Gloom

Poor Amians. No one ever remembers them unless they want to kill something. For what it's worth, we have two separate set of information. We have Vorinism, which claims that humanity was indeed forced out of the Tranquiline Halls and onto Roshar, and we have WoB that says that Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar together, and that they were an item. I think that Brandon provided us with an awful lot of evidence to support the idea that the Parsh are the Voidbringers. I think that, outside of Shinovar, Roshar was not designed for human life. It still remains well inside the life belt, but if Roshar was intended to support human life, I think it would all be far more like the other human worlds we've seen. We've already seen a Shard adjust a planetary orbit on Scadrial. We have WoB that Odium came after Honor and Cultivation, so the Shards would ahve been unopposed when life was created or brought to Roshar.

So you believe that over the course of more than 4000 years, the curse suddenly got worse all of a sudden, and this is an example of Occam's Razor?

Odd, the only motivation I recall that was ever displayed for Hoid was that he was standing in opposition to Odium. Standing against Odium should be a no-brainer. Did I miss a quote?

Fabrial science isn't a new art, it's a lost art being rediscovered. A Soulcaster fabrial is not a new invention, it's an old one. What you just described, is a fabrial. It may work on slightly different principles than what they are currently using, but it would still be a fabrial. I don't think the KR had any great awe of ordinary spren. I doubt it is all that hard to make a distinction between bonding spren and wild spren. I don't see why they would have a problem using captured spren in fabrials.

Just for future reference, it appears that Brandon reads a little bit further each time he re-reads a section of the book. If he appears to be reading something that was already read, it might be a good idea to record it anyways if you brought the equipment.

They lived underground. They don't now, but they have lived underground for centuries. Living underground is far more hazardous than living above ground. They would need light, food, space to grow food, space to live, ways to ensure the air stayed clean, a safe way to create more space, a pecking order to decide who got the food when things grew scarce, population control, genealogies, plague control, etc. What they would never have is sunlight, wide open spaces, a plethora of resources, or a self renewing environment. If you have to rip apart the soul of an animal to help make your environment more survivable, then I don't think it would even be a topic of debate. You would do it because most people are already at a subsistence level of survival. They wouldn't have the leisure to take the moral high ground. I'm not saying that I think that this tech is based on Hemalurgy, but if it is, I wouldn't be surprised if they used people, as well as animals. I don't know if trees would even be an option given the environment. It may be now, provided the land was seeded, but not when they were forced to live beneath the surface. Three hundred years is barely a drop in the bucket for many of the historical societies of our planet to change. Human sacrifice is as old as time, and still goes on to this day, and we don't even get any powers from it. I think it is naive to think that a society wouldn't be able to maintain itself using such methods. We, as human beings, can justify almost any atrocity. We can convince ourselves that sacrificing our own children is for the greater good. We can be proud of what we were willing to give up, take pride in the death of our loved ones. As long as it didn't threaten the family line, it would be tolerated without question if the need was apparent. Those who made to much noise about it would be scorned by their neighbors, neighbors who have made the same sacrifices and bore them stoically. If you think the society the LR commanded was harsh, just think about how harsh the one he abandoned would be if Hemalurgy was the only means he gave them to survive. Yes, survive. I doubt that they would be capable of surviving without whatever magic the LR provided them with. Surviving for a millennium beneath the surface with a tech level equal to that of the other continent would have been nearly impossible without magic.

Odd, when I think of the lore surrounding Jesus, I can think of a few more miracles than that. Raising the dead seems like kind of a big deal, feeding thousands with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread seems pretty impressive as well. Cursing a tree and causing it to wither seems kind of out of the ordinary. Curing leprosy, the blind, and the infirm is kind of mundane after raising the dead, but might be worthy of a footnote. Lets see, oh, rebuking a storm and having it instantly calm is kind of a neat trick as well. I suppose exorcisms and slapping around a few demons is somewhat abstract, but he was reported to have done this as well. Yeah, I don't think surface tension and transformation will be enough to actually be Jesus, might be able to put on a good impersonation though.

Eh? I would think that such a science would appeal to Palah (learned/giving). A fabrial was used by the Stoneward in Skyfall, so at the least, KR found the art useful.

Speaking of Dalinar and stone, one of the things that bothered me when I read the book last was that during the Chasm Fiend hunt, just before they saw it, the ground shook and Dalinar thought 'earthquake?' Roshar is Seismically inactive, so where the heck did he get the word earthquake? Rockslide I could see, asking if a building collapsed, etc. but earthquake? Definitely Stoneward PS: I voted Skybreaker

Lift is sucked dry by the Amian wasp thing. She can't summon her Awesomeness at all. Then she eats a roll and it starts trickling back almost immediately. This happens slower than taking in Stormlight, but still far to quickly to be a result of digestion, let alone fat storage. I agree that it is likely that fat storage can be drawn upon, but she can apparently convert food directly into investiture as well. I'm not saying she would be able to convert metals, as she lacks the appropriate investiture to do so, but if she ate Hoids little bead, that might change. Lift is a thief, lets hope she steals Hoids bead, eats it and becomes an Allomancer

It's interesting what goes on with Lift. Her pool of investiture was bone dry after being subjected to the captured Amian Wasp thing. She ate a roll, and almost immediately began to refill her pool. This leads me to believe that unlike an ordinary Surgebinder, she has a constant reserve of energy waiting to be used, but that pool of energy takes longer to fill. It also indicates that the food doesn't need to be digested physically for her to obtain energy, because while a roll may digest quickly, it doesn't digest that quickly. The sausage that followed would certainly take longer to digest than the roll, but once again, she quickly metabolizes the food into investiture. In regards to the speed of energy conversion: Drawing Stormlight from gemstones = the speed of breath. Drawing investiture from food = longer. She can do it fast, but not as fast as breathing. Kaladin can drain the Stormlight from an entire bag full of Spheres in one breath, Lift, I would assume, needs to eat a large meal or convert body fat to obtain an equal amount of investiture. If Lift was better fed, and had fat stores that I'm assuming she could convert, I don't think the Wasp would have been able to affect that until the conversion took place.

I'm going to agree with Meg and Weiry. A rain spren isn't exactly sentient by any definition I know of. It appears when it's raining and stands up in puddles doing nothing. Flame spren dance around in fires, not exactly a sign of intelligence . I would agree that all bonding spren are splinters.

Ahh, I was thinking, and this is most likely wrong, that most of the 'wild' spren, such as flame spren and ordinary wind spren and oddities like Cusicesh were Adonalsium spren. I had it in my head that Honor and Cultivation invested additional power into some of those spren to alter them into spren who were splinters of their own. Those would have been what eventually became bonding spren. This would help make sense of quotes like the one where Brandon said 'heralds were "created" by Honor in a similar way to spren'. If Honor didn't actually create the spren, just re-made them into Honorspren, then we don't have a contradiction. Jezrien is the king of the Heralds and was a king before he became a Herald. That is, I believe, cannon.

Lets just say that not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.

The Theory regarding the curse that was placed upon the Heralds Originates here. It is presumed that 'Ash' is in reference to Shallash. source I don't believe that Cultivation has to give a boon. The Nightwatcher does this for its own reasons, but I don't believe that the Shard is compelled to follow that formula.

Yeah, three habitable planets in the system. I think Honor set his humans up on a neighboring planet. I think that the planet was the basis for the legend about the Tranquiline Halls. My thoughts on the matter have been laid out here I am firmly on board with the Heralds not being spren or splinters though.

I believe that humans are definitely not native to Roshar. I'm on the fence about the Parsh. I'm not sure if they are natural to Roshar either. It's possible that they followed humanity to Roshar. If the Parsh are the Voidbringers that forced mankind from heaven and have pursued them to Roshar, then the Parsh would also be alien to the planet.

I don't believe that I saw Kaladin lashing till about a year after his bond began to form. He still isn't very good at it. We still haven't see Kaladin flying, though his Order was capable of doing so. If the crisis theory is correct, and I don't think it necessarily has to apply, we don't know Jasnahs story after all. Then Dalinars conflict could be with his ability to lead confidently and justly as easily as anything else. The presumption that has been floating around for quite a while that spren avoid people with Shards has been proven wrong. This would have occurred sooner, but for the debate about whether or not Cryptics were bonding spren. Now that Cryptics have been confirmed to be bonding spren by WoB, we can put to rest the theory that no bonding spren will bond to a Shardbearer. Shallan has a Shardblade, and she has been bonded. I don't doubt that some spren types will avoid Shardbearers, but this is not an absolute. A bond can and has been made with a Shardbearer.

I believe that he was referring to bonding spren. In the context of the question I don't see any reason why Brandon would feel a need to differentiate. I can't find the new quote referring to adonalsium however, even after searching for over an hour. So if you have that quote on hand, I'd be happy to see it in full with apparently more information than I've been privy to.

I will agree that bonding spren are splinters. They fit the definition and we have WoB that this is so. I would be careful about saying a flamespren is a splinter though because a flame spren is, as far as we know, not sentient. If it isn't sentient, it isn't, by Brandons own definition a Splinter. I will grant you that it's possible that the Heralds have splinters inside them. I personally don't think that the evidence point to this, but it isn't clear either way. I will say that Hoid has been around at least as long as the Heralds. I will say that the Awakened were dead before they were embedded with splinters, and I will also say that their are quite a few world hoppers around. I will also agree that it is possible that the Tranquiline Halls are in the spiritual or cognitive realms. I don't personally subscribe to this theory but it's possible. It's just as possible that they are on another planet in the same system as Roshar. Since the Heralds are immortal, this isn't exactly any more of a stretch than your theory. When asked if this was the case, the question was RAFOed.

Yeah, not cannon. Not even a direct quote, just a summary of what someone remembered from a reading.

I don't agree. Heralds were men. They were invested with power by a Shard, but they are not Splinters, and they are not Slivers. Spren were created by Adonalsium, and invested with power by Shards (or I suppose it could be argued that bonding spren were created by the Shards and modeled off of existing spren). This additional investiture made them Splinters. Regardless of how Honor invested the Heralds, they aren't like spren, they are men and women who can make their own decisions. Spren are bound to act in accordance with the intent of their Shards, or in the case of wild spren, the intent left behind by Adonalsium. I don't know where you're getting your information about where the Heralds are sent. Please provide a quote that is cannon. From what I understood, they return to the Tranquiline Halls. I don't recall any information that stated the location of where these halls are except for the doctrine of the Vorin religion, which also claims that the KR betrayed mankind and are evil.

Spren! I like spren, I think most of them are from Adonalsium. I think that both Honor and Cultivations added additional investiture to some of them making then splinters, but that most spren are still wild. I believe that Syl is like a cousin to windsren, because she was a windspren before receiving additional investiture from Honor. I believe that most of the spren that we will eventually know as Honorspren lose their connection to the Cognitive when unbonded, and that most of those who are Cultivation spren maintain that connection. To my thinking Cryptics, Vinespren, and other Cultivation aspected spren dwell primarily in the Cognitive and spren like Syl dwell primarily in the spiritual. This is why Syl requires a connection to the Physical in order to access the Cognitive, while spren like Wyndle don't. Prior to the Splintering, this may have been different. I believe that there are more Honor spren than there were prior to the Splintering because the splinters of Honor were drawn to the existing investiture left behind by Adonalsium. If this is correct, then we can see far more Honorspren than had ever existed before. I'll wait to see what is challenged before I start my quote hunt.

And another person nitpicks at the post while ignoring the content. Thank you for your contribution. All the while you ignore that this theory was completely faulty. Spen are splinters. People can't be Splinters.

I believe that one could argue with equal validity, that the Heralds began to persecute the KR prior to the Recreance. That it was due to this persecution and political maneuverings of the Heralds that the KR disbanded. That the KR discovered who was behind it all and basically flipped the Heralds off and threw in the towel. We just don't know. What we can guess is that at some point Cultivation cursed the Heralds. We can guess that the curse was neurological in nature, and that this curse warped how the Heralds see the world. I would speculate that this happened after the Recreance, and the reason for it was because she blames them for Tanavasts death and the splintering of the Honor Shard. Now I will tell you when I believe this may have happened and why. I don't believe that Cultivation would have interfered with Honors champions while Tanavast was still alive. Tanavast showed a clear picture of the Recreance to Dalinar, and said at the end that he wasn't very good at seeing the future as an explanation as to why the last vision was fragmented. So I believe that Cultivation, bless her heart, cursed each of the Heralds for Tanavasts death. If each of the Heralds has been cursed neurologically, then the behavior we see from Heralds we encounter will, as has been previously speculated, be warped. In the event that Darknessis a Herald, we can't expect him to act rationally or seek those who are deserving of his attention. He is cursed. To learn more about why I believe the Heralds are cursed, read the Jasnah interlude in the WoR subfolder