Greywatch

His hatred is something he's working on to change; his anger is righteous and correct. EDIT: And to clarify, the three do not get the same reaction from the radon, except perhaps Shallan. There aren't threads and threads being made about the Kholins' classism, exclaiming how inappropriate they're being. The large portion of fan attention on this issue is focused on Kaladin.

Nope, it doesn't. And as a personal request, let's not quote MLK so far from his cultural context; there are plenty of his quotes we can quote that are less nice and broad. I find it telling that the anger of the darkeyes gets more of a "this is wrong!" reaction than Dalinar and Adolin and Shallan's thoughts and actions, as people in these privileged positions who thoughtlessly are classist in the books. But they have the privilege of being calm and reasonable about this subject, whereas Kaladin's anger is seen as hysterical and unreasonable. I'll use an analogy to explain my reasoning. I and my boss are angry at each other. I tell him, "you're fired!" Nothing happens. He tells me, "you're fired!" and I am escorted from the building. Were our actions equal? Did we do each other the same harm? No. Absolutely not. I was not capable of firing my boss; the company would laugh if I'd tried. On the other hand, it was very easy for him to fire me. But our words were the same! We were both in the wrong! And yet, if someone tried to claim that what I did was as bad as what he did to me, even just bad at all, that claim would be pretty insulting. Calling what I did "firing him" doesn't align with the reality.

By equating Kaladin's words to the harm he's been paid out, it diminishes the impact of what is so bad about racism. His suspicion is completely earned; based on what he'd been through, he was given multiple reasons to find lighteyes untrustworthy. The impact to the lighteyes Kaladin dislikes is negligible, it's essentially nothing. Hurt feelings is the extent of it, as I've said. I've called him prejudiced in this thread, which covers all the things you mentioned in your posts, but racism is reserved for institutional, systemic power.

@Nellac A "what if it turns around" theoretical doesn't make the current situation any less what it is. It hasn't happened, and it's not on the table. If that were to happen and all institutional power flows away from the lighteyes and to the darkeyes, then the darkeyes would be enforcing the class system and I would be saying that lighteyes can't be racist against darkeyes. Hypotheticals don't change the logic. The experiences darkeyes have is not the same as lighteyes. Calling something racist is something many people find quite a serious accusation. By using the same word for Kaladin's anger and for the actions of people who did all of that to Kaladin, is calling Kaladin's anger immoral and illegitimate. Kaladin's anger is justified and righteous, even as he is letting go of his hatred. Calling him racist poisons the water; it implies by every definition brought up in this thread that Kaladin is wrong to be angry, because we all know being a racist is bad. He is not wrong to be angry and his suspicion and distrust of lighteyes is earned.

@Toaster Retribution And I consider a definition outside of systemic racism too broad, insultingly so, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that. It puts the anger of the oppressed on the same level as the oppressors, treating both as equally bad, and that seems both incorrect and condescending in my view. Keeping it more in world of Roshar than real life, no one has been able to claim that Kaladin has anything more than a personal dislike. When he dislikes lighteyes and says something about it, people get mad and hurt, but the worst that happens to the lighteyes is they go, jeez, that darkeyes was such a jerk! And feel whatever hurt or angry feelings they want to feel. And that's the end of the impact. When a lighteyes dislikes Kaladin, the worst that could happen is... well, what actually happened to him. The Vorin church teaches the lighteyes are on top and they should be trusted; his society doesn't treat everyone equally, and many are treated worse, ie. the darkeyes. Kaladin's prejudice stems from repeated personal experience. It is impossible for Kaladin to be racist against lighteyes. What I find deeply interesting is how angry or condescending people get about Kaladin being this angry, as if anyone else wouldn't think what he thinks given his experiences. @Vissy I completely agree, especially about Shallan. Her thoughts and actions towards anyone of a lower rank than her are deeply classist/racist, and I find I do not enjoy reading her for this reason.

Oh the contrary, Kaladin's opinion is similar to marginalized groups irl, and him being on the marginalized side of his society, Kaladin is not racist or classist. He has no structural power to enforce against the people higher than him. If a lighteyes doesn't like Kaladin, they can use the caste system against Kaladin to punish him, especially more than they would be able to against a fellow lighteyes. When Kaladin doesn't like a lighteyes, they punish him. He loses in both scenarios. Acting as though Kaladin hurting a lighteyed person's feelings is in any way equivalent to a lighteyes also hurting his feelings, disregarding his life, enslaving him, pressing a red hot brand to his face, being on the bridge crews... Kaladin wasn't born or raised with this opinion of lighteyes, either, it wasn't a product of society. Kaladin is prejudiced and getting over it, but it was multiple repeated circumstances of extending his trust and having it thrown in his face that got him there. It stems from actual mistreatment, that he had no recourse against, and mistreatment that was legal and considered the right of the lighteyes who did it. I consider systemic racism the most accurate definition, and some people say racism when they mean prejudice. The worst thing he can do, if following the rules of the caste system, is hurt someone's feelings, and he could be punished for even that much. Kaladin is not racist. He experiences resentment and anger at a group of people he's repeatedly had abuse and hurt him, personally, people he thought he could trust and believe in. His feelings are entirely legitimate and he's suspicious of the lighteyes he meets, but it hasn't stopped him from realizing that people like the Kholins are still worthwhile, and given his circumstances and life story, the fact that he takes a while to trust them is completely reasonable.

I said on a Stormlight Shardcast way back when about how I think most people would think and act like Moash. I certainly found him relatable, in an uncomfortable way, that I found challenging. I have to deal with my anger about how Kaladin's arc is ending up with, if not forgiveness, then some kind of letting go, in a way that feels unfair. I frequently am annoyed whenever someone claims that Kaladin's anger and hatred is unreasonable - no, it isn't, it's perfectly reasonable. I want to hold onto it, even wallow in it. I get Moash's rage deeply, and that's why I despise it so much. It's the point where I have to grapple with Brandon's personal philosophy the most, the part where it seems clearest to me that this is a book written by someone whose philosophy doesn't 100% align with mine, and also the part where I do the most self-reflection to consider if I do agree with what Brandon is saying about hatred. I don't want to be like Moash, but if I hold onto my rage, is that a guarantee I'm going to end up doing something unforgivable, or must I let go of it to be the kind of person I admire more (ie. Kaladin)?

Ha, it was me. I promise it is possible to edit in a quote - it's not super obvious, but the way I do it is to write what I want in the box at the bottom of the page, but instead of pressing send to create a new post, I copy it and paste it when editing the post I want to add it to. The formatting should stay. Interesting rec list! It does seem to be a big list of everything without much commentary on how that representation might appear, but i imagine that is the purpose. I might not go to game of thrones for rep, but there are some excellent things on there at first scan. Apparently there's a sff book coming out this year, Bonds of Brass, that I've been told is an excellent mlm story. I'm looking forward to it!

I'm excited by the idea of Adolin becoming a Radiant. Sorry to say, but in SA, the Radiant orders and powers are way more interesting than having Normal Guy not having Radiant powers; it doesn't take away from his character, and somehow, having Radiant powers doesn't make anyone else's arc less interesting. This is what I'm here for, to be honest. Whatever's going on with Maya is already interesting and stoking ideas across the fandom, so I can't waaait to see what book 4 brings on this front.

I am really interested in Dustbringers, and it was a 50/50 between them and the Lightweavers for what I thought I might actually be.

Brandon: Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

Renarin is definitely going to be a major character in books 6-10; we know this from Brandon. His story is being saved for the second half of the series; he hasn't been robbed. It was always going to be this way. We have multiple statements from Brandon on this.

@Config2 I agree a lot! I especially was struck by the idea that Kaladin and Syl's relationship wouldn't change that much if they became romantic, which I think I have to agree with. They already have a great relationship.

Even as someone who doesn't enjoy Shallan myself, I think Karger is on the money with their suspicion that it is female characters who get this treatment, and it is a fair statement of how we read books. Listing all the female characters we do like doesn't erase the fact that it's still only female characters who get this particular reaction. Even when listing disliked male characters by comparison, the scope or the negative emotions is so huge, I feel it gets used as a "gotcha! See, it's not because she's a woman!" Of course, I know I have a perhaps unpopular opinion that, at some point, it's on us as the readers to be aware of that; that the way the author wrote them is not 100% responsible for the way we react to them. I just notice when it's said about a female character "the author wrote them to be annoying!" but they really weren't... I have to examine myself and reconsider if the author really meant that. Annoying is subjective, otherwise everyone would find Shallan annoying! But not everyone does, and therefore, it's a reader opinion, and not a fact.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of y'all here, especially @The traveller - for my personal spin on it, I never liked the Kaladin/Shallan thing because I never felt that she actually respected him. Every interaction with him was like a game to her, and the kind of game that you can never assume is always going to be taken pleasantly. Like she always seemed to find it amusing when he was irritated, and playful hostility is just something I do not find cute. Attraction comes and goes, but if the other person isn't showing signs that they respect you and your feelings, I can't get on board, and Shallan never let up on that, not even in the chasm scene. @lccaseiro58 Interesting points about Tarah, I'll have to watch out for that in my rereads!

I personally don't find what Dalinar did irredeemable, but that is certainly my opinion, not a fact. I think it's safe to say that I wasn't as bothered by the Blackthorn as a lot of other readers were, but that's only one part of it. To me the other part is that Dalinar is extremely self-reflective and willing to actually face up to it and change. I find the concept of trying to "make up for things" somewhat repugnant, especially when it's on the level of death, which is something that can't be given back, but I respect Dalinar way more for being able to admit that and moving forward so that his future words and actions will be to prevent things like that. Not pretending you can turn back the clock, but accepting the current situation and doing the best to change the future situation. Morality and redemption and all of these big ideals are subject to everyone's individual moral compass, of course, YMMV.

Being enslaved in and of itself would be reason enough, I should think. It doesn't matter how nice a slaver is, if they're enslaving you.

I completely agree with this, and with @HoidsRock. Amaram was simply not the kind of man he said he was, and we were given plenty of ways in the text to understand this.

Hmm, I think Dalinar or Kaladin, but not both. I think Adolin is in the running, but I'm 50/50 on it (I genuinely thought Adolin might die in OB before we had the book). And definitely more of the Heralds.

As in everything in this conversation, it depends. Are both parties aware they're about to start fighting? Are they both prepared for a duel? Are we assuming that Kaladin is not capable of creating a projectile weapon with Syl? An unprepared gunman against a swordsman sprinting towards them is different from both of them standing at the ready raring to go at the sound of the gunshot. I just think there are way too many possible variables for me to say who would win flat out, so it's not fun for me to bother with the specific cases - a specific case is just a particular set of variables, which could be totally different in the next specific case.

Just a small note of pedantry, equidistant does not have a specific length implied. Equidistant means there there is a third party or a third point, and the two subjects are equally distant from it. If you were picturing a particular distance, you just need to say that particular distance, like twenty feet, say. Saying that two people are equidistant is not correct.

I love the idea! Hell, I'll ship it. Nice introduction to the Kadash/Dalinar, I'd never thought of it before!

Ah, then I'll consider myself exempt from the rest of this, then.

I don't think her being unreliable means that we have to assume it's always false. That's not how reading unreliable narrators works.

Yes, I definitely agree that she's hard to pin down, and with the Truths being the only ones that are different from Oaths (ie. Lightweavers evidently are free to change, possibly making their past Truths no longer true without ruining their progression - because they're not Oaths) - it just means she's not straightforward. To me, she is the most unreliable narrator in the whole series.