Robinski

I was fine with this chapter in principle. Some detailed comments below. I see what Mandamon’s saying about the length. I was okay with the chapter lengthwise as a standalone read but, reading back-to-back instead of weekly, it’s really two chapters spent in heaven setting up the main premise – which I agree I might start to get fidgety about. This said there are a lot of ideas for the reader to get his/her round, and the dialogue is entertaining enough to carry me through the individual chapters fine, so why not one after the other? I become more concerned about Paul’s tone when I start to extrapolate. Does he talk to Simon that way? How does he speak to God, assuming he does? Or Gabriel? I think the reader needs to be able to respect Paul as having morale authority over Candace (Endurant notes a similar thought), and for that reason, maybe his shtick goes a bit far here and there. I'm very intrigued to read more, I'm not overly concerned about events to date, taking them as fantasy of course, but then I'm good at suspending disbelief – perhaps too good sometimes. This said, I think there is a limit to how fast and loose it’s advisable to play with the background material in terms of how many people will fail to connect or be lost along the way. The Wiki reference (below) brought another question to mind – one that might be answered as we read on – but I begin to wonder what role faith will play in the story. Candace seems to have been presented with a no-brainer, do what you’re told and you’ll get in. The more I think about the weighty concepts behind the story, the more I hope that there will be some examination of such things. Maybe it’s all a test of her faith in some way – not to do what she’s told, but what she thinks is right. Next chapter a new one for everyone, excellent!! --------------------------------------------------------- Page 1 - The reference to rubble vs. continuity, didn't Paul sweep all the stuff off his desk? Page 8 - A comment from pedantry corner. They certainly don't make first pressings of classic vinyl anymore, by definition, but any disk can be re-pressed (as opposed to repressed!) from a master. Many bands are still or have restarted issuing new albums or former releases as vinyl records – often in heavyweight vinyl (180g) – because the collectors market has never gone away, and is now growing again. (I work in a music shop on weekends). My point is, Paul's statement is not correct or, rather, is not as precise as it could be. Page 9 - The gauche archangels line made me laugh out loud, in my back garden, don’t think anyone heard. Page 9 - Some readers will not get the point of the Ferrari vs. Porsche reference. Page 13 - wooden staff? Page 14 – By this point, I'm thinking back trying to remember how much Candace swore in thought or in deed in the first chapter. To me it's doesn't connect that she would swear any more in the afterlife than she would on Earth, in fact I would have thought she should swear less now – I know she’s shocked and all. Page 14 - Paul's swear bothered me. I guess he did it to shock Candace but, firstly, I thought there were other moments in the conversation when she was less in control of herself. Secondly (and my real point), I'm not sure I have a grasp of where Paul’s boundaries are. This sent me to the internet <sigh> and the wiki page for Paul the apostle. Now – I’ll say right here that I am the last person who should be putting forward any kind of analysis of biblical references, and I know you’ve been very clear that it’s a fantasy, but it seems to me that a lot of readers will know some of this stuff or go look it out. Apparently, according to Wiki, one of Paul’s ideas was that ‘salvation is based on faith and not works of the law’. I wouldn’t have mentioned this at all, since I'm prepared to accept something as a fantasy, but I struck me that this is diametrically opposed to the notion that your Paul is presenting to Candace. Page 17 - Something about you referring to Paul as a monk sticks in my mind. Is he a monk, really? I see Mandamon mentioned this too. Page 18 - I feel as if the end of the chapter could have more impact. There are various points during it when there are reveals which are effective, but somehow I was expecting a bigger punch line right at the end.

Ah, this is great. October is a long way away, but certainly buzzing at the moment. The lectures are good, I like the bite-sized junks, shorter than Writing Excuses cast, nice and easy to fit one in when I have a spair moment from whatever. 2,148 words so far, got a good start yesterday with being on holiday - back to the 'grind' today. I have a meeting in the City at 10 which I'm all prepped for, so I will go to one of my Robinski-approved cafes and put some more words down, hopefully. I've got no objection to scanning over things in the interim, but I think I'm right in saying that next Monday will be our first submission date?

From my NaNo experience, counting word count has it's plusses and minusses. A comparison makes me write more, because I'm a competitive 'person', but does it make me write better? Who knows. I've come down firmly on the fence (ouch!).

I'm going to spread them out over the week, so I can gradually assimilate the guidance and try to apply bits here and there as I write. I don't have work today (score!) - it's a quaint little local holiday called the Glasgow Fair.

Yes, I should be up and running, but have a bit of a headache this morning (literal). Must, fight, through, pain. Must, put, words, on, page. So when is out submission day? Is it next Monday, life Ready Excuses, that would at least be easy for some of us to remember!! (Oh man, biggest submission roster on RE for weeks - three submissions - arrgghh!!)

Oh, you quibbler you ;o) Yes, I had a few goes at this. It's multiple people, which does lead to the problem you highlight. It doesn't help that you don't know that when reading that first version - where I do, of course - although it shouldn't matter. Here's an alternative. "The greatest threat to success is each other." I toiled a bit with the submission numbers too - I'm not sure how good I'll be a cutting 1,000 words out of the 3,000 (or whatever), that I've written. This said, I think we are now onto 2,000 word submissions, per Endurant's email above.

Last time I read this I did not have a great many comments - again, I haven’t reviewed those going into this re-read. Sorry about the delay, by the way, I’ve been prepping for going into the ‘Write About Dragons’ course with some of the other RE-ers. Also, I’ve recently watched a couple of vids on critiquing (MRK and Brandon on WaD), and I feel the need for an (open) apology up front. I know I mention grammar and language stuff, which are really not the main preserve of alpha-reading, but (1) I can’t help it; (2) I think it does help; (3) I’ll try double to make sure I cover the wider focus issues that are the point of critiquing in the first place; (4) I can’t help it. So, after re-reading – I still enjoyed this chapter. I have some comments, but I think it works pretty well. There are some descriptions that maybe feel a bit long, and I think there are sections, paragraphs and words that could be pruned to improve flow (I’ve not long ago listened to the WE Brevity podcast!), but I like this chapter. I think it’s still stronger than the first one. Detailed comments below, but I'd also like to give my reaction to the 'reaction' debate. I'm not a religious person, if anything I think I'm agnostic (which is a cop out, I suppose), but I always try to respect the faith of others (I hope). I guess this means it's easy for me to say I had no issue with your second chapter, but I do think that Mandamon's point is a good one. So far, it's really only Paul who we know anything about in terms of his character. I'm thinking that, if we spend the whole book in the company of a saint who displays values or character traits that are no more enlightened than those of an untidy and (apparently) flippant human, then it might become an issue. If he's the only one 'up here' who plays against type, I would think he will stand out like a sore thumb. However, there is plenty of time for Paul to display his true values and depth of character, he obviously got where he is for a reason, and I can accept that at this point. I don't have much issue with the change of tone - maybe I'm tone deaf - but I'm not sure how gritty the first chapter was, that's not an impression I took away. Like the others, I'm keen to read more. I think it's too early to make conclusions about the whole story (not saying anyone has done that), but I think there are some points of caution to be aware of. Kudos to Endurant for reading on despite his concerns. If you do decide to pull it after 5 chapters, maybe we could have the hole thing up on Alpha Readers thread so this inclined to read on could do so? --------------------------------------------------------- Page 1 – two ‘very’s close together. Page 1 – ‘Furrowing her brow...’ sounds awkward to me. Page 2 – Not sure I understand the tassels on invisible strings allusion. Page 4 – I like the elevator man, he comes across well, but I'm stuck a wee bit on the image of him. Was he a hippie first time around? I have it in my mind he wasn’t. His tone and smart uniform seem at odds with his hippie-dom. Page 7 – There was chat before, as I recall, about the length of time it takes Candace to realise where she is. If it really was a dream, I think I could accept her not tagging it sooner, but I think it’s strange that she has not reached that conclusion (albeit disbelievingly), or is not at least considering the possibility (incredulously, no doubt) by the point at which she sees the grail and the shroud. Page 8 – How does she know it’s 12.5 feet square? Six feet is a height benchmark for humans, so a person could estimate 10 to 12 feet easily enough, but why the half? Page 8 – I like Paul’s character. I'm a rock fan, so all the reference work well for me – John Bonham’s signature is a nice touch that might send some youngsters off to Google to investigate Zeppelin, which is no bad thing! I find myself wondering at certain points in this section if the rock thing and the disorder is laid on a bit thick in place. Also, I found that I had forgotten that the music was playing by the time he says he’ll turn it down. I also found myself thinking that Paul’s rock stylings almost seem more suited to the hippie elevator attendant. Page 9 – I really don’t like ‘err’. I think the ellipsis serves as the ‘err’ or ‘hmm’ or whatever. Page 9 – Quibble aside, this exchange really works for me. I like the dialogue and the pace of Paul’s delivery. Page 10 – ‘Where am I?’ – I’ll restate it – I know she’s disoriented, but from some of her dialogue up to this point, she’s clearly not stunned, therefore I'm not convinced by her not a least starting to consider the outlandish possibility that she’s in heaven, even if it’s just dream heaven. Page 10 – Still liking Paul – his ‘I know you’ ‘speech’ works well for me. Page 13 – I'm sure it’s down to me being a heathen, but I'm not quite sure what else Candace would call Peter, I think you might mean ‘Saint’?

I like your thinking about seeing how it goes (suck-it-and-see, as we say in these parts). Intrigued to read about the "greatest discover of the century"!! Some big themes going on there. In addition to trying to incorporate Brandon's sound advice through the WaD course, I'm also trying to build in some writing prompts that I've been stacking up from previous Writing Excuses casts. This afternoon I ticked off Season 5, Episode 22 - "Come up with an eight-word tagline for your novel or short story. It needs to be pithy, punchy, memorable and easily comprehensible.". My response: "The greatest threat to success is their friends."

I reckon we are 8 now - you gonna split us into 2 x 4? Or not, no pressure either way. I've watched the intro (cheater!!) and Brandon talks about them submitting 1,000 words, or maybe 2,000. I think you said 1,000 for us, doesn't sound like a lot for critiquing - 7 x 2,000 is only 3 Reading Excuses critiques (at up to 5,000). As to progress, I now got 11 pages of notes - I was a discovery writer for many, many years until last NaNo when I tried outlining and couldn't stop writing notes. It seems to have stuck. I still have loads of scope, all I've written are character portraits, setting, magic, plot concept and plot outline (skeleton), so still plenty of room for me to discover things as I go!

@DarkEyes: David Gemmell - I'd start with Waylander or Legend. These are very, very readable books, page-turners you would probably call them. Excellent characterisation, but strong on setting too, with a world that feels very natural, as if he's writing history. Some Fantasy can feel mechanical, like a checklist of elements, but Gemmell's books don't beat you over the head with world-building, they are a breath of fresh air. I wish I hadn't read them all!!

@Sunshine: Nice ideas - how the heck do you write benevolent crime lords?! Could be a Robin Hood angle, I suppose. Very interesting. T minus 5 days, people!!!

'Seeds' is back!! Yay!!! This WAD thing just gets better and better. Origon and Rilan - the early years - brilliant. @Endurant: When I say types, I'm possibly thinking more of RPG stereotypes of character classes. I don't want to say too much, as I want to assess the impact on you, my willing test subjects (Muah, ha, ha.). But I'm trying to take character roles and bring something unexpected to them. As one example, I'm thinking of a mage whose ability is questionable. As I type this, I realise that thought might have come (subconsciously) from 'A Memory of Light'. You might also point to Pratchett's Rincewind - but this is not a comedy - although hopefully there will be a lightness of tone in places. I'm fine with Google Docs. I'll probably go the other way and write in Docs and paste into Word - each to their own.

Of course, once you've collected enough tangents, you're back where you started... I'll give Dark Room another go - I was playing from my own risk-averse mindset, as opposed to in my alter ego, Buck Dangerquest.

I like that your story seems to revolve around personal relationships and choices, which have far-ranging consequences. It appears that your story will not be about the end of the world - which is nice - as it does crop up rather often as a theme. I currently have 5 pages of premise; character outlines (4); setting and plot outline. My story is a fantasy, I have the bones of a magic system which is as much a philosophy as it is a system. I'm trying to cast my story against type, taking stereotypes like 'tank', swordsman, thief and mage, and giving them what I hope is a somewhat original twist - fingers crossed!

I enjoyed the tension between Paul and Bryth, I thought that was well handled, the man’s casual disrespect for his commanding officer (I presume), and Paul keeping his frustration inside so as not to weaken his command or affect the dynamic in the group with a confrontation. I like that the ambush ended in the surrender of the Axians, that felt like a realistic outcome, although I don’t know anything (at that point) about the relative strengths of the sides, or the tactical situation. I found a bit hard to accept that Bryth would show open disrespect to his commander in front of the men –and I include in that his lack of acknowledgment of Paul’s question on Page 5. He must know how important discipline in the ranks is. There are some redundant words in there that could be left out to improve the flow and keep the pace of the action. I’ve highlighted a few instances in the detail comments below. Overall, I enjoyed this prologue / introduction (?), and I would be interested to read more, in particular to find out the nature of the conflict with the Axians. The combination of swords and firearms is intriguing, so the technological position is also of interest. --------------------------------------------------------- Looking at the other comments, unusually, I didn’t have a problem with the lack of visual cues. I had an image of a forested location in my head, which did raise the issue I noted with the sunset. Otherwise, I did not have an issue with the lack of description of the characters. I think I formed a picture of Paul as a nondescript young man and Bryth as a bearded forty-something, maybe early fifties – kind of blank defaults, no doubt. The problem then arises if you have them looking different, and describe them later, when I have already formed my impression. I would say there were multiple firearms, there’s mention of the Axians firing into the trees – or do you mean that they were firing bows? Like Andy, I was puzzled by the guns not playing any real part in the action when they are so superior to swords, and I’ve noted how they seem to be neglected later on. I'm ‘guilty’ of sometimes using the same sentence structure, which Mandamon highlights, and I must say I think it’s okay. To me has a flow, one action follows another. I use it sometimes because it think it increases the pace, not giving the reader the chance to reset with a new sentence. Just started ‘A Dark Room’ this very minute – that’s a real throw back! Interesting, but I want it to move faster, I want to talk to the stranger, and I am certainly not going out in the forest – I don’t know if I have a weapon or not. --------------------------------------------------------- Page 1 – ‘He nodded wordlessly to Jecob, who nodded back and then…’ Page 1 – ‘He yanked his pistol from it’s (its) holster on his side, shooting…’ - (It doesn’t matter where the holster is, does it?) Page 2 – ‘...but bit his lips.’ Think you can only bight one lip at a time? Page 2 – ‘He thought posting archers in the woods was stupid.’ – I wondered about Bryth thinking Paul’s tactics were ‘stupid’. I’m taken out of the story a little thinking that Bryth might have said ‘stupid’ to Paul, or is that Paul’s characterisation, did Bryth in fact say that he thought it was a ‘mistake’. Even if he said ‘stupid’, I just thought that Paul might be more likely to think of his own decision in terms of ‘mistake’ rather than ‘stupid’. Page 3 – ‘...spears held in front of themselves.’ Page 3 – ‘...began to set down their axes and spears.’ – What about the guns? There is reference to the Axians firing into the woods, which I presumed meant that they had guns. I think that could be clearer. Page 4 – ‘...the distant sun, setting low in the east.’ – I'm picturing the action on a road in enclosed woodland – can Paul see the setting sun? Page 4 – It’s good to hear their discussion about the tactical decision, but I'm assuming that Bryth accepted Paul’s orders beforehand without taking him aside to discuss their tactics for the ambush. Page 5 – ‘...captain who’s whose face…’ Page 5 – ‘How many of them are still alive?’ – Paul’s question seems to be ignored, it certainly isn’t acknowledged. Bryth comes across as a competent military man of some experience. I find a bit hard to accept that he would show open disrespect to his commander in front of the men – he must know how important discipline in the ranks is.

I've just had a wee dabble with G**gle Docs, looks pretty straight forward, I'm happy to go with this for our writing class. Got a G**gle account for my blog anyway, so it's only a short step. Man, I'm really broadening my mind this month!

I've never used Google Docs, but I do a lot of work with MS Word, which obviously can track changes from numerous contributors. If each writer had a folder in Dropbox and there was a new version of the document each week which could be tracked, these could all be merged in a master document. Don't know if everyone using Word of course. What do you need to use Google Docs? I'll need to look into it if we're going down that route. Also, I found this page useful, http://www.writeaboutdragons.com/brandon_w2012/

Just been on the site and the course looks excellent, really looking forward to it now. Do we need a login, or is that jhust for critiquing, which we'll be doing through RE?

The donut thing is not a good long term strategy of course, but every now and then... (I miss Tim Horton's). Totally understand you parking it of course, I've done the same with my current project. Yes, I'm from sunny Glasgow. We have 'onto me' (which I think of as a British expression), and 'into me' (via the US), but for some reason I didn't read the line that way. I think I linked it with the previous line 'hitting on me', like 'he's hitting onto me' - which makes no sense, of course! Just me being slow and not taking the time for work it out. Also, watching GoT is NEVER stupid :-)

Going into this re-read, I don’t remember a great deal of the detail on my issues with the chapter first time around. I remember the outline of events, and the tone of my reactions to certain things (yes, Seth, in the main), but I haven’t re-read my earlier comments, or anyone else’s, so hopefully my perspective is as fresh as it can be. The others make a lot of good points, most of which I would go along with. I think you’re getting a grip on Seth’s character, maybe still some work to do, but improved from the original certainly. I like that you’ve ‘hung a lantern’ on it with Candace’s reaction. I’ll do a deal with you – I would happily re-read Chapters 2 and 3 – but I’d like to see 4, 5 and 6 (etc.) as well. Have you got them, will you write them? Also, I like that you go for a bike ride before an edit – I have a cup of tea and a donut..., metaphorically speaking, but also an actual donut sometimes. --------------------------------------------------------- Page 1 – for ‘dim’ profile, I'm thinking ‘sketchy’. Page 3 – I'm wondering how Candace can see the tattoo if it’s distant from her and she’s sitting, but I guess she saw it when she came in. I get a vague sense of repetition in the argument (finger on the table, fist on the table, muscled cop, muscled husband). These aren’t big issues, I'm happier with the dynamic so far now that there are two cops and more action. I'm hoping it won’t get too ‘crowded’. Page 4 – Ha-ha, I like ‘cloud of dysfunction’. Page 5 – I like the thread of humour running through – it feels to me like you’ve played it up a little more, but maybe it’s just the couple giving a new foil Candace’s attention. But why does she feel the need to leave, if anything the husband is deflecting attention from her? I'm not keen on Seth’s description of his job as ‘making sure everyone’s alright’; it’s not very technical or sophisticated – what about ‘keeping the peace’? Page 6 – As advocate appearing on behalf of Old Nick, I wonder if t-shirt man has actually violated the statute, my impression was that he didn’t touch Seth before the officer engaged him. Page 7 – Maybe I'm more like the Quibbler today, but if everyone else is clapping, I'm asking myself if Candace isn’t actually standing out more by keeping her head down. After consideration, probably not, I can picture some others not clapping. Page 8 – repetition of 'officer'. It always strikes me that all of Candace's stress could be solved if she got her coffee to go. She knows it's a risk. She knows there could be cops. It just seems like such a big thing in her mind for such a small thing – why does she put herself through it? Page 12 – ‘It seemed unlikely that an officer would try to take her on his own.’ She has just seen his considerable skills, why would he not think he could take her on his own? I like the way you've 'hung a lantern' on Seth's corny pick-up lines through Candace's reaction. Page 14 – Took his hand, rather than ‘took his own’, I think. I presume Seth got two coffees because the second one was for his partner, who I guess isn't coming back. Page 15 – When Candace is sizing up a way to attack Seth, she has forgotten his handling of Triumph guy. I don't buy that, it was too recent. Page 17 – '... pulling up on the yoke before insane schemes crashed into the prison courtyard.' - I don't understand his phrase. Page 18 – When Seth calls her 'fallen angel' it occurred to me that his corny dialogue can work (within reason) and that it's all in the delivery. I presume the Brietling is foreshadowing the fact that there is something more going on with him. But he won't 'literally' be counting the seconds. Page 19 – What does 'Not onto me. Into me.' mean, does it refer to hitting? I thought that was 'on', not 'onto'.

That was very interesting. The nice thing about a fair bit of the advice is that it's clear when you hear it, but not necessarily something you would see yourself. Thanks so much for posting. Now, someone send me a story!!!

This does sound interesting, I feel like I'm stretched pretty thin at the moment, but I'd love to try it. I'm getting a fair bit of BS (Brandon, that is!) at the moment in my Writing Excuses catch up, but I could suspend that, I suppose. Put me down as a tentative 'yes' and I'll consider what I would write.

Yes, thank you, I'm on hols for two weeks and having a great time by the sea. My plan ('cause there always has to be a plan) is to finish a short I'm working on (snagged), so I can get back to last year's NaNoWriMo, and finish in time for this year's NaNo (planned to be the sequal). How's that going?, I hear you ask - well, so far I have written eleven film reviews, some on my blog (http://robinski-ville.blogspot.co.uk), all on IMDB and Amazon, been to the cinema twice and progressed into Season 7 of Writing Excuses as part of my 'Great Catch-up' campaign - in other words, NOT WELL!! Going to be editing my short, The NEU Oblivion, at the beach today though, so everything is awesome - hope you guys are having a good summer too - or just generally succeeding for those of you with nose to grindstone and not on holiday.

Actually, I have a pretty awful memory, however I compensate for it in cunning and unexpected ways, like going back a checking stuff : o) This is how I maintain the imporession of my powerful memory superpower to the outside world, while actually relying heavily on the less glamourous special abilities of checking and research. ...that, and you mentioned his name in the first post on this thread.

Yes, I'll read it again - maybe this time I won't want to punch Seth in the face ; o ) (Even though he'd pound me to a pulp...)