hawkedup

@Robinski Thank you for reading and for the time you put into the critique. It was very helpful! So he wasn't supposed to come across that way but instead like someone with the mental faculties and excitability of a toddler because he had his mind wiped recently. In the 3.1 draft I aged this up so he'd be speaking in full sentences and made sure to let the reader know that he wasn't always that way. I also changed the way Gen Y (she's more caring and patient now) spoke to him, which I hope helps with the negative feedback I got about the way his character was treated in this draft. That's fair. General is more of an honorary title, though Gen C is (was) a military strategist. I'll try to smooth this out. Yeah. It's a matter of me not quite being able to kill my darlings. The idea of the Faceless has been in my head since I was a teenager (long before GOT). I really thought I could make it my own, but you guys are right. The simple truth is that anyone who might be interested in this story will probably be familiar with GOT. I'm leaving it like that for now but will probably change it in the 4.0 draft It is with her just like a familiar. Which part is confusing? When F lands on the windowsill above her head? I'll look at it. My original plan was to pepper in the "old ways" since Lee's story primarily takes place in an urban setting that has gone away from the old ways significantly and then later introduce a second plot line featuring a different character from a rural setting where the old ways are far more prevalent. Now I'm wondering if the rural chapter needs to come first since it leans way more on this. Guess I'll find out next week since that's the chapter I'm submitting. I'll also make sure L's full name is mentioned early (L-o-e-c-a-d-i-a) and I'm gonna expand Is's name like you suggested. In my head the name is spoken with an accent but I see what you mean. Once again, thank you!

3 of my favorites! B5 is actually a fantastic example of a show making the “one species, one culture” thing work. It’s portrayed as being a byproduct of galactic expansion travel and politics. Remember the episode where Sinclair introduces the senators to someone from every faith on Earth and it’s this endless line of different people from different religions? Powerful stuff and really helps to justify the trope. So it definitely is doable.

@The Kraken's Daughter Welcome to the group! I'm new too. To the story... The following comments are based on a dry run. I haven’t read your topic or any of the replies or other critiques, and the comments are written as I read. I will make additional comments at the end once I have completed the story. Sorry in advance for any redundancy or if I hit on a topic that has already been covered. 1 - That’s quite the name! - Where I come from Lovelace is a health system and attached to hospitals. I’m pretty sure it’s a regional thing so not everyone will immediately think of this, but it was the first thing to come to my mind when I saw the name of the ship. - “But no star would naturally pulse in the Fibonacci sequence or the first ten digits of pi.” - This is a great hook and so succinct. I like it 2 - “Ab watched as the sail folded itself into an arrangement…” Reminds me of Treasure Planet. - Maybe “sentient” beings instead of “thinking”. Non-sentient beings still think. - Do J’s people have a name? - Are the thumbs opposable? 3 - A blaring intercom seems like a design flaw. Can he not change the settings? - “Someone must be present in the here…” Not necessarily. Could be automated or programmed to parrot. I imagine pirates would do such a thing. - “quantum leap” Not only did I think of the TV show but I also don’t think it’s correct scientifically speaking either. 4 - They could 100% definitely still be unfriendly. This is too quick a dismissal on Ab’s part. - It seems strange that Ab doesn’t consider non-corporeal entities or AI. It could also be an entity like Ego AKA the Living Planet. - Once again J’s people are not named. - I’m also getting a very “one planet, one species, one culture” vibe here, and I’d stray away from that. It’s a trope that was made cliche long ago. - I feel like they should already have a universal “Rosetta Stone” ready to go. 5 - I have a pet peeve about characters physically reacting to their own internal narrative/thoughts. When Ab cringed, so did I. - If Angel the Series taught me anything it’s that having your sleep taken out is a no-no. - Is T-a-l-a-r the name of the entire species? This goes back to what I mentioned before. Humans aren’t all the same and nobody would use a blanket term like “human language” except maybe somebody who was completely ignorant of our culture. I don’t want these characters to come across as ignorant. - Info dump about the “bees” seems unnecessary considering we haven’t even seen one yet. 6 - Ego the Living Planet it is! Name even starts with E. - The B-a-r-n-a-r-d-i-a-n-s are J’s people? - Why are the B and the T capitalized but not humans? 8 - So up until this point I was enjoying the story immensely but changing the purpose of the story like this sends up a red flag. It went from a story about discovering an alien entity to a story (I assume) about how to get home. The reason this sends up a red flag is because I am now expecting this new plot line to take over and I’m afraid the original plot line is only there to set up a Deus Ex Machina later in the story, like using E’s power to send the ship home or something. Hope I’m wrong. - A lot of factions coming into play. Perhaps too many for such a short piece. 9 - “They’re clearly not the most colorful flowers on the vine...” I don’t like this since it’s obviously a take on a human adage but it’s coming from the mouth of an alien. - “I need everyone working on possible mitigation strategies…” Ab is not coming across as a strong leader. He needs to have his own ideas here and give orders accordingly. 10 - Who is Al? (Went back and saw she was mentioned once before.) 11 - Another plot line revolving around Al introduced ⅔ of the way into the story makes me feel like a] it can’t possibly have a satisfying conclusion and b] the story is trying to do WAY too much. - Nothing about Ab has shown me that he is capable of miracles. In fact as the story goes on I’m starting to dislike how reactionary he is. I haven’t seen him do anything competent or even give hint that he is a good leader yet - And there’s that Deus Ex Machina I was afraid of. 12 - “They had adopted a protocol of waiting for fifteen minutes before declaring an end to the conversation.” Why? Couldn’t they just say something like “Over and out”? - Ok. I am struggling to like Ab at this point. There is no reason for a confrontation with Al and C and Ev if Ab was doing his job as captain. He should’ve gotten in front of it immediately. 13 - Did I miss a mutiny? 15 - I mean, I guess it’s a good thing that Ab shows some backbone and initiative here, but the confrontation was really his fault and this feels like an overreaction. This reminds me of the multitude of bad bosses I’ve had in the past who get upset at their underlings because of their own incompetence. - “cocktail of drugs” I thought they didn’t use chemicals for stuff like this anymore? - I really hate the term “show don’t tell” because it’s overused and rarely correct, but it applies here. We see Al one time as basically a throw away character and then we literally never see her again despite the fact that there’s a whole plot line about her. We’re told here that she’s doing stuff but from a reader’s mindset I’m struggling to see why she exists at all. 16 - At this point you’ve already tied everything up and all that’s left is for E to send them home, and I find myself fighting the urge to skim to the end. 18 - Alright. Tied up just about exactly like I expected. The Good: I like the way you write and honestly I like the story that you’re telling--overall. You’re good at descriptions and your exposition never feels forced or info dumpy. You also have a good handle on pacing. E was introduced at the exact right moment and the plot lines have a nice narrative flow. All the plot lines (E, getting home, and Al) come together at the end, which shows an inherent understanding of story structure. The Bad: The story is predictable. Your main character is not proactive enough especially considering his position on the ship. There’s too many superfluous characters and factions. The bees serve no purpose in the story except to exist. But why not just have it be J’s people since J is a character who actually does something? Al’s plot line doesn’t work. It only serves to introduce more throw away characters. Many of the characters could be combined and make the story stronger. The person who tells Ab about Al possibly being a traitor could be the one who confronts her. The bees purpose could be given to J’s people. The Ugly: This doesn’t work as a short story. I said your exposition doesn’t feel info dumpy, but in the end some of it ends up being completely unnecessary to the story, like the bees. There’s too much set up and too little payoff. In a lot of ways it feels like a much longer story being crammed into 18 pages. Or a much shorter story being padded for length.

I'm the same way. I'm looking at it now. There used to be a way to hide any comments that were not your own but I'm digging and digging (and Googleing) and can't find that option anymore. Not sure why they would take that option away, but you guys are right. Without that option, it doesn't work.

I'm sure it's been suggested before, but why don't we all use Google Docs? Being able to comment directly on the piece would be super helpful, also seeing other people's comments and commenting on those. Just seems like it would streamline things a bit and be helpful.

I’d also like a slot please

Hey, everyone, I stayed up until like 4AM doing revisions. I don't plan on submitting it again but if anyone would be willing to give this new 3.1 version a quick read so I can figure out if I've addressed the issues well enough to move onto the rest of the draft, I'd really appreciate it. Please let me know. I, of course, won't be hurt if you can't, but I just thought I would ask. Thanks in advance!

@industrialistDragon Hey, thank you for your feedback and suggestions! Some of those I've read, some are on my lists, but there were some I had never even heard of before that sound fantastic. Thank you! My original intent was to write a YA epic fantasy, so you're not wrong, but I think what I really want is an "all ages" type of story.

@kais Thank you for your words. You've given me a lot to think about. I'm glad you said this because this is exactly what I'm aiming for. All I ask is that you bear with me and possibly help me figure out what I need to do to make it work before asking me to discontinue using the descriptors entirely. At the very least please don't think I'm ignoring the energy and time you've put into providing me feedback. I did follow the links and read the articles (the ones I hadn't read before) and I get where you guys are coming from. I do. It's why I've avoided such descriptors in the past. I appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting in to help me. And, like I said, if I get to the end of this draft and I haven't made this experiment work I will admit failure and go another direction for the next draft. And if it still doesn't work because I dug myself into too deep of a hole, then I'll chalk the book up as a learning experience and do something better for the next book. I have a clear picture in my head of what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to help people like me who have never really felt included in epic fantasy before feel included. But I don't want to alienate non-hispanic people either. There is a very real chance that I'm simply not a good enough writer to do this the way I have set out to do it, by using these tropes against themselves. Obviously, based on the feedback I've received so far, I am failing miserably. But I still want to at least try to make it work first. Does that make sense? @JWerner Thank you for reading and responding! I almost never have time to read submissions before Thursday or Friday so I totally understand how it feels to come to a thread after everything I had to say has already been said. No worries at all about the brevity. I appreciate you!

Nobility is determined by birth. Theoretically, a servant could have a "noble's" soul lantern, but they'd be seen as someone who thought too much of themselves and probably wouldn't have a job very long. Royalty is not determined by birth but instead (spoiler) certain individuals who are powerful enough to be a host for the GK. Someone can marry into a noble family, but it is rare. Thank you for pointing this out. I think my second biggest failure with this story so far is how I'm portraying L. I'm really trying to get across the fact that she really isn't right personality wise for the job. While that is obviously happening, it's having the side effect of L being unlikable and unbelievable. Everyone has the "pinprick of disembodied light" up until sometime during puberty and then their soul lanterns coalesce into something physical. And this is clearly my biggest failure. Originally I was going to depict GC a certain way and then in a flashback show him an intelligent man completely in control of his impulses and faculties (GY's treatment of him being a hold over from when they both talked smack to each other constantly) but based on all of your responses so far, I know I'm going to have to change my approach because GC is coming across as both unbelievable and offensive. Definitely not my intention. Than you for reading and for the feedback! It is very helpful. I've already started tweaking the chapter to balance the characters better (getting rid of most of L's immaturity and reworking GC's character entirely). Man I love this! For the first time in YEARS I feel like I'm becoming a better writer and that's thanks to all of you.

My plan is to italicize all Spanish words, but I get what you mean. This precedent hasn't been set in the story yet, so I see why futbol seems glaringly out of place. I'll brainstorm how to make the fact that it is our world (though generations removed from what we would consider contemporary) more clear without actually coming out and saying it. I see what you're saying. I'll contemplate a rework of the character. Masa, hominy, custard, cream, corn husk, tortilla, horchata. This is the first time I've chosen to use food with description. In the past I avoided it like the plague for all the reasons you've listed, but I decided I wanted to experiment with it, see if the trope could be broken. I'm going to stick with it at least throughout the 3.0 draft because a] it feels more authentic to me because that is how normal people in my community think/talk and b] I'm not nearly at the skill level I need to be to be published and definitely won't be until long after this book is done and in a trunk somewhere. Please don't take this to mean I'm ignoring or disrespecting your insight. I fully expect my experiment to fail but I'm going to leave that fix until a later draft. Thank you for conversing with me about this. I hope I'm not coming across as defensive or dismissive. I assure you that's not the case. In fact, I'm just thrilled to be talking to someone about my story. It's something I've never had the luxury of doing before.

I’m almost too embarrassed to admit that in the 2.0 draft it took me almost 20k words to get to the same point.

A large majority of the cast (80%+) are hispanic or indigenous. Only Gen Y in this chapter is not. Which descriptions are problematic so I can look at them? I thought I avoided physical descriptions entirely besides hair, stature and and soul lanterns unless someone was out of the ordinary to L like Gen Y. I've heard this before and don't fully understand why. This could be a background thing. I come from a huge Mexican/hispanic family and using food to describe people's skin color is the norm. I will keep what you said in mind going forward, though. It's an item that exists in their world. This is a good point. Thank you. 14 I'll reign it in. I wanted to get across that these characters are young and capable of immaturity without alienating mature readers. One of my goals with this piece is to portray a variety of nuero-atypical individuals and the problems and struggles they might face in a fantasy setting. I'll definitely look at the relationship between Gen Y and Gen C more closely going forward because I do not want the book itself to come across as making fun of these people even if there are people in the book who can and will treat them poorly because they are "different". I'm not sure I understand. Can you expand on the inferred bias? Bias toward what? Besides using honey as a comparison to Gen Y's skin color, can you pinpoint other moments when someone was treated as a minority and how the description was problematic? Thanks for the feedback, guys! I've already started to adapt the chapter based on your suggestions and I can see marked improvement.

Hey, everybody. After all your great feedback last week, I decided to start working on the 3.0 draft of my book immediately. (What you all read before was the 2.0 draft.) ~ 4,000 words

It’s not the wordiness so much as the lack of a cohesive perspective. Point A to B to C. I’m looking outside at a space lift then in a transport with no ball room to a shower without ever really feeling like I’m any of those places long enough for them to be pertinent. It feels like it’s just there to say “Dear Reader, this is SF” which is fine and if it works for a lot of people then maybe I’m off base, but I think you’re missing the chance to hook with one really cool SF thing by giving us three kinda mundane things.

I’d like to try my hand again, too, space permitting.

I've noticed we have some really great people critiquing and since I'm still getting my feet wet here I've decided the best thing I can contribute are my thoughts as a reader as I go. Hopefully you find something useful here: I had to open this on Google Docs and it reformatted to 1” margins so the page numbers might be slightly off from the original document, but hopefully not by much. Dry Run: 1 - 2 I had to read the first paragraph a couple times. The first sub-chapter reads as very jumbled. I don’t necessarily need everything streamlined but I’m having a real hard time picturing exactly what is happening and when. I hate to say it but this wouldn’t pass my One Page Test. 3 Not sure why we need the opening sub-chapter since the next one starts with a week long time jump. Okay this is reading much smoother. More streamlined. This would pass my One Page Test. Quirk is gay or at least attracted to men. “a part of him loathed it deeply, but he and that part of him didn’t speak much anymore.” - I love this. 4 I like the picture you are painting. It’s a little heavy on the info dumping but you do a good job showing us that yes, this is Earth, but an Earth from our future. Q seems like a man who knows many things and I hope this comes into play as the story goes on. 5 20 steps seems like a really long time to walk in tandem with someone without looking over. I don’t know how old Q is so this mystery man being slightly younger means almost nothing. 6 Why are they speaking English? Considering the cLife I’m surprised there’s no mention of recording and/or not recording every conversation. Seems like an employer might insist on such a thing if it was readily available. I’m as confused as Q as to B’s motivations here. I was about to point it out but Q hangs a nice little lantern on it so I’m good for the ride for now. 7 I like that he has to fight the urge to pickpocket. Before this moment he seemed a bit too worldly, the high crime type of person. But this shows his humble beginnings as it were. Really wondering where that McD’s meat comes from. At this point, with the paragraph about the state of retail, I’m wondering if there isn’t a bit too much world building going on. 8 So I had to look up McD’s to make sure it was the same McD’s I was thinking of. I love that it’s a high class establishment. I don’t like that he only orders water, though. This is more me just being curious about what kind of plates they might serve than anything. Attack of cynicism? I hope this is an actual ailment of some sort in the future. 9 What do you mean by deployed his glasses? Q likes girls, too. “…scientists must have calculated the length of her skirt for maximum impact, balancing it delicately between madam and madame.” - I love this. 10 The interaction with LD is good. These two are definitely cut of the same cloth. Feels kinda weird tacked onto the end of a chapter, though. Might work better with a break and treated like a sub-chapter? There’s some passive tense throughout that should be addressed.

Thank you all for the very helpful critiques! You've given me a lot to think about going into the second draft. I feel really good about this writing group. This is the type of feedback I've needed desperately.

1 I like opening with a letter. It has a bit of an “as you know” aspect to it that I think could be cut, though. I don’t think the “as you have no doubt surmised” bit is necessary. “what I will call the Battle of the Strait-Shore,and subsequent exile-in-captivity to the Ferrotribus to you” - This feels very clunky and sounds like you are naming the retreat. Can the path itself be demarcated? Wouldn’t the path be doing the demarcation? Hound meat. Gross. Good detail. I like the way you introduce our first description of L. The sentence tells us so much more than just a physical description. Showing us the two red lines on the hilt early. I like. I immediately disliked the idea of a mental journal but you hung a lantern on it right off the bat so I’m gonna give it a chance and see if it pays off. Still. Is there any reason she can’t have a recording device of some sort? Moving on. 2 I’m not liking the thought journal. My mind keeps harping on it and pulling me out of the story. I want it to be cool like Cooper’s tape recorder in Twin Peaks but it’s distracting. Just the name Heavenly Council makes them sound like a right group of bastards. Why isn’t her empty shirt sleeve cut/sewn/rolled/etc? 3 Is her hair a liability? Why isn’t it tied back? What does she do to get it under control? How does one groan inwardly? The raiders appearing feels more organic now, more in line with what they end up being. In the last draft, with them appearing in the lightning on the horizon I thought they were going to be powerful wizards or something and was let down. This is more grounded. Good change. The description of what a raider is could be more specific, but I like you comparing them to the nobles. You could say they are more honest than nobles about their intentions. “enough away enough” - Drop redundancy. Shirtless in a desert? No. Definitely not. Desert dwellers would be covered head to toe. I do like the description of the tattoos, but we shouldn’t be able to see them right now. 4 Need better descriptors than their sizes. Give medium-sized man something noticeable. Also, even though P is the biggest, why does she think he is the leader? Doesn’t he also look the youngest? I’m assuming the throat clear is a hint at why she was speaking in italics before. I’m interested to see why that was the case, but I am glad her dialogue is normal. Does anyone think of Dire Straits the country band? I don’t even like country. 5 This is reading much smoother than the last draft. Why is the chip being common in the desert unfortunate? 6 Lockjaw is arguably my favorite thing to come out of the Inhumans house at Marvel. Definitely peaked my interest about this nameless girl. Does she have to be nameless? Is she important to L? What kind of abuse did she suffer and did L suffer the same? Not questions that have to be answered now. 7 I have to say even though there is less action so far, this encounter is more tense than in the previous draft. L seems more competent, her attackers less stupid. “Come on! Attack me!” he shouted. - I’d cut that line completely. I don’t like calling him fist-fighter. Aren’t they all fist fighters? Could be raider. Highwayman. Or even just boy to get across how she sees him. Fist-fighter feels awkward. I can’t imagine what it might even sound like for fingernails to dig into palms so this line kinda takes me out of the story. Huh? 8 Wait. F has a club? I thought they were all unarmed? (Goes back to check.) Oh, you said unarmored. Ok. Now the fist-fighter thing makes more sense. Maybe clarify who is carrying earlier while she is assessing the danger level of each? When she slashed F you have a pretty good excuse to give us some gore without being too on the nose. I think it would add something to the character/interaction/world building. “Boo!” Love it. That’s how you use italics. I’ve never heard a the screech of a dying goat but I can sure as rust hear it in this moment. I think stopping to point out how terrifying and gruesome the moment is works against you. For one I want L to have seen and done far worse and two it undercuts the moment. 9 L doesn’t seem like the type of girl who has to muster any courage. Oh. She was afraid. Hm. I didn’t get that she was afraid until you told me right here. Yay poison! Or lack of poison. Sniffing the blade. Good detail. 10 The scratches are only a week old. Now that makes sense. I’m not as bothered by fist-fighter anymore. 11 - 14 This last bit flows much better now. P doesn’t annoy me as much as L doesn’t break character in the name of banter. The wound is clearer to me now, too. The no named and now one eyed girl. Is this S mentioned on p9? Overall, a good re draft. Much more actualized. The setting was more concrete. The fight scene felt more real. My biggest qualm I already mentioned. I understand the journal aspect. It’s a great literary device that I myself use but I just can’t get behind the make believe journal aspect. Is there any way to incorporate some sort of recording device? Even magical?

Hey, everyone. This is the first 3,100 words of my WIP. Sorry for sending it a bit early, but I'm not 100% sure that I'll have access to a computer tomorrow. Thanks in advance!

I don’t feel I can contribute much more than has already been said especially coming this late to the story but I did read it!

Not sure how strict the rule is but my best days to critique are Sat/Sun and my worst days are Mon/Tues. So, if anyone wants to submit a bit early...

Here are my dry read comments (apologies if some of this has already been covered): 0 Dang. Looks like I missed a lot. Robot dragons? Awesome. 1 - 2 This was probably explained earlier, but why are E’s pronouns plural? With today’s political climate I’m assuming it’s a gender identity thing. 3 The statue’s eyes shifting was a great detail. This in addition to the very tangible discovery of E’s mother sucked me into the world even though I did not read what came before this. 4 “They couldn’t bring their parent’s back, but they could avenge them.” This is great. E had already shown me they could be proactive, but this line solidified it for me. Good job. 5 What kind of perfume? 6 “... their breath caught on thorny vines of emotion snaking through their throat.” I love this. The tapestry and hidden wall hiding the hallway beyond is a great detail. Okay the perfume smells like lilac. Cool. Small prescription, put this detail/description when the perfume is first mentioned and then here say she followed the scent of lilac. Should make the moment more immediate and the reader will feel more connected, more in the know. 7 I’m a little confused by the logistics of this hallway at this point. I guess I assumed it was a secret passageway but it no longer seems that’s the case? 8 - 12 Not much to say here. I felt a little bit lost since I don’t know what came before but even so the scene played out well enough. Besides some technical issues, I thoroughly enjoyed this excerpt. There were times when I didn’t feel like I even needed to have read the previous chapters because the chapter was so immediate. Reminded me of Bujold’s Vorkosigan books. The sheer momentum pulled me on. This is something I struggle greatly with in my own writing so kudos.

@kais I did, thank you!

Hi everyone. I’m 100k words into the 2.0 draft of my WIP (which is shaping up to be no less than 250k words in the end) so I’ll never not have something to submit. Whenever there is room for the newbie please include me, but I totally understand if I get pushed for someone with more seniority. I’m just happy to be a part of the group and hope my amateur insight can help everyone at least a little bit.