ROSHtaFARian2.0

But if Odium isn't behind the events of SoS and BoM, then it could very well be to his benefit to wait before confronting Harmony, even if/after he gets free of the Roshar system. If the force threatening Scadrial isn't of Odium himself, then it doesn't have to be in league with Odium to be useful to him. This third party and Harmony wearing each other down and weakening each other through their own conflict would only be to his benefit. After all, its entirely possible that Odium already tackled Sel because Devotion and Dominion were already engaged in conflict, and weakened each other to the point that Odium saw an opportunity to take them both out. If there are other forces out there that would be opposed to Harmony, Odium wouldn't necessarily be predisposed to go after Harmony next - not if there was a chance someone else could do some of the work for him. Also, it could be argued that each time Odium shatters a Shard, he gets better at it, or more skilled or practiced in the art of opposing and killing other Shards....there's no reason for him not to leave Harmony for last then, to give himself a better chance of success.

Hmm, I've never taken it for granted that First of the Sun never had a Shard on it at any point. All Brandon's said about minor Shardworlds is that they're worlds that aren't of extreme importance to the cosmere as they don't have a Shard present on them.....didn't he specifically say that some of them may have Splinters or some other degree of Shard influence on them though? Just not a full Shard? Which would imply that any minor Shardworld that did have at least a Splinter of a Shard on it was at some point host to a full Shard. (LOL unless there's a Shard out there that's just shooting off Splinters of itself into different directions in space to scatter its power as far and wide as possible. Actually....I said that as a joke but now I'm actually thinking about that one Shard that's said not to be invested in any planet.....would having Splinters of itself on various planets count as not being Invested in a planet?) Anyway, I digress. Point is, as others have said, I'm not ruling out anything about First of the Sun yet.

I'd also like to point out that even if and when Odium does come to be defeated, that doesn't mean that any other cosmere wide villain to follow him would necessarily need to be of a magnitude of power greater than him - ie an opposite to Adonalsium. Odium is the most visible cosmere-wide antagonist we've seen thus far, and the only Shard we know of who has Shattered other Shards....and yes, we've been told that Rayse was probably the worst of the original 16 Vessels even before picking up Odium, which has been described as the most fearsome of the Shards. But that doesn't necessarily mean we won't eventually see another Shard who's a greater threat even than Odium. Being the most obviously fearsome of the Shards doesn't necessarily make him the most dangerous. Another Shard could have an Intent that's less obviously destructive and an agenda that doesn't hinge on killing off the other Shards....and yet still be just as great a threat to the cosmere, if not more. After all, if Ruin hadn't been held in check by Preservation, he could have easily been a cosmere wide threat himself. And there's still several other Shards out there. Also, something else to think about as a possible successor to Odium as a main cosmere antagonist...Brandon has stated multiple times that Harmony is what Odium was afraid would happen if two Shards merged. He's also stated that Odium would never pick up another Shard because he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard's Intent. However....that doesn't mean there aren't other Shards out there that wouldn't be interested in picking up Odium's Shard and adding it to their own. So we could very well yet see a Odium + Another Shard combo similar to Harmony.....just with someone other than Rayse in the driver's seat.

My wariness in regards to reading too much into the red eyes being indicative of Odium's presence is that Brandon has a big Unifying Theory of everything in regards to magic and Shards and Investiture. And while we're still far from understanding just what that is and how everything works and connects together, my point is that we've seen (and been told by Brandon) many many times that there are reasons that so many different magic systems, all born from different sources, end up accomplishing a lot of the same effects, or working in a lot of the same ways. For instance, we know Lightweaving is a Yolish magic that predates the Shattering.....but we also know that it works similarly to the Illumination Surge on Roshar, which stems from the interaction of the Shards on Roshar. We know that the smoking effect created when a Shardblade from Roshar kills someone is similar to the effect created when Nightblood consumes Investiture, and that there are similar things happening in the Spiritual Realm in each instance.....just like we know that Nightblood's creation was inspired by the Roshar Shardblades. Yet Shardblades and Nightblood stem from completely different Shards and Investiture and aren't actually the same thing. They just create certain similar effects because of underlying realmatic mechanics we don't fully understand yet. As Brandon's put it, there are various ways to achieve the same ends in the cosmere, but they all follow the same underlying principles, so a lot of similarities appear. So while I definitely agree that the red eyes are indicative of another Shard's influence.....I don't agree that by default that means that influence is more likely to be Odium's, just because that's where we've seen a phenomenon most like this so far. Personally, I think its far more likely that its just a similarity born from the underlying mechanics of the cosmere....that this is what happens/what it looks like when something in the cosmere is infected or corrupted on a Spiritual level by a negative Shard's investiture.

About that Theoryland quote from the Calamity Release party - it should probably be noted that 'half-ish of the Shards are not whole' was one thought, and Brandon saying there are others besides Honor, Devotion and Dominion that are gone is another thought. Since he clarified that 'not whole' includes Splintered, not just Shattered, and he made a point to say that just because a Shard is splintered doesn't mean they're lessened.....that means that Endowment could certainly be included in the half of the Shards that aren't whole by Shadows of Self....but that doesn't mean she's gone. However, we know that at least seven Shards of the original sixteen are definitely gone - Honor, Devotion, Dominion, Ruin, Preservation, and 'there are others' in regards to the question (which was are there any SHATTERED Shards we don't know about) definitely can't mean Ruin or Preservation....which means at least two other as yet unnamed Shards are Shattered. And since the half-ish quote said about half the Shards aren't whole, then five Shattered Shards, plus Ruin and Preservation, plus Endowment (which is Splintered) accounts for eight Shards right there. But again, since the only definitive ruling we have is 'half-ish' which could be nine instead of eight, for instance, there could still be Shards other than Endowment that are Splintered but still around, or there could be more than two unnamed Shards that are also Shattered. Either way, we have seven Shards left to name, and of those, two of them at this point in the chronology are already Shattered. (Again, the 'there are other Shards that haven't been named yet that are Shattered doesn't include Autonomy, since we know about him....though this doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't Shattered or Splintered as well). However, as a counterpoint to what Pagerunner said, this doesn't mean that there's someone else other than Odium out there killing Shards. Odium's influence wasn't necessary in what happened with Ruin and Preservation, they essentially did that to each other...while they weren't actually Shattered, there could easily be two Shards that Shattered each other in a similar kind of conflict. Or, an interesting possibility, what if there's a Shard who essentially committed suicide? Like a Vessel like Ati, who saw him or herself beginning to be corrupted by the influence of their Shard, perhaps another strongly negative Shard like Odium or Ruin....and while their personality was still relatively intact, before they could become fully consumed by their Intent, they found a way to Shatter themselves in order to keep their Shard's influence from doing as much harm as Ruin and Odium have managed?

In regards to the original sixteen Vessels, the only thing Brandon's said about them is there are three races on Yolen so don't assume they're all human.....but I for one would love to get confirmation on whether or not they all are native Yolenites. We know that other worlds and humans on some of these worlds pre-dated the Shattering, and that Adonalsium was Invested in Roshar pre-Shattering as well (though this doesn't necessarily mean that humans were present on Roshar pre-Shattering, I just mean that Adonalsium was not solely focused on Yolen). So what I'd like to know is if world-hopping existed before the Shattering as well. Were Hoid or any of the sixteen Vessels aware of these other worlds before the Shattering, had any of them traveled to them by some means or another, or did any of them originate from another world?

I'd call a Devotion/Dominion combo Sovereignty. personally. I always felt that Unity and Harmony were too similar in too many ways, couldn't see Brandon going that route even if he did make another merged Shard on Sel. But like others have said, I'm not convinced a merged Shard is where the Sel storylines are headed.

(Well my pet theory is Trell is a Shard named something like Revolution, ie the Intent of Change, that Shard which governs the aspect of creation that introduces dramatic shake-ups to the current status quo, so as to prevent stagnation. It would fit with his agents' actions on Scadrial, and such a Shard would especially be interested in a world half created by Preservation who was succeeded by Harmony. Plus, such a Shard would fit with the hints that Odium has worked with other Shards before, and to my mind makes more sense than Autonomy to for instance, help shatter Devotion and Dominion and radically shift the course of events on Sel).

But its not even that the metal doesn't contain power, as no focus contains power in and of itself, its the thing that filters the power and determines the shape it takes. Just like Commands on Nalthis aren't power in and of themselves. They're what focus the power, the Breath, and tell it what shape to take. As Brandon describes it there, its literally the molecular structure of the metal, the pattern of it that shapes the form the power takes in the metallic arts. He went to the trouble of making a comparison between the metallic arts and drawing Aons, a parallel that makes no sense whatsoever if you simplify things to metal = Scadrial's focus. With AonDor, the Dor is the Investiture that fuels the magic. The Aon an Elantrian draws is what channels that power into a specific effect. It focuses the near limitless power into one singular end result. With Awakening, the Breath is the Investiture that fuels the magic. The Command an Awakener gives is what channels that power into a singular, specific effect. With Allomancy, the Investiture that fuels the magic is innate, its part of the Allomancer. The molecular structure of the metal an Allomancer burns is what channels that power into a specific shape. It's what makes a bead of iron a clearly defined shape for the power to focus itself into. The structure of the metal is still the metal. They're the same thing. So of course the Shards will still be blind to the metal. But simplifying things to the focus = metal misses the why and how the metal acts as a focus. So I shouldn't be saying that the metals aren't the focus, that's a mistake. Instead I should simply be making the distinction that when specifically discussing things like foci and the connections between Investiture, people and the Shardworlds, its important to be cognizant of what specifically about the metals focus the power.

I just found one of the quotes from Brandon about metals not being the focus themselves on Scadrial. It wasn't the one I was thinking of when I wrote this theory, but its along the same lines, the focus, the filter in Allomancy/Feruchemy actually being the molecular structure of the metals rather than the metals themselves:

Gotcha. Well in that case then, yes, treat all instances where I said manifestations of Investiture as meaning 'the forms in which a Shard's Investiture is expressed in either the Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual Realms'.

Don't mean to be argumentative, but is manifestation of investiture as a technical term for the magic systems straight from Brandon? Its entirely possible it is and I missed it, but if its fan terminology that's a different matter. For all intents and purposes though, read manifestations of investiture as I used it here to mean the ways a Shard's Investiture expresses itself on a Shardworld, just for clarification. And unless I'm seriously misinterpreting a series of things, I could swear stormlight is definitely Investiture as Brandon's talked more than once about Vasher using it as a substitute for Breath, and how on Scadrial it would be considerably harder to hack the magic system and fuel himself with its Investiture, which means that is what stormlight is. If we have WoB otherwise though, I've definitely missed that and would appreciate a point in the right direction. As for spren, we know they're splinters of the various Shards on Roshar and Adonalsium itself, but yes, the idea here that they are Investiture that developed sentience of their own, as Brandon's mentioned is possible and even likely given enough time, is a large part of this theory and entirely possible to be proven baseless.

Okay, this is going to get long, so bear with me. But essentially, this is my theory on what's fundamentally going on with the expression of magic on each Shardworld, and what I'm calling my Rule of Three. Three is the number of Realms in the cosmere obviously, Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. It seems to me that all magic requires elements working in tandem across all three Realms simultaneously to achieve a specific effect. What those elements are depends on the Shardworld more than Shards, but always results in the same breakdown. In essence, in the cosmere, magic is ultimately: People using Investiture to alter the world around them, or themselves in relation to the world. Three elements. The person using the magic. The Investiture fueling the magic. And the world they're effecting change on. But a lot of magic is internal in the cosmere. It only affects the magic-user like with various forms of Allomancy and Feruchemy. Well, yes. But that gets into the nature of what exactly IS a Shardworld? Because we've done a lot of theorizing over the years over the nature of foci and what Brandon's said about magic being the result of how Shardworlds interact Shards' Investiture. But the element I feel we've been leaving out of that theorizing is just what constitutes a Shardworld in the first place? Everything in the cosmere has an Identity. From rocks to chairs to forces of nature. But what comprises a planet's Identity? Is it just the giant rock in space itself? Or is it the amalgamation of everything on it, the rocks, the trees, the animals, and the sentient beings? My theory is that it's the latter. In which case, there's a distinction to be made in the WoB about the nature of magic on each Shardworld. In this case, magic on each Shardworld is born of how Shards' Investiture interacts with the Shardworld (AND the people who consider it their planet). Moreover, while I believe Shardworlds recognize the difference between Shards when manifesting their power in physical ways...I believe they see Shards at their core as being all fundamentally the same. They are all pieces of the same original after all, and while Intents fuel differentiation between each of them, the power behind each Intent all comes from the same place. I believe this to be why any Shard could potentially Invest in any Shardworld another Shard has already Invested....but unless they find a way to Invest MORE than the previous Shards, the way their Investiture manifests will always follow the precedent set by the previous Shards, as though their power is being channeled through a framework someone else already built. This is why we have this Word of Brandon: Which establishes two things. One, that there is a three-way bond between people, their Shardworld, and its magic. Two, the phrasing suggests that Odium did certain things (ie Investiture) on Roshar which enabled people already on Roshar to use magic he fueled. In other words, I do not believe he Invested at the same time as Honor and Cultivation, and as such, his later Investiture flowed through the framework they had already established and manifested in a similar form. But more on that in a bit. SCADRIAL First let's focus on Scadrial. It's unique among the Shardworlds we know thus far in that it and its inhabitants were created by Ruin and Preservation. We also know that there's a genetic component to Investiture on Scadrial, which makes it harder to hack in terms of using its Investiture to fuel other magic systems. Finally, I know there's a Word of Brandon on this but maybe someone can help me track it down....its not the metals themselves that are the focus for magic on Scadrial, but rather the molecular patterns within the metal. So if my theory is correct, Ruin and Preservation Invested in Scadrial on a staggering scale. Their power is literally part of the fabric of its creation, and its peoples' creation, because they created both. The Shardworld regards them as its Creators, because they are. It would not exist without these Shards' power. And they are mixed into the fundamental building blocks of both planet and people, in the very elements of the earth and the DNA of the inhabitants. And I believe the two are a matched set, at least when it comes to Investiture. I think the pattern in steel that unlocks the Investiture wielded by a steel misting or ferring matches the pattern in the DNA of those mistings/ferrings. And the DNA of full Mistborn and Feruchemists is like a master pattern that encompasses all the smaller ones of each, allowing an individual to unlock them all. We know too that Shards don't have total control over shaping their magic systems. That they mostly arise on their own, a natural set of conditions made from the interactions between Investiture and Shardworld. However, given that Ruin and Preservation created this world and people from scratch, I believe they had more of a hand in shaping its magic than most Shards. And thus Preservation's magic has a built in backdoor that allows it to be spread and used by anyone with the right tools (ie Lerasium) in preserving life (the Connection demanded to initially access his Investiture), while Ruin's magic is literally the easiest one in the cosmere to be used by anyone and spread beyond just Scadrial and its inhabitants in pursuit of sowing entropy. But because these Shards are so fundamental to the fabric of Scadrial and its peoples, its Investiture in their very bedrock....by extension that means that any Shards to come to Scadrial after them would be limited to working within the framework they established with their Investiture. They literally created the world. There's really no way to Invest any more than that, which means I think its unlikely that any future Shards Investing in the planet will result in the rise of a whole new magic system. However, new Shard Investiture in the planet, following the precedent Ruin and Preservation mapped out, will manifest in the very fabric of the planet and people itself....because that is how the Shardworld interacts with Shards' power. But only if the Shards in question are willing to Invest to such an extensive degree. Scadrial, in my estimation, demands a costly Investiture....but it would result in a new godmetal forming in the earth (ie Trellium) and a matching pattern for that godmetal in its inhabitants' DNA. Because while it may be a costly Investment, Scadrial and its people are one and the same....once a Shard Invests in them, they are a part of both at a core, fundamental level. Scadrial's magic, while versatile, is simple and very physical oriented....because so much of its Shards' Investiture is focused in the physical realm. ROSHAR Next let's move on to Roshar. It's unique in that we have knowledge it existed pre-Shattering, and included spren that were splinters of Adonalsium's power itself. We also have suspicions that the humans on Roshar weren't native to it, which could affect the Identity of the Shardworld and their interaction with Investiture on it. However, Roshar confused the crap out of me because it showed two separate manifestations of Investiture - spren and Stormlight. Which I couldn't wrap my head around. Unless...what if they're one and the same? The nature of Roshar is such that the boundaries between the three Realms are considerably less firm than somewhere like Scadrial. Humans and spren can move between Physical and Cognitive Realm without too much hindrance, suggesting a much closer relationship between thought and physicality on this Shardworld, and Brandon has described gemstones soaking up stormlight during a Highstorm as being akin to screwing a lightbulb directly into the Spiritual Realm, suggesting that unlike Scadrial, where Investiture primarily manifests in the Physical Realm, Investiture on Roshar is mostly focused in the Spiritual...at least when in the form of stormlight. We also have a WoB that enough Investiture, if not picked up over a long enough period of time...will eventually develop some kind of sentience. So what if Investiture on Roshar just manifests as Stormlight, a raw, primal force of nature that's part of the planet's very ecosystem, a wild reservoir of Investiture that's scattered across the globe on a regular basis. In essence, a Spiritual primordial soup.....which over time spawns life forms aka spren just like our own primordial soup birthed the first organisms on Earth. Since we know Adonalsium had splinters of its power in the form of spren even pre-Shattering, per my theory, Adonalsium itself provided the initial framework for the form Investiture would take when interacting with Roshar. Perhaps the more mindless spren we've seen are birthed of its power as it was spread far beyond just Roshar and so was diluted enough that the spren born of its interaction with Roshar are sentient in the sense that they're pieces of nature with more sense of Identity than your average rock or flame....whereas when Honor and Cultivation arrived, their Investiture was more concentrated, and thus spren that birthed themselves from their contribution to the Stormlight primordial soup rose to the level of full sapience. So, Adonalsium dug out the initial channel in Roshar for Shard Investiture to flow through, and so Honor and Cultivation's Investiture followed the path it laid. But they provided the framework for its magic, as there was none already in place. And thus Surgebinding is the result of forming bonds with pieces of their Investiture and cultivating those bonds. Because of this I believe bonds are the foci on Roshar....which applies not just to spiritual or moral bonds between humans and spren, but also to the bonds in crystal lattices, ie gemstones and gemhearts, which are both naturally occurring in nature and grown or cultivated in living beings. (Just as the patterns on Scadrial occur both in metals and human DNA if I'm right). I'm still waiting til we find one way or another if Roshar's humans came from elsewhere. If so, that could be why Surgebinders can only form bonds with spren who are definitively of either Honor or Cultivation...as transplants to Roshar, perhaps their Identity and Connection to both Shardworld and Investiture limits them to only forming bonds with the Investiture that arrived with them...such as if Honor and Cultivation came with them to Roshar from somewhere else. Either way, when Odium later arrived on Roshar and Invested himself, following this theory, his Investiture manifested in the vast Stormlight reservoir and eventually achieved varying levels of sentience in the form of his odiumspren. But because Honor and Cultivation by now had laid a framework for magic on this world via their own interactions with Roshar by this point, Odium's voidbinding followed the same course - but rather than build on honorable bonds and the cultivation of them, his Investiture fueled the bonds of hatred, which enslaves even as much as it empowers. So in theory, any other Shards that Invested in Roshar would eventually birth endowmentspren, autonomyspren, etc, and they would fuel a kind of Surgebinding via bonds with these spren, though its impossible to speculate how the resulting magic would look compared to Surgebinding when we're still not entirely sure how differently Voidbinding manifests in terms of specific powers. NALTHIS Nalthis is like Roshar in that Investiture on it seems to manifest primarily in the Spiritual Realm. Specifically, Endowment's Investiture manifests as Breath, an innate part of the spiritweb of people born Identifying as being of Nalthis. As a Shardworld is its people and vice versa, this is the form Investiture interacting with Nalthis takes, as established by Endowment's initial interaction with it. However, unlike Roshar, Nalthis manifests no sentient splinters in the form of spren because its Investiture, while Spiritually focused....is never left untouched. It's always paired with a sentient mind, being held by humans until its used to Awaken. And being a fundamental part of the economy, Breath is in such demand that its rare and extremely unlikely that a sufficient quantity of it could ever be stored in an object long enough without being discovered for it to develop sentience on its own accord. Even the great treasure trove of Breaths had to be passed down from father to son for dozens of generations to keep it from being stolen. The focus on Nalthis, we're told, is Cognitive, the Commands given when Awakening, which actually fits with the Intent of Endowment and makes sense as an intentional or unintentional shaping of her magic system. Because Endowments don't typically come with no strings attached. An endowment is given with a specific purpose in mind. When you give a college or charity organization an endowment, you have specific directives for how it's to be used. So a Command as the focus of a magic system fueled by Endowment fits perfectly.....you give or bequeath Breath to an object you Awaken....but you do so with specific directives for how that Breath is to be used. What that means though, is that if any other Shards were to come to Nalthis and Invest themselves, their Investiture would manifest in the form established by the Shardworld's first interaction with a Shard. I think any other Shard's Investiture on Nalthis would also manifest as an innate part of their Spiritweb...whether Breath was the best name for this new addition to their Spiritweb is debatable, but in each case it would be something that in keeping with Endowment's precedent could be moved from person to person. Just as Voidbinders form bonds with odiumspren and allomancers burn atium, Nalthians could pass this not-Breath from one to another....though likely the effects of using it would be different than Awakening. If I'm on the right track, Nalthis is actually the planet I would most like to see another Shard Invest itself in, because I think that's most likely to result in the rise of a magic system most dissimilar to the planet's original magic system, out of all the Shardworlds we've seen so far. For instance, Odium Investing in Nalthis would result in its people being born from that point on with a second Breath, that while still requiring Commands to focus or direct its usage when imbuing something with it, would not Awaken that object but would rather interpret Commands in some other fashion. I have a few ideas for how this might look, but that's pure speculation. SEL Finally we have Sel (I've read the White Sand prose version but not the graphic novel yet, so abstaining from including my thoughts on that so far). Sel also established its interactions with Shards via a paired set, Devotion and Dominion, and as they were both Splintered some time ago, we have no idea what the magic looked like before that happened and no doubt altered things considerably. However, what we do know is that magic is region-locked, and that the foci seems to be shapes. However, I'd posit that the focus isn't shapes so much as its shapes with meaning. Ie, symbols. The Aons are a language, each one has a specific meaning to all Elantrians. The shape of Mai-Pon is a symbol of Forgers' homeland. The shapes formed by a ChayShan practitioner's body are made with intent. The shape of the bone twists mean something to the Dakhor monks. The combination of symbols plus regional focus makes me think that the intersection of Devotion and Dominion ie nationalistic identity is the key to tapping the Connection to Sel's Investiture most effectively. The mere existence of Elantris is a rather brilliant way of hacking such a magic system and maximizing its usage by a group who are in theory idealized as being altruistic. Craft an external Identity that means what you want it to....Elantrian....give it a focus point and regional representation....Elantris, the city....and then fill it with people who match that Identity and thus perpetuate and build it til it takes a life of its own....the Shaod. This is only speculation at this point, but I believe that the reason Shadesmar is where the Splintered Shards of Sel's power is concentrated is because that's where most of their Investiture was. Unlike Scadrial, Roshar and Nalthis where Investiture was all Physical or Spiritual Realm-focused, I think on Sel, Investiture manifests primarily in the Cognitive Realm, in the form of kinds of kind of mass Identities or unconscious group minds all magic users tapped into in order to use their magic. Like a specific idea of what it meant for all Elantrians to be Devoted to a singular cause or idea of what it meant to be Elantrian, and this manifestation of Devotion's Investiture fueled the magic channeled and focuses by symbols that built upon their symbol for their homeland or the focal point of this group Identity. And Skai's Investiture manifested in a similar mass Identity. When Odium Splintered them, all of that Cognitive-centered Investiture merged with what was left of their Spiritual power and just blurred together and fed on each other to become the chaotic mess of power that churns around aimlessly in Shadesar and makes it dangerous to go near. I have more thoughts on this but I'm trying to wrap this post up, but I think Sel-ish magic users are linked to Identity in a way few other practitioners are...and while this can be limiting on the surface, its potential is mind-blowing if you're adept at altering your own cognitive self-image or at least reframing your Identity in other ways. Regardless, while I don't think its likely any Shards are going to Invest in Sel any time soon as I have reasons to think the Dor makes them as wary of Sel as it does most world-hoppers, if they did, it would not be a simple venture, but would rather require a more overt presence...at least as the magic stands now. In order to make people on Sel use a magic they fueled, another Shard would have to Invest in its PEOPLE, in their cultural identities, as much as the physical Shardworld (again, Shardworld = its people and vice versa). They would have to give people on Sel a reason to flock around a specific region and regional identity and symbology they established to further their Intent....but ironically, no matter their personal Intent....it would still be peoples' Devotion to their new region and that cultural Identity's Dominion over all other concerns/priorities that would provide the most direct access to their new magic, even if it was this new Shard fueling it. Just like odiumspren still require bonds for Voidbinding and not-Breath would still need to be Endowed and Trellium still needs to be burned or fashioned into spikes implanted at the right points in a person's Spiritweb. And on that final note, if Trell does turn out to be a new tenth Shard (I don't think Trell is Bavadin/Autonomy or someone else we've already seen).....let's just hope the dangers of the Dor keep him away from Sel, because from the followers he already has and the power of Sel-ish magics, a Trell Invested Sel as I'm picturing it now could be terrifying.

I can't find the WoB just at the moment, but I'm 99% positive Brandon has clarified at least once that metals are not actually the focus on Scadrial....but rather molecular patterns that make up the metals. So, if that's the case, then its actually these patterns that are the focus, and the metals themselves are the catalyst burned up in order to tap or access that focus. Similarly, while this is purely my own speculation, I don't think the focus for Sel is actually shapes. I think its symbology. Shapes that MEAN something. The Aons are both language and art, but they're never just a collection of random lines, they're all symbols that every Elantrian knows the meaning of. The shape a Forger draws to seal a Soulstamp isn't just in the shape of their homeland, Mai Pon, its a depiction of their homeland....the shape only means something because the shape means their home. So I think on Sel, symbols are the focus of magic, and an individual's interpretation of those symbols, even if instinctive and unconscious, so quick it doesn't even register to them as part of the process...its their understanding of those symbols, transforming them in their mind from a collection of lines into a shape that means something to them, represents Identity or Connection...that's the catalyst on Sel.

Yes, but while Ruin and Preservation being the creators of Scadrial's inhabitants may be part of why there's such a strong connection between their DNA and tapping the Shards' Investiture, that doesn't change the fact that there IS a strong connection. Basically what I mean is, while what you're saying may be true - that could very well just tie into what we're theorizing. It being true doesn't any way preclude what we're theorizing from also being true. After all, the thing about the Shards is they are all sixteen pieces of the same, original whole. They have different Intents, but at their core, they're not at all dissimilar. So I don't see any reason why the way a Shardworld interacts with one Shard's power would be fundamentally different from how it interacts with another Shard's power....once an INITIAL interaction has happened. So when a Shard or pair of Shards make their first initial Investiture in a planet....that sets the tone for how all other Shards to come after them interact with it. As though that first initial Investiture forms a channel or a framework or pattern...that any other Shards Investiture would have to either match or fit through....but any other Shard COULD match their Investiture to, because they are all at their core, fractions of the same power. For instance, we have this WoB: While its open to interpretation, the phrasing of that answer has always left me with the impression that Odium did not Invest in Roshar at the same time as Honor and Cultivation, but rather that his Investiture happened afterward. He did certain things on Roshar to make its inhabitants able to use a magic he fuels. What that suggests to me is that Honor and Cultivation's initial Investiture formed the framework for how Roshar interacts with Shardic power and manifests it, and while odiumspren and voidbinding look and behave differently from honor/cultivationspren and surgebinding because they come from a different Shard, they aren't at their core dissimilar in what they are, how they work. Odium's later Investiture didn't reinvent magic on Roshar or alter it in fundamental ways....it simply added to what was already there, it fit his power into a pre-existing framework. Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial and its inhabitants from scratch, and I can well believe that's the reason their Investiture is so deeply ingrained in both....its literally part of the fundamental bedrock of the planet and the people themselves. But that doesn't mean the Investiture of a later-arriving Shard would result in a completely different interaction between planet and power....it could just as likely mean that through their example, that is how Scadrial interprets Investiture. That's the framework it has in place for Investiture to manifest through, and other Shards can either match it or not....they can't just reinvent how the planet interacts with a Shard's power. So for another Shard to Invest in Scadrial....that's how it has to happen, in a manner so fundamental they make themselves a part of Scadrial on a level equivalent to the precedent Ruin and Preservation set....so much so that a new metal is formed in the very earth itself....and a corresponding DNA blueprint forms in the people who are as much a part of Scadrial as any element Ruin and Preservation created on it.

I've always held the opinion that there were Atium mistings all along, its just nobody knew about them until Leras altered the Snapping method, because as someone else mentioned, atium was too valuable to waste testing everybody to see if they could burn it. The reason I think this is significant here, is because Brandon's expressed repeatedly that the Shards don't just design their magic systems. The magic of a Shardworld arises from the way their Investiture interacts with their Shardworld. Now, they have some ability to influence particulars of a magic system or how it works, such as when Leras altered the Snapping method to create an army of atium mistings....but for the most part it seems that magic systems build themselves out of Investiture/Shardworld interaction. Another thing that Brandon has always made a big deal about when discussing Scadrial's magic, is that its unique compared to the other Shardworlds we've seen so far because of its genetic component. The blueprints for using Allomancy and Feruchemy are hardwired into Scadrial DNA, with certain elements needed to bring them out or express those traits. Shard Investiture on Scadrial expresses itself in both the metals AND in the DNA of Scadrial's people....its the combination of those two factors that result in Allomancy and Feruchemy, and why Brandon's said Scadrial's Investiture would be considerably harder to hack and fuel other magic systems than say, Roshar's. Anyway, my point is....the DNA blueprint granting the ability to burn certain metals is a natural byproduct of a Shard's Investiture, just as certain metals are themselves. If there is atium via Ati Investing in Scadrial, then there will be people with the DNA to burn atium as well. So if we're right about Trellium actually being Trellium, a godmetal that's the byproduct of another Shard Investing in Scadrial, then I think the way magic naturally arises from Shard Investiture mingling with a Shardworld, there will eventually (if not already) be Trellium mistings as well. I think the two go hand in hand. If a Shard's Invested enough for one to be created, the other will have been as well. I think the only real question will be if, like Atium mistings, people have no idea about the potential for Trellium mistings because they lack widespread knowledge of it or access to it.

Despite having word that Cultivation is still around, we haven't seen much evidence of her hand at work in a long time on Roshar, other than the Nightwatcher, which is said to be connected to her. A lot of people have theorized that its due to Honor's Shattering, that she withdrew because of that, but what if her seeming inactivity has been due to weakness rather than intent? My theory is that Connection is a two way street. It seems as though using a Shard's Investiture requires at least some kind of Connection to them. Allomancers must 'snap' in Preservation of themselves or others before they can access their power. Hemalurgy requires the conscious choice to Ruin something. The Shaod only seems to take someone who expresses great Devotion to some cause, ideal or person to become an Elantrian. The monks of Dakhor exert Dominion over their lower ranks to empower themselves. Awakening requires an Endowment of Breath to an object before you can command it. The Listeners give in to their Hatred before finding stormform. We know Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation. I think that's less about some Surges like Adhesion being specifically of Honor and others like Progression are of Cultivation. It seems there's a tendency to view Cultivation as more nature-related, like you cultivate crops....but her actual Intent is a bit more broad than that if you think about it. All Surgebinding requires both Honor and Cultivation to truly master it. A Surgebinder acts with Honor and forms a bond with a spren initially...but they only grow in power when they Cultivate that bond, when they learn more oaths as their Nahel bond strengthens and deepens, the more and more honorably they act. But in my estimation, Connection is a two way street. When a connection or pathway is formed between two points, it rarely, if ever only goes one way. There's very few connections that even if normally predisposed to go in one direction, can't be reversed or cause feedback if there's enough interference or an external force or variable redirects things. I feel Connection in the cosmere is no different. In fact, we know its not, because we've seen it happen on a micro-scale. Kaladin's Nahel bond with Syl empowers him and fuels his Surgebinding....but the Connection goes both ways. When he acts dishonorably, in opposition to the source of their bond in WoR....it affects Syl. It hurts her. And if its true on a micro-scale, in just the bond between Surgebinder and spren, I think its true on a macro-scale, with Cultivation and everyone wielding her Investiture. And I think that's what happened with the Recreance. It seems likely (if not confirmed, I can't remember right now) that Honor was already Splintered when the Recreance happened. I don't think it had anything to do with weakening him (IMO, the Heralds breaking the Oathpact probably had far more of an effect on him). But if Surgebinding is equally of Cultivation....it wasn't just Honor the Knights Radiant collectively turned their backs on that day. They abandoned the Cultivation of their oaths, of their Honor, every bit as much as they abandoned the oaths themselves. And I think that such a singular act, on such a massive scale....it caused feedback in the Connection between them and the Shard that was so Invested in them. It hurt her, weakened her. All of her Investiture that was expressed in the spren and the Nahel bonds and Surgebinding...Investiture that was meant to be used in accordance with her Intent, bonds cemented and grown and strengthened, seeds of Honor that were intended to be nourished and cultivated and built into something bigger and better and more useful.....instead, ever since the Recreance, all of that Investiture has just lain fallow, untouched. No bonds being cultivated, just a lot of spren-seeds strewn all around Roshar with no one growing anything from them. However, the flip side of this theory means if I'm right, the rebirth of the Knights Radiant throughout the series, the renewal of Nahel bonds and the resurgence in Cultivating them, growing in Honor, learning new oaths, deepening the bonds and connection between Surgebinders and spren....as time (and the series) goes on, this will lead to re-empowering Cultivation as her Investiture is taken up and used again in accordance to her Intent, restoring her to whatever she was pre-Recreance and possibly leading to her showing more of an overt influence in matters.

Yeah, we know that human bodies burn out from the full power of a Shard, but theoretically that doesn't preclude a Shard from manifesting in a physical form that only looks human but doesn't have the actual limitations of a human body. If two Shards cooperating can create a planet, I can't imagine why creating a physical avatar would be beyond their capabilities. Personally I think the answer may be as simple as when you have a group of seventeen individuals with different personalities and different Intents altering those original personalities....you're going to get sixteen vastly different approaches to 'godhood'. Honestly, the only three Vessels we can say with any certainty haven't been walking around in physical form are Ati, Leras and Sazed. Ati and Leras were both vastly limited in power and mobility by each other, and Sazed takes a decidedly distant approach to interacting with his Shardworld thanks in large part to his Intent. We really have no way of knowing if Aona, Skai or Tanavast ever manifested physically before Shattering....and no way of knowing if Rayse, Bavadin, Edgli or Cultivation have ever done so either. Even if they haven't, that doesn't mean they couldn't...just that for a variety of possible reasons, they've chosen not to. Maybe it would make them vulnerable in some way, maybe they just don't see a point to it, maybe they just don't like humanity enough to want to interact with them that closely if they don't have to, haha. But there's still seven other Vessels who could potentially have a much more hands on approach to interacting with humanity.

What I'm curious to know is whether or not worldhoppers existed pre-Shattering. We know that many of the Shardworlds already existed....only some like Scadrial were created by the Shards. But did the people of Yolen have knowledge of these other Shardworlds? Could they worldhop? Because if so, while Braize may not be Yolen, it could still be a world that has some significance to Hoid and the original Vessels because they could worldhop. Whether Hoid had ever been on Braize could be 'the biggest RAFO' ever not because he'd been on it since the Shattering, when it was 'Rayse's territory' so to speak, but because something significant happened there before the Shattering, and this ties into why Braize is now Damnation. I don't know, this is totally baseless speculation, but like what if the weapon that killed Adonalsium originally came from Braize. And that's why Rayse set up shop there, because he didn't want any other Vessels (or Hoid) to have access to Braize and use it against him. Something like that. (Incidentally, this would also explain Ati's question about Vax. Unless Ruin spent time on another Shardworld before creating Scadrial with Leras, confusing Shadesmar with the planet Vax doesn't make a lot of sense unless his familiarity with it came from before the Shattering, like as a worldhopper).

We know from Khriss that she's in exile, and I believe (but don't quote me on this) that we have WoB that Taldain is at least relatively inaccessible around the time of Secret History, via world-hopping at any rate? My theory is pretty simple: When Taldain started to become more cosmere aware, and individuals like Khriss learned to worldhop and travel to and from other planets, Bavadin did something deliberately to render it inaccessible via Shadesmar. Thus preserving its Autonomy from the greater cosmere-wide events. In essence, Khriss' exile is because Bavadin didn't want her worldhopping and curiosity about the cosmere to lead the various warring powers of the cosmere back to Taldain and compromise his world's ability to chart its own future, free of outside influences. As an extension of this, I don't actually believe Trell is Autonomy....rather, I believe Bavadin cut off access to Taldain to keep Trell and Odium and similar forces from doing to it what they're doing to Scadrial and Roshar. IMO, that fits the Intent of Autonomy better than anything Trell or his agents have been shown doing.

It could also be something like Serenity or Tranquility, or an Intent that just wants to maintain a peaceful or calm state of existence.....so knowing what was going on in the cosmere and isolating itself so it could just exist free of the greater cosmere conflict....that would count as just wanting to hide and survive while still only tangentially being related to its Intent. Its isolation isn't purely driven by its Intent, but it creates the conditions its Intent prefers.

I'm still betting we eventually see a Shard called something like Judgment. If Odium is divine hatred absent things like love and honor, a Shard that was essentially divine judgment absent forgiveness or compassion would be pretty freaking terrifying IMO.

I hadn't seen that WoB, but it makes a lot of sense. It also makes me wonder though if it would be theoretically possible for a Vessel to divert or give away enough of its power to keep their Shard's Intent from overwhelming or significantly altering their personality or mind. For instance, could there be a Shard who deliberately creates enough Splinters or invests enough of itself in its world/magic system that their personality remains as it was when they first took up the Shard?

Hmm. Now I kinda want to ask Brandon if the Ire are older than the Heralds, and if so, if there's any non-Yolen natives at the time of Secret History who are older than the Ire.

Yeah but again, we have so little actual information still about the Shards that I think people tend to jump to conclusions trying to make the most of what little we do know. There's seven Shards still we know nothing about. Just because two of the ones we do know about were mentioned at the same time as being people Hoid doesn't like, that's a very simplistic basis for assuming that the two of them have anything in common beyond being people Hoid doesn't like. Yes, considering the nine Shards we do know, out of all of them Autonomy does make the most sense for someone Odium might have worked with in the past - Honor and Cultivation oppose him, Devotion and Dominion were shattered by him, Ruin and Preservation were pretty occupied with each other and Endowment doesn't seem the type. But with seven more Shards we know nothing about... Occam's Razor doesn't really apply when the conclusion being reached isn't a result of being the simplest explanation, but rather the only conclusion that can be drawn while still missing half the possible players. As an example, look at Ati again. Once a good man. With the letter talking about Rayse and Bavadin, as in the people rather than the Shards, it makes sense to think they might have similar natures as people and thus make for likely allies. But then throw in seven other people that Hoid might have really liked when they were all mortal, and thus wouldn't make sense to be mentioned in the context the letter mentioned Rayse and Bavadin.....but whose Shards could have altered them as much as Ruin changed Ati, and thus turned one or more of them into an Intent closely aligned with Odium and an even more natural ally for him. I won't be surprised if Bavadin is as bad as Rayse and Autonomy and Odium have worked together. But when speculating about the workings of a universe as intricate as the cosmere, I think its important we craft our theories and assumptions based on things we actually know, not just assume for a lack of not having enough fodder to speculate in other directions. tl;dr - We're all so impatient to see the big picture revealed that we're taking Information A + Information B and jumping all the way to Conclusion Z....not because that makes the most sense, but because we don't want to wait for Information C through Y and see how that affects the equation.