Greywatch

The wedding was in the past tense for Dalinar's final scene in the book; it's already happened.

I think my absolute favourite thing about Shallan is how she can so clearly show the best version of someone to a person. My favourite scenes with her are always when she draws someone, and they see it and are overcome. "That's what I look like?" Her ability to reach that and give such a valuable gift to others is where she is at her best.

Where Elhokar's journey was going or not going, anyone deserving redemption is an oxymoron. The entire point of redemption is that if you're getting it, you don't deserve it. Whether or not someone should be allowed to try to atone is another conversation entirely. Personally, I think most everyone should be allowed the option, if they feel so strongly that they want to do better and if possible to undo what they're done. It doesn't mean anyone has to accept their good actions, or think of them as canceling out bad actions! But they certainly ought to be able to make the attempt.

To be more accurate than that, it's not just facts, it's about finding the facts that both parties value and have in common. The point goddess was making that it can't just be plain refuting the point with "this fact is where you're wrong". The effective argument in the example still changed (1) the facts that were presented and (2) attitude from competitive to cooperative. It also only works well if there are no winners or losers.

I found Adolin really works for me as a reaction character, as in when things happen, I look to him to see how he reacts to it. I always find it entertaining, and whenever I'm worried he's going to react badly... Like, for me, I can't describe what a pleasant relief it is to have the dudebro character be so consistently good-natured. I realize this is exactly the point that other people find boring, but after a lifetime of being a woman reading other mainstream sff, and being expected to roll with heroic male characters say/do some really hinky garbage... I'm so glad Adolin has never made me feel like that. He takes up less story time than a main character, but he's not a minor character, either, so I've taken to calling him a supporting main. I don't think I'd go so far as others have and call him the boring normal - but I do enjoy seeing the guy with no superpowers happily rolling with the giant magic apocalypse plot he's been thrown into. He has no choice but to try and do his part; since so much of his family (which he is so enthusiastic about! I love how enthusiastic he is about how much he clearly likes, respects, and loves his family members, thank you Evi) is so central to what's happening, and he doesn't even think about peacing out, not a bit of "well, looks like you all have this!" In WoK, I think Brandon did well to set him up as a compare and contrast against Dalinar, and there's been that tension between "he seems primed to take over after Dalinar" vs "he's not/never going to be the man Dalinar is" which has been here for all three books and I'm on pins and needles seeing what's going to happen by the end of book 5 - which honestly, is when I'm expecting something to happen to Dalinar. He shines in his relationship with Renarin, and built one of my favourite relationships in the genre with Kaladin and what they have together as friends. He never felt to me like he takes advantage of his position, and seems to me thoughtful about his own current actions and future position. I really appreciate that he had the time to actually have the thoughts about whether he has a place in this world where his family and loved ones are all superheroes before Mayalaran happened, and I think if Adolin's arc is going to pick up into him gaining superpowers as well, I'm glad at least any page time was spent on him realizing that he just has to accept his position as the non-powers guy. I feel like it's tougher for him, because he so genuinely likes all these superpowered folks around him, he doesn't even allow himself the option of being bitter about it. Why be bitter if it's his father/brother/wife/aunt/best friend, who he clearly really likes? I thought it was a high mark of his character that he doesn't feel bitter about it. Just... maybe sad and uncertain. I'm about ready to drop, but I really want to go longer on this, so perhaps I'll pick it up in the morning!

I think that's really more of a matter of what kind of fans get together. There are lots of "superfans" who don't care about realmatics or magic system theorizing at all.

I'm honestly excited to see Szeth and where his arc goes next, which is not something I ever thought I'd say about him. I feel like finally getting him away from... all that, got him to slow down enough that I feel like I have a better read on the kind of person he is now.

@Meghan1Q84 I don't think this is what you intended, but you got me thinking about Kaladin/Szeth, and suddenly am really interested to see how they get along in SA4.

Agreed - the first oath can have many interpretations, and the main takeaway from this should be that what really matters about the first oath is if a spren agrees with your interpretation of it.

I think that plotline would do well to highlight the most interesting relationship Adolin has - his relationship to Dalinar. It already is a strong case to compare/contrast; sometimes Adolin is clearly what Dalinar sees when he thinks that Adolin is a better man than he is. The way it happened, we see that Adolin is also his father's son in this way, too. I can't believe that Dalinar would - or could - judge Adolin for a wrathful spirit, but certainly an element that Adolin has to face up to not being as good as man as Dalinar thinks he is. Whether he admits it to anyone else - well, I wish we weren't right at the beginning of the wait for SA4.

I absolutely don't disagree with you - there is a definite appeal there! But based on how Kaladin reacts when any one of Bridge Four puts themselves into danger on the battlefield, I feel like he might have a very difficult time trusting them to be okay, and letting them go do their own (sometimes dangerous) things without him being there. Or maybe in SA4 and 5, he'll really start to accept he's not responsible for every time a loved one gets hurt. I hope so...

Don't be sorry! I very much enjoyed reading this post. I wish I had something more intelligent to contribute, but all I can say is if you have more on this, I'd love to read more.

Hey Rainier, I merged your posts together. Remember that the plus sign button is Multi-Quote, and you can edit your posts to add things in, so as to avoid double-posting.

I was zooming through it too fast the first time for emotions to really sink in, but Elhokar's death really forced me to pause for a few minutes. I didn't even think I cared that much, so it was a surprise as much as it was a tragedy that I just... wow. It really got me. Edit: Oh, I totally forgot! I can't believe I forgot this part. At the very end, when Taln was lucid for a bit, and he started talking about how wonderful it was that it had been 4500 years, that it given the world so much time, the time that they needed... Yeah, I cracked there. Actual tears. We don't deserve Taln.

I don't see it, but I can't deny it would be a pretty horrifying shock for them!

I don't believe it follows that he never cared about them, or that he's "a sociopath"... He just decided he cared about his own anger more. Other people on this forum have reading comprehension, too, and there's more than one way to read a text, so let's be careful with our tones.

I had this thought, too! Being that it's the apocalypse, and all of a sudden social consequences have lost a lot of their bite...? This seems like Dalinar and his family have started to significantly and consciously tear down the walls of Alethi gender norms, and Vorinism doesn't have a lot of power to do more than excommunicate them. I feel like Vorinism has lost a lot of power over the course of OB, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised in SA4 we find out they have more clout than I thought.

Oh yeah, the Battle of the Tower is my second-runner up. It has the betrayal, it has Adolin roaring "I told you Sadeas was bad!" to Dalinar, the desperation and awful as Dalinar and Adolin and the entire Kholin army realizes they're going to die there. And then Kaladin steps in, owed nothing, knowing they might have given away their freedom forever... and saves them. Also very very good!

One problem I have with Jasnah's thinking about about the Heralds is that we know the Desolations started coming more and more frequently because the Heralds kept breaking and coming back. If they killed the Heralds, for one, it wouldn't work the way Jasnah might think because something's gone messy with the Oathpact, and for second, more likely than not one or more of the Heralds would just break immediately and they'd all just be right back where they started. I need to reread Part Two to be sure, but I feel like Jasnah should have made that connection. I still really liked her in this book, though. I don't blame her for treating Shallan the way she did; I think everybody 'regresses' when they meet someone they haven't seen in a while.

RShara, a reminder not to double post. You can edit posts and also the plus sign button beside the Quote button stands for Multi-Quote, if you want to quote multiple people on the same post.

I have to say the four-on-one duel. It was a brutally crushing beginning to the fight to have Adolin have that realization that Sadeas did him like that, to the realization that the woman reffing the duel was just going to let it go on, to Renarin and Kaladin both realizing that they have to do something... "Honor is dead... But I'll see what I can do." It was a small enough scope that I felt I could easily concentrate on all parts of it, which is something I don't do well in the big battle scenes (trouble holding onto all parts of it), but the stakes felt high. I was in this scene's grip the whole time.

You are correct! I am also not the biggest fan of how the triangle ended, I just was upset with some of the arguments being made which I thought were unfair. But the overall point? Nah... If we're all dissatisfied with the ending, then I don't see that there's any problem with saying so.

PhineasGage, I'm not going to ban anyone for disagreeing with me. Not me, nor any of the mods would do that. Disagreements are part of this, certainly, and from my perspective, I've matched the tone of the thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have! It's not an abuse of mod power to have an opinion, but perhaps I should have responded more coolly. But in this thread, I've explained my own thoughts and feelings. None of my posts were meant as attacks, and it's exactly my point that emotions are running hot right now that we are all taking them that way. If said person who was personally insulted wants to, my inbox is open, and I would be glad to make amends with them directly. Edited for more.

So the argument has shifted from "we DO like Adolin" to "it's okay if we hate on him a bit because he's fictional". Things are getting heated, and the goalposts for answering posts are shifting. Last time I checked, the opening post was asking about opinions and didn't seem to about specifically being here for Shalladin shippers to express their feelings, but most everyone who doesn't ship it has certainly fled/decided not to respond. You know, that's okay, and it can just be what it's shifted into, but it doesn't have to wait to be civil. People should be civil all the time, not after a vague undetermined amount of time for "emotions to cool". There isn't an excuse. Personally, my point of view is in line with a lot of some of the very good arguments in here, but I've chosen to defend a fictional character, Adolin, because I identify with him, and I think some of the arguments here do him wrong. And here's another thing. I've been defending a fictional character, and then been told not to take it so seriously, (and I believe in this I was also called a snowflake?) and it's okay to be rude about a fictional character because... you also just care about your preferred fictional relationship so much. This is a double standard, and I understand that it feels correct to say this because emotions are in the mix, but I think at this point maybe it needs to be said: It's not bad when I do it but then a-okay when you do it. At this point we are all perceiving hostility when perhaps there wasn't any and then taking it as justification to say some things in this thread that are... ill-conceived.

Why exclude dead characters? Is it because there are characters now dead who have fulfilling arcs without romance? Maybe Jasnah will be one of them. We could make a list of all characters, dead, alive, or even with a spouse, who don't have romance arcs. But I'll oblige: just to start, how about Shai? Galladon. Lightsong. I disagree with none of the options, and none of those options answer my point. I'll clarify. Romance is not the only route for connecting emotionally to characters. In fact, I can easily both enjoy romantic arcs and also hope that not all characters will have one. There are plenty of worthy emotions to explore outside of romance, and sometimes romance arcs are distracting to other plots that a character might have going on. Maybe Jasnah will get a romance arc in a future book. But based on what we've been given in the three books, I'd think it'd go very much against the grain of what Brandon is setting up.