Kadrok

Well I don't know about you, but I use my Titanium-minds to store sex-appeal.(Jokes. I use my Atium-Duralumin alloy to store sex-appeal)

Nicrosil. Though I wonder if Nicrosil Investiture is really unaltered? It seems to me that "power of creation" investiture can do a whole bunch of things, depending on what is used to draw it (the whole... power of creation in mortal form... the metal is only an access key to a specific power business which Phantom will likely quote now). Were-as from what I've read, Nicrosil Investiture is kind of just... blank power... unshaped, and only useful in conjunction with something else (at least, that's how the MAG styles it). Forgive me if I'm saying pretty much exactly what you're saying, I've been writing essays all night and my brain is pretty much mush at this point. EDIT: Reread my paragraph, it makes no sense, let me try again... the way MAG has it working... you can't just tap Nicrosil Investiture, you have to tap something else with it to "shape" it. So I wouldn't view it as unaltered because it is the equivalent of, say, Warmth (Brass) Investiture stripped of it's shape. Makes it a neat wildcard, but useless without something to shape it. I was trying to contrast it with "power of creation" investiture which I view as having the opposite issue... too many shapes, too many things it could do, so systems like Allomancy force it into particular shapes... it is shaped into just one function so mortals can handle it. Does that make any sense? POC-I needs to be shaped because it has too many options, and NICRO-I needs to be shaped because it doesn't have any on its own. Phantom, you're our quote archivist, what do you think?

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't thought of this before, but what do you guys think about the prospect of someone using tattoos as metalminds? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo_ink This wikipedia article lists the following Allomantic metals as tattoo ink in our world: cadmium (red, orange, yellow) chromium (green) aluminium (green, violet) copper (blue, green) iron (brown, red, black) Though from the look of it, I'm sure others are possible...

True, but I'd only need about 5 immortality spikes... maybe 10 to cover interesting people I will meet while being immortal... and besides... s/he is Endowment; I wouldn't be surprised if s/he is Intent-whipped by now and can't help but hand over (er, I mean endow victi...people with) splinters! You could breed Scadrians into the mix for efficiencies sake... one breath per baby, and the potential for a bunch of mistings just waiting to be spiked... I think we're bad people Kurk...

Very good point, and it is in favour of my speculation that a living person with a Divine Breath wouldn't need the weekly breath to eat. It is clear what we must do: learn to harvest Divine Breath hemalurgically and live forever!

I'm glad to see I can still ask thought provoking questions So between the four options I laid out at the beginning (I've modified number four slightly) it sounds like this is our breakdown: 1. Death (The subject cannot discontinue their use of Atium Feruchemy or they will die, regardless of their breath) Kadrok, Kurkistan 2. Immortal and impossibly aged (physically 1000 years old but alive because of the breath... Aginor style for WoT fans) king of nowhere 3. Immortal and fixed at Atium adjusted age skaa 4. Immortal and in the prime of life (Or whatever age the subject feels they are) Phantom Monstrosity Have I missed anyone? I'm inclined myself towards death, and it's Kurkistan's argument which has brought me to this point: Rashek is at an age where he should be dead, and it is only through a constant setting of his age earlier that he still lives. As you have said, Breath isn't going to magically heal you from a sword in the gut, and I am inclined to think, like you seem to, that it wouldn't undo Rashek's 1000-odd years of aging. What happens to someone who can suddenly no longer age... but has already aged well beyond their lifespan? I think Rashek would die the moment he discontinued using Atium Feruchemy. So I've put myself under the death section.(My second choice would be four, with breath setting you to the age you feel... I imagine Rashek would be set to the age he has been for the last 1000 years... though this depends on whether the Returned's ages are a uniquely "super-breath" thing, or something possible for anyone at the fifth heightening, and as I am disinclined to believe this at present, I naturally favour death as the outcome... though it does make me wonder... could someone spike a Returned for their "super-breath"? And if so... would the recipient need to sustain the spiked breath with a breath every 8 days, or would the "super-breath" implanted into a living body not have this limitation? What I'm essentially considering here is the idea that perhaps the Returned require a breath every week because their "super-breath" is keeping a dead body alive, and if the same breath was present in an already living body it wouldn't have this limitation. Pure speculation of course, please forgive my tangent). EDIT: Kurkistan moved to 'Death'

I have a question for you all. Suppose a Worldhopper traded the Lord Ruler enough Biochromatic-breath to reach the Fifth heightening, in exchange for some Lerasium (or whatever... the nature of the trade is not important). Sidestepping any issues some of you may have with whether it would work for the Lord Ruler, and just assume that if it isn't a simple matter of giving the breath to the Lord Ruler, that the Worldhopper and Rashek work it out between them how to make it work using Hemalurgy (or whatever... once again, this isn't important. The important bit is that the Lord Ruler reaches the Fifth heightening). The crux of the matter is this: if someone who has lived long beyond his natural lifespan through Atium compounding, and who depends on continually tapping an Atium-mind to remain alive, were to receive the Fifth Heightening (Agelessness, Immortality and so forth), would they be able to stop tapping youth? If they discontinued tapping their Atium-mind, would they die, or would the Biochromatic-breath be sufficient to sustain them? And if it is sufficient to sustain them, would they be immortal, but impossibly aged, or would they remain at whatever age they had tapped to, or would they be fixed in the prime of life? Thoughts?

Can I also have a cookie? http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3658-i-just-want-a-welcome-cookie-from-kchan/

Hi all! I joined a while ago and didn't bother to introduce myself. However, it has recently come to my attention that there are WELCOME COOKIES available when you introduce yourself, so here we go! I suppose I should say things about myself: A friend got me into Mistborn Trilogy... I liked it, but found some of the twists frustrating, especially as they were things I'd predicted for earlier books. I can't be more specific without ruining it for people. (Though obviously as I'm here I enjoyed the books...) I love the systematic nature of the metallic arts, though I find it irritating that full-Feruchemy and full-Allomancy have converged so infrequently... honestly those systems seem made for each other! Allomantic-Steel and Iron, and Feruchemical Iron as a trio seem particularly like they were meant to be together... what I'm saying is, if someone offered me the choice between personally having every system in the Cosmere (including possession of both a Shard-blade and a Shard-plate, and other object based investiture systems) except the Scadrian ones (and it was imposed that I could never gain use of the Scadrian ones, no matter what) or having both full-Feruchemy and full-Allomancy, I would probably go with the latter option. It helps that I'm presently obsessed with the MAG. I've also read Warbreaker, and I think Brandon really improved as a writer, so I look forward to being able to afford to get his other books (though I've read a fair bit about the wider Cosmere... I couldn't resist)

Phantom, if I could give you 5 up-votes for each of those posts, I would. I had an argument with someone on the Crafty Games forum about this very matter... he would claim that Allomancy would need Preservation/Harmony to be present on the other world to work, or at least a splinter of it, I would counter that the P/H WAS present on the world in the form of the Allomancer, as all Allomancers (like all Scadrians) contain a bit of Preservation in them... anyway, I've added the references you've made to my personal collection, so thankyou.

I feel like we keep coming back to... don't go into combat at all... stand behind a solid wall, pull everything... rest of the team pounds the disarmed team... bring a good book.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Kill it with fire!

I'd stand behind a solid wall and just pull everything towards me while my metal-less team pounds the bandit/s. Yeah it's a bit boring, but I get to read a book or two while my team cleans up the disarmed foes. EDIT: Whoops, sorry. Didn't mean to dig up an old thread.

Lol, it's nice when things are straightforward...

I'm pretty sure I just quoted where you probably read that. Also... my now the tables have turned! I'm you, and you're me! The knowledge of the Steel Inquisition during the Final Empire was that it was the Temporal Spike only. MAG has it as the Allomancy Master-Spike. Another option (one which solves the problem of assigning properties to all the Atium alloys) is that Atium is the master-master-spike, and two of its allows steal Allomancy and Feruchemy (that is, the Allomancy master-spike is an atium alloy, as is the Feruchemy master-spike). However I think I have given sufficient reason to at least consider the possibility that Atium isn't the master-master-spike everyone thinks it is, and that the true master-master-spike is the Atium-Lerasium alloy.

I was kind of hoping you'd bust out that quote where Brandon says they use their spikes as metalminds since you're Captain Quote-a-zor. Now I'll have to go looking for it myself... *grumble* *grumble*

And we shall continue this discussion in the topic linked, for anyone interested.

Let's break this down: "That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically. Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers." Do you see that? He's talking about Allomantic Temporal powers... he then says it can be used to steal ANY of THE powers... any of which powers, the Allomantic ones, or the powers overall? This fits with the conversation being about Allomancy. "Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well." Granted, that is compelling. But using an alloy of Atium is still using Atium in a sense... the "right knowledge" could very well mean not just spike placement but alloying Atium correctly. I'll admit this isn't an ironclad argument, but nerfing Atium spikes to not steal Feruchemy hardly seems like a change that would improve the game, especially in the absence of an in-game "Feruchemy Masterspike". It's such an obscure nitpicky thing to be deliberately done, and add the fact that they have changed it before to bring it more in line with the books (as evidenced by the discrepancy between my and Phantom's versions of the MAG), it seems odd to have deliberately changed it to be inconsistent with the books without any conceivable gain game-play or story wise, especially considering how comprehensive the MAG is in every other area (for example, including rules for Feruchemical Nicrosil, and other poorly understood metals, some of which are pretty much unavailable until the Alloy of Law era). Yes. To be honest, I suspect Gold will wind up being the canonical one. Otherwise Pewter steals 8 different powers, which seems odd. And if they aren't spiked with Gold, how can the Inquisitors use their spikes as metalminds (given they are usually only spikes for Feru-Gold)? Furthermore that is a big divergence, and if they were going to diverge that much from the canon, why not just switch the Feruchemical effects of Brass and Electrum back so they make sense?

Yep. And given what I said above I am inclined to think mine is the later version.

Page number please? Is that 374? Is yours an earlier version? Because mine marks it as a universal spike for Allomancy. How does it get Inquisitor spikes wrong? I heard that they changed something about the way Inquisitor spikes are done in the MAG at some point to bring them in line with the books, so perhaps the discrepancy is due to yours being an earlier version of the MAG.

Imagine my joy as, reading the Treatise Metallurgic (the section of the MAG detailing metals) some time ago, I discovered that Atium formed a kind of master-spike, one which could steal any power without degradation for the low low cost of an extra spirit point. I could use this to steal ANYTHING!!! Imagine my horror as, rereading the Treatise Metallurgic for the billionth time, I discovered that Atium only worked for Allomantic powers... "Depending on where the spike is driven in, it steals, stores, and transfers a single Allomantic Power — that of Atium or any other metal" (MAG 374). ... how disappointing. I suppose it makes sense. Atium is of Ruin, Preservation's opposite, and so to have the substance of his body by a focus for his enemy fits (if it must have limitations). To me this raises the question: What about Feruchemy? Hemalurgy can theoritically be used to steal any manifestation of investiture as BS has often hinted, but we know for a fact that it can steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, so let's just roll with that for now - there's a master-spike for Allomancy, surely there's one for Feruchemy. Perhaps arbitrarily, given we know only 2 alloys for Atium, I would suggest that Malatium is that master-spike. This seems to make some sense, as Gold on it's own (the metal Atium is alloyed with to make Malatium) is the Hemalurgic spike for the Hybrid Feruchemical powers, and it's not difficult to imagine that Atium, carrying the master-spike trait, could merge with Gold, carrying the Feruchemical state, to make a Feruchemical master-spike. Indeed, Hybrid Feruchemy is a match for the grouping Allomancers call Temporal... Atium is kind of Temporal/Mental to match Lerasium being kind of Physical/Enhancement... I can see the "temporal feruchemy" Hemalurgic spike being combined with the Hemalurgic master metal to create the Feruchemy master-spike. Another point in favour of this is that Marsh was spiked for Feruchemical Atium... it would seem odd Ruin pulling out a whole new metal we hadn't seen before to accomplish this. Malatium being the Feruchemical Masterspike fits this well narratively. The other alloy for Atium, a fusion between Lerasium and Atium suggested in the Lerasium section of the MAG, would seem to make more sense given that feruchemy is the power of balance between Preservation and Ruin, but I am disinclined to suggest it as the Feruchemical master-spike, as I suspect that a spike composed of an alloy of two god metals would do something a tad more powerful than merely act as a wild-card for spiking one magic system. Indeed, perhaps a Lerasium/Atium alloy could function as a Master master-spike, allowing for any power to be stolen. This is of course, like the rest of this post, speculation. There is on flaw to all this I can think of: if Malatium is the Feruchemical master-spike, why is it not mentioned in the Treatise? Surely a tidbit like that couldn't spoil any significant plot developments.

I think you're correct in thinking that only a God-metal can steal a God-metal, though I should point out that Atium only steals Allomantic powers: "Depending on where the spike is driven in, it steals, stores, and transfers a single Allomantic Power — that of Atium or any other metal" (MAG 374). I suspect an Atium alloy is needed to steal Feruchemy... perhaps... Malatium? Although that is almost purely arbitrary as Malatium is the only Atium alloy we know, it makes some sense... Gold steals Hybrid Feruchemy (from the grouping Allomancers call Temporal)... Atium is kind of Temporal/Mental to match Lerasium being kind of Physical/Enhancement... I can see the "temporal feruchemy" Hemalurgic spike being combined with the Hemalurgic master metal to create the Feruchemy master-spike. And if the Allomantic master-spike (Atium) is anything to go by, only the Feruchemy master-spike can steal the ability to use God metals Feruchemically. *SPOILER* Another point in favour of this is that Marsh was spiked for Feruchemical Atium... it would seem odd Ruin pulling out a whole new metal we hadn't seen before to accomplish this. Malatium being the Feruchemical Masterspike fits this well narratively. There we go, let's have a whole topic on it: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3635-malatium-as-the-feruchemy-master-spike/

"an ability stored in an Atium spike never degrades, making this an ideal way to store stolen abilities over long periods of time" However, this quote is from the MAG, so if there is another source that says unequivocally that they do degrade, I suppose this is a simplification for gameplay reasons. Never-the-less "never degrades" and "ideal way to store stolen abilities over long periods of time" seems like strong language to me. *SPOILER* I can't find the link while I'm in class, but I was under the impression that Brandon suggested that Wax's earring was Allomantic Pewter charged, or else he hinted that this was correct in response to someone's question about it. I'm sure Phantom can find the link, if indeed it exists. This is why I framed my sentence with "From the top of my head..." and not "It has been clearly shown that..."

Lol. Lung-kidney. "Your breath smells like urine." A good analogy I suppse, though it doesn't seem quite as presise as that, given the possible double ups. From the top of my head you can spice both Allomantic Bronze and Allomantic Pewter into an earlobe (which honestly seems like the best place to install a spike to me... none of that frightening organ piercing business... and if you have Atium earrings, the charge doesn't degrade... perfect for looking stylish while granting/boosting the ability to wreck-faces or detect Investiture ripples).

Why? In that case I am picking a Lerasium/Iron Twinborn. I figure everyone else is either going to pick a nonbrilliant combination and hope for the best, or a Lerasium/Obscure-God-metal like you to maximise profit/chance of success, or else pick Lerasium/Odiummetal to troll you.