ROSHtaFARian2.0

Quick question - we've known Bavadin is on Taldain for a long time, but does anyone know if we have any WoB on whether or not he's the only Shard on Taldain?

Well, we also know Hoid is not at all a fan of Kelsier, and yet Kelsier's got plenty of fans here.... I wouldn't be surprised if Bavadin ends up one of the big villains of the cosmere, but I do think that people tend to assume too much from the fact that he and Rayse were mentioned at the same time as people Hoid dislikes. It doesn't automatically make the two of them allies or aligned, and it doesn't mean that Hoid's grudges against them are for the same or even similar reasons. Also, Ruin turned the once honorable Ati into a monster. Even if Bavadin was full on evil when Hoid originally knew him as a mortal, there's nothing to say holding Autonomy hasn't worked its own changes on Bavadin and rendered him considerably different than he was - and I absolutely believe Hoid is capable of holding a grudge against someone who fundamentally is a completely different person from when he originally angered him.

Unfortunately, I think you're making too many assumptions here, as much as I too would love to have a definitive count of all these. For instance, major Shardic influence doesn't actually have to mean a Shard presence. So Yolen doesn't have to have an actual Shard anymore, given that it literally being the birthplace of the Shards could easily be taken as a heavy Shardic influence. I personally would be very surprised if Yolen does have a Shard. Call it a gut feeling, but I don't think it does. (Although if it does have a Shard, I suspect it's the Shard that just wants to hide and survive). Similarly, we know Braize is relevant to things, but I don't think it can be taken for granted it's one of the ten core Shardworlds. There's every possibility that there's next to no actual civilization on Braize. It might be a place that's visited during the Stormlight Archives, and its connection to the Heralds and Odium makes it significant, but if it's not actually inhabited the way Roshar, Nalthis, Scadrial and others are, I don't know that we can take it for granted that Brandon was including it in his count of ten core Shardworlds. As far as Vax goes, I personally believe it to be a Shardworld, but we don't know that for sure, and if it is, it could be the name of Dark One's Shardworld. So really, aside from Scadrial, Nalthis, Sel and Roshar, the only major Shardworlds we can be sure of at this point are Bavadin's world, Taldain, and Yolen - which I feel has to be a core Shardworld, but not necessarily one with Shards itself at this point. So that's only six of ten core Shardworlds. Threnody and the world of Sixth of Dusk are confirmed as minor Shardworlds, and Braize and Vax are likely all relevant to the greater cosmere story and potential core Shardworlds, but far from confirmed as such. Same with Ashyn, it could be major or minor, but my bet is minor. Personally, I think Vax is the seventh core Shardworld, but I think there's a potential three more yet to be seen aside from that. We know nine Shards linked to specific worlds or systems - Ruin, Preservation, Endowment, Dominion, Devotion, Honor, Cultivation, Odium and Autonomy. We know a tenth Shard isn't attached to any planet. We know at least one more Shard is Splintered by Odium - but that could be the tenth Shard, or one that was Invested in another Shardworld and whose influence is still felt the way Honor's is on Roshar, etc. So I'm expecting to see the remaining six Shards (discounting the one unattached to a world) to be spread amongst Vax and three other worlds, with one of those Shards possibly Splintered like Devotion/Dominion. I wouldn't be surprised if there are two more core Shardworlds with one Shard each, like Nalthis or Taldain, and two more with two Shards each, like Scadrial and Sel. Although again, to be fair, its only an assumption that Taldain only has one Shard. I don't believe we actually have Word of Brandon that Bavadin is the only Shard there.

True but just because Brandon originally had the idea for that world so early doesn't mean that his later cosmere developments weren't factored in by the time we saw Threnody. He could easily have had the idea for named Threnody by a group of pilgrims fleeing a great evil....and then by the time he wrote about Threnody, it just worked out in his overall plot that this planet's people would have named it Threnody in memorial to Aona/Skai.

As to the 'Can non-human races ascend' question, I can't find the WoB right now, but I know there have been a couple that have not outright confirmed it, but heavily implied. One response was along the lines of 'Well, there were three sentient races on Yolen, pre-Shattering' - with another response at a different time confirming that Yolen had humans, dragons and one other. However, a different, related question that might yield further insight could be 'Can non-human races created by a Shard (such as kandra or koloss) Ascend?'

That's actually what I'm most curious about - the status of Taldain (the White Sand planet) as of the later books in the cosmere, like Bands of Mourning and Stormlight Archive. How advanced are the cultures on Taldain as a whole at this point, as compared to the Scadrians or the Elantrians? Is worldhopping and awareness of the other planets common knowledge, are they approaching space travel of their own, or is Khriss an outlier, a cosmere aware individual who originated on Taldain but whose knowledge and interaction with the rest of the cosmere outstrips the rest of her planet's?

Well also, why is it taken for granted that Adonalsium was the 'good guy' in all of this? We know that essentially it was the power of Creation, but that says nothing about his/its intentions at the time it was shattered. So far there's nothing I can think of to suggest whatever or whomever was opposing it didn't have a good reason. I mean, what if for instance Adonalsium was what created Yolen and it's original inhabitants, and for some reason it had decided it's creation had gone wrong and wanted to wipe the slate clean and start over? And the sixteen original Vessels all banded together to stop it, some of them 'good' like Ati, some of them 'bad', like Rayse, but all of them equally invested in self-preservation? Just saying, I think a lot of the theorizing about Adonalsium and its opposition is based off the assumption that its opposition was innately nefarious or had/has nefarious intentions, and that might be a mistake.

Ari, I believe the point Oversleep is trying to make is less about the mechanics of Awakening, and more about how it's nature is tied to Endowment's Intent. No matter the specific role Breath plays in the process of Awakening, the fact that Breath has to be Endowed makes the entire nature of the magic system inseparable from Endowment's Intent. Not to mention the fact that one Breath is barely enough fuel to do anything, most useful Commands require much more than that, and Breath can't be taken from another person by force, one person must always willingly Endow his or her Breaths on another person in order for that person to accumulate large quantities of Breath. From that perspective, Awakening is more visibly of Endowment than even Allomancy is of Preservation, IMO.

I can see your point on some of them, like Inspiration. Invention or Delirium are the ones I feel most confident about. Something like Invention would essentially be divine creativity, the act of making something entirely new....I see it as being the same 'kind' of Shard as Endowment or Cultivation, but without overlapping Intents. Something like Inspiration could be what a Splinter of that Shard would look like, perhaps. As for Delirium, something like 'divine madness' would essentially be disorder or chaos....it'd fit along the lines of Odium or Ruin without overlapping Intents there either. Revolution perhaps isn't the best name for how I picture that Intent, but I was thinking something along the lines of the Intent of Change, like radical transformation, the influx of new ideas or information leading to acting on a new position or moving in a new direction.

I've always guessed based on the naming conventions, the following might be good candidates: Invention Inspiration Revolution Serenity (or Tranquility, if Brandon was wary of Firefly references, haha) Delirium

Yup, exactly. In Elantris, the novel, they always established that they didn't know what putting the Elantrians through the Shardpool actually did, so it's entirely possible that they went through, thinking they had finally had enough of immortality (pre-Reod), or the madness (post-Reod) and that they were going to their deaths or some kind of final rest....only instead to find themselves in the Cognitive Realm or at another Shardpool elsewhere.

Well, weren't there Elantrians of all different ages in Elantris, the novel? Some were newer, like Raoden, but some of them were centuries old and just rendered mad by the effects of the Reod. Point being, we never really got to see much of the Elantrians after they recovered. There was no real time at the end of the novel for the older Elantrians to share all their knowledge with Raoden and the newer ones, so it's entirely possible that there were ones who remembered Devotion and referenced her in their epithets, and shared their knowledge of the Shards with the younger generations off-panel, after the events of the novel. Personally, I do think that these are the Elantrians who went through Devotion's Shardpool, and it fixed some of the effects of the Reod when they emerged elsewhere....but also it meant that they weren't present to be completely 'fixed' when Raoden solved the problem. So they're in a kind of in between state, and they're a blend of older Elantrians and younger ones, depending on when they were individually put in the Shardpool.

I forget where it was but at one of the recent signings someone asked how many Shards are Splintered and how many are whole, and Brandon said it was roughly half and half. Now, we don't know if he's saying roughly eight of the original Vessels like Ati and Leras are dead, or if he's counting Shards like Endowment as Splintered given that all the Divine Breaths she gives out are Splinters of her. But either way, it suggests at least eight of the original Vessels are still around and kicking (including Edgli/Endowment, Cultivation, Odium and most likely Autonomy).

Hmm, now I'm wondering if a question like 'Were any of the original 16 Shardholders involved in opposing Adonalsium' would get an actual answer or just a RAFO.

It definitely sounds like the first hint of how allomancy could lead to accessing Shadesmar, and from there, worldhopping.

I assumed it was Braize. We know its also called Damnation and its where the Heralds go between Desolations. Its possible there is other life on it or creatures of some kind, but if any Shard world is cognitively represented as a wasteland of near-nothingness, that would be my guess.

Going off this specific question, Brandon saying they've been referenced elsewhere doesn't contradict him saying elsewhere that we've seen the planet they're from before. The key word in this question was 'society'. So for instance, the specific advanced society featured in Sixth of Dusk could be the Scadrian civilization from the southern hemisphere, the ones who use mechanical allomancy. In that context, we've seen the planet the Ones Above are from, while only having seen the specific 'advanced society trying to take advantage' in that story only referenced before, in AoL and other Words of Brandon about Scadrial.

Totally random thought, but I'm wondering what AIs or machine intelligences in the cosmere would look like. Like what if the final Mistborn trilogy, the sci-fi one, had scientific advancements with mechanically allomancy that allowed them to tether cognitive shadows like Kelsier to the physical realm. I dunno, haven't thought this through at all, but just had this mental image of Kelsier as like the AI consciousness of an allomantic spaceship. Anyone ever watch that sci-fi show ANDROMEDA with Kevin Sorbo, where the ships all had AIs who were called 'the ships made flesh'? Something like that. Anyway, sorry to derail, suddenly just super obsessed with the idea of sci-fi allomancy being used to resurrect Kelsier or Identity metalminds used to give machines or spaceships some kind of additional human consciousness or realmatic advancements leading to artificial spren, like boosting inanimate objects' or forces' cognitive sense of self until they develop actual sapiency. *rushes off to ponder these things in depth*

Its worth pointing out though that all instances of Worldhopping or Worldhoppers we've seen so far are limited to very small groups. It could be that even with the knowledge to Worldhop as an individual or in a group of three, Worldhopping isn't practical for transporting large groups or resources, thus still requiring Worldhopping-capable cultures to develop ships for trade, military purposes, and large scale exploration.

To be fair, what you're arguing about is really just a matter of personal taste. Just because the FTL questions don't interest you doesn't mean the same 'why does it matter when its not relevant to the story at hand' couldn't be applied to where Scadrians get silk or what the diameter of the Final Empire is. The signings are for asking whatever questions fans want to ask. As for why things like the FTL questions matter so much to so many fans when we know we'll get the answers eventually - in over a decade at minimum....many of us simply enjoy speculation. We like finding clues, connecting dots, building theories, so that when all ultimately is revealed, we can see how our theories lined up with actuality. Some of us are just impatient. There's no right or wrong way to read, theorize, or wish for expansion on the cosmere. I can understand and sympathize with frustration at missed opportunities when it seems the majority of fans aren't interested in asking the kind of questions you'd like to see answered, but that doesn't make those questions any less valid than your own.

Well Fortuity, unlike atium users, had a very specific weakness (not directly related to precognition) that was being exploited. Atium users only weakness is other atium users, which doesn't apply in a Mistborn vs non Mistborn battle.

Right, that's what I meant by him not being indicative of what other Shards are like.

While I tend to agree that I don't think the recipient of the letter is a Shardholder, I do want to point out that even with as many cosmere books out there as there are, its impossible to say WHAT a living Shardholder does and acts like. The only original Shardholders we've actually seen were all in an atypical state when we saw them. The closest we've come to seeing a living Shardholder 'onscreen' in their 'normal' state is in Alloy of Law, and they're a very unique case so hardly indicative of what the other Shards are like. As far as the others go, Endowment, Cultivation, the as yet unnamed Shards....who knows what they're like or how they actually interact with their worlds on a day to day basis? For all we know, one of the Shards we've yet to meet does spend a lot of time manifested in the Physical Realm, capable of interacting with normal humans or doing something as mundane as receiving a letter.

Its possible I'm misremembering, its been awhile since I read any Brooks. I do know though that any references to old Earth in the first couple of Shannara series were vague and background at most. It wasn't until he wrapped up his Running with the Demon urban fantasy series ten to fifteen years ago that he revealed the two 'universes' actually shared a setting though.

Michael Moorcock is also known for how interconnected his stories are. In particular, anything that falls under The Eternal Champion banner is part of the same universe. The individual series take place in different time periods, on different worlds, featuring different protagonists, who are all incarnations of the same Eternal Champion caught up in a multiverse spanning war between the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law. The Deathgate Cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickmann is a seven book series that has some similarities to the cosmere, as it spans several different worlds with a book taking place on each world with its own standalone story that contributes to the overall plot of the series. For instance, there was a world where all the landmasses floated in the sky, a world with four suns that made it always day and made all the plantlife grow to sizes so big cities could be built in the trees, a world where the seawater was breathable and a world where everyone lived in caverns below the ground. Terry Brooks has had multiple series set in his Shannara universe, but then he also had urban fantasy books set on modern day Earth, only to reveal twenty years into publishing all of his works that the Shannara books were actually set in Earth's distant future and the modern day urban fantasies set up how that came to be and tied directly in. Simon R. Green has multiple fantasy series that range from high fantasy to urban fantasy, and they all take place in an interconnected universe though those interconnections are rarely played up and usually take the form of supporting characters from one series playing a minor role in another. There's a number of sci-fi authors who've done similar things as well. Brandon's cosmere is unique in the nature of his interconnected worlds and stories, but it would be a mistake to contribute to any kind of myth that he's the first author to build a shared universe among their own works, or even on this scale. Moorcock's Eternal Champion series in particular is huge in scope, and he's been adding to it for decades. The most famous of his EC series revolves around Elric of Melnibone, who is basically an albino sorcerer elf king with a soul drinking sentient sword with a lot of similarities to Nightblood actually. Other EC series follow an incarnation called Jerry Cornelius on a world similar to Earth in the 1900s, there are two series following an incarnation called Corum in a world heavily influenced by Celtic mythology, there's a Dorian Hawkmoon incarnation in a far future Earth ruled by an evil empire version of Great Britain with a melding of science and magic, and a time traveling incarnation called Bastable who visits several different alternate timelines and realities during the course of his books. And still others I'm forgetting or some who only had one book, etc. Those are just the 'big series' in the EC universe. I've actually got a fantasy series in the works that'll be the first entry in a shared universe for my own stuff, where the different series will take place on different worlds, but within the same universe. I'm sure that a lot of people will think I'm copying Brandon, which is too bad. With all due respect to Brandon, I'm actually 'copying' Roger Zelazny and Michael Moorcock.