the 4 shardbearer fight) Kaladin's challenge is phrased in a suspiciously vague manner. It's also really hard to imagine how Kaladin could have explained how Amaram screwed him over without describing his defense of Amaram (that's a huge reason why that event is so traumatizing). Conversely, when he talks to Dalinar he's pretty explicit about it (maybe a slight dancing around - he does mention a more general description first). I have a feeling that this will hit pretty early in the next book. It seems like this bit of drama has to be 'saved' since if Kaladin is around, I think it'd be pretty easy for him to explain what happened. Alternatively, if Dalinar is the one to explain to her what happened, offhandedly without details, when she asks where Amaram went (since of course Dalinar conveniently doesn't know the relationship between Amaram's shards and Shallan), this leads to angst! and drama! as Shallan steeeeeeeeews while Kaladin is also conveniently away on his trip and unable to defend himself. Bonus points if the Ghostbloods provide a fake scenario to really cause her to freak out. Double bonus points of Pattern piles on due to the grudge against Honorspren.

Well, it's probably true we can't absolutely rule this out for sure, but we know that his blade didn't glow like the other Radiant blades we've seen. It's also not clear if a Radiant blade becomes a dead blade if the Radiant dies (if that's the case, it seems like there should be _tons_ of shards lying around around long before the Recreance - or maybe some way to recycle them). I don't remember if there's an explicit description of Helaran's blade with or without a gem offhand, but we know that dead blades all have the gem for the binding; if Helaran's was a real Radiant blade presumably it wouldn't have the gem attachment, which would imply that Amaram must know how to make the blades bindable (not impossible given how much information he has) which in turn probably would mean he could recognize the implications of Helaran's blade; all in all it just seems like the evidence tends to point to Helaran's blade being a dead shardblade. None of the other members of Darkness's group seem to have any unusual shardblades, either.

I'm not really sure any of the KR will care that much about it. Syl is certainly not so anti-shardblade that she doesn't want Kaladin protecting them when it's appropriate, let alone actively making them ditch their shards, and she'd probably be the one who'd be most likely to cause a fuss. However, we do know that non-surgebinders are capable of doing some level of infusion through some relationship with the surgebinders (though this might be specific to Windrunners, given they're explicitly mentioned with squires), and I suspect that'll prove to be incompatible with the dead shardblades. Either way I don't see the KR imposing a ban on shardblades or anything like that (too authoritarian in my opinion).

I don't think the Skybreakers lead by Darkness/Nin are the actual Radiant Skybreakers. We see none of the surgebinding or the radiant shardblades you'd expect from actual surgebinders, and the fact they have no problem handling dead shardblades seem to indicate that they don't hear the shardblades, either (Lift's scene and, if you accept he was one, Helaran). Darkness's surgebinding is pretty clearly from an Honorblade (presumably the one unaccounted for by the Shin + Taln's). It seems more likely that the modern Skybreakers are corrupted versions of the original, without any real connection to the original besides the name, though still led by the Herald. There's really no reason to think that Darkness's group (or Darkness himself) is anything like the Radiant Skybreakers; the only 'sure' way we've seen of definitively living the ideal of the different orders is through their associated spren. I don't think just finding out the Heralds lied to them would be sufficient to cause the Recreance. In particular, whatever happened has to have been so compelling that every single honorspren-bounded Radiant (who are practically by definition among the most honorable individuals on the planet) would be willing to kill their spren - not just disband the organization, or do something to release the spren (presumably there's a way - or every time a Radiant dies, you get dead spren; that's potentially a _lot_ of shards...) or otherwise just walk away, but explicitly kill their spren. It's also worth noting that the spren-based Knights aren't really directly related to the Heralds; the relationship is because it's the nature of spren to copy what already exists. Even if they found out the Heralds are not the exemplars of virtue, I don't see why that would take away from the fact that they're still doing good works.

It seems like the requirements for the different orders to be 'in grace' are pretty idiosyncratic. Regarding what happened with Shallan's father, it seems unlikely Syl would have found that to be an acceptable solution; she seems to generally be against anything that feels 'underhanded', especially because there's actually a reasonable resolution to that situation: she could have (potentially) gotten between her father and her brother with her shardblade and given her father a chance to back off (a la Moash, Kaladin and Elhokar), only killing if her father presses the issue - yes that'd require some serious moxie, but that's exactly what you could imagine Kaladin in that situation would do. Further, revenge, even in the name of justice (killing her father for being a murderer) is clearly not a sufficient reason (e.g. Amaram). On topic of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin - it seems pretty clear that (for now) Kaladin and Shallan are the favored pairing; every single encounter between them helps reinforce that (especially the pre-chasm and the chasm scene). I'd argue actually that it was actually _immediately_ obvious after the little insult exchange when they first meet in the warcamps (it screams tsundere - from both of them) that that's where that was going. Kaladin is always Serious Business and Shallan is Avoids Conflict, and yet they deal with each in a completely non-standard way in that scene. Adolin on the other hand doesn't seem to have a chance; Shallan is always putting on an act with Adolin, and she has no problem whatsoever with lying to him consciously (which is to say, she treats him like how she treats pretty much everyone else). We see this in the scene where Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan are visiting the menagerie, and we see this when she lies to Adolin (multiple occasions) about what she's doing or was doing. Her interaction with Kaladin is far more truthful (at least in part because he's good at catching her lying) and in the chasm scene, practically soul-revealing. Her internal description of Kaladin is far more flattering than her description of Adolin. I don't really think her brother is going to be that big of an issue - or rather, I think it's supportive of their relationship happening; in fact, I'm pretty sure it was specifically avoided in this book to try and set up an issue to make their relationship that much more interesting. Kaladin could have easily been -way- more specific in his challenge to Amaram after the 4 shardbearer scene (his choice of wording seems _very_ careful and general), and he has a specific excuse as to why he didn't mention it to Shallan in the chasm - since otherwise there'd be very little to provide a conflict to generate a spark between them. There's also the conflict between Cryptics and Honorspren, but again, this is the sort of conflict that I'd say makes their relationship more likely rather than less (a la Romeo and Juliet). Pattern and Syl nagging their respective partners not to interact so much with each other = drama goldmine without Serious Implications. In fact, I'd say that it's almost _so_ obvious that one has to wonder if it isn't intentionally misleading. Given what happens in WoR, it would be more of a subversion/more interesting if Kaladin and Shallan didn't end up in a relationship. All that said I think Kaladin/Shallan is the obvious relationship, but also that they really do go well together (even if it's troperiffic), if only because they have very similar capabilities but completely different methods; they complement each other very nicely.

It was very good, though parts of it make me wonder if it's trolling or it's really just that obvious... It feels like most of the mechanics of the magic in the world is understood at this point (there are still plenty of mysteries, but the -big- ones are mostly answered); the major outstanding one is probably how shardplate fits into everything, since they don't seem to have the same 'dead spren' vibe the shardblades do. It feels like the questions are going to be relating to how all of the secret societies are related to one another (let's see - Gavilar, who was apparently friends with everyone, Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor, Skybreakers, the Diagram, the Shin, probably a couple of more); it's pretty amusing the everybody seems to know everyone else. The key theme of the book to me was contrast. Mostly this was focused on Kaladin (likely because he's the one we know the most about at this point) and Shallan. Kaladin contrasts with Moash (pretty obvious), Szeth (also pretty obvious - but I see this in a law vs. good sort of way given the denouement) and Shallan (the scene in the chasm). Shallan's contrasts are her alternate selves and the way she generates distorted reflections of other people - in a positive way (indeed, she arguably single-handedly puts Kaladin on his right path during the chasm scene). Overall it reminds me of the theme from Mistborn about looking at what the character might have been if they'd made slightly different choices; Shallan's power is effectively the ability to bring about those alternate realities. Dalinar contrasts with Amaram (began in WoK, ends nicely with Dalinar's trick). Now the trolling... the book seems so pro-Shallan/Kaladin that it almost feels like a trap. The scene where they meet the first time in the warcamp is pure classic tsundere; that scene immediately made it obvious where the relationship was going (almost too obvious...). Most of their interactions go that way, but the scene before and during the chasm are particularly notable. It's not even really a triangle; Adolin just has no clue, though he seems to have glimmers of it near the end of the book (to be fair, Shallan also seems to not have consciously noticed, but if there's one this she does really, really well, it's ignore inconvenient truths about herself). Shallan/Kaladin's relationship even has built-in pitfalls to make it more interesting (Helaran and the Cryptic vs. Honorspren angle). It also looks like Kaladin will be conveniently away for Book three so he's not there to defend himself when Shallan does learn about who actually killed Helaran - which will probably be about 5 minutes after Veil joining the Ghostbloods, if Dalinar doesn't tell her in the first chapter (I actually thought this might be deduceable from Kaladin's challenge of Amaram, but re-reading the scene, the wording is verrrrry careful...). Also - how does Shallan build the storm room during the chasm scene? She only has one hand free (I think; there's a mention of her checking to see if her sleeve came undone when she wakes from her nap, but nothing else that seems to indicate whether she's wearing a glove). She's climbing with a Shardblade...A Spren (or Stormlight) Did It? I was also somewhat disappointed by Chapter 7, though I understand why she had to be Put On A Bus; if she'd been around for any amount of time at the warcamps, the book probably would have been much, much shorter. This book basically let everyone else catch up to her (lampshaded pretty clearly in the ending, I'd say) so hopefully we'll be seeing more of her. It's also practically an in-universe meme that she's right about everything; I'm torn if it would be more amusing if this always proved to be true (in particular, if she's always even accidentally correct) or if it's going to come back to bite someone. Kaladin's Third Ideal was somewhat disappointing, but I have sort of a headcanon that seems to explain it more satisfactorily. In particular, Kaladin's real issue is not so much about Elhokar and Moash, but about Amaram. This is because Kaladin protected Amaram - and Amaram becomes the reason Kaladin can't protect his squad. This is the real contradiction in his oaths - how can he have protected Amaram when doing so resulted in him not being able to protect his squad? If he had known what Amaram would have done, should he have protected Amaram? I think the Third Ideal says 'yes' to that question, in which case Kaladin's actions were still in Honor (a secondary headcanon bit is that this is due to the fact that the future can't be predicted, i.e. there is in fact no way that Kaladin could have known for sure what Amaram would have done, but he could be a lot surer about Amaram dying against the Shardbearer). The wording of the Ideal does make it awkward, but I pretend that the Ideal can be applied post facto (you might hate the person for something they do after you protect them - so it was 'right' at the time). Overall it was really good, even if the early parts dragged a little, and some parts feel a bit too pat (it really feels like the back-end of WoK, where pretty much all of the major questions of WoK are answered). And Kaladin does carry the idiot ball for a good chunk of the book, but I primarily blame Shallan for that (she had to provide The Revelation for him). But IMO the chasm scene is among the best scenes in the book - and it probably wouldn't have had nearly the same impact without a bit of humble pie for Kaladin - so I'm willing to forgive that.

Adolin seems to think that the Thrill led him to fight sub-optimally in the duel (enough that he goes along with the explanation that he intentionally did that to make other potential opponents underestimate him). We don't really have any reason to think Adolin is reckless in battle (in fact, Dalinar does way crazier stuff); that and Adolin's reaction leads me to believe what happened in the duel wasn't really what he was trying to do (i.e. it's not just because he's taking the duels more seriously). Dalinar does seem to feel the Thrill even when he's doing pretty heroic things (saving Sadeas) and what the Thrill seems to sometimes encourage is something very close to what I would associate with Honor (looking for worthy opponents). It's just taken to an extreme. Maybe the Thrill is something of Honor which was subverted by Odium. Regarding Kaladin being immune to the Thrill, it seems pretty likely it's related to the Second Ideal (at least for Windrunners?) given how very focused Syl is about Kaladin reciting the Second Ideal before engaging in battle (it's interesting to speculate if Kaladin is unconsciously aware of this, i.e. when he avoids sparring with the spear in the chasm). I wonder if this is part of what was somehow built into the Radiants' oaths by Nohadon. This would explain the other vision where the Radiant says everyone with an inclination towards fighting should become a Radiant. That also makes me wonder if the Desolations are somehow tied to the non-Radiant surgebinders (which might explain a lot about Darkness) though the Nohadon vision seems to imply that it isn't the only reason...or is it? Nohadon mentions Alakavish as if it was a coincidence, but it's interesting how he notes that 'our own natures destroy us', which is very similar to what Honor says about what Odium has figured out. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence, after all. Re-reading Nohadon's section also brings up an interesting point (though not really related to the topic) - the Desolation has struck but Nohadon talks about what the Heralds will find when they next return (which seems to imply they did not presage that particular Desolation). When first reading that section I remember (due to that passage) thinking that this occurred after the Prelude chronologically (i.e. the Heralds didn't show up because all but one quit) but upon reflection that contradicts there being no Desolation since the Heralds gave up. The Prelude seems to imply pretty strongly the Heralds' return is connected to the Desolations, so it's unclear if Nohadon's phrasing here is just misleading or if what's going on isn't actually a Desolation (or maybe the Heralds showed up but got killed immediately...).