Greywatch

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like... boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

No, actually, I have no problem with finding Shallan's romantic arc in OB dissatisfying. My response could directly in response to FuzzyWordsmith, and I hope they don't mind me bringing this up further as I was satisfied with the end of our exchange, but I was saying that there isn't a meaningful difference between saying "Shallan and Kaladin should end up together" and "Shallan and Kaladin shouldn't be together now, but they should in the future" and saying they were two totally different statements was disingenuous; as the main gist of those statements is the same. I'm sorry you felt that was aimed at you, but it wasn't.

You'll note that I didn't call the people with this opinion "disingenuous" and that is a misreading of what I said.

I merged your posts, actually.

Oh...! I can appreciate that; I just know there are quite a few ace cosmere fans around. Thank you!

A reminder to edit your post instead of double-post, AubreyWrites. Yeah, I wouldn't be destroyed, or even bothered, about Shadolin ending within the first ten seconds of SA4, but you can see that wasn't the gist of my post. My post was about the dismissal of Adolin as an unworthy or bad option for Shallan.

Okay, yeah, that's a fine interpretation, nothing wrong with it. My question was meant more to clarify that someone being asexual and yet still being attracted to another person was an oxymoron; asexual means to not feel sexual attraction.

A few people have said that, but always with the caveat that they do want Shadolin to end and Shalladin to happen in the future, so I feel like the clarification is a bit disingenuous.

Do you know what asexual means?

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread. I thought he did have growth, it just wasn't on the same scope as the Radiants. I liked that his story was about stepping back and being extremely self-reflective - I think it's something he's needed to do a lot in the past couple books, and I was glad to see him get it. Reviving Maya was a beautiful moment for me, evidence that Adolin's constant love, affection, and loyalty was meaningful. That it wasn't wasted, that his straightforward constancy is powerful enough to do the impossible. I think he's quite intelligent, but mostly puts effort towards the things that he values. I think he has also been through some terrible things in his life, but has an incredible mental and emotional resilience so much so that it leads people who don't know him to underestimate and think of him as simple and easy to manipulate (Sadeas...) I could really go on, but though I don't like Shadolin that much, I certainly think he's equally worthy of the consideration and respect.

I was really pleased with it, for Kaladin's sake. It breaks my heart that Kaladin really thinks it's a personal failing that he wasn't able to say the Fourth Ideal at this time, but I'm excited to where he goes in SA4. I thought it was actually a relief for Kaladin that he doesn't need to save everyone, even though he certainly feels the desire to. Dalinar's crowning moment is so worth it, though. It was so powerful, and I'm glad we got to see for good that Dalinar came to his own realization on his own. He needed to face down his own past, and someone else riding in to the rescue might have turned that battle in a different (worse) way.

I completely agree. I feel bad for people coming into this thread who genuinely like Adolin.

I don't think it's a very good argument to say that Jasnah will end up with somebody, not because of any of her own qualities, but of other characters? There are plenty of characters Sanderson writes who don't get romantic partners, and it doesn't follow that because Jasnah is significant the way Brandon writes her, that she's automatically going to end up with someone else. I really strongly disagree with the idea that romance is the way to connect to characters? That isn't remotely true, and many people on these very forums have chosen their favourite characters not based on their romance arc, but on other qualities that we find relatable. Those just aren't strong enough arguments for Jasnah absolutely positively getting a romantic partner. I really think she doesn't need one, and if Jasnah ends up with a man, I'll be really disappointed.

In WoK and WoR, I always said Adolin was my favourite. And I love him to pieces, that's still true! But I think I have to give up the ghost and admit that Dalinar is my favourite. He was so good in OB, I can hardly stand it. He had such a powerful story, and it's so striking how he never gives up, and keeps going on, and on, and on. Even when he'd done genuinely terrible things, and people would understand if he just didn't anymore. But he doesn't let even himself get in his own way, he knows what's important now is to keep trying, and he achieves such good. I just admire him to pieces.

Oh, this! This was my favourite scene with young Dalinar. I especially loved when he walked into a highstorm, sees a giant monster in the distance, and just flips it off before going back inside. He was so casual about it!

I can recognize that she was under stress at the time, but she still 100% should not have done it, and it was still cruel. She's old enough to know better. That said, I agree it was a relief to see that Kaladin can laugh about it now, a book and a half later. The only reason I was happy to see it is because I do think by the end of OB, that Shallan wouldn't have done it again. I don't think we're disagreeing about what's going on with her personas or what will fix it; but I do think it's jumping the gun to say that Adolin is doing it wrong based on the fact that when OB ends he's only known about them for about a hot minute. In this, I want to wait and see SA4 to see how he really interacts with them after being introduced to the idea that they exist. I also dislike the idea of holding someone responsible for something they have no way of knowing, ie. the best way to treat multiple personality, which isn't exactly a well known process even to us. I... love this! Absolutely agree. Upvote! I am going to resist the idea that Kaladin is inherently a better choice, mainly because of your first couple sentences. (It's exactly what Navani said about Evi, and after the OB flashbacks, I admit I've lost respect for Navani because of this line.) Adolin is extremely intelligent and tactically minded. I'm always extremely impressed with him when reading his pov and seeing him deeply understand and support Dalinar's strategies. His mind is often turning and finding angles and coming up with new ideas - just about politics and nations. I really see him as being a lot like his father, in that he has a very keen mind for strategy and tactics, but simply doesn't have an interest in, say, science, in which case, I'd phrase it as he's happy to let the experts take the spotlight and jump in when it's his strong point. I have to resist this again, as Kaladin is not cleverer than Adolin, but more apt to banter. I truly don't think the banter Shallan engages in is actually clever - it's just being obtuse and insulting, then feeling superior when they invariably "don't get it". Kaladin, only engaging in this insulting behaviour when Shallan banters with insults him first, at least only directs it at Shallan, and doesn't initiate it. Ahhh... This is point where I think I should clarify my real feelings. (@SLNC, I did read it over, and I think I actually do agree with... most of it, but more below.) A lot of times throughout the thread there was talk about how Brandon dropped the ball, and if Shallan and Kaladin don't end up together, that Brandon is at fault and he did something wrong or unskillfully. It really bothered me, and it's not an objective truth. It might feel that Brandon did something wrong because you really, really like the pairing, but as I've said before, it's just the way you read it. Just because Brandon does something we don't like doesn't mean that it's bad. It's possible the hints he was dropping were setting up a different kind of plot entirely. We just don't know. My favourite reading credo is "the real story is viewed in light of the ending." SA hasn't ended yet, so maybe he really is setting up Shalladin. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he's setting up something else and it won't be obvious until all the pieces are together. But Oathbringer is also a single story, and this single story had an ending, and we can view all of the interactions between the three in light of the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up choosing each other and Kaladin and Shallan deciding not to act on anything. I have a viscerally bad reaction when Shalladin because I have a major problem with Shallan. You may have noticed that the majority of my arguments against Shalladin were related to Shallan's behaviour; I've hesitated to say anything because a lot of people do like and identify with Shallan, but I just find her so mean. It's visible in all three books so far that she often mocks and belittles other people, sometimes just to feel clever, sometimes just to make herself feel better. I don't find her funny or clever. She deeply bothers me. OB also brought me a lot of sympathy for her and how seriously her trauma is affecting her; I think at her core she's a really compassionate person who wants to help people. Her ability to see the absolute best in people is her most amazing trait, in my opinion. She's going through a lot of terrible stuff right now, and she's still responsible for her behaviour, and I don't have to like her even though she might have reasons. I think she's worse than usual to Kaladin, and I think no matter how condescending she might be to Adolin (we can disagree about it), I'd still take the open affection she expresses to Adolin over the openly "funny" insults she gives to Kaladin basically every time they interact. That's my preference, and I am never going to find it cute when Shallan does it. I think both Adolin and Kaladin could do better. I've said it a couple times throughout this thread that Adolin/Shallan is not my favourite ship - maybe I should be more candid. They're cute and all, but I don't actually really ship it myself. (After defending it for a couple days here, though, my feelings went from grumpy "did they have to end up together" to "THE TEXTUAL EVIDENCE" - crazy what defending something will do for your feelings about it.) But OB clearly made the case for them, viewed in light of how it ended. It might be undone in SA4, but that's the next part of the story, that will have its own ending. Shipping doesn't have to be about canon, though, and there's been a lot of speculation and ideas and just fun things for Shalladin. Which is great! My point is that it doesn't have to be supported by canon to be a good ship. Related to why I really wanted to respond, it also really bothered me that folks were throwing Adolin under the bus for reasons that were not supported by the SA books at all, but just kind of thrown in there to justify the idea that Kaladin was clearly the better choice. Adolin can be the canon pick and it's fine to just say "I prefer Kaladin with her" instead of picking through the text to invent reasons that Adolin is bad for Shallan to prop up Kaladin by comparison. We don't have to do that. We can just say what we prefer without that. (My main ship is Kaladin/Adolin - there's a lot of fun to be had when one needn't justify the canon-ness of it to anyone else!) We decide what we like and dislike and read things into that. Adolin and Shallan had a lot to stand behind, but if you don't like the pairing, you just can't see it. It's the same with me and Shalladin. All the interesting connections, textual evidence, hints in the narrative, doesn't make a difference. I don't like the pairing, and I don't find the in-text relationship compelling or interesting or good. Neither of us is going to be logic'ed into liking something else... We just like what we like. In the same way I have a strongly negative reaction to Shallan's bantering, for one example, you clearly have good associations with it. I would never want you to stop having that. But it's not going to be there for everyone reading SA. It doesn't count as textual evidence in support of a ship if person A says 'look at this it's amazing' and person B says 'this is terrible'. It's just our opinions.

And that's just, like, your opinion, man. /Jeff Bridges Are we at the point now where we can say we read really different things into both relationships and it's a matter of different interpretation?

Then that's a matter of opinion, as I found her condescending through all of WoR.

Then this really is an impasse, because I can decide here that's enough for me to not like it; just as you can decide you still like the ship in spite of all that.

Then I think this is much more a matter of interpretation, since I got the feeling Shallan in WoR was being genuine and straightforward with Adolin, since her position in the warcamps depended a lot on the Kholins' opinion of her; whereas I found her unbearably mean and condescending whenever she spoke to Kaladin. Seems to be a matter of perception.

No, not at all. Where I come from, "dear" is the most commonly used pet name for people in a romantic relationship. I'm sorry that it's been ruined for you. I do not like any said "in-joke" between Kaladin and Shallan, as the origin of it was... not great. Shallan enjoying getting a rise out of Kaladin, and actively consciously trying to do it is juvenile, especially if it's an actual attempt to flirt. I think it's obnoxious and upsetting in real life, and Shallan doing it did not make me like her any better. But she often uses juvenile behaviour to cope, so at least it's in line with her characterization. I cannot see these "jokes" as a genuine attempt to connect. If you like that sort of thing, more power to you, but it wasn't cute or charming for everyone. Those same things that made you like the ship turned me off of it completely. I mentally begged Brandon not to have them be romantically together for the same reasons you want it to happen. They have conflict because they have conflict. Conflict between a male and female character does not equal true romantic destiny. It's a trope I find very difficult to pull off in fiction, most of the time it falls flat for me. In this case, Shallan's behaviour towards Kaladin in the boots scene went beyond "falling flat" straight into "despicable". Kaladin's anger at lighteyes for harming/stepping on/killing him and his family and his friends is not the same as Shallan's casual dismissal of darkeyes as lesser. Shallan as a lighteyes is in a position of power; Kaladin is not. Their perceptions of the other caste should not be treated as equal. Kaladin's anger and bitterness of lighteyes is based on frequent real life events he can point to in his life and the lives of his loved ones. Shallan's treatment of darkeyes is... the way she was raised to think. More on this is a totally different topic of discussion, but they are not the same, nor should Kaladin's "prejudice" towards lighteyes be made light of - if I can make a pun. Shallan's fractures are also fairly recent. I think you and I just have different takes on what Shallan's different personas mean. I'm of the opinion that they are a coping behaviour and Shallan isn't ready to let go of them yet. Adolin is not the reason they exist. Adolin is also not her therapist, and it's not his job to tell Shallan how to be healthy. His job is to support her, and it's my strong opinion that accepting all of Shallan right now and not avoiding/dismissing/denying the reality of Shallan's personas is more helpful than the other way around. All that would do is just have Shallan continue having them, but in secret. Adolin was not the cause of her fractures, and he is not the reason she's continuing to have them. Her personas are part of HER issues, they are part of her process, and she will continue to work on bringing her personas back into herself (or not! we'll find out in SA4!) and you are putting way more fault on Adolin than exists in the text. It is only an interpretation to say that it's Adolin's fault she's stagnating. My interpretations from the beginning is that: (1) Shallan is not stagnating. She's in a process and we don't know where it will end up with her, and the book ends while she's still in progress. We actually don't know where this will end up, and her mental health journey has been radically fast when you consider how short a span the books have actually covered so far. This might be a short stop of a few months along her journey. We don't know! OB had to end at some point, and it happened that OB ended while Shallan was still working on things. We're going to have to wait a few more years for the next SA book before we can comfortably say what impact Adolin is having. It's understandable to be worried that she's being enabled, but there's not enough evidence in the text to support that. (2) Shallan's reaction about stressing over what Adolin thinks of her, worrying about what he thinks, becoming occupied with presenting her good side to him is (a) something that normal people experience when dating someone, taken to an unhealthy extreme because of Shallan's specific issues, and (b) something that she would be experiencing with any romantic partner at this time.Where you see this as a specific reaction to Adolin, I have always seen as her reaction to a romantic partner. A lot of these feelings of "will they still like me if they really know who I am?" are perfectly normal, and something I always took as a given that she would experience with Kaladin as well had she chosen to pursue a relationship with him instead. (One conversation in the chasm is not enough to know a person, no matter what they shared, and the chasm scene was nice, but not the basis of a relationship.) I didn't! Must have missed it. I'm away to make supper right after this, but I'll check it out when I'm sitting down again tonight. That said, I think this definition of "silly" is really personal and relative, which means I don't think we'll agree. I think silliness is a great and normal trait that you can have with a very committed romantic partner, and I just didn't take it the way you did. Lastly on this, if you're trying to make an argument against Adolin in favour of Kaladin, the seven months argument is negated by the fact that she's known Adolin and Kaladin for the same amount of time. All we can do is argue what they have chosen to do with that seven months of knowing each other. Factually, Adolin and Shallan have expressed interest and attraction towards each other frequently, intentionally chosen to spend a lot time together to have fun and get to know each other better, think about each other a lot, express how much they care about the future of the relationship, and try their best to support the other person's feelings and goals. Kaladin and Shallan got lost in a chasm once, had a conversation with a kindred spirit which was nice, only spent time in the other's presence when Adolin was around, spent some time thinking about the other but ultimately chose not spend time together or use whatever time they had together getting to know each other, instead exchanging barbs and being kind of mean to each other. Even when Shallan was thinking about Kaladin, it was drawing his face or thinking "I should go flirt with him" and not even ... about him? I just haven't seen Shallan and Kaladin caring about each other's wants and needs. They both care about their shared mission, of course! But their specific individual struggles? We haven't seen a lot of that with Kaladin and Shallan, just surface attraction and "hmm do I really like them?" My perception has never been that Adolin had an idealized version of Shallan in his head. Shallan thinks that he does, but his pov never supports that. He takes her at face value and readily accepts whatever Shallan says and does as really cool and a new part of the woman he's starting to love. The other relationships, yeah, there's lots of idealization going on, which happens with young folks who like each other: Kaladin to Shallan, Shallan to Kaladin, Shallan to Adolin.

I think that'll have to be the point where we leave it, because I simply don't think that's what's happening - either for Shallan's mental health, or how Adolin is contributing. I don't think Adolin does fully understand what he's going through, but he's been given the opportunity to try and he is. I don't think anyone can help her in the way you're talking about, and someone's romantic partner should be a support but not their therapist. Sometimes support is all you can do, and I think it's all anyone in the SA books could offer Shallan right now while she works through it. (I do think she needs a therapist, absolutely, but I'm not sure that exists on Roshar the way we think of it. )

She's taking steps to face her past, bit by bit, with or without Adolin. And I honestly, truly can't see how the compassionate support of one person is undoing the work she's already done, or halting the progress she's starting to make. Shallan fracturing herself was happening as a result of her admitting the truth of her past, which had nothing to do with either Adolin or Kaladin. Her deciding to be with Adolin is related but separate from her relationship with her trauma, and I think it's unfair to the extreme to say that because Adolin likes Shallan that he's destroying her mental health. He isn't, not all kindness is coddling, and Shallan does need to keep growing up and get with the program, but she also does a little gentleness. By the logic of Shallan's mental health unraveling because Adolin showed a preference by a certain way that Shallan presented herself, then it follows that any man Shallan was attracted to and chose to be with would also do the same. Therefore, she should never be in a romantic relationship? It doesn't follow. There's an argument to be made that she should be more mentally healthy before she enters any relationship, but Adolin is doing pretty well.

I'd definitely like to take a close reading to find examples of Adolin acting in accordance with the Edgedancer oaths. Even if he didn't say the words, spren seem to attracted to likely partners before the first oath even needs to be said.

It makes sense to me that there will be more on the Radiants' ability to destroy actual planets in future books, but I feel we can safely say this is what caused nine Orders of them to dissolve their oaths. A lot of us in the west are used to knowing that we're the descendants of conquerors and invaders, but this seems to be a very new concept to the Rosharan humans.