Kadrok

Brandon has said somewhere that there could be "magic-systems" (I didn't want to confuse people with the term "manifestations of investiture") pre-shattering, but they'd be subtle (or something like that). So I imagine they world-hopped through the means provided by whatever powers were in place before the shattering. Whoever finds the actual quote gets a prize (the prize may or may not be an upvote).

This pretty much closes it for me. Well done Phantom! To suggest that the Obligators went to the trouble of alloying all of the Atium they were squirrling away, the only recourse for the theory that I can see, seems to be crossing the line into conspiracy theory thinking to my mind. Of course, hence my inert remarks. However it is "condensed power of Ruin" as you yourself just remarked. This is the quote I'm looking for, do you know where it is? Well... enough leeway to be pretty much in balance with Ruin anyway (countering the effects of Preservation being slightly less powerful because of there being slightly more Preservation than Ruin in Scadrians).

Indeed. You'd have to imagine burning something already networked into your spirit web is all kinds of dumb, but we still haven't arrived at the exact effects of burning a non-networked spike. I still stand by my theory that it works a lot like a Lerasium-alloy, but with bonus mental illnesses.

Kelsier, training with that crazy guy whose name escapes me kills a noble mistborn with an interest in metallurgy and recovers a treatise on the 11 metal. We don't see Kelsier make it, we don't see Kelsier read it, we simply see Kelsier take a book about it. I don't agree with your theory, skaa old buddy, but here are some things that might help. One interesting tidbit which may help your theory, is that I recall reading in one of the interviews (but for the life of me I can't find it anymore!)is that seeing the future was not something Ruin was good at... the question was along the lines of why couldn't Ruin see Preservations plan before he enacted it. This has made Atium and its relation to Temporal Allomantic effects really odd to me... I mean, I can figure out why it might be the case, but the fact that it needs me to make an explanation around it marks it as an oddity. Here's something else which I'm not sure I have the significance of yet: Czanos (17 October 2008) Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same? Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)You are on to something. I too got the impression from the trilogy that using Allomancy around the Atium forming crystals would destroy them (not just because Allomancy can be destructive...I got the impression even burning Gold in the presence of the crystals would destroy them)... and I never thought about what this would mean for Atium itself (You're a clever skaa... too clever! I'm reducing your rations!)... however I imagine it has to do with the power being... inert... in its metal form. Vin had to take out her... SPOILER (Also, can someone tell me how to make the spoiler boxes?) ...hemalurgic spike when approaching the well, because the power was in its non-inert form, but I imagine she could have easily approached the Lerasium bead. Of course, this is speculation and I believe it is intuitive speculation, but it doesn't counter your theory.

I don't disagree with you, I just wanted to note that even if burning a spike which hasn't pierced you (option 1) allowed you to splice on sDNA, I don't think it would allow you to have two, and only two Allomantic powers... I think it would work like a Misting burning a bead of Lerasium alloyed with a metal which isn't their metal (eg. A Coinshot burning a Steel spike containing Allomantic Iron will map the Iron sDNA over his Steel sDNA, losing Steel and gaining Iron, just like if a Coinshot burned a Lerasium-Iron Alloy).

I have heard the 16 beads theory before, and I too favour it, it makes a lot of sense (were you the source by any chance?) I like to imagine my MAG team burned the other Lerasium beads...

This is something that came up in another thread reply, but I thought it could also be discussed here. Mike Cockrum (23 January 2013)How many shards has Hoid received powers from, whether taken, stolen, given, etc.? Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)Well, he has a bead of Lerasium. We know that Hoid has a bead Lerasium...as in... he HAS Lerasium... not had and burnt it, he HAS Lerasium. So he may already have Allomancy, or he may be keeping it for some other purpose, like the secret primary use of Lerasium we don't know about... OR, and here's where it gets interesting... if his Feruchemy DOES utilize metals (See my post in Shardlet's "Shardworld DNA blueprint based on Yolen DNA"), or at least CAN utilize metals, perhaps Hoid is using the bead as a metalmind. (This assumes my other theory which involves Lerasium or an alloy being a Metalmind for the ability to use Feruchemy itself is incorrect... a parallel speculation)

I'm glad to see you've turned this from a post on another theory into a full-fledged theory of its own, and being very Scadrial-locked in my thinking (books are a tad out of my budget of money and time for a little while) I look forward to the discussion. Now, on the matter of Hoid's Feruchemy... my understanding of Investiture is that different expressions of it develop in different ways based on the world and the Shards present. Metal is obviously very Scadrian as a key... but if Hoid and some of his abilities are from before the shattering, as your theory describes, is it possible that the key to Hoid' Feruchemy is NOT metal? Feruchemy separate from its particular context on Scadrial might function differently from the metal-Feruchemy we know and love, utilizing... something else? Or perhaps Yolen-Feruchemy needs no key at all and Hoid is able to dump attributes into another realm (Cognitive, Spiritual... pick one) and draw on them later. Something else to consider. We know that Hoid has a bead Lerasium (sidenote for Shardlet: Leras is the name of the original Preservation Shardholder)... as in... he HAS Lerasium... not had and burnt it, he HAS Lerasium. So he may already have Allomancy, or Yolen-Allomancy (if there is a difference of keys), or he may be keeping it for some other purpose, like the secret primary use of Lerasium we don't know about... OR, and here's where it gets interesting... if his Feruchemy DOES utilize metals, or at least CAN utilize metals, perhaps Hoid is using the bead as a metalmind. Thoughts?

Granted, but it brings hope to those of us with rubbish working memories

I've heard mixed answers to this, some saying the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic ability and others saying it doesn't. I too would like this answer, preferably with a Brandon quote or other reputable source. Sadly, I don't think the MAG covers this.

I was thinking of that for an epic scholar also... you see, in the MAG ("Oh shut up already Kadrok, you're always harping on about the MAG!") there's a Stunt you can get for Tin which lets you form perfect sense memories for a particular sense. So you could in theory form a perfect memory for each page of a book, storing them one by one in the coppermind without corruption... it makes being an Archivist way easier... and you'd be a living library!

That's a good point Shardlet, have an upvote. If that is the case it does make my own speculations less relevant, never-the-less I will continue them in the absence of WoB on the issue... Now, sorry to jump back a bit with something relevant to my earlier post but I've just rediscovered that Brandon mentions in the MAG (Brandon himself... it's in a "From Brandon" section) that it is theoretically possible to use someone else's metalminds with Feruchemical Aluminum (which Stores Identity) and I wonder if this has further implications for regional magic (though of course Aluminum has already been mentioned).

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be such a downer. The Aluminum quote completely blew my mind, and I look forward to seeing what you do with that rattling around in your head.

That is the greatest guess in the history of guesses... you'd get two upvotes if I had that power. As for wanting to steal from other people's metalminds...skaa... I think I've just found the mother-lode for you... but it's Aluminum not Nicrosil... in one of the From Brandon sections in the MAG... he says it's theoretically possible to tap someone else's metalminds with a proper manipulation of Feruchemical Alluminum. (Seriously guys, buy the MAG. It's $15 and it's full of shiny knowledge) Am I allowed to include the quote on the board, or is that breach of something?

No offence, but I think that is a poor analogy (No seriously, I don't mean to offend... sometimes people who begin sentences with "No offence" actually do mean to offend, but this is not one of those cases, and as a message board can't carry tone, I thought I needed to stress this. I respect you Voidus, and I don't want this to divide us). *Ahem* I think it is a poor analogy because the regrown limb represents a change in the bodies states and capabilities, unlike the change in position, but I can so see this descending into an argument of semantics and definitions... so how about we just sidestep all of that and note that there are Feruchemical effects that are permanent... despite perhaps being a secondary effect Gold can change you (which is what I wanted to get across). Copper can also change you, you can lose memories you had or gain again ones you've lost. And Aluminum, from what I understand from the MAG is like this... tapping enough changes you, in this case your personality, to what it was before. In a way it seems like Aluminum takes the tapping of Copper-like metals, at least for tapping a lot of Aluminum-charges (tapping only a few seems to have temporary effects) and mixes it with the storing of Steel/Pewter-like metals. And that is odd. Perhaps this is merely a quirk of the MAG, but Brandon wasn't divorced from the MAG's production... and I see no reason for the game creators to make stuff up around what is in gameplay a patently useless metal... Is this acceptable, or have I missed the point of what you were saying Voidus? I will ready an apology if that is the case.

I'm not sure it would be legal to do so, however the PDF version is only $15 from the online store. If you have $15 lying around, I highly recommend it... even if I never got to play the game, I would have considered the detailed information in the metals section well worth it. Here's the website: http://www.crafty-games.com/product_catalog/newreleases On that you are dead right, we don't know everything there is to know about Nicrosil Feruchemy, or indeed Feruchemy itself... Word of Brandon has it that Hoid uses Feruchemy in some precognitive way, and I have certainly not figured that out yet... perhaps a God metal alloy allows you to store "Destiny"? Certainly no more far fetched than Duralumin storing "connection to others" (which based on the MAG affects not just you, but those around you... in some weird metaphysical way) It's not really storing so much as overloading, though I would think that even a Soulbearer could drain another's metalminds it would be converted into the neutral "Investiture" which is the focus of Nicrosil-feruchemy. Still... as you have said, we don't know everything about Nicrosil-feruchemy, and I'd be very interested both in what we learn from the books, and what further secrets the upcoming Alloy of Law supplement to the MAG reveals. Have I mentioned my theory that Nicrosil-Feruchemy can be used to fuel Allomancy on this topic, or was that on another board?

I get the impression from the Nicrosil chapter of the MAG that you need to already be able to draw the energy to store it in a Nicrosil mind... so to store the energy from the mists in a Nicrosilmind you'd have to first be able to draw on the mists... I don't think you could go around leeching other people's metalminds. And even if you could, you'd convert the knowledge into generic energy I would think. However... you can dump investiture from your Nicrosilminds into other people's metalminds... the MAG is specific on this... the investiture destroys whatever they have stored... so if you want to grief an Archivist Ferring, with one touch you could channel a tonne of investiture into their copper minds, wiping them clean. CAUTION: Grievious bodily harm may follow.

Feruchemy can have permanent effects... tap enough gold and you can grow back a limb... and the limb remains when you stop tapping gold. As for Aluminum, the MAG suggests this is one of those permanent change cases... you draw enough, you set yourself back.

Brandon meant wishy-washy in a 'they have a less defined personality' sense I believe because they are literally storing their personality.

Check out my 'Copper Hemalurgy and Alluminum Feruchemy' for one possible use...

To be entirely honest, I really want this to be the case. Yeah, it's a bit boring, trading what could be the ability to mess with my weight, think a billion times faster, heal from wounds or superheat metals (so my coinshot is shooting molten metal... doesn't Steel/Brass sound totally kickass?) and yeah I'd need a Nicroburst bitch to constantly top me up (unless I can figure out how to drain the occasional mists...) but dammit, who doesn't want Allomancy without having to chow down on metals?

As it happens, yes... but it's weird... Brandon notes in one of his boxes (he has Brandon-says boxes throughout the MAG) that it's a very RP thing to store it... when storing you should play your character different, thinking about what personality traits make your character your character... and tone them down a lot... also make them more impressionable and "wishy-washy". In terms of hard rules when storing you're more amenable to manipulation (deception, seduction, intimidation, interrogation) and you're more suceptible to zinc/brass allomancy. Tapping is kind of the opposite... your character becomes a more extreme version of themselves... and they're harder to manipulate. The real interesting bit is the "Tapping More than 10 charges" section (which is a section every metal has and details extreme things you can do, kind of like feats... eg. if you want to use Gold to regrow limbs, it's in this section of Gold Feruchemy). Tapping lots of Aluminum resets your personality back to an earlier point... with more charges required for earlier personality regressions... and if you tap the max, you essentially reset your personality. I would compare it more to... tapping more of whatever you're tapping. You can only tap as much investiture as you're already tapping of whatever you want the investiture to act as, so say you're tapping 10 Pewter, you can only tap 10 Nicrosil to boost the Pewter. So you're functionally tapping 20 Pewter, but 10 of those Pewter charges are Nicrosil charges. There are no rules yet for tapping Nicrosil to boost Allomancy, but I am almost certain it is possible and I can't wait for the Alloy of Law rules in part for confirmation of this. You need to spend time converting a stored trait into Investiture, and during that time you can't store anything else. So you do need another non-empty metalmind to store Investiture this way. However, the MAG also gives rules for converting non-metalmind power such as the influx of power from a Nicrosil/Duralumin (Allomancy) burst or the power you would gain from the Well of Ascension or if you could somehow draw on the Mists like Vin can. How much you can store from this is limited by your ability in Nicrosil Feruchemy, and the power is converted into raw investiture, so you can't just drink up the whole Well of Ascension and pull it's power out whenever you want! This also explains why you need to be tapping another metalmind to use the stored investiture... you need it to "shape" the stored power. So, in theory a Nicrosil Ferring, having no other Metalminds to convert from would need a Nicrosil Allomancer buddy to burst him, so he could store it. I think I already answered this, but only as much Investiture, or less, than you are drawing Strength. I imagine it works more like the 'ghost' metal reserves that characters from the novels use... so you'd be able to pad out your metal burning... less cool, but still awesome in my opinion. Or perhaps the very nature of Allomancy would allow you to use the raw investiture like "mana", that is, perhaps your allomantic ability would do the "investiture shaping" without requiring the metal as a "power key". So for example, perhaps a Steel/Nicrosil could draw Investiture from his Nicrosilminds to power his Steel Allomancy without needing vials... it would be an effective counter to Chromium Allomancy, certainly.

From what I understand of Aluminum Feruchemy, it can allow you to reset your identity, personality and such, to the way it was at an earlier point. This seems to me a possible cure to the ill effects of certain kinds of Hemalurgy, such as Copper... which stores intelligence and memory... but also tends to cause insanity given you're essentially splicing part of someone else's mind into yours. The way I see this working is that you could either cleanse yourself of the spliced personality by storing it (that is storing the spliced personality...) either perpetually if it continually upwells from the spike, or all at once if that is possible, ridding you of it entirely. Alternatively, perhaps you can reinforce your own personality by drawing on aluminium charges stored before the spiking... draw enough and perhaps you can burn the residual personality out, in a similar way to how the MAG describes drawing enough Aluminum as wiping your personality clean... Another possible use I can see is that it could allow you to shake off some of the unusual effects of BURNING a Hemalurgic spike... assuming there is a use to burning a spike (which is of course a whole different 'kettle of fish'/'bag of cheese'/'coppermind of contentious ideas') Thoughts? Reflections? Harsh rebuttals with little consideration for my feelings ?

Have you read how Nicrosil works in the MAG. Because it isn't like this. In the MAG the Feruchemist used Nicrosilminds to convert other stored attributes into a generic energy source that can be tapped to boost other tapped attributes... say you've stored a tonne of heat you don't need after walking in a desert... you use Nicrosil feruchemy to convert the heat to investiture... then later when tapping pewter (or gold or whatever) you can tap Nicrosil and the investiture becomes flavoured as pewter... so it is... as you suppose, kind of useless on it's own. So Nicrosil doesn't so much store abilities as it stores generic energy. There are a couple of other ways to store which are of note, you can store influxes of energy depending on how good you are at storing and the examples given are if you could draw power from the mists, the Well of Ascension or even a Duralumin/Nicrosil burst. If you tap tonnes of it you can use it to erase other people's Metalminds. What I am interested in is how it interacts with Allomancy (the MAG is leaving the Feruchemy-Allomancy crossovers for the Alloy of Law supplement) since it seems like you should be able to store Allomantic burning as investiture and draw it later to pad out your metals. Like some kind of mana battery... EDIT: Coming off the back of my Gold Allomancy and Aluminium Feruchemy idea (the same connection you arrived at independently) I suggested that perhaps someone skilled with Malatium, or some other similar power, could store other identities for access to other regional identities... and perhaps as part of accessing multiple magic systems... let me find the link... DOUBLE EDIT: I figured I'd just quote it here as you're interested in possible ways of having multiple investitures... being able to swap out regional identities seems at least part of the puzzle.

One of the questions I just read was "Are cosmere planets alive like in Final Fantasy?" to which Brandon answered yes... connection?