Greywatch

Okay. This is super quote-heavy and very long, both about what Pattern looks like at the beginning of their relationship, and how Pattern is doing throughout WoR and OB. Looking for evidence of Pattern's damaged state, as seen through Shallan's perception. WoR, in the first few chapters, we can see what the damage looks like as Pattern "wakes up". I didn't want to quote so many paragraphs - it's basically all of Pattern's first few chapters, where he's non-verbal, just a shape, and slowly begins to talk and express himself more and more. We see this in reverse with Kaladin and Syl in WoR, as we get to see what her fading back out looks like and it's similar to Pattern at the beginning. Just a shape on the walls, on the ground, barely able to say words. This form of Pattern has never shown itself again. Pattern has never gone non-verbal since we meet him in WoR, has never drifted without being able to answer Shallan, and never gets "stupid" like we see Syl when Kal+Syl's bond frays. Shallan herself only zones out/dissociated in response to him in WoR when he's trying to get her to remember, and she doesn't ignore him in OB - though sometimes she doesn't answer him, which altogether has a totally different vibe. At the end of WoR, we don't see Pattern being more damaged - in fact, their bond moves forward, even though Shallan is dissociating and trying not to think about it. After the beginning/their re-introduction, Pattern pushes her to remember, and she pushes back. In WoR, they are still progressing, even though Shallan dissociates, pushes back So, if in WoR, Shallan can ignore and push back herself and her bond with Pattern is still moving along, that's the case for OB. Too much irrelevant stuff, etc, etc, but Pattern is present and talk-y in Kholinar - no indication that he's in any way growing weaker/diminished/being ignored by Shallan. He is present and speaks his normal amount - every couple chapters he has his usual amount of lines. Pattern continues to be normally present through the rest of the aftermath of Kholinar - no sign of him being in any reduced. Just that one line in chapter 77 about him being drowsy, and the rest of the time showed worry or noted that what Shallan was doing with Veil was wrong, but was himself. Humming and buzzing his commentary, as per usual. tl;dr We see at the beginning of WoR what damage to their bond would look like. Pattern being non-verbal, unable to talk, huge lack of understanding of any human mores and needs to "re-learn" things. We see the exact same thing happen when Syl's bond with Kaladin is damaged - less talking, less understanding, general spaciness. When the bond is damaged, they understand less and seem more child-like, etc. There is one line in OB, chapter 77, that shows Shallan wasn't following her Ideals, with Pattern being drowsy. Though Shallan doesn't want to face it, she sees this. There is no indication to show that she is ignoring/not seeing other times when Pattern is being damaged. Especially because she does note when Pattern is worried about her alters, and she knows exactly what it's about, but doesn't want to deal with it. Shallan sure can be an unreliable narrator, but we have every indication that she can and does see what Pattern is really experiencing, and her dissociating out of reality bits are pretty much kept in WoR - not OB. Pattern is present and has acting/speaking lines a consistent amount throughout OB. Roughlyyyy every 1-4 chapters, pretty much the same as Syl. (If you're curious, the biggest gap for Syl not being mentioned/present in OB is fourteen consecutive chapters (between 46 to 60.)) Pattern has never been much of a talker, but having gone through both books today making this post, Pattern only grows in (1) how often he talks (2) how much he talks (3) his understanding increases and never decreases; never has what happened to Syl where he loses ground (4) shows more and more personality and (5) his relationship with Shallan has grown from Shallan's barely hidden hostility and his certainty that she will kill him, to the concern and friendship they show at the end of Shadesmar into Part 5, which is the most we've seen them actually really care about each other, expressing worry about the other's well-being, etc. If it turns out when we start SA4 that their bond really is damaged, then I guess I'll dig in again to see where that happened, but from what I've read, I just don't see it. Their bond has also grown stronger, and they really care about each other like we've never seen up to this point. I saw the stuff about Adolin dying, and etc and I do want to weigh in, but I need to have supper. Maybe let this one sit a while before I get myself going again on Adolin. Ta!

If the limit of the impact is "they're really sad", I'm not sure that's good enough. It'd need to happen in such a way that the manner of death not only made them sad, but also changed their actions/goals/paths in some way. And if that part of it is still in the air, then it's back to being a choice that's just as good as leaving him alive - "as good as" meaning it's arguable. Brandon is a planner - whatever's happening next, Brandon already has it written down somewhere (or has a strong plan and will have it written down in the next year as he plots SA4 and 5).

Yeah... I just can't see it as stagnant. Brandon has been so good at portraying depression, and recovery and healing is never a straight line. It's not regression, not in the sense of undoing his progress. But it lapses and moves forward, it moves up and down, he's going to feel great, he's going to feel terrible... but it's all forward motion. Depression is frustrating, and it may well be like this for the rest of Kaladin's life. To be honest, one of the best things I think Kaladin could do for his own healing right now is to fail, to not be there for somebody, and have them still be okay. Kaladin has been treating himself like the only one who can Do It (for whatever doing the thing is in a given situation, generally life-or-death), and beating himself up for failures, but it'd be so good when/if he can get to that point where he can recognize he doesn't have to be there 100% of the time, he doesn't have to "win" all the time to be deserving of happiness and self-worth. Nine times out of ten, Shallan puts my hackles up whenever she interacts with Kaladin, but that's getting into it a bit. Personally, I thought Kaladin and Adolin were golden in OB, I loved every single ... everything about them in OB.

Kaladin had a great arc, and I know some people around the Internet didn't love it. All about letting go and giving up and learning that it's all still going to be okay. I just really liked it; imo, the climax of it was over Adolin's body, unable to reach Dalinar, unable to say the words, unable to help... and life still went on. Just loved it.

Yeah, it's definitely a possibility. Just based on the overall tone, themes of all three characters' arcs and all, it's just not something I buy. (Again - really interested to see what happens in this year gap.)

Alright; lacking the other signs of this situation we've seen in the past, it's partial speculation.

I would say that the entire point of saying oaths and meaning them is that they are not just words. It's only speculation to say that her bond with Pattern is suffering; when their bond was in real danger in the past, Shallan always noted Pattern diminishing or his distress, which isn't present here. I'd be interested to see what happens in SA4 in the course of their relationship, but there isn't enough evidence in OB to match previous instances of real damage to their bond, so I really don't see the marriage as damaging whatsoever.

My stance is that as part of the fanfiction community since the early 2000s, I feel quite confident in saying that it was originally used in the context of fanfiction and the devolution of its use for characters in original published fiction came much after the term had been established - usually also as a comment on the quality of the writing, since comparisons to self-insert fanfiction has never been considered a compliment.

It was and has been.historically used for self inserts above all others. It started to be misapplied to female characters in their own canon but that came later.

Who was a self insert.

And yet Shallan still took the marriage oaths and treated them seriously, and knows that everybody in her life takes oaths seriously and she'd definitely break the oaths holding her in good standing with people she cares about just to show us that she can. Definitely would fly well with Kaladin who himself is extremely close to the oath-keeping side of the Radiants. It would damage her relationships and personal/family reputation but I'm sure it's fine.

Mary Sue is a made up term used to denigrate female self insert characters in fanfiction back in the 90s/early 2000s and ever since its inception, the definition has constantly shifted to accommodate whichever kind of character the speaker dislikes. It's an archaic term that has a hundred different definitions and really useless for explaining why somebody might dislike a character. It's definitely useless for defining an in-canon character written by the actual author.

Completely broken down is not the only way. The level that Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan have experienced is not the minimum requirement; they are main characters and their issues are likewise central to the story and personally devastating, but we've had plenty of side and interlude Radiant characters who don't go this far to qualify. There's Teft... but there's also Lopen. For example.

I'm just saying that something so outside of what was said to be possible for dead spren has happened, and that to say that Maya isn't being revived - whether that's 100% restoration or not - seems like a take that deliberately ignores all the facts around the entire plotline. It's not speculation to say that she's being revived - she's already been revived some. It's a fact.

And yet even with the significance of this, so much so that the SF commented on it being unusual, still nothing approaching the level of consciousness that Maya has shown.

Or, maybe the seriousness of the Recreance is used to underscore how important what's happening with Maya really is. After all, no other spren is showing signs of this, and gosh if we haven't yet seen the in-world reaction to Maya waking up. The impossibility of this situation is why it doesn't make any sense to me that this is just a wink from the author? Why would he make such an important plot point happen just for an easter egg? He wouldn't.

A deadeye spren named herself, started speaking, expressed emotion, expressed preference for Adolin, and was able to be summoned before the ten heartbeats. There's lots to say that Maya is truly being revived.

To be pedantic back, it's not a compliment only here, on this board, as we might possibly perceive the reaction to one specific thread. It is not an insult in other parts of the fandom; just a statement about whether or not like they like to enthuse about fictional relationships. I am also reacting with my experience, coming from a place in fandom where it's as unremarkable as saying that you prefer to wear shoes when you go out, and it encompasses everything from writing novel-length stories and/or dissertations about a fictional pairing all the way to thinking "hey, they're really good together!" It's not a dirty word everywhere, and even here not everyone will treat it that way. Avoiding the label because you truly feel it's inaccurate is one thing; avoiding it because the label of shipper is not a good one on 17S is kind of a whole other animal entirely. Edit: Funny, Storms!

That's certainly a definition but not the only one. In other parts of the internet, shipping is anything that falls under being really enthusiastic about a fictional ship. It's not a slur, even if someone says the words with disgust. I get that the reaction to it around this parts feels really not great, but slurs really are reserved for words/phrases that are racist, homophobic, misogynist, etc.

Shipping is actually the word for it, having been the word for it since the x-files. Whatever the opinion of people who don't like it, it's definitely not a slur.

I would argue that Venli couldn't and wouldn't have ever become a radiant without the loss of Eshonai. You don't have to agree, but it seemed to me that Venli might've still been on board with everything that happened if it weren't for losing Eshonai.

I strongly doubt it. Venli is now the only Listener/parsh who can pass for a Singer, a Listener KR who can spy on the enemy - a plot point that Eshonai couldn't have had, as the Fused/spren on that side knew that Eshonai wasn't going to stay with them. Venli, on the other hand, was only kept safe from being Fused because of her prominence and deeds in WoR, terrible as they were.

Yeah. I found the context and timing of how they were dealt with in the book totally complete and a good resolution of the arc. Bringing up the chasm scene is outside the bounds of OB's arcs, and though the books are all one series, the individual books also have their own individual, complete arcs. In OB, the context of the scenes between Adolin and Shallan is a full and complete arc. Seeing as other readers in this thread also use their experience of relationships to explain their reaction to the relationships, I'm going to continue to do so. "Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR." Shallan also describes Adolin as a whitespine and Kaladin as beautiful in an artistic way, so I don't buy this. Personally, Shallan seeing Kaladin as rugged and scary-in-a-force-of-nature kind of way evidence that she doesn't see him accurately and I really dislike Shallan's perception of Kaladin. Kaladin and Shallan are both in different places when in the chasms and at the end of OB. In the chasms, Kaladin is at one of his lowest places and Shallan is in the throes of repression (my reasoning being, her character ends with her admitting to Pattern that she killed her mom, which re-contextualizes her character throughout WoR knowing that it was leading to her admitting a truth she'd been repressing). Their scene in the chasms plays as two characters realizing they have some things in common, and Kaladin's comparing her to Tien comes hand in hand with humanizing her. He realizes that she's someone he could learn to care about. The scene at the end of OB comes at the end of an arc where both of them think about each other but ultimately decide not to act on that. They had very few interactions, and what interactions they did have did not move their relationship forward. Though they have a base similarity in being mentally ill, a kinship they found out in WoR, their interactions in OB only reinforce that they don't understand each other's issues. They think about each other, but in real situations, real interactions, it falls short. They don't work. He realizes that she could still be good for him in some ways, but only as a friend. Where Shallan was emotionally available in the chasms for the first comparison, Shallan makes a firm choice for the second comparison. The context of the situation changes the meaning of the words. I disagree because I neither think it's stereotypical or sexist, and yes, I very much do think it matters to many female readers that don't have to have a woman solving all of her issues completely isolated and alone. I, personally, am really bothered by that trope, because I've seen "the strong woman" trope used badly by many male writers who use it an excuse to not write a compelling story for a woman. Like, why care about a woman's issues, because she's got it handled. No need to slow down the plot, no need to try and understand what she's going through, the male love interest doesn't have to worry his little head about her issues because she's got it handled. I hate that so much. And on the flip side, I adore when male characters are written as empathetic and understanding, especially from the character who would be the worst version of the golden player boy in another, worse author's hands. I can understand your perspective, but I'll continue to insist it's not automatically sexist. My basic point is that Shallan doesn't have lines about, wow I'm so glad I'm marrying Adolin because he tells me what I hear, I'm so glad to marry someone who helps me deal with my issues. They have a strong emotional moment where Adolin is there for Shallan during a critical moment; and then in a separate scene, Shallan ignores Kaladin and chooses Adolin; and then in a separate scene Shallan has the scene about reflecting on the upcoming marriage. They're all important to the settling of the relationship, but it's not like it's in the text that Shallan is marrying him because she feels dependent on him. Even with the "without you I fade" line (which was played for laughs one sentence later) that's not how Shallan treats it and it's not how the narrative treats it.

Yeah, I think we fundamentally disagree on pretty much all the above points. The big moment for Shallan and Adolin not being the wedding, but the emotional sharing before that, which still falls in the category of "end of the book". Adolin knowing about Veil for about one line in the book and we really don't know how he's actually going to treat Shallan and the alters. It being totally fine that she hasn't told Adolin literally 100% of her stuff and that she hasn't doesn't undermine the relationship. Shallan's people don't burn glyphs actually, which comes up before the big duel in WoR. And I don't find the Kaladin comparisons... compelling? The only thing that's interesting is the standing/sitting thing, but I don't agree that people in love have to share the same interests or more similar personalities, that's not a thing in real life, and it rings totally false that that's a big reason Shalladin works better than Shadolin. Shadolin rings a lot truer to couples I know in real life, and Shalladin really doesn't. I don't see it being redundant at all. Setting up an early situation which mirrors a later situation is foreshadowing. Foreshadowing isn't repetitive - or doesn't have to be. She reminds him of Tien in the chasms vs she reminds him of Tien at the end of OB have completely different emotional contexts. Literature in general is made up of similar situations being brought up in different contexts - and the character is found in what the differences are. The difference in how Kaladin thinks of it even though the words are technically the same is not a repetition. Kaladin also doesn't need to be the star of every single book, and I don't think Kaladin was useless in this book. I really dislike the idea that because one can't create a list with tangible successes mean he was useless or pointless. Sometimes the arc is not satisfying to some readers, but doesn't mean it isn't there. Sometimes you fail and you don't get what you want, what you need... But you carry on anyway. Sometimes you need help to keep going. Sometimes you can't do it by yourself. All absolutely things that are in line for Kaladin's character development. Shallan is also in a different situation from Dalinar. Her issues are different, they can't be treated the same way as Dalinar's, and nor should we react to them in the same way as Dalinar's. Dalinar doesn't have a dissociative disorder, and his specific issues are not about thinking of himself as a monster (even though we think of younger Dalinar so, he is not occupied with this in the present). Dalinar already has emotional support. He knows that his family cares about him, he has supports. Shallan is starting with much less than Dalinar and she's not in the same place in her journey that Dalinar is. Shallan was only able to admit the truth about her past one book ago, and in OB, she moves through the reality of 'it's real and it doesn't have to mean that I'm terrible'. In SA4, she'll be even further along and her arc will be something different. I completely disagree that she should have to do it alone, because Dalinar and Kaladin certainly don't do it alone. Right now, Shallan is in a specific place, in her journey that is much different from Dalinar and Kaladin's, that can't be compared the exact same "because they're all mentally ill" - no. That's unfair to all of them. They all need different things at different times. Sorry, but I cannot get on board with this comparison. My point being that is only one scenario. There are plenty of other terrible and sexist scenarios that are not about single women. If Shallan was the only female character in the series, sure, but all of the things about a woman alone, I can answer by pointing to Jasnah. Shallan is not the only female character, and she shouldn't be expected to carry the weight of answering all sexist tropes as if she was the only one. She's not, and many tropes are answered not just by Shallan, but by the weight of all the female characters. Brandon doesn't have this play out for all his female character ever - not even all his female characters in Stormlight! If I can answer the reasoning by being able to point to another female character in the same series who doesn't have this situation applied to her, then... I just cannot agree that this is sexist. Jasnah, Navani, Lift, Evi, Rysn, Malata... do not fall into this, either. Again, only if Shallan was the only one, and Brandon did this. But she's mentally ill, when her entire arc is about not being able to admit her troubles to the man she loves, not able to admit that she needs help and support, and then she receives that... I think that's pretty great. That is a pretty big moment. No disagreement here. I don't think her getting married to receive help is what happened at all, and I just... wow, yeah. Her getting help and her getting married were treated separately in the text. Her emotional support scene with Adolin was separated by time and distance in the text from the pre-wedding when she's thinking about whether she's sure that it's Adolin she wants to be with. I can't agree with linking the two concepts. They were treated as two separate things in the relationship arc, and it really bothers me the wording of it as though the only reason she got married to Adolin was to receive the emotional support. It feels like a deliberate misreading of the tone in order to make Shallan and Adolin's relationship seem bad.

Okay, cool, so we've found our impasse.