Kadrok

What makes you so sure Rashek didn't use Lerasium to gain Allomancy? I'm not convinced using the Well just gives you Allomancy. For me the breakdown is: 1 Rashek 9 "First" Allomancers 1 Hoid 1 Elend 4 My MAG team But in all seriousness I am of the view that the Lerasium beads are not a static thing, that they form gradually over time like Atium, probably capping out at 16 beads by the end of 1024 years. (Note: I'm not the originator of this idea, but I have no idea who on these boards first espoused it...)

What an intriguing notion! Upvote! Perhaps Vin intuitively detected the absence of Preservation and Ruin in Hoid, or more accurately the fullness of Preservation and Ruin as a whole with the other unbroken Shards.

Well, for example... the Feruchemical properties of Lerasium.

How about... Breeze versus Bluefingers? Social Mastermind battle! Yeah, we'd need to clarify a lot of the backgrounds details, but let's not restrict ourselves to physical combat here!

I wouldn't be surprised if he was already an Allomancer, and thus didn't need the bead.

Well we know he's getting rid of the extra bit of Ruin somehow (the imbalance between the shards because of Preservation putting more of himself into creating humans), though someone has suggested he used the excess Ruin making Koloss a real species... I don't know. Maybe he's giving the extra Ruin, in Atium form, to Demoux every Christmas.

Yep. I am familiar with that one, and as I think you observed (if you didn't.. have an observation!) they wouldn't necessarily know the Atium isn't coming back without intervention. I wonder what Demoux is running on, as I'm sure others do. Marsh had the Santa sack, did Demoux pick up a supply?

But Brandon does say "You are on the right track" when the asker connects the attempts to breed a Mistborn with the possibility of Atium's return. Interview: Sep, 2012 Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim) DouglasIn Alloy of Law, evidence is uncovered that the bad guys are attempting to breed a Mistborn. The time span of the gap between this and the original Mistborn trilogy, perhaps with the interval I vaguely remember being stated for between Alloy and the next main trilogy added, is suspiciously close to 300 years. Does the organization Wax's father is part of know the location of the Pits of Hathsin, or otherwise have access to Atium, either now (as of Alloy) or in the time period of the planned second trilogy? Brandon SandersonYou are on the right track (Sorry to repost this quote, I really should remove the spoiler box from my previous post so it's more visible.) This quote also seems pertinent... Interview: May, 2010 Ancient 17th Shard Question and Answer (Paraphrased) ChaosDoes atium have a "side effect", much like how lerasium has a "side effect" in creating Mistborn? Brandon SandersonRAFO I knew something about Atium having more than one effect was out there somewhere.

Is burning Atium the key to Scadrian worldhopping? (I give my reasons for this suspicion/position here and here.)

Ferrings feel an affinity to their metal, which is how they discover they are Ferrings (Currently searching for the WoB on this... it's out there somewhere). So I would say that's how they discover it. As for storing, they can pay a Nicroburst to give them a burst and then store that (though whether this can be done without any Allomantic ability... is debatable). They could also drain other sitting sources of investiture, for example it is possible to siphon off energy from the Well of Ascension, so if they found a body of power similar to that they also could. But who says it has to be useful being a Soulbearer Ferring? Afterall, I'm sure the Duralumin Misting doesn't exactly feel useful. That said, I'm convinced that a Twinborn with Nicrosil as their Ferring metal could store the investiture flow from their Allomancy, burning their metal but gaining no or limited benefit in order to fill their Nicrosilmind. I suspect they could also tap to fuel their burning, keeping their metal running longer.

From what the MAG says, the investiture stored in a Nicrosilmind is "blank" and needs to be shaped in order to be useful. Mechanically speaking this means tapping it alongside something else (like Pewter) to tell the power what to do. This is comparable, I suppose, to the way compounding works... you burn a metal allomantically and that provides access to the power of creation in a specific way. If the metal is Feruchemically charged it rewrites the "instruction", "telling" a different power to come. So, two things: a) there are different forms of the energy that let you do different things because the systems of investiture are "the power of creation in mortal form", that is a simplified version of the power shards use. I suspect that not even shards use the same undifferentiated power since there seems to be different things you can do with a shards power i.e. Preservation's power couldn't be used to kill Kwaan like Rashek wanted it to, but I imagine Ruin's could. b ) someone who could compound Nicrosil could make a tonne of "blank" investiture, but if the MAG is anything to go by they'd need an equal or greater chunk of "flavoured" investiture for it to be useful... Nicrosil enhances, it doesn't replace. I should probably elaborate. Creating Nicrosil-charges Feruchemically seems to make it undifferentiated... you make it from other stored traits (mostly weight and heat if you're clever) or some other source of power you have access to (you could drain the mists if you could draw on them like Vin can, or store a Nicroburst) and convert it to an undifferentiated power source stored in a Nicrosilmind. When tapping it, as I mentioned, you need to tap it with something else to make it work. The only exception to this is... you can channel the blank power in large amounts into someone else's metalmind, destroying their stored charges. As it happens I have some Brandon quotes to back up my claims that I stole from some of Phantom's posts (useful fellow that). I'll put them in a spoiler box because they're chunky. Thoughts?

Could you imagine... "Bureaucracy", the middle management shard? The focus of the magic system would be filling out forms...

Honestly I am convinced that Hoid is a full Feruchemist, so this is unsurprising to me. A good piece of evidence to confirm my position though, as Kurk notes. As for the mechanical way of using the metallic arts, I wonder if it is more or less effective than the Northern way...

And this is the part where I refer you to one of Shardlet's theories I personally believe: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3473-shardworld-dna-blueprint-based-on-yolen-dna/?hl=%2Byolen+%2Bblueprint Basically the thread of it is that Hoid is from Yolen, and is of the human stock that existed before Adonalsium was shattered. Rather than being of just Ruin and Preservation (like the Scadrians), these humans are presumably of all the Shards (as their original whole). Thus, Hoid has potential access to all manifestations of investiture because he has the seeds of all of them within him, just as the Southern Scadrians have the seeds of all the metallic arts in them, even without ancestors who burned lerasium. I assume that Hoid has found a way to wake up his Feruchemical potential. As I recall I speculate in that thread that it is possible Hoid's Feruchemy doesn't use metal as a focus, given the whole metal thing is presumably a result of the interplay between Ruin, Preservation and Scadrial. I now think that is unlikely given that preshattering systems are meant to be limited. I think it's more likely that Feruchemy came about on Scadrial and Hoid worked out how to awaken his potential in it while visiting Scadrial, back around the time the Worldbringers were a big deal (there are other theories that connect Hoid to the founding of the worldbringers, but I've rambled enough about this already). Short answer: Hoid probably has Feruchemy because he both has the master sDNA of the humans (presumably) created by the unshattered Adonalsium, and has worked out how to draw Feruchemy out of that potential by examining the manifestation of Feruchemy on classical Scadrial.

We know that anyone can burn Lerasium and its alloys (which covers metals as you observed), and I would say the "free access" is something unique and distinct about Lerasium. We have no reason to believe that Atium alloys would be burnable by mistings of the alloyed metal, in fact it would be awfully strange if they could; there seems to be nothing about the system that would permit this since the alloy is a distinct metal, and doesn't have any source of the "free access" trait since neither contributing metal has Lerasium's "free access" trait.

Upvote. Thankyou kindly, I knew it was somewhere... I guess I need to fix Phantom's pokeball

To be honest I find the system frustrating for two reasons: 1) If I see something I like, my instinct is to up vote it, but I'll post something (I'm specifically not talking about something recent) and people will discuss it at length and even comment that it is a novel or brilliant idea, and I'll of course be very flattered by all of this... but I'll watch the post's reputation number sit at a frustrating "0" forever! It does my head in a little, and makes me wonder if there is something detestable about my writing style which causes ideas that would otherwise warrant an up vote to merely cancel out whatever horrible quirk I'm not aware of* (is there such a thing as smelling bad textually?). 2) It makes me anxious. I'm sitting on 24 or so at the moment, and I've made far more than 24 posts... therefore all it would take is for someone who has it in for me to search for all of my posts and down vote them all for me to drop down to Nega-spren or whatever. I realise that there are probably systems in place to prevent that kind of thing, but still... it kind of scares me. I don't want to irritate anyone with this, it is my understanding that people calling for the removal of the system is one of the frustrations of those running this site and I certainly don't want to be a bother. This just seemed like a neat topic for me to vent these anxieties in.

Thankyou kindly...I've updated my post. Now... if we're going to go in this direction, everyone should know that this discussion WILL CONTAIN ALLOY OF LAW SPOILERS. What are your thoughts on my new theory, Shardlet?

BRAINWAVE!!! SPOILERS FOR AoL!!!! The villains of AoL are totally trying to breed a Worldhopper. Let's break this down... If what I have supposed about Atium is true then this quote takes on new meaning: Douglas In Alloy of Law, evidence is uncovered that the bad guys are attempting to breed a Mistborn. The time span of the gap between this and the original Mistborn trilogy, perhaps with the interval I vaguely remember being stated for between Alloy and the next main trilogy added, is suspiciously close to 300 years. Does the organization Wax's father is part of know the location of the Pits of Hathsin, or otherwise have access to Atium, either now (as of Alloy) or in the time period of the planned second trilogy? Brandon Sanderson You are on the right track IF they are trying to breed a Mistborn for the purpose of producing an Atium burner (as this quote suggests), then perhaps they are somehow Cosmere aware and are essentially trying to breed a Worldhopper! And what does this say about Miles's "men of red and gold"? "You are fools! One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them." Are they the Southerners as some have supposed or some non-Scadrian threat for which they are breeding a Worldhopper to oppose? Is Atium the final metal as I'm sure others have speculated? If that is the case, are the men of Red and Gold in on the Worldhopper breeding program? Gah! I have so many questions now!

You walk out of a room and throw the door closed, but it doesn't catch and starts to open again behind you. No matter! Lurch it closed again without breaking a stride!

My impression was that every Shardworld had a way of accessing Shadesmar, not necessarily every system of investiture. Given how Preservation and Ruin are so intertwined, I wouldn't be surprised if they had only one way between them... burning Atium (Ruin) with Allomancy (Preservation). Quote time: [’Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson’ said />QUESTION You've said that Shadesmar is the cognitive realm connecting all the worlds in the cosmere, and that Hoid is very good at using Shadesmar. Should we take this to mean Shadesmar is how he travels between the worlds? Do the other worlds have different ways of accessing Shadesmar than the way(s) the people of Roshar use? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=585#8] Obviously this quote doesn't say that not every shard's system of investiture has Shadesmar access, so it could be entirely possible that every system has a way of accessing Shadesmar. But Brandon doesn't actually say (in this quote) that every system has a way, merely that every world has a way. This does fit with the awkwardness of imagining how someone would worldhop with certain systems. Who knows, it may be that some systems can't do it and those that can do it, do it with varying degrees of ease (the implication of this is that, while every shardworld can access Shadesmar, that wasn't necessarily a given from the outset). Perhaps part of the problem with Worldhopping on Sel is to do with the Realmatic interactions of Sel's systems of investiture... Does anyone have a stronger quote, perhaps one that outright contradicts this speculation? EDIT: Let me clarify. I'm not saying that not every Shards power could be used to worldhop, simply that the way the systems of investiture are arranged... that is, the ways the power can be accessed in mortal form... vary, and one of these variances may be that some systems have a way of accessing Shadesmar (or worldhopping via some other means) and some don't. The Shardholder could probably do it, if Shards can worldhop, given they have unrestricted access to the potential manifestations of the power, but for humans those possible manifestations are limited. Preservation can move planets using the power of creation, Allomancers using the mortal manifestation of that same power can only move metals, and only relative to their own position, and only relative to their own weight.

Thank you all for your comments. I did intend this thread to address more than Scadrian worldhopping so if anyone else feels the need to pipe in with how Biochromatic Breath can be used to worldhop, or whatever, go right ahead!

This theory addresses the way Preservation set up the shard pools (the Well and the Pits) and the way they distribute Lerasium and Atium. My presuppositions are that Atium is the key to Worldhopping and that the Lerasium beads in the Well chamber were generated by the well in a similar fashion to the Atium beads in the pits. I discuss these presuppositions more in this thread. Basically this all came out of my reasoning about how Atium is the key to Worldhopping on Scadrial, so I'm just going to quote myself here. I figured I'd separate this out in case anyone wanted to discuss this idea without taking my other thread off course. Here are some key points: And here is the really important bit: What do people think? I mean, I know that Leras had his master plan and all, but could this have been a motivating factor for Leras in setting up Classical Scadrial if the original function of the well was to set up a protector of Humanity? Especially considering that accessing other worlds would have given them a perspective on their own world, one which could have potentially undone Ati's history manipulation?

Because I couldn't find one already, I thought I should start a thread purposed around thinking about what the denizens of each Shardworld might use to Worldhop. So guys... hop to it! Scadrial I'll start. Worldhopping is bound to utilise a system of Investiture. There are three systems of investiture on Scadrial: Hemalurgy, Allomancy and Feruchemy. What system? Hemalurgy mostly doesn't introduce any new powers into the mix, it just rearranges properties that are already there, so I think we can safely rule it out. Feruchemy also tends to work with something that is already there, strength, health, whatever. It is hard to imagine what a Feruchemist would have to store to tap into worldhopping/shadesmar access, and furthermore it existed pre-ascension and was likely studied to some degree by the scholarly Worldbringers (there's bound to have been at least a couple who looked into how their powers worked). Granted, they may not have had access to all the metals. Mostly on the basis of Feruchemy's tendency not to introducing new powers as such, let's tentatively put it aside. Unlike Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, Allomancy has effects which go beyond the kinds of things humans can generally do. Tin and Pewter may just enhance what is already there like Feruchemy does, but the other basic metals introduce new abilities, such as manipulating emotions and the physical world, perceiving other possible worlds or the future and manipulating time. Given that I see accessing Shadesmar/Worldhopping as a new ability in this sense, rather than a manipulation of what is already there, I would suppose that Allomancy is the key to accessing Worldhopping/Shadesmar. What metal? Supposing I (and whoever else has thought of this before me) am correct, I would further think it is unlikely that one of the ordinary (16) metals has the hidden key to Shadesmar* which leaves us with Godmetals and their Alloys. Lerasium is tied into rewriting sDNA, and I imagine it's hidden functions have to do with granting other systems of investiture, so let's tentatively put it aside; likewise, its alloys make Mistings. That leaves us with Atium and its alloys (barring another Shard showing up and integrating itself into Scadrial, and gaining a Godmetal...) Here's where my speculation reaches its heights: from a narrative perspective, and in terms of how Malatium works as a basis of comparison, I don't think one of the random Atium alloys allows worldhopping... it just doesn't seem to fit in my mind. Granted, Atium alloys give a variety of Temporal and Mental effects, which certainly seems to fit with Shadesmar as the Cognitive realm... but one of the Atium alloys doesn't seem to fit nearly as well as... Atium itself. Atium as Scadrial's Worldhopping Key Let me go on the record and say I doubt that I thought of this first. In fact, I vaguely remember reading someone put forward Atium as the Scadrian Worldhopping key before. What I will do here, is discuss some of the pros of Atium being the Worldhopping key for Scadria:l Shadesmar is the Cognitive Realm and Shadesmar is seemingly the way Worldhopping happens. Of the two God metals Atium is the one tied into the Mental and Temporal aspects (with Lerasium offering Physical and Enhancement) and thus it seems to fit with Shadesmar. We know of a very clear Temporal effect of Atium: seeing the future. But a mental one is missing. "But wait, Atium also expands the mind!" I hear you say, but as Kurk has pointed our to me recently, ALL Allomancy has the effect of expanding your mind in order to use it. Atium's mind expansion is simply so a Seer can deal with the rush of information given by seeing the possible futures. If Atium's domain is Mental/Temporal, we have only seen the Temporal part, leaving the mental part neatly open for Shadesmar access. A random Atium alloy being the key would be narratively clunky (as discussed above) In a similar fashion to the above point, Atium being the key to accessing Shadesmar would be narratively neat, because it would balance Atium and Lerasium more. Lerasium is clearly a far more valuable metal as it stands because it makes you the most powerful Allomancer in the world. Atium's future sight is powerful (mostly only in combat) granted, but is far far more limited than Lerasium, and Atium's Hemalurgic prowess (as the master spike), while somewhat more balancing, still doesn't seem to quite even them out, especially if Lerasium can be attuned to allow access to other investitures (jury still out). Giving Atium this function thus not only fits with Atium's allomantic properties, but it increases its worth to more of a "God metal" level. To build on the above point, it also involves both Preservation and Ruin. If one of Atium's allomantic properties is allowing Worldhopping/Shadesmar Access, then that would mean the key to Worldhopping on Scadrial requires both Preservation (Allomancy) and Ruin (Atium). Note that under normal circumstances there are no Godmetal Mistings. This means that a Mistborn would normally be required for worldhopping. Also note that without Lerasium bleeding into the bloodlines, Mistborn aren't exactly going to crop up. Thus in some sense Lerasium and Atium are both needed for Worldhopping... Lerasium to enable Mistborn (for the next generations) and Atium to power the hopping. This makes for an interesting side theory: What if part of Preservation's set up of the Wells (which I believe generate the Lerasium beads in the same manner as the pits generate Atium, given that both seem to come with some kind of dirt casing... the Pottery and the Geode respectively) was to enable the Scadrian's to worldhop, perhaps to potentially escape or go for help if needed? This certainly seems to fit with how much Atium and Lerasium are generated by the shardpools... you don't nearly need as much Lerasium as Atium for worldhopping to work in the way I describe, and the proportions in which the pools generate their metal reflect this. It fits with a Worldhopping Demoux This are just my thoughts, feel free to discuss Scadrial Worldhopping access, or Worldhopping access for any other Shard-world! Footnote *Barring something awesome like discovering that proper mastery of Allomantic Gold lets you slip into Shadesmar... having the whole double minded split perspective thing seems very cognitive and otherworldly to me, just saying...

14 or so years ago I was young and in high school and decided I needed a screen name... something I could use for everything. Lord Kardok, an irrelevant boss in the game Medieval had a name with a nice ring to it, so I decided to steal it. I became Lord Kadrok because I clearly can't spell