Seloun

I could see Truthwatchers in an intelligence agency role; I just can't figure out how to fit the Regrowth surge into it. Based on Ym's interlude it appears to be actually healing ability, though I guess metaphorically they might 'heal' 'illumination' = lie detection or some other interrogative power. Would make sense with the 'I see' declaration by Renarin. Mainly the reason I focus on the buffing/morale aspect is due to the epigraphs. I concede an espionage role fits what we've seen of their power set pretty well (though against Voidbringers I'm not sure that really comes into effect that much). The epigraphs only specifically mention their boosting ability, though. That said, the Edgedancer epigraph doesn't really focus on what their Ideal seems to represent, so it's certainly possible Lightweavers do both roles. I just like the idea that Lightweavers _start_ as scouts/infiltration (since presumably they're all going to be good at lying about themselves at first) but as they progress, they tend to trade in that for 'beneficial' lying. i.e. morale/buffing. No real evidence, it just feels like it fits the way they progress well.

That sounds a lot like a 'magic smith' archetype. Obviously they don't really need weapons, but perhaps fabrials and/or Shardplate (depending on how that theory goes)?

I think this is practically confirmed in the books. In the chasm scene ("Selfish Reasons", ch 72), after killing the chasmfiend: and earlier ("From A Nightmare", ch 70): This looks just like what happens with the stormform Parshendi: The only difference is it's a different spren - smokespren perhaps instead of stormspren. The 'hunting' chasmfiend seems to be different than the regular chasmfiends. It's also worth noting that the Thrill also appears to be gone by the time Alethi engage the Parshendi. Maybe that's related...

Sort of close to what I was assuming, though I'd reorg as: Windrunners - Tier 1/"tip of the spear" - seem to be the most mobile of the forces (I'm assuming Elsecalling is not as reliable or somehow inaccurate), probably the best combatants on a per individual basis since they have to get there fast, make a big difference, then move on quickly. Air cav? Skybreakers - MPs (pretty much confirmed) Releasers - Artillery/Siege Edgedancers - Medevac/S&R Truthwatchers - Hard to call given the lack of examples - they apparently have healing but also predictive capabilities, so hard to really pin a role for them. Something supporty though. Lightweavers - Morale - I know Shallan does the espionage thing, but that part of what she doesn't really feel KR-ish to me; I think it's something Lightweaver acolytes would do during their progression, but the 'main' role of Lightweavers is to essentially buff everyone else. Elsecallers - Mass transport, Logistics Willshaper - I actually have no idea with this one. Stonewards - Heavy infantry; presumably less mobile but tough. Bondsmiths - I'd put them more administrative/political; would agree with 'general' though. Might be communications/dispatch too, which would fit with 'general' (in this case, it would be Bondsmith->other roles, not Bondsmith<->Bondsmith). Maybe use the Skyfather as a giant messenger service...

That's a good point. Something I've been wondering...Ym appears to have been a Truthwatcher given that he has access to Regrowth, but does not appear to be an Edgedancer. If that's the case, aren't Truthwatchers the only example of multiple surgebinders with the same spren? Though Elhokar's descriptions don't seem consistent at all with Ym's descriptions. Assuming the spren aren't lying, there's only one honorspren, only one edgedancer-spren (?), only one Cryptic, and probably only one Elsecaller spren (based on what Jasnah says). It seems fishy that there's more than one Truthwatcher-spren (we haven't actually seen Renarin's spren, however)... also makes me wonder what the heck Nalan has been doing for however long it's been since the Recreance, since there doesn't appear to have been any Surgebinders in all that time until very recently (unless...there were?).

I'm pretty sure it really is Kaladin-related. According to Cheese Ninja's timeline, it's almost 30 days between when Kaladin starts guarding Elhokar and when Shallan arrives; that feels way too long for Shallan's arrival to be a factor. That means the 4-shardbearer scene is well past that point, too, so it's unlikely it's due to Elhokar being inspired by that. I suppose it might have been after Szeth's first attack, but IIRC Elhokar doesn't really see Kaladin do anything before being carted away. Some kind of voidspren or Cryptics both could probably fit. Syl mentions seeing evil spren (not Cryptics) around fairly early in the book (ch 9, 15) but those seem to pretty clearly be references to stormspren. I don't think she sees any other strange spren, except Pattern in the arena. Pattern does appear to 'flee' from Syl (granted, that's her interpretation), so that seems like the most likely explanation. Elhokar may have self-denial issues like Shallan; the Roshone affair might be a good fit, given how Dalinar seems to think it's semi-secret.

What about the Vanrial? Also, one of the ardents in WoK has an interesting conversation with Dalinar ("Gibletish" - ch 54) where he tells Dalinar that they'll get back in touch with him. Not clear if this is something going on in the church or another group represented here.

Adolin does seem to be going bad. One might even say...he's spoiled. More seriously, we don't really know how prone Adolin is to jealousy. For pretty much his entire life, he's always been able to get what he's wanted. The comparison to Elhokar isn't really appropriate, since Elhokar wants to be regarded like Gavilar (and is failing) but Adolin has no real desire to take on the responsibilities of a highprince. It's true that he doesn't really exhibit any jealousy even near the end of the book. But it seems like this is mainly because he's still trying to process everything that's happened. He's been spending a lot of time thinking about how things have changed little bit before his attack on Sadeas. The implication is that his attack might not simply because of Sadeas's actions, but rather Sadeas's taunting was the last straw.

Shallan's been pretty hard on her authority figures to date: - Killed Mother (and friend) - Killed Father - Arguably got stepmother killed - Robbed/Hoodwinked Jasnah (may argue that Shallan got her 'killed' by recommending the boat) - Killed Tyn - Made Mraize look like a fool (his own words) (probably will kill him too) - Made Dalinar cry (okay, that one might not be as serious) I'd fear for Hoid's life if he began teaching her. Though I'm sure he'd get better.

I figured that it was due to the Heralds all having their natural eye color. However, Taln hasn't invested Stormlight since he returned, has he? Might explain why his eyes are dark. Shardblades burn out the eyes - maybe lightening of the eye is a related phenomenon.

Not to overemphasize this, but in 'Safe Things' (19): In particular, the Shardblade has the typical gemstone on the hilt for binding. I'm pretty sure Mraize was being relatively honest about Helaran's affinity. If he'd been a Ghostblood, I would think that he would have used that as a lure for Shallan; given how much he knows about their family I would imagine he would know that she thinks very highly of him. Re: Shallan's mother was a Skybreaker - I see two problems with this: 1) How come no other Skybreakers show up? This can potentially be explained by for whatever reason her mother and her friend not telling anyone, but it seems really peculiar that they'd be part of some covert organization, die under mysterious circumstances, and never be investigated. 2) What crime did Shallan commit? This can potentially be explained by her mother not being as zealous about the 'law' aspect compared to Nalan (as we see in the Lift interlude), but it's another nagging issue. It's also possible that Shallan did commit some crime (we know basically nothing about her life pre-stabbing) but it's just another assumption that has to be made to make this theory work.

I'm curious if anyone else sees possible parallels between Shallan's father and the Heralds. Nalan almost seems to fit, even if his brand of crazy doesn't present quite in the same manner. Somewhat ironic for Helaran...

Something I'd forgotten, from 'Safe Things' (19): which actually makes me wonder if Shallan's father _did_ tell Helaran, but Helaran didn't believe him. Or if this was the only instance. Regardless, it makes me wonder what would have happened if Helaran knew what had occurred. Would that have made it better or worse? Ultimately, it seems like the responsibility is due to Shallan's mother's actions, compounded by the societal baggage that goes along with having a Shardblade. If Helaran had been willing to listen, how much would have been different?

I believe you are thinking about Willshapers, not Truthwatchers:

I'm referring to Shallan's father, if it's unclear. Of all of the revelations in WoR, this is probably the one that bugs me the most. Is Shallan's father a hero, or a villain? Now, the cheap answer is probably 'both', but his characterization is interesting enough that I think it's worth examining in some detail. The argument on the villain side is pretty easy, of course - he's abusive, violent, and ultimately murderous. Plenty of examples from the flashbacks to support that side. However, the last revelation changes the picture drastically. He makes an enormous sacrifice so that Shallan is not implicated in either death. If he gets his way, no one (except Shallan) will ever know what he did for her, and instead will be scorned and hated forever, even by his other children. At no time that we see does he seem tempted to give up the burden, and he never seems to blame Shallan for his state or the family's misfortunes. Re-reading the flashbacks seem to indicate that this is the stone around his neck that drags him down. It seems like a hugely heroic thing to have done, doubly so because no one will ever (presumably) learn of it. Basically, he's the anti-Amaram. I can think of two possible alternative readings that make it seem less heroic. The first is that, well, he's scared of Shallan (girl's got a Shardblade, after all, and she doesn't seem to have a whole lot of compunctions about killing people in self-defense). This kinda sorta works but I don't really ever get that vibe from what we see. The second is that it's just an extension of his possessiveness; Shallan is _his_, and no one gets to take her from him. Also sort of fits what we see, just not very strongly. It's worth noting that Hoid implies that there's something unnatural going on here: So perhaps her father's degeneration has a supernatural element, though that almost seems to take away from his arc. I want to say that her father's arc is supposed to be a classic greek tragedy (note: I am not an expert on greek tragedies, classic or otherwise); ultimately his great, heroic act is what ends up dooming him. I think I'd have to call him a hero, but I'm curious how other people interpret this. A side note - What will happen when/if her siblings learn what really happened to their mother?

This is certainly possible. My comment was mainly that there's no doubt he's broken now, if there was any possibility he wasn't broken enough before he became Truthless. My current working theory is that what made Szeth become Truthless was proto-Surgebinding, and that the Honorblades somehow interfere with the Nahel bond. They aren't willing to just kill Szeth (I suspect the Stone Shamen are Radiant Remnants, with still a strict code) so they make him fight until he gets killed while holding the Honorblade so he never progresses in his Nahel bond.

When Shallan is hiding in her fake boulder after showing them the sketches from Amaram's secret room: So it's probably not specific to just Amaram, but the whole group. In particular Restares seems to be the focus, not Amaram himself.

Eshonai doesn't have her Shardblade out in that passage, though, unless I'm missing something. The Parshendi seems to be somehow symbiotic with the spren, similar to the Nahel bond; I assumed the comet-spren was whatever she had been bonded to before. Sort of off-topic, but regarding the same Interlude - does it seem like Eshonai was unconsciously trying to undermine the Stormforms' plans?

The quotation seems to indicate that they only decided she was a Surgebinder after she arrived at the Shattered Plains. Actually, re-reading the passage more carefully, it's not clear that Mr. T has already decided she's a Surgebinder. The quote says they 'already' hypothesized she had been trained, while Adrotagia appears to be offering Shallan as a possible Surgebinder rather than a confirmed Surgebinder. It could be read either way, but when Szeth talks about a Surgebinder at the beginning, Mr. T immediately assumes it's Jasnah, despite the fact that they know Shallan is at the Shattered Plains and Jasnah is (presumed) dead. This seems like an odd assumption if they know Shallan is a Surgebinder and is definitively not dead. This may imply the 'training' discussed might be as an agent rather than a Surgebinder specifically.

I read that as 'they were the first [to break their oaths], and they were also the last [generation of the Knights Radiant]', i.e. 'beginning of the end'. If others had done the same earlier, I would have expected that news would have traveled, so it must be early - probably the very first group to give up their Shards. The other orders presumably followed suit some time after.

I was wondering about that passage too, but the simplest explanation in my opinion is that you don't have to be a Surgebinder to train a Surgebinder. Simply knowing about what Surgebinders can do, their combinations, etc. would be incredibly helpful, compared to Kaladin and Shallan's trying to figure things out from scratch.

I actually think Gavilar was playing the secret societies off of each other, or that he was involved with several of them at once. As mentioned before, Taravangian talks about Gavilar as if they had been allied: Gavilar also thinks it's very possible Restarte is the one who sent Szeth. Amaram's thought that Gavilar would be proud is his own interpretation. It's not really obvious that Amaram actually knows about Gavilar's visions or that he's interpreting what Gavilar wanted correctly (for example, it might be secondhand through Restartes post-assassination). The stated goals of the Sons of Honor are pretty inconsistent with what we've seen of Dalinar's visions, which doesn't mention much if anything about returning the Heralds or the Church to power. Based on Taravangian's interlude, it seems like a safe bet that Gavilar's visions were the same as Dalinar's.

This seems unlikely, if only because of the coachman scene in WoR. For some reason I get the feeling Lopen is more than he appears. Maybe it's the whole 'the Lopen' thing. He's got a lot of 'cousins' who act a lot like agents. I'll put out a crackpot theory that Lopen is head of one of the nine secret organizations (one whose name we don't know yet).

That's sort of the point, though. Kaladin wanting to kill Amaram in that fashion is clearly depicted as being morally wrong. Kaladin acknowledges it's wrong the entire book; he just tries to rationalize to himself why it's okay. What Kaladin wants to do isn't always consistent with Kaladin's morality, but so far Kaladin's moral sense appears to be the 'correct' one in the series.

I'm not convinced Gavilar was part of the Sons of Honor, or, more accurately, that he was exclusively a member of the Sons of Honor. Gavilar appears to have shared his visions with Taravangian (something he didn't do with Dalinar) which seems to imply a certain amount of closeness there. Restartes is also the second person he assumes sent Szeth after Thaidakar (and before Sadeas). All of the secret societies seem to know each other pretty well. Maybe it's because they're all really good at espionage, but another possibility is that they're all splinters of a single organization (possibly lead by Gavilar) that had a falling-out near Gavilar's assassination. Back to question, though... I don't think it was the right decision, no. It seems pretty clear that the Parshendi were being manipulated, what with Szeth being conveniently available for them to use. It feels like they were railroaded into it by a third party somehow. I also don't know why explaining the situation to Gavilar was necessarily off the table; I don't see 'everyone looks into ways to control Parshendi' is a necessary conclusion from 'tell Gavilar it's a bad idea'.