Robinski

I'm not experienced enough in the group to vote. Although, since the group has been going on for 10+ years, it may have been attempted before. My guess that the reason why we don't go through Google Drive and instead use the forum is because there are a high degree of people who join and then...disappear. @Snakenaps, you absolutely get a vote. This is not some kind of stuff, set-in-its-ways group where a bunch of cronies run the show. It's a open group and that goes for voices being heard too. Everyone should feel free to have an opinion on this topic, or anything else See, I had to pinch myself when this came up in one of our emails, as you know. I think it's quite some achievement what you've done so far, and how committed to the project you are. Well done <thumbs up> I believe the first rule of vampire club is don't...er...nevermind. Yeah, this is one very important point. Another one, @Turin Turambar, is that I think you will actually get less feedback by going the complete draft route. Think about it this way. If we all put drafts of our novels up on drive, that would be--what--maybe six or seven novels all going up at once? That's going to be something like 500,000 to 700,000 words all appearing at the same time. Who's going to read that, and how long is it going to take them? The reality, I think, will be that one or two projects will get all the reads and others might be left languishing unread. You end up with a two-tier system (at least) and some folks get no crits at all. Another thing to consider: the format we have results in us getting through a powerful amount of critiquing. Potentially 25,000 words a week, in parallel with our own writing. I think that's massive, and I don't think We already have an alpha readers thread, and anyone is free at any time to post up there looking for a complete read, where they can email their M/S (and therefore have more control over distribution) to individuals who put their hands up. As @Mandamon said, we have had offshoot groups like Write About Dragons, where a handful of us went through Brandon's online course in parallel with subbing to that group. As with this group, I think we started with maybe 10 folks and ended up with three of four, the rest disappeared, starting from quite early on. So, I would say, it ain't broken; let's not fix it

I personally don't have an issue with it, but I also worry that because we just read it, we also might be biased from our previous experience. So I think that as long as you know we aren't reading it with fresh eyes that it'll be fine. Hey, @Turin Turambar. I guess this means that me not getting around to your previous sub is an advantage, as I hope to get back into critiquing next week. So, I can read your resubmission with completely fresh eyes. In fact, I'm quite intrigued now I've read this little chat here. I will not read your previous thread before Monday.

Fantastic! Details, please, if you don't mind me asking. What is the name of the reservoir in No.2 and the bay in No.3?

I still do this when I'm on holiday, or away from the house was more than a day or two.

It didn't. The guy at the App Store said if they tried to change it in the shop and punctured the battery they would have to evacuate the shop

Timely reminder indeed. I can declare support for this advice. My iPhone died horribly and I had to get a replacement at short notice (it was a battery issue: phone started swelling up and splitting the case open ). But I had backed up to iTunes, so that was fine, right? Wrong! The device refused to restore from the iTunes back up because the phone didn't have the latest iOS on it (or iTunes, I forget now). However, I had also backed up to the iCloud--double backups--so I was iRelieved to be able to iRestore from the iCloud. Okay, probably I could have completed the set-up without restoring, updated the software and gone back to restore from iTunes, but the moral is '#ListenToSnakenaps Snakenaps gives good advice!'

Hey @Turin Turambar. Well now, that's an interesting question: 1) - Self-defence: someone comes at me, I would defend myself, I presume! Given the chance, and if that involved using a makeshift weapon to strike back, I guess it's possible I would kill them. On the basis that I'm in a position where I'm fearing for my life, I might well think it was the only way to get out of the situation alive; 2) - Protecting my family / family member: see above. Maybe I can drive the attacker away? I can't imagine I'd start out with the intention to killing, just of getting out of the situation. 3) - Protecting an innocent party: Would I push someone off a roof (for example, i.e. guaranteeing their death) if they were about to kill someone else? Can I be 100% certainly it's clear good vs. evil, and do I have the moral certainty to end an attackers life? I don't know. 4) - The greater good: would I kill a 'bad person' to end the suffering of many more people? For example, would I shoot a terrorist if I had the ability to do so (weapon, opportunity and incontrovertible evidence), i.e. to be judge, Judy and executioner? I really don't know. The thing is, you very specifically as about murder, which implies to me that I am not in the right, morally. I think perhaps 1) and 2) about would be justifiable homicide (or something like that, the right technical term), and maybe 3) and 4) manslaughter? I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but I'm not sure any of these scenarios would constitute murder, where I would be in the wrong, 100%. So, I guess you are asking about crossing a moral line. Would I murder someone for $1,000,000? No, I wouldn't. Would I do it for $5,000,000? No, because I'm in the fortunate position to be comfortable financially (atm!), and I would rather keep my peace of mind and what I have presently. It seems to me that I would need to be acted on by some unforeseen external circumstances that would need to change who I am in order to resort to murder. I really don't know if this helps, but you wanted opinions

Oh, wow. While that sounds funky, I'm sure it's a massive pain. Good luck with that

Yeah, @aeromancer, I only read paperbacks, I don't do hardbacks or eBooks (unless no other format is available), and the PB doesn't hit the UK until April 2021. Actually, I've also listened to all the Dresden audiobooks too, and I can pick that up now on Audible, which I have, but I'm in the middle of The Gutter Prayer by Gareth Hanrahan, so I need to finish that off first. The narration of the Dresden Files ABs is by James Masters of Buffy infamy! It is hands down the best narration I've ever heard, and I've listened to a lot of audiobooks in parallel with my reading. it's the only way I stand any chance of getting current after being lapsed for so long. Did not know about Mirror Mirror, good tip! RP? Hah! Interesting idea. I probably wouldn't myself due to being time poor, but then I've RP'd online. Then again, time difference makes it a btch participating in conversation sometimes, when all the buzz happens while you're asleep!

I absolutely love the Dresden Files. I discovered them about 3 years ago, and have caught up the 15 volumes to date, and also the shorts too in the interim. I am bursting to read the new one. Did you hear Jim Butcher on Writing Excuses a couple of weeks ago? It was an excellent episode about how to sustain interest over a long series. JB is the man to speak to about this!!! There was nothing earth-shattering in the episode, but he just spoke to well and sensibly about the process of writing, I thought, and how to approach things. Well worth a listen. Not read any of his other stuff (Codex or Cinder Spires). Hey, @TheDwarfyOne, I have only been to one con, which was WorldCon 2019 in Dublin and it blew my freakin' mind. @kais, @Mandamon, @Silk, @industrialistDragon and @Asmodemon being there in Eire, plus having about 15 of the Glasgow writing group I'm a member of there too made it the most amazing experience I've had in connection with writing. It's one of these, the more you put in things. I volunteered to go on panels as a complete newbie (to cons) and was put on one about the rule of the gumshoe in SFF. What do you know? First thing I mentioned was Harry Dresden. See, it's all connected. Seriously though, a con can be can be an amazing experience, although I guess things will be way different now.

We can but hope. And, there are numerous Munros with relatively easy reach of Glasgow such that it would not be a major exercise to do that

I think I'm going to have to charter an aircraft and fill it with RE personnel So, who knows what will happen between now and then, but I believe the Glasgow bid for WorldCon 2024 is still a thing... Just saying

Eh, yeah, they certainly aren't in NY. Hey! You'd be most welcome Here's a picture to whet your appetite: the view from Ben Lomond south along Loch Lomond towards Glasgow. (Robinski not pictured).

LOL, on a bike, MAYBE. Hard yes. I go for a 20 minute 'power' walk every morning, usually about 6am. Later, hopefully, I will get out in the garden for a solid 2 or 3 hours of gardening. At my age, I have to look after the temple that is my body. It's more of an old church; hole in the roof and rising damp in the foundations. Ditto. I know a lot of people whose knees are totally fecked. I suspect it's because the run portion is aligned with the Olympic distance. Not sure why the others would not be also, but that's my theory. Cool snake! In the first picture, those little bumps look more like hills? Nice view in the second pic: now we're talking In Scotland, we have hills classified as Munros, which are hills over 3,000 feet. There are 282. Some folks make it their life's ambition to climb them all. I am not one of those people. I've done like, maybe 10?

Pfff, lightweight

New acronym for me, which I am assuming has nothing to do with the US postal service. I assume you found it? Unique Selling Point, in case you didn't. Marketing speak that has leached into common usage. (I use the word 'leached' advisedly.) Buy a liquorice shirt then, just in case. Ir has an excellent voice, and the setting is strong and interesting. I think your writing also has a confidence to it; the ideas are good and character interactions are interesting, believable, satisfying. Sure, there's plenty to do, but it's only Draft 2. You might have another four drafts before you got somewhere near something you would want to sub around. The central conceit of the world, the different categories of beings, works, IMO, and works well as a concept. It's very entertaining and thought-provoking. It's been done before in certain similar ways: it definitely works. Richard Scary's books and Blacksad came to mind before, Larry Niven's Known Space books is another example (the Kzinti are awesome!!), and of course David Brin's Uplift Universe books themselves. The issue of how mundane and 'uplifted' creatures and therios and Fey all interact is a fascinating and intriguing question, and something I would very much like to read more about. The challenge of working that out is something I am sure everyone here would be more than happy to brainstorm if you wanted to do that 'in the open' (although it might be best done in camera since it's likely to be fundamental to the story). If you want my 10c on this, spitballing out loud, I think I'd want to go back to the beginning and figure out how this came to pass, and maybe you have done this already. (1) How did creatures that, presumably, were mundane originally, become imbued with intelligence? (2) Then there are therios, which I think are the humanoid creatures with animal attributes? The Kzinti would qualify in this category, if I've understood it. I found this very interesting derivation: https://www.theriofoundation.org/page/UnderstandingTherio. How did humans and animals get combined so that you can, in this world, meet a humanoid with a tiger's head and claws, but that in all other ways has the attributes of a human? (3) Then there are the Fey, which I still don't have an explanation of, to a degree that gives me a sound footing. Like I said, it is such a fertile area for debate and fascinating narrative in the early part of the story

Yes, definitely. This is one of the story's USPs. I can't recall many stories (there are some*, but they tend to by short stories) that have culinary skill as a major strand, so I think it's well worth bringing it to the fore even more, and making it sing. Yeah, see, even this line...it rather implies that animals are uncivilised, but they are not that way through choice! Surely, it is much more than civilisation that distinguishes an intelligent animal from a mundane one. That feels to me like a big issue. Let's say that your books take off: you would have hundreds of fans scrutinising the implications of your society and how it works. I feel it really needs to stand up to this kind of detailed scrutiny and not break down too readily. I mean, it can still break down, as many worlds do, but surely it needs to hold up long enough for the reader to suspend their disbelief. It is a really, really interesting debating point. I think it deserves examination in the earlier chapters, and religion seems a good way to come at it. * Plug for my WorldCon panel pal Jon Courtenay Grimwood https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=45PflwEACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions

#iagreewithsnakenaps

Yes, dear? Oh, yea, don't do that It's also an historic method of preserving bodies. If you are into Grimdark, the Empires of Dust trilogy by Anna Smith Spark is dark and powerful stuff. She has a vibrant literary style that is very compelling, IMO. Anyway, in Book 2 (The Tower of Living and Dying) a dead king is similarly 'stored' in honey for transportation to his homeland. I must admit I was barely aware of this practice, but it certainly chimed with me when it appeared in your story. It occurs to me now, though, to ponder where it is not much more expensive to use honey in this situation? I mean, why would poor people be embalmed at all? Not at all There's a school of thought that you don't want the reader getting distracted with words they don't know, but that's a fast road to lowest common denominator. I'll admit I used to think that, about not using obscure words, but I've got over it. Ah, does it? Care to extrapolate? It's a religious ideal, here. Permanence vs. transience. I didn't feel like delving into the nuts and bolts of religious practice was strictly necessary, though. Background rather than foreground material. I found the application of the term a bit confusing in the sense that, unlike someone who is in stasis in a colony space ship, for example, this chap is not going to be woken up, unless they mean in a spiritual sense, and he will be reawakened in heaven? In my head, stasis in a temporary condition, or at least it's capable of being reversed, which death presumably will not be. Or is that what they believe? I dunno. Maybe it's just a mental cue-de-sac that I went down by myself. If no one else thought it worthy of comment then I reckon we can move on. - "lead this child of stasis to the gods" - ...or not. I've just read the line again. So, I take the line to mean that the corpse was a 'child of stasis' during his life, which implies that life is a condition that the religion equates life with stasis, def. 'a period of inactivity or equilibrium'. I just think there is a big metaphysical debate to be had around this idea, which is quite interesting, and I could totally get behind the idea that a portion of society would rebel against the idea that their lives were 'a period of inactivity or equilibrium'. If that is what this terminology is supposed to mean as used by the priest. Put it another way, it's all very well to use a neat phrase, however this sort of thing is world-building, and will have implications on your world, society and the people that live in it. It should be the sort of thing the affects the story in a positive way, i.e. by giving the setting more depth. Well, it's just a matter of degrees. Clearly they do not live in nice accommodation. It could be the first fish they've had in days, the last of the bread, whatever. It was just that the food didn't seem to have a cost associated with it which made me think they had no shortage. I mean, who doesn't? It has been known. I tend to disagree once or twice just to keep things interesting. You know, maybe on a leap year. Well, Peter Jackson has significant experience with practical effects. Just need to look at Braindead

Good point: agree. I leapt to the assumption that it is the priesthood that runs the country, or at least the city, either a theocracy, or as the tool of some monarchy's authority? I wonder if this was supposed to be explained in the prologue, or Chapter 1? If so, I did not really get that as clear takeaway, or it's WRS and I've forgotten. #iagreewithmandamon I don't think it's essential--I was willing to go with the vagueness--but I agree it reduces buy-in to dad's motivations, and therefore by association to H's. I was in doubt over this. I mean, he certainly verbally abuses her, but with the blow coming from his arm, and not his hand, it sounded less deliberate to me, and I almost thought it was accidental? Unsure, but I kept reading, figuring it might become clearer. Good point. I meant to comment on the last line of the chapter too. Juices running down his chin is a really trope for someone being greedy and generally vile. Perhaps the best 'recent' example is the scene in Minas Tirith with Denethor when Merry comes to challenge him about Faramir. I've never been able to look at a cherry tomato the same since. My point is, it feels a bit 'tell-y', like a sledgehammer blow when we've already got that he's a baddy. Anything that comes at the end of a chapter automatically has more weight than the same line in the body of the chapter. I think the juices is kind of unsubtle. Dad being fat too, is a clear sign that he is not underfed. It raises all sorts of questions about whether he withholds food from H, as she is not really described, that I can recall. This brings another point that I forgot to tag, but @Mandamon has, which is the paucity of character for H. She seems quite brash and confident when she appears at first, but quickly becomes uncertain. Then, by the time she gets back home, she seems fearful. It's hard to tie down her character in my head, as Many points out. Still enjoyed it though

Hey, Dwarfy, Glad to be reading the next chapter. On to the comment! (page 1) - "red bandanna ducking" - Not sure this image is very clear. I mean, I think I get the idea, but it sounds like the bandana is ducking on its own, independent of her head. - "indicated the crowd felt the same" - Unclear: does the crowd feel the same as the speaker, or do they feel that the words are dangerous? Again, I think I know the answer, but the phrasing makes it unclear, IMO. - I get a very clear tone on the first page, which is good. (page 2) - I had to online search for 'gipon'. - "Everything was very clean" - It's not clear to me that this comment refers to his clothes. 'Everything' is unspecific here. - "child of stasis" - Huh? Confused. Stasis has a pretty specific meaning in SFF, by default anyway. So, does this mean he was a child of stasis while he lived, or is it purely referring to now that he's dead? I guess stasis could be in the sense of purgatory? I just think it's a bit unclear what I'm to draw from this phrase. - "I can get us in, at least partly" - Eh, what? This doesn't sound like a great proposal. Like 'I'll get you part way in, at which point you'll probably be caught.' - "How does that sound?" - it might be WRS on my part, but it doesn't sound like much. Swords are the sort of thing that I imagine it would be quite difficult to move on for actually cash money. Also, the dialogue, here, I think it could use a little polish. I like the idea, the tone, I just think it can flow better, have more bite, more swagger. - "older man from before stepped beside an urn" - Did I miss something, what older man? The one that answered P? Yeah, okay, fair enough. Also, phrasing 'stepped beside an urn', I think is missing something, grammatically. - "visibly holding back tears, stood beside another" - You don't need 'visibly' here. If our POV character can see it, it must be visible. Also 'stood beside another' - what? Young woman? That phrasing--the description--is weak, for me. (page 4) - "If she’d known he’d been that unstable" - tense slip. 'was' is fine here. - "A fleeing woman, probably forty, grabbed her arm" - The woman's age seems irrelevant here, kind of distracting. - "A was cradling the horizon" - Is A the moon? I would say it's 'cradled by the horizon'. (page 5) - "spending precious money on a bucket of clean water" - Did she have a bucket with her? I think she did not. So, did she purchase the bucket too? This seems unlikely. So, did she hire the bucket? - "protrudent" - not a word: protruding. - "And selling them will give us money and, with it, power" - I'm happy to believe that this plan is ill thought out by him, but I rally don't see how this is practical. Clearly, these swords are recognisable as they seem so rare. So, (1) anyone who might buy them would likely know where they had come from, or certainly that two ne'erdowells could never have owned them; (2) a couple of dropouts suddenly coming into massive wealth is going to be really suspicious, and attract the attention of the authorities; (3) I'm dubious about the money is power thing. I feel that, in this world, it's about more than that, it's about who/what you are and where you came from. So, I believe this is a bad plan. These are good characters, and the pain-wracked, bitter father ups the stakes for H. I think it's a well realised POV. As I read on, I'm glad she's expressing doubts about the plan. I'd be even happier to read as we go about her doubting it would work at all, or maybe P will come in and do that. (page 6) - "she got her breathing under control" - A very cold and mechanical phrase. I'd expect this of a trained solider, or an experienced thief, but she's not either of these. - They are clearly not destitute, as they have fish, bread and vegetables, none of which are mouldy or 'off'. - "But… but -" - Wiki has a good page on punctuation. There are two types of pause or interruption here, it's confusing to the eye. - Formatting of the last line: should be indented. OVERALL Decent chapter. I had some issues with details, but overall I thought it read well. I think this is our third POV in this new version of the story. That's okay, but as a reader I'm looking to latch onto someone as the main character and invest in their story, their motivations. Presently, I have, I think nine potentially important characters. I don't feel I can discount the two in the prologue as not recurring; there is the POV character, the two drinkers and the 'professor' in Chapter 1, and now three characters from this chapter to follow (I'm discounting the priest and P's father as bit players). There are a lot of moving parts for what is basically the first twenty pages of the story. Clearly, it's not wrong to take this approach, but I think it's more challenging to make both POVs compelling if they are going to run in parallel, and I have a sneaking concern that there might be more POVs coming (maybe not). I guess I am just saying that I have a slight concern as to the territory we are heading into. There's various advice from 'reputable' sources about--as a starting author--writing one good, compelling POV well to learn how to do it, and to demonstrate to agents and publishers that you can do it as a new author. That always seemed a bit glib to me as general advice. I get it, but really, as readers we've been absorbing multi-POV work for a long time, and surely must have learned a thing or two as we've read. I certainly haven't follow that advice myself. However, I think we can have multi-POVs but still have a clearly defined main character that we are most invested in, our guide through the story as it were. That's what I'm hoping for here, and that we get time to get to know them, invest in their motivations, and do not get into too much choppy head hopping. I'm enjoying the story. Two good POVs set up. I want to see them progressing now, and to get that character depth and investment

Yes... Oooh, bonus short story!!