CtrlAltDepressed

I don't think it is the bond specifically. I think it has to do with their Connection to the SR in some way. My evidence for this is that we see that Lift (ofc its Lift) is able to 'break' through Nale's insanity for a long time considering she is just speaking with him and not furthering her bond. This is when he is trying to kill her for being Radiant and she asks him if he feels anything any more. I think if we see any of the Heralds 'cured' it will be due to either Dalinar using his bondsmithing powers to Connect them to who they used to be / their spiritual self, or BAM's return.

The name is not canon, but the combination of Honor + Cultivation creates Towerlight, and this shard would be the Towerlight equivalent shard. Science was chosen as the name due to the fact that the Sibling herself is a bunch of fabrials and her association with Navani was very academic. I would like to point out that the Warlight and Towerlight combinations that we have seen would not actually be the investitures of those combined shards. Those lights exist as two separate tones, instead of one pure tone as a shard would have. Since these shards are not in direct opposition like Harmony's, I think we should expect an actual combination of the shards in this instance and not another Harmony 2-in-1 situation. To respond to the post, im going to attempt to find something that works for the grey boxes. Virtuosity + Dominion = Expertise Virtuosity + Autonomy = Individuality Honor + Virtuosity = Competition Honor + Whimsy = Neutrality Preservation + Cultivation = Progress Mercy + Odium = Apathy Mercy + Ruin = Execution Whimsy + Devotion = Mischief Trying to come up with more.....these are hard

I don't see how this prevents them from trying it. Their goal from Autonomy was to demonstrate their power in such a way to convince her that Scadrians can take care of themselves. If that is the goal, why wouldn't they try everything? Most of my issue is on the Brandon side of things. I think the story works and I like the story, I don't think its current state needed someone burning Trellium to be a good story or anything like that. But Im just confused / slightly frustrated that Brandon made that retcon for Atium specifically because he wanted god metals to be burnable by anyone, includes another god metal in the burning metals books, and doesnt even mention someone trying to burn it. I would be totally ok with a single line from a Set scientist 'We tried burning it and it did nothing' (that they can tell) or 'We tried burning it and the guy exploded' but we dont get any mention of even people being interested in exploring the other metallic art implementations of Trellium. Even if they don't know about Lerasium and Atium, this is the burning metals planet. Even unaware Scadrians will know that a metal like steel has (at least) three magical uses. Why, when given a metal they KNOW is from a shard, would they only experiment with Hemalurgy? The Words of Founding go into a lot of depth with Feruchemy, and the only written 'instructions' for Hemalurgy are from Spook, which the Set did not have. It seems like a plot hole to me that they would exclusively try experiments with the least known of the metallic arts when given a new metal. Why make all the god metals burnable if the series that could have used it / mentioned it, doesnt bring it up at all? Why is this a mechanic at all? Does Brandon have one specific scene in mind that he wants to write that involves burning a not Pres/Ruin god metal so hes made this mechanic? It just doesnt make sense to me that he would do the retcon AND make trellium an integral part of the story and not mention 2/3 metallic arts.

Hi All. This is an issue Ive had in the back of my mind since I read era 2 and I'm hoping you all can reason me through it. We see in Era 2 that spikes made from Trellium are able to shield Kandra from Harmony's sight. This is a huge revelation that leaves the Kandra and Set investigating further into the Metallic Arts as clearly there are things they haven't figured out (what secrets of Rashek will we never know?). My issue is this - why, in all of these scientific experiments did no one try burning Trellium or using it as a metalmind? The Set would know the history of Lerasium and Atium and were given Trellium by Autonomy. It seems like a plot hole that they would only use this new metal in one of their three Metallic arts. If it has no function in the other two, why not mention that quickly either in text or ars arcanum or in person? There were no mistborn, did they just not try because of this? The Atium retcon was put in because God Metals should be burnable by anyone. This seems like a plot hole to me. Sorry if this has been discussed before.

You'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird it happened twice.

Sunlit Man Spoilers

Ah, makes sense! This gave me an idea. What if you added 1 breath to a piece of laminated paper? And maybe you could put different symbols, like I dont know, the faces of past Monarchs on them to denote higher value paper? A completely original idea, I know.

I thought you couldn't give a specific amount away? Vasher learned how to give away his breath without giving away his divine breath, but i dont remember any instance where someone was able to give a portion of their breath away. In the above scenario the soldiers would never get their breath back as it is now one unit in the general. I suppose they could awaken something small to use a few breaths, give the rest to someone else, take the few breaths back from the object, pass those to the soldier, and then take the rest back. This seems very inefficent and probably wasteful, thoughts?

I am totally on board with this, but what piece specifically do you need Surge of Transformation for? The object is accepting investiture from you to power the change into the other object. Do you need the surge to be able to talk to the object? That seems unlikely since the object has its own soul. Do you need the surge for the object to use your stormlight? That doesnt seem likely either as you could have it use a gemstone instead. Does the object 'borrow' the surge access from you to transform itself? That doesn't seem to make any sense. The surges are unlike Allomancy in that the surges exist regardless of and predate the shattering. I know that Honor placed restrictions - is this an example of that? Before the Radiants everyone / anyone had access to the surges and we hear Raboniel speak on this (all the burned cattle and people). Since the surge is just a phenomenon and not necessarily its own magic system (Radiants are a magic system but Gravitation for example exists with or without Radiants), what piece of the puzzle do you need Transformation for? This seems very similar to awakening. You dont need Nalthian breaths to awaken, awakening is just a phenomenon of the cosmere and Nalthian breaths make it very easy. Anyone with the right amount of investiture and knowledge can awaken with an alternative power source. As another example - the surge of Gravitation is tricking your spirit into thinking there is a massive object in the desired direction. Hoid especially is really good at manipulating Connection, why couldn't he hack this as well?

I feel like Hoid of all people could soulcast without being a Radiant. At the heart of it, you are convincing an object to change itself, and providing the power needed to make that change. I dont know why he would need to become a Radiant for this. The package is nice in its own right, but we have to remember who we are talking about. Probably the only thing that can kill Hoid is a Shard or Nightblood. He doesnt have much use for plate. The blade would be useful as he can craft it into whatever he wants (a typewriter for example), but he doesn't seem to really need that. Personally, my head canon is that he chose to bond Design for 3 main reasons. Design was there and ready to bond someone, it was really easy for Hoid to take Elhokar's place and he did so because he was curious what the radiant experience is like sort of like 'might as well?' His fortune ability was clearly leading him to do this and he trusted that even if he doesnt know why Hoid is ultimately a sympathetic person and did not want to see Design hurt / corrupted fourth unlikely reason: he wanted access to easy investiture. i think this is unlikely because he of all people could learn how to absorb stormlight without a bond

To piggy back, the best part for me is the end:

Not necessarily. We have seen with many characters in SA that their moments of highest stress are when they gain the most clarity. Maya becomes the first deadeye to speak because Adolin was being condemned to death. I imagine his actual death would send her into a rage that might just pull her fully back together. Dalinar has been Brandons baby since Dragonsteel. I would be extremely surprised to see him die in this book, though his death would be hugely impactful I will give you that. Szeth for sure. That poor boy (man) needs to rest

So if im understanding you correctly you are saying that the contradiction does exist, but Harmony exists that way anyways, which is why hes having such a bad time? I think that just made it click. He should not work this way but he does and that is the issue. I think we are in agreement that if preservation and ruin were properly joined that the resulting god metal would not produce lerasium and atium in a trellium reaction, would not be inherently unstable, there would not be two mists and Harmony would have a pure tone. My disconnect was that I assumed this Harmony situation was an issue specifically because of the opposing Intents, and while it partially is, its really Sazed's failure to combine them properly that has caused the contradiction. As in, this is not the way that a shard combination is supposed to go. Before this I was under the assumption that this was standard as most of the Intents will conflict with each other and cause similar issues.

I subscribe to the death of Adolin for a couple main reasons. I think its a given that one of the main / mainish characters is going to die this book. Not only is it Brandons style, it seems to fit the overall theme of the story. The most Honorable thing someone can do is give their life for a greater good. In no particular order: -I would cry if Kaladin is the one who dies -I dont think Kaladin will die realistically because that would be a terrible ending to his arc in my opinion -Adolin has been sad about his lack of usefullness / power for some time now -What better way to be useful than to sacrifice yourself Deus Ex Machina style to save the day or allow someone else to save the day -He has been set up as the greatest dueler on Roshar, making his first loss that much harder / shocking -He is personally important to pretty much every main character and his death could be the final motivation for them to complete their character arcs / progress through more oaths -He is Kaladins best friend now, and is constantly pulling Kaladin out of his funk -He is Dalinars son, obvious connection there -He is Renarins brother, obvious connection there -He is Jasnah's cousin, though this one is the weakest simply due to Jasnahs personality -He is Shallans husband, and she is quite the mess. The loss of Adolin could be too much for her to relegate to a personality, forcing her to accept and process grief on her own, again allowing her to progress through the oaths. -He has set himself up as a champion of the deadeyes. I believe if he is going to die it will be in an act to restore Maya / all of the deadeyes.

I had heard the same things as you about Elantris, and for that reason I put off reading it for a long time. Boy was that a mistake. I got around to reading it recently and I liked it a lot more than I liked any of the books in MB Era 2. I still loved MB Era 2 but Elantris was great for me for a couple reasons: -The intrigue. There are a lot of questions that you ask very early in the book and you get answers to pretty much all of them by the end. In fact 9/10 of these answers are subtly written into the story before they are explicitly stated. -Unpredictably predictable. Going through the story, you have a pretty good idea of where the end of the book is going to end up. But HOW you get there has some curveballs. Which leads to a simultaneous "I KNEW IT" and "OHHHHHHH Why didnt i see that before" moment which is really fun. -The characters. For the most part their decisions and motivations seem genuine / not contrived and I relate to a lot of them personally (even some of the bad guys). This is something I was missing from MB Era 2. The bad guys there felt way more objectively evil than the bad guys in Elantris. -The magic. AonDor is just really really cool and a story that slightly revolves around AonDor is very interesting. -The Sanderstorm. I wont get too much into this but the ending is really good in my opinion. The crescendo builds slowly but surely and the payoff is huge. There were at least 5 moments while reading Elantris that I was blown away by the skill Brandon shows in pulling the pieces of this story together. Again, I love MB Era 2, but I didn't feel that way for Era 2.

The creation of Lerasium and Atium through Trellium must be a spiritual aspect of this reaction with the separation of axi representing the physical reaction. These are two distinct things here I think. Which is why only trace amounts were produced. Dropping one Shard does not mean he would drop the Shard 'Harmony'. He would drop Ruin and Preservation in one package. We call the entanglement of Preservation and Ruin Harmony but Harmony is not a new Shard. You are contradicting yourself in the first sentence so this really seems like a 'so the story can happen' kind of thing. The two above quotes seem to contradict each other. Either Ruin / Preservation exists or they don't - they currently do so Harmony cannot be a new shard. There is not a new Intent here. There are two opposite Intents that are (trying to be) harmonious. The Honor is not two smaller shards example is perfect for this actually. Im going to use Odium because its easier for me to get two smaller intents from that. Odium could be Passion and Wrath (as an example) however the Shard Odium is not currently made of two intents. It is one intent - Odium. To my knowledge Odium could not choose to only put forth the Passion part of his Investiture or just the Wrath part, as Harmony is doing with Preservation and Ruin. Passion and Wrath do not exist because they are aspects of Odium just like you say Preservation and Ruin need to be gone. This is a direct contradiction. Either Harmony is fully combined and is actually a new Shard - meaning he can no longer send Pres / Ruin separately - or he is not and Harmonium is not actually a new God metal. It is a spiritual intertwining - but not combination - of Preservation and Ruin. I just really don't see how you can have a grey area on wether this is a new shard or not. Obviously Ruin and Preservation are intertwined but what I have been getting at is that this must be distinctly different from them actually being Combined into a new shard. I was trying to use what we know about the Tones to figure out more things about Harmony's nature. The fact that you can use the previous tones to manipulate Harmony's investiture is part of the proof to me that Harmony is NOT a new Shard and Harmonium is NOT a new God metal. Harmony is very akin to the Dor. The intertwining of two Shards Intents creates a new thing, but that doesn't mean that the Dor is a new separate Intent that is the true combination of Devotion and Dominion. It is a spiritual averaging it seems like. There are still separately seons of devotion and skaze of dominion.

I did not mean just the electric current alone. I did not explain it well at all but I meant that if you passed an electric current through the harmonium and then sang the pure tones of preservation / ruin could you separate out the Lerasium and Atium similar to how Navani is able to move the lights around with the tones. The electric current makes the harmonium more like Lerasium and Atium on either side which kind of has to be spiritual mumbo jumbo since it isn't an alloy, which has led me to think there might be other ways to separate it other than a Trellium / Harmonium explosion. I think our misalignment here is that I think the pure tone of a shard is independent of the vessel that holds it. Leras and Tanavast have been dead for a very long time but the pure tone of Honor or Preservation have not changed. When Vin / Kelsier / Lord Ruler / Sazed ascended I would think it would be mentioned if the tone had changed. Again I did not explain well at all but I was referencing the Harmonium / water reaction. In that reaction the water is the catalyst for the Lerasium and Atium destroying each other. They react with the water to corrode into Harmonium hydroxide. Something that corrodes in the air and has an extremely violent reaction in water does not seem like a true God Metal. I'm proposing that it is a spiritual intermingling of Lerasium and Atium. Yes the god metal is filtered through the vessel, but clearly that is not an issue here because we already know of a method to extract Lerasium and Atium from Harmonium. Which is more than likely due to Sazed's personal knowledge of both vessels, but that doesn't really matter here. If it was a new God metal you should not be able to extract the previous vessels god metal from it. Coppermind: Due to the merging of Ruin and Preservation's intents into Harmony, harmonium's Spiritual aspect is in opposition with itself, leading to effects on the metal's Physical aspect, which makes it extremely reactive.[6][7] It reacts violently with water, similar to alkali metals. After reacting with water, residual harmonium hydroxide is left behind, though the substance's properties are unknown.[8] The Southern Scadrians use harmonium to create powerful bombs,[9] which the Set have been trying to replicate with limited success.[10] Harmonium corrodes and can react strongly in contact with the air; in order to prevent this, it is stored within oil So where is the new Harmonium coming from? Coppermind: Storing too much harmonium in one place supposedly can lead to the production of a perpendicularity I had imagined this perpendicularity as being created by a massive vein of Harmonium, which is where the malwish have been extracting it.

I believe I inferred it from this passage. ROW CH 76 I see what you mean about Towerlight and therefore Warlight not being a pure tone because it is two tones. It isn't just the tones of the two shards though, and this has me wondering if someone took up Cultivation and Honor in the same manner Sazed did, would they produce a the Towerlight godmetal equivalent to Harmonium? Seems Harmonium is not a new god metal at all technically (spiritually?) - its a spiritual meshing of Lerasium and Atium and that spiritual meshing creates physical changes. Doesn't this also mean that you could extract Lerasium and Atium from Harmonium using the electrical current Wax shows and the pure tones of Preservation and Ruin? Why do the Lerasium and Atium in Harmonium annihilate each other in such a violent reaction when Navani's experiments show Stormlight and Voidlight not blowing up on contact? It required the anti-tone for that. This must be a spiritual intertwining in a similar manner as Harmony right? Is this implying there is something anti-tone related happening to Harmony? That doesn't seem right. We haven't seen Harmony's perpendicularity, doesn't this mean that it would be as violent as Harmonium? I think im missing details this is not adding up for me.

Warlight is a combination of the Rhythms of Odium and Honor but is still its own separate pure tone. Raboniel tells us that the Rhythm of War is a pure tone, so I have to disagree on this point. I understood it that the resonating frequencies of Odiums tone and Honors tone creates / exposes a new pure tone. If the Rhythm of War was simply a combination of the two other rhythms, then the Rhythm of War should manipulate both stormlight and voidlight - and to my knowledge it does not. What my post was getting at is there is an inconsistency here with Harmony. The properties of Harmonium make it seems like the shards are joined together as one since it is not an alloy. However, the separation of the mists is proof that Harmony is as you said "Vessel to two Shards with opposing Intents that he tries to balance" Navani could have found the Rhythm of War without using the other tones. It would have been extremely difficult but once it is discovered, Raboniel remarks something along the lines of 'i never heard it before but that rhythm was always here' showing that it is not a product of Odium / Honors tone, those tones just helped reveal it.

Hello! I've been thinking about the Pure Tones and I have a lot of questions. So in ROW we see that using the pure tone of Honor, you get a reaction from Honor's investiture with the same holding true for Odium and Cultivation. We also see that when you combine stormlight and voidlight into warlight, that combining the tones of Honor and Odium allows you to manipulate warlight. After Harmony's ascension, there are two mists on Scadrial - one for Pres and one for Ruin. However, Harmonium is NOT an alloy of Atium and Lerasium. This seems to be a contradiction. Wouldn't we expect there to be one type of Harmony mist? Do the preservation mists still respond to the tone of preservation and vise versa for the ruin mists? I cant imagine why they wouldn't since the mists are not Harmony - they are pres / ruin. If there is a Harmony tone, I wouldnt expect that one tone to effect Preservation and Ruin investiture in the same way I wouldn't expect the rhythm of war to manipulate both voidlight and stormlight. If we take that one step further - you should be able to separate Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium using the pure tones of Preservation and Ruin. It seems like this is what the Trellium spike was doing. Using the tone of Pres/Ruin pulls the investiture towards the source, however Trellium's tone pushes away all other investiture, which is why it produced Lerasium and Atium even though Harmonium is not an alloy. We have this WOB that leaves the tone of Harmony in obscurity for the time being. I think there being two mists and what we know about the tones from ROW that it is clear that Harmony does not have a pure tone. It is possible for Harmony to have a pure tone, but preservation and ruin are not resonating how we see in ROW with warlight. If Harmony had a pure tone, the tones of Preservation and Ruin should be 'gone' and all of their investiture should become Harmonys investiture. But it didnt - it stayed seperate. I know that part of this might be because the shards of Harmony are in such disagreement with each other, but im proposing that this problem is deeper. Odium and Honor are quite opposite Intents (thought not as fully), yet they can still be harmonized (hah) into a pure tone. What do you all think? Is Harmony how we expect shard combinations to go? What ive discussed above makes me think that the shards are not actually joined. Sazed is a vessel holding two shards instead of a vessel holding two harmonized shards which would function as one shard. Yes, their investiture is very tangled and would be very very hard to seperate, but I think thats just the point. The investitures are tangled, and not joined.

Im fairly certain there is a WOB that you could manipulate the mists on Scadrial with the pure tone of Preservation. I will look for it an edit it in if i find it. There is this one: Menderbug Is the Well's pulsing a 'pure tone of Scadrial'? Brandon Sanderson Yup! Miscellaneous 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020) and this one MoriWillow Is that tone and rhythm stuff universal to the Shards and Investiture elsewhere? Brandon Sanderson The tones can be expanded to other Shards and Invested Arts around the cosmere. dIvorrap Are the Allomantic pulses a Seeker hears (like drum beats) related to the tones of Preservation, then? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they are. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020) From these WOB's I would assume that you will get a response from Metallic Arts provided you are using the right tone.

I certainly think that is Hoids goal or tangentially his goal. I think we will learn a lot about Ado and the shattering eventually, however I don't think the climax of the story or any of the story really will be focused on Ado reforming or anything like that. We know that Ado created the Cosmere so this story is ultimately what happens when God (god? who knows! ) is killed, and fallible mortals are left to control that power. There's also the numbers part of it all. There are 16 shards. Currently at least 5 of them are splintered. There are at least 5 that we have virtually no information on at the moment. This is not even to mention the aethers. I don't think that some of those shards will be seen in major effect for a long time and that there won't really be a final storyline or real conclusion. The Cosmere is a big place with a lot of different peoples. All these missing shards leave areas for Brandon to tell new stories. For example, there are hints of a Scadrian / Rosharan conflict. I really dont see that conflict being resolved by the combination of all those shards. It will be a generation spanning ill-will with different resolutions and conflicts at different points in history. Potentially even a uniting against a more Cosmere wide threat, that type of thing.

This doesn't need to be limited to Hemalurgy either. You could have metalmind chips that grant feruchemical / allomantic abilities and / or feruchemical batteries that are devoid of Identity. A standardized form of education where every citizen is given a coppermind full of the information they need. I'm imagining Gladiator style games where both contestants are given the medallions needed to compound gold and then fight to the (near) death. Seems like we could be wrapping back around to the situation in era 1. Those who are wealthy enough to buy the abilities they want will be able to control the common folk and become a quasi-nobility. Normal Scadrians would be selling their extra innate Preservation for use in spikes, similar to how Nalthians sell their breath for exorbitant amounts (or are pressured).

Agreed - she is unmaking lesser spren. The unmaking process seems to be an additive process, rather than subtraction / rearranging. When we see Raboniel unmaking the Sibling she is only adding Odiums Investiture to the spren, which would ultimately warp the very essence (personality, disposition, memories) of the creature. As a rephrasing of what others have said, Sja-Anat is not able to produce / add enough of Odiums Investiture to corrupt something bigger than an Oathgate spren. Its possible that what Raboniel did had subtle effects on the Siblings personality but is not nearly enough to call her unmade.

I think that the physical pieces of Harmonium that exists would stay as Harmonium, but any new God Metal Produced at the perpendicularity would be Discordium and would presumably have different properties. There is an argument to be made that he is already Discord and is denying it to himself / resisting the truth. I think some evidence of this can be seen through the properties of Harmonium. You wouldn't think that the god metal of Harmony would be the most destructive substance we've seen to date, in addition to being virtually unusable in all of the metallic arts. I think the perpendicularity would stay where it is unless he decided to move it, which is certainly possible with a drastic shift in Intent.