Seloun

Actually, one might argue that the ability to receive visions from Tanavast is one of the special gifts for Bondsmiths/Dalinar. Dalinar goes outside, and unlike e.g. Kaladin (who always seems to be talking to the Stormfather in the Cognitive) Dalinar just starts talking to the sky and the sky responds. I'm still inclined to say that Memory and wind-reading are the most likely abilities for Lightweavers and Windrunners. Hard to tell without exact wording, but I don't know that not being 100% correct precludes getting the general gist of the abilities correct.

Well, to be fair, she does treat him somewhat dismissively during Kaladin's flashback, and I suspect this is what people have in mind when thinking bad thoughts about Laral: But to be double-fair, Laral doesn't appear to like treating Kaladin poorly (note she turns her head away in the above passage, and): And to be triple-fair, Kaladin does note that he hasn't made a lot of effort to see Laral after Roshone arrives: However (quadruple-fair), Kaladin did try, at least at the beginning, to keep seeing Laral: That said, we can't really blame Kaladin being turned away on Laral, either. It's also worth noting that Laral seems to want to marry Kaladin, too, pre-Roshone - the entire passage is really too long to quote, but she implies pretty strongly that she wants him to become a soldier to win a Shardblade, thus becoming lighteyes and acceptable for them to get married. On a close reading it's really hard to blame Laral for any of what occurred; the only really jarring part is where she fails to defend Kaladin from Rillir's insults, but it's also clear that she's extremely uncomfortable with them.

I don't know that I'd really agree that Syl stops being concerned about Kaladin's welfare in WoR. It's mainly that there aren't similar physical threats to Kaladin that she can do too much about. She's certainly concerned about how Kaladin's obsession about lighteyes is affecting his decision making (for good reason, I'd say). I also don't interpret the scene where Syl tells Kaladin that she doesn't think he's really trying to do the right thing the same way. It seems pretty clear that Kaladin believe he's doing the wrong thing by agreeing to help assassinate Elhokar (Kaladin spent pretty much the entire book believing it to be a wrong thing, but was having difficulty articulating why). Her point isn't that he has to make up his mind; her point is that by his own moral standards, he's choosing to do the wrong thing. That interpretation combined with Syl's inability to answer Kaladin's real moral dilemma leads me to think that her sense of morality is really a reflection of Kaladin's own. Much like how she can't think without the bond, she can't really make judgements without it either, and the judgements reflect Kaladin's conscience. It might be that some functions are 'hardwired' in (like the protecting thing) but overall her interpretation of morality appears to be consistent with not-broken Kaladin's interpretation (down the the parts where he doesn't have an answer). I do agree the spren seem pretty creepy. Syl mentions herself that she doesn't really understand people still. There's clearly some level of moral dissonance going on, though how sinister it is is hard to really tell at this point. FWIW, I have a working theory that the Recreance was caused by the revelation that spren are farming humans for the bond. We know that a broken soul is necessary for the Nahel bond, and that the spren require having a human (host?) bond partner to become sentient. It doesn't seem like a big step to notice that the spren have to ensure a supply of broken humans in order to maintain their 'race' in the physical realm, and in turn that they might have taken *active* steps to ensure such a supply. Just another paranoia-inducing hypothesis when it comes to creepy spren behavior.

Yes, though in principle we don't necessarily need the glyphs. However I don't know what the 'theme word' of the missing 4 Orders would be. Book 5 is supposed to be Dalinar's, so being Bondsmith, if it follows the pattern would be: (bondsmith-word) (above) (storm/lightning?) (above) (bondsmith-word) Maybe something like "unity above storms, above unity" (if we guess 'unity' is the Bondsmith keyword, and the actual kelek would likely have more linking words). I don't know that we know what Order book 4 will be associated with (Eshonai's flashback, so we can assume Willshaper or Dustbringer by process of elimination). Obviously all this assumes that there is in fact an underlying pattern and the future books will follow it (with two examples, it's tough to say anything for certain). Assuming it does follow the pattern, it's interesting that Kalak's word is 'deadly' (which seems out of place compared to the other words, which have clear parallels to the associated Order).

Or the reason Szeth smiled has nothing to do with Honorblades: Seems like a much more natural reading is that this is an ironic smile/grimace blaming Dalinar for making more people die by not giving up quickly. We've seen the progression of Szeth blaming himself for killing his victims to blaming his victims for being too weak to kill him throughout TWoK.

First, it's not necessary to be a Surgebinder to train a surgebinder (if it wasn't, then being of different Order without shared surges would basically disallow that possibility as well). Second, Taravangian isn't specifically talking about being trained as surgebinder - just trained as something (e.g. a spy). More telling is that when Szeth mentions a Surgebinder at the Shattered Plains, Taravangian's first thought is Jasnah - someone presumed to be dead - before Shallan - who is clearly at the Shattered Plains. If Taravangian had reason to believe Shallan was a surgebinder, he wouldn't have assumed Jasnah first (Shallan would have been the far more obvious choice). This likely means that Taravangian knows for sure that Jasnah is a Surgebinder, but Shallan is unlikely a Surgebinder. Helaran's blade also has the gem on its pommel like every other Shardblade, so he wasn't using a live Shardblade either. For Helaran to be a Surgebinder, there would have to be something going on that we're not privy to yet (which is possible, but the point is that there's little if any existing evidence for Helaran being a Surgebinder).

Based on what we know of current Alethi culture, Dalinar being suspected of killing Sadeas but there being no witness would be an impressive action, not a shameful one. It seems unlikely that the average Alethi would be anything but approving. That said, it would certainly undermine his moral authority (or moral credibility, perhaps) if people suspect this. His recent allies (especially Aladar) might also think that they were played if they have reason to suspect Dalinar was behind this. However, Sadeas has enough enemies and Dalinar's reputation is good enough that I don't think it would be surprising if no one really considers Dalinar a likely suspect.

Interesting - I never realized the glyphs form a ketek like the section titles do. Each glyph appears to be somewhat related to the section title's main word: 1 - Jez - Above Silence, Silence Above (Above) 2 - Nan - Illuminating Storms, Storm's Illumination (Storm? Lightning?) 3 - Chach - Dylng (Decay/Fading) 4 - 5 - 6 - Shash - Alight, Winds Alight (Alight) 7 - Beteb - Winds' Approach, The Approach (Approach) 8 - Kalak - Deadly 9 - 0 - I guess we'll expect book 3 to have 2,3,4,3,2 structure with (Storm) (Decay) (?restoring?) (Decay) (Storm)...

Shallan is aware of gravitationspren, and believes that she's seen a picture of them, so probably not: My current theory is that this might somehow be related to the lifecycle of spren themselves (or some spren) - the spren 'consciousness' in larval form lives with the skyeels, then eventually migrates to occupying a greatshell, then finally transitions to the Cognitive during a highstorm by making the greatshell pupate during highstorms. Re: Gemhearts: It's probably not unreasonable to think of the greatshells as living fabrials; given the amount of energy literally floating around during highstorms it doesn't seem too far-fetch to assume creatures have evolved to store and use that energy. Maybe they're effectively giant mass-diminisher fabrials.

There's a fair bit of stuff to explain away in order to accept Hoid=Mraize, and there's very little reason to tie them together (pretty much the only 'evidence' is Shallan's comparison). It seems unlikely that this is the case. One of the missions Shallan gets from the Ghostbloods is to investigate 'Taln'. If Hoid=Mraize, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Now it's possible to handwave this away (e.g. it's just a test for Veil) but it's an odd thing for Hoid to ask Veil to do. Hoid also mentions to Dalinar that he'll be disappearing shortly after the 4 Shardbearer duel (presumably to head to where he'll be in the Epilogue). Mraize is in Urithiru around that time. Again, this can be handwaved (Hoid can teleport...or project images...or something, or timing shenanigans) but it's another unnecessary complexity to make the theory work. The statements about Jasnah's research doesn't mean much. We know the Ghostbloods are looking for Jasnah's research all the way from TWoK. By the end of WoR, that research is pretty much out of date, as Jasnah recognizes in the Epilogue; her additional information has to be presumed to be something she got out of her Elsecalling (something which presumably wasn't a factor before WoR). Also, it's not like Jasnah is completely unwilling to talk to Hoid as Wit. If he really wanted to know something, the simplest solution would have been to just ask her. That's exactly what he does in the Epilogue. Why doesn't he do that earlier? Because she didn't have such information, making the Ghostblood connection about some other information entirely. This may not be conclusive proof, but it seems clear that the conclusion Hoid=Mraize requires a lot of contorting to make it work (Hoid and Mraize are split personalities!).

The Honorblades may very well have powers beyond what we've seen (especially when used by the Herald) but I don't think the extra powers would include using all of the Surges. Note that Nin near the end of WoR uses a fabrial to replicate Regrowth on Szeth. If we accept that Nin is the Herald with his Honorblade, he wouldn't need the fabrial if he had access to all of the Surges. There's WoB that implies the Heralds do have inherent power unrelated to Surgebinding IIRC. I don't think it's necessary for the KR to be able to rival the Herald's power for Ishar to feel they needed some sort of restriction. We know Surgebinders caused conflicts between humans in the past (assuming that Dalinar's Nohadon vision is based on a real event). Given that one of the purposes of the Heralds is to try to preserve what they can during the Desolation and do what they can to rebuild before having to leave, making sure Surgebinders aren't constantly ripping apart civilization even without a Desolation sounds like a pretty important thing.

Lift + Elsecaller Honorblade. Lift Soulcasts a boulder into food, and consumes it to get more Stormlight than used to make the food => infinity combo! Lift with unlimited Stormlight and Transportation => ultimate medevac The Lightweaver Honorblade could work too, but I think Transportation is probably more useful than Illumination. Alternatively have Lift dual wield the Elsecaller blade and the Windrunner blade for infinity-lashing railguns. Lift is just a gamebreaker due to her food->stormlight conversion.

Predictions: - Wit will wear a wig while talking to Adolin - Jasnah will end up with Kaladin for most of the book (this is mainly because there are too many PoV locations otherwise and it's still too early for Jasnah to interact a lot with Shallan) - Jasnah will end up with Szeth near the end of the book (early on Szeth will have too many issues, but Jasnah/Szeth need to work this out at some point) - Jasnah + Szeth resolves the issue about the black gem - Kaladin will have to deal with rioting darkeyes resenting him in Kholinar (in a reflection of his attitude from before) - might be where Tarah arc is resolved - Kaladin's Fourth Ideal will be about letting those capable put themselves in harms way to protect others (one of his major remaining hang-ups) - Shallan will find out about Kaladin killing Helaran early in the book (too much obfuscation in WoR and too many people know at this point) - Kaladin and Shallan will not interact for most of the book except indirectly (necessary to make previous point relevant) - Lift will become KR (either Gawp comes to Urithiru or someone goes to talk with Gawp) - Jez's Honorblade will be used by Dalinar, then Adolin, and later stolen (probably Ghostbloods, maybe with Shallan's help) - I don't think the Honorblade can really be left floating around - Part of Adolin's arc will be Honorblade addiction as Adolin thinks he needs to 'keep up' to be useful - Adolin will kill Amaram - There will be a falling out between Renarin and Adolin

To be frank I'm not really convinced of it myself. But it seems likely that: 1) WoR-'Taln' is familiar with where ever the Heralds go between Desolations 2) TWoK-'Taln' had an Honorblade 3) WoR-'Taln' is TWoK-'Taln' (they looks similar, at least, with same coloring) If 'Taln' isn't really Taln (of course, WoB may be trolling...) it seems like the only place for a switch would have been at the Desolation (unless somehow someone could switch _between_ Desolations). In Taln's interlude: which I was interpreting to mean that the Shardblade wasn't his Honorblade, but could also be read as someone who took up Taln's role, including his place in the Oathpact. The thing is, I'm not sure if any of the Heralds could fit; of the male Heralds, Kalak and Jez are in the Prelude (I'm going to discount Kalak somehow lying to himself or Kalak somehow not realizing Jez has been replaced), Jez references Ishar (technically we don't see him, but seems unlikely), Nalan is highly likely to be Darkness, and...there's really no other option that I can tell, meaning if this is true it's probably not another Herald.

Crazy theory: What if it wasn't Taln that died bound to the Honorblade during the last Desolation? Though...since Szeth doesn't vanish after death, just being bound to the Honorblade appears to be insufficient. Nevertheless the Heralds in the Prelude seem to indicate there's some way to 'go back' (though I suppose this might be due to suicide). What if Taln got someone else to take his place?

I actually put this in the typos thread, thinking it might have been a continuity error (no reactions though). Leaving Pattern in place seems like the easiest canon explanation, though personally it still seems a bit weird she'd be so casual about letting someone else handle her Shardblade. I almost favor the 'Kaladin flies really fast' explanation more since it doesn't explicitly say how long Dalinar is on the roof or how long it takes for him to get to the meeting chamber. One last possibility is that the Honorblade can do the same thing, and someone else is using that. I'm not sure if that's more or less horrifying that someone operating it with Pattern, though. Both of those possibilities doesn't answer the literal wording of the question though (who is borrowing the Blade in those scenarios?).

Well, it certainly means their difference of opinion about the weather is not going to be significant barrier. When I noticed the difference originally, it was subtle enough that I was wondering if it was just coincidental (though when I re-read, I noticed that it's actually referenced frequently throughout the entire book, at least on Shallan's side). The fact that BS seemed to immediately get what you were referring to and immediately provide an anecdote seems like a pretty good indication that the difference is not coincidental. Not ruling out the magic influence thing leads me to think that it's might be spren-influenced somehow.

While amusing to contemplate, I think logistically it's unlikely. Kaladin is leaving Urithiru at the end of WoR, while Shallan by all indication will remain. It's probably not too far-fetched to think that Kaladin's expedition will take most or all of book 3, and it's likely that he'll be out of comms with Shallan or very limited comms (this is mainly because Helaran is hard to make relevant unless Kaladin isn't available to explain). I'm not sure how long Shallan can or need to maintain the Veil persona. The main reason she had the persona is to infiltrate the Ghostbloods; that's obviously not much of a reason any more. From a psychological perspective I can see why she might keep the memory around (and I'm sure it'll be handy as an occasional disguise) but from a practical perspective it doesn't have much value to maintain. Even discounting those factors, I would question how long she could actually fool Kaladin. Kaladin's a pretty smart fellow and a decent investigator (enough to look into Shallan's background to some degree) and I just don't see him randomly getting involved with someone he knows nothing about. Kaladin seems like the anti-Adolin when it comes to relationships; he's intense about his relationships as he is about everything else. Not really many casual friends. Granted, I could certainly see a short term 'relationship' if somehow they met in Book 3 or Veil became relevant for longer than Book 3 - I could imagine e.g. Kaladin accidentally botching Shallan's operation by 'saving' Veil from rough elements (imaging the conversation afterwards is pretty hilarious - 'stop helping me' ). But I can't really see anything that would last more than a scene or two.

Not really sure why you think the Shallan being lighteyes will pose a particular problem; it certainly doesn't pose a problem in the latter parts of WoR. We know for certain that Kaladin is attracted to Shallan since it's directly referenced in the book: And of course: and the rest of the chasm scene. It's not really debatable that Kaladin (as of end of WoR) has an attraction to Shallan. As for the lighteyes issue, his character arc through WoR is recognizing that judging lighteyes simply based on them being lighteyes is no better than lighteyes who judge darkeyes by the same condition. Is it completely gone? No. Is it still his obsession? No. Remember that coming out as a Radiant is symbolic of getting over his obsession about lighteyes taking everything important to him. Most likely Kaladin's next big issue will be dealing with other darkeyed individuals who have similar stereotypes as a lighteyes. Regarding the original topic, the parallel certainly exists but the players are pretty different. I also don't really know what purpose the parallel really serves from a narrative standpoint (I don't find the Dalinar/Navani relationship to be a particularly integral theme so far, frankly, though I'm biased since I dislike Navani). Kaladin isn't really second banana to Adolin (arguably quite the reverse at this point, part of Angstolin to come). Given the latest WoB I would expect that Adolin/Shallan will mostly fade on its own in book three, with Kaladin/Shallan primarily being challenged by the (almost too obvious) roadblocks conveniently left in place during WoR (Helaran, spren conflict, Gaz, Laral/Tarah).

Well, Awesomeness and 'Division', actually. Though I'm not sure where this was going.

Based on the recent WoB regarding Dawnshards (one is not like the others) and Heralds (Heralds have non-surgebinder powers even without the Honorblades) I'm wondering if the Heralds themselves aren't Dawnshards. This might explain the epigraph: The Heralds certainly are capable of binding things, somehow - the Oathpact bound Odium itself. It might also be why Heralds are directly referenced in the epigraph. Maybe this referencing a body or a Herald knocked unconscious, or maybe it's a method to snap Heralds out of their fugue. It might also explain why Tanavast says since the Heralds quit on him.

Dustbringers, I believe.

Well, we know that Syl can influence the world in non-trivial ways, relatively far away from Kaladin without Kaladin's knowledge or approval: While this is a far cry from autonomously stabbing someone in Shardblade form, from a technical perspective it seems like the answer to the question should be 'yes' (e.g. 'tripping' someone while climbing down a chasm).

I don't really see Jasnah as being sociopathic (Shallan is a much better candidate if you're looking for sociopathic behavior). Jasnah's attitude towards Taravangian, Dalinar, Gavilar and Shallan all seem to demonstrate a good deal of empathy. It's also difficult to suggest that she doesn't understand altruism when she's basically trying to save the world despite constant ridicule and skepticism (without any particular benefit to herself). She's actually a really good portrayal of a very passionate individual who is nonetheless analytical with good self-control; in a lot of ways she's like Mr. T if he was able to be far on both sides of his spectrum at once. I also don't think Jasnah acts particularly superior (if anything, she's surprisingly humble). Liss comments on this during the WoR prelude. Given that she is, in fact, usually the smartest person in the room, her attitude is actually quite modest. I'm not sure there's a single instance where she acts in an arrogant or condescending manner. Shallan contrasts her behavior multiple times with her tutors, and against her preconception of what a brilliant scholar must be like. Jasnah's emotions always seem very genuine. We never see her pretend an emotion or assume a reaction that she doesn't seem to believe in. Given her reputation and the amount of intrigue she's involved in, Jasnah seems surprisingly forthright. In Jasnah's PoV we see that her internal perspective is pretty much spot-on to what she presents to the world; she might be individual with the highest integrity we've seen so far. Obviously she must be 'broken' in some way, and it's quite likely based on her responses that she's had bad experiences with certain types of men in the past. But I don't see that she's 'coping' with those issues in the sense that she's not confronting them; indeed, it's exactly the opposite - she's almost too honest, with herself and with everyone else. Compare again with Shallan. Her discussion about Taravangian is I think the best passage on this topic: Jasnah is not emotionless, not lacking in empathy nor incapable of understanding altruism. She's just incredibly intelligent, and sufficiently busy with trying to save the world that she might come off as sometimes brusque. As for Navani, it's pretty clear that she's incredibly smothering and overbearing (not to mention intrusive); it's hard to fault Jasnah for finding Navani annoying.

When I was reading the interlude, I assumed the 'Gift' was his Honorblade. When he says my assumption was that he was referring to how the Shardblade is not his Honorblade.