ROSHtaFARian2.0

No, that makes sense, and it fits for the idea that Bavadin was originally a Yolish Lightweaver too, adept at using illusions and misdirection. So I wouldn't be surprised to find any of those things true, I just think looking for a causal link between Bavadin's abilities and her tendencies can be limiting. Like.....having the mindset you're describing certainly makes sense as a symptom of having a shapeshifter or illusionist's abilities....but having that mindset shouldn't necessarily be used to predict the presence of a shapeshifter or illusionist, you know?

I just think its a mistake to assume that Bavadin's impersonation of various beings means that she was originally a shapeshifter, pre Ascension. She holds a Shard, with all the power that comes with it. Shards have created entire planets, altered orbits, created life forms, etc. I think manipulating how they're perceived by mortals is way at the lower end of the scale of what they can do, and just because she's the first Vessel we have indications of using her power that way doesn't mean its because she, the Vessel, is a shapeshifter.

Ever since we learned about the Sleepless, I've been wondering if they might have a connection to Cusicech. (I can't remember how to spell it either, lol). With the bit about all the faces appearing in that spren, it feels similar to how the Sleepless are made up of multitudes of smaller organisms (or can separate into multitudes of smaller organisms, more accurately). I'm wondering though if maybe that's the godspren of the Sleepless, like the spren that represents their race....and as such, if the third Bondsmith might be a Dysian Aiman.

Right, we know she's the most cosmere aware according to Brandon, I'm trying to figure out if she was instrumental in gathering/educating other worldhoppers herself, such as efforts that might lead to the creation of Silverlight, or if there were established communities of worldhoppers even before she began doing it, and she simply surpassed them in her travels/learning.

Oh one last late to the party question, if anyone needs another question to ask - Did Silverlight's creation predate Khriss' worldhopping?

For Sel....perhaps the smoke represents the Dor, bottled up in the Cognitive Realm and leaking through in various ways to impart magic to the world? And Taldain, perhaps Bavadin's symbol is a tree, a singular entity that branches out with various personas to reach across the cosmere?

If anyone wouldn't mind asking a question for me, here's one I'd like to get the answer to: Given that Devotion and Dominion were splintered early on in Sel's prehistory, and given that it takes time for a Shard's Intent to become prioritized over the Vessel's original personality.....were Rayse's early targets of Ambition, Devotion and Dominion motivated more by Rayse's original views and attitudes towards those Vessels, or by his Intent as Odium towards those particular Shards?

Honestly, I don't have a lot of evidence for this, its more of a gut feeling. But lately I've been thinking about the fact that Odium, despite being at least partially Invested in Roshar, is not confined to Roshar itself, but rather the greater Roshar system. And I keep thinking about the legends of the Tranquiline Halls, theories of human migration to Roshar, and the ten gas giants ringing the system, as well as the fact that Brandon has remained vague about whether or not Ashyn has at any point had Shards Invested in it. And again, I can't point to anything definitive, but I keep coming back to the idea that the overall story of Honor, Cultivation and Odium and their struggle and the Oathpact that binds them encompasses the whole Roshar system, not just Roshar and Braize. I think at some point or another the three Shards have been Invested in all three planets that we know of, and its a whole web of Investiture that keeps Odium confined rather than a singular anchor point. We've speculated at various points that the Tranquiline Halls are a reference to humanity previously being from either Ashyn or Braize before migrating to Roshar, but what if its not just one or the other, what if its both? What if there's been a progression throughout the eons like perhaps the conflict started on Braize before progressing to Ashyn and then from there it progressed to Roshar, and all three Shards have left pieces of them in their wake as they moved from one planet to the next, and its those pieces that form a cage keeping Odium in the star system....perhaps because he couldn't be contained just via one planet. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it, but consider Odium's conflict with Honor and Cultivation as a chess match throughout the ages. They plotted their moves across the board that is the greater Roshar system. Envision humanity beginning on Braize, under the watchful eyes of Honor and Cultivation, until Odium arrived, trying to do to them what he'd done to Devotion and Dominion, and had a hand in accomplishing with Ambition. Perhaps his initial zeitgeist turned Braize into a wasteland as Odium attempted to destroy the two Shards, and humanity fled to Ashyn, and the chess match progressed to there. And maybe Honor and Cultivation tried to checkmate him on Ashyn but he eluded them and pressed his assault there, leading to great havoc and destruction across Ashyn, until only a few places were left fertile and most of humanity fled yet again, this time to Roshar, leaving only remnants behind on Ashyn. And then on Roshar, with nowhere left for humanity to run within their reach, Honor sacrificed himself to protect the real king in the game (Cultivation and humanity), making moves such as the Oathpact that left him vulnerable should Odium take the bait and engage on the terms Honor laid out. And when Odium did so, Honor was Splintered but all the moves he and Cultivation had made across the Roshar system were brought to fruition, all the Investiture scattered across planets acted to trap Odium within the greater Roshar system. As long as Cultivation still survives, the game can still be won according to some grand design the two had laid out across the eons, using their pawns (regular Rosharans), their knights (the Knights Radiant), and their bishops and rooks (the Heralds), pitted against Odium's own chess pieces.

I err on the side of assuming/hoping there's a third great empire out there if only because that means there's another as-yet unseen Selish magic system out there. Given the regionalized nature of Selish magic, this third empire is unlikely to have access to Forgery or AonDor and has something specific to their region.

I'm curious if any of the Scholars have been to Taldain. Given its place in the timeline, I think its the most likely of the planets we know so far to have been through the Industrial Revolution at the time the Five Scholars were active, and Taldain being isolated from the rest of the cosmere is something that could have happened after they might have visited. Alternatively, the planet Dark One is supposed to be set on is another likely bet given how Brandon's described that, and Ashyn is likely to have been through the Industrial Revolution too.

You know what, I'm espousing that. I don't care if it actually makes sense or not, I'm too entertained by even the idea that Khriss is actually one of Bavadin's personas.

Just because the Shattering was premeditated doesn't mean it can be assumed that the Sixteen could have accurately predicted what the fallout of the Shattering would be. We have WoB that Adonalsium could theoretically have splintered into other Shards than the 16 that actually resulted. I think its entirely likely that even if the Sixteen shattered Adonalsium with the explicit intention of taking his power and even divvying it up amongst themselves, that doesn't mean they had any certainty what Intents would result from the Shattering and who would get what. I don't think its even a guarantee that the Sixteen had any idea that Intents would result from the Shattering at all, rather than just power to be distributed among themselves and used as they saw fit. And given that it takes time for a Shard's Intent to warp a Vessel's personality, they might not even have realized right away that there WERE now foreign Intents clouding their judgment and directing their actions, let alone what those specific Intents were.

Given some new information about Bavadin and how much she seems to play around with peoples' perceptions to manipulate them (specifically, the WoB about how she has multiple personas and there have been pantheons where every member was actually her).....now I'd like to propose that if Trell is her (as is likely), she might see some benefit to making people within the cosmere believe that its Odium interfering on Scadrial, not her. So even though earlier I was arguing that red eyes might simply be the nature of corrupting Shard influence within the cosmere, and is how that would manifest regardless of what Shard was doing the corrupting, now I'm thinking it could actually be particular to Odium, and Bavadin might deliberately mimic certain indicators of his presence to make her influence look like his.

Yeah, I think its a mistake to read too much into Bavadin's physical gender or any shapeshifting powers, because Honor is really the only Shard we've seen thus far actually use a human avatar to interact with mortals. Ruin, Preservation, Endowment, etc....none of them needed to be physically present in order to manipulate people or present themselves to people, so there's no real reason to assume that Bavadin has to have some kind of physical shapeshifting capability in order to present herself as multiple people of varying gender. I mean, she's pretty much a god to cosmere mortals, and so when interacting with a god, even if the only perception you have of said god is some kind of voice in your head or words appearing out of nowhere or changing their shape or order, you're going to take said god's word for it as to whether they're male or female. All Bavadin needs to do is say 'I am Trell' and use he/him pronouns in reference to that particular persona, and bam. She becomes he, as far as anyone on Scadrial is concerned. No actual shapeshifting required.

Not at all. Because that same quote goes on to say that her isolationism in regards to Taldain is at odds with her interference in other worlds, which is definitely not characteristic of just wanting to hide and survive, or stay out of what's going on in the cosmere.

This line of discussion makes me think of this old theory I proposed here though that was a long time and new information makes it in desperate need of re-evaluating. (Specifically all we know now about Adonalsium's influence or presence on Roshar pre-Shattering means that whatever Adonalsium's true nature, there was at least some time during which it was active around the cosmere beyond just Yolen, but I digress). Point is, the fain life and where they fit in with the greater cosmere picture depends largely on how they relate to Adonalsium. For instance....they are said in LoP to have arisen from the corpses of the dead gods.....I'm still waiting to find out these dead gods' relation to Adonalsium. Were they its peers, was Adonalsium but one of many originally, the only survivor and thus it (and the Shards splintered from it) vulnerable to something that was essentially created from the remnants of its fallen peers.....or was Adonalsium a successor to these dead gods or a higher power than these dead gods, and thus the solution to defeating the fain life.

I do remember that WoB as well. I think I need to see its exact phrasing though, because my perception of it was that Brandon was saying that the Shard's Intent wasn't synonymous with hiding or surviving or anything like that, but rather that as you said, 'it wanting to just hide and survive' was in response to what Odium was doing. So I think this still fits, because Caution itself is not synonymous with just hiding or isolating oneself, or prioritizing survival above all. So its not hiding because its Intent is to hide. Its hiding because in light of what Odium is doing, hiding and surviving is the most effective way to act in accordance with its Intent, which is Caution.

I think it's a possible counterpart to the newly named Shard of Ambition. Now I'm thinking the Shard that just wants to hide and survive might be named something along the lines of Caution. In keeping with the theory that the Shards are all divine attributes, if Ambition is the divine urge to create, to do things, to advance....Caution is the divine urge to wait, to use restraint, to not do simply because one can, but to be aware of repercussions, ramifications. And as a singular Shard, without the influence of other divine attributes such as Ambition, Endowment, Cultivation, etc.....a Shard named Caution might simply want to hide and survive, isolating him or herself from the conflicts raging elsewhere throughout the cosmere.

True, but then perhaps its possible she was misled in some way or another. If Bavadin is still Autonomy, and is also Trell, or the force behind the manipulations on Scadrial, then misdirection and working via proxies is definitely within his/her wheelhouse.

Yeah, personally I'm of the camp that Bavadin is a he, and Autonomy switched hands at some point before this was written, most likely during the events of White Sand. Also, I will raise another possibility - we know Khriss is the most cosmere aware character, but that doesn't mean all her conclusions are true. She might simply believe Autonomy to be a she, having never met Bavadin personally.

Divine Ambition could be considered a way of describing the primal creation urge. Given that Adonalsium has been so often referred to as the power of creation, having a Shard called Creation I feel would probably make it too easy/likely for people to prioritize it as being 'above' other Shards, like it was the prime Shard or something. Ambition could be a workaround to avoid having an explicit Creation Shard....but while Ambition feels more like a human trait, leveraging oneself to a higher position or station, which is something that a divinity wouldn't really feel much drive too, being omnipotent or near as....technically, its well within the actual definition of the word for Ambition in Shardic terms to be more accurately described as the drive to create, to have, to make, to realize....all of which could well be considered divine attributes.

It's a shame, because I really really want to see Khriss' opinion of Nalthis and what goes on there. It always seems to me to be incredibly underrated in terms of its standing in the cosmere....I mean, add it all up: * Has a magic system accessible to pretty much all Nalthians, unlike any other magic system we've seen thus far. * The birthplace of Nightblood, the single most powerful man made artifact revealed in the cosmere thus far. * Has a society directly and actively influenced by a Shard unchecked by any other Shard that we know of, via the Returned * Home to worldhoppers who are knowledgeable enough about both the cosmere and Investiture to hack other magic systems, such as creating Nightblood to emulate shardblades from Roshar along with Vasher being able to sustain himself via Stormlight instead of Breath. I mean, there are a lot of things that make Nalthis incredibly interesting and significant from an in-universe perspective, and I imagine Khriss has found plenty of reasons to find Nalthis fascinating. Also, I really want to know if she and Vasher have ever crossed paths, and what that interaction looked like.

I'm also extremely excited about the Ambition reveal, because I'm imagining possibilities for a magic system rooted in that Investiture - he/she might be dead, but as we've seen elsewhere, that doesn't mean there's not a magic system out there with their Investiture in it (not counting Threnody, because while what happens on Threnody is tied to Odium and Ambition's fight, we know its a side effect of ambient magic, not a directly Invested system. I'm really hoping there's an Ambition-based magic system still to be revealed in future cosmere workings. Also, it makes a TON of sense that Odium would view a Shard named Ambition as his biggest threat and go after them first.

I'm still working through the particulars, but I'm building a theory that the Evil mentioned on Threnody is the Cognitive Shadow of Adonalsium, perhaps warped by the Shattering.

I mean, Brandon's written SO MANY WORDS that you can find similar phrasings of things all over the place just by virtue of the law of averages, lol. But in all seriousness, Khriss flat out says 'the answer most likely lies somewhere in the planet's history' which suggests that the actual application of Occam's Razor here is that there was enough major Shard influence at some point in the past to form a perpendicularity, rather than a Shard somehow hiding his or her presence. Plus, Brandon has outright said there is no Shard currently on that planet.