CtrlAltDepressed

I would agree. This does beg the question, where is Ishar getting the investiture to do what hes doing now? We havent seen if heralds still have access to infinite stormlight through their Honorblades - do we think this is the case? We know that Ishar hasnt bonded his order (unless its the nightwatcher which would be CRAZY but i think impossible because he would no longer be unbound) so he cant be absorbing it like a radiant. Maybe hes using another form of investiture? If so, which one? Perhaps he is so crazy he is getting voidlight from Odium.

Interesting, definitely seems likely. Do you think he could kill an unmade / stormfather / nightwatcher / sibling this way?

Interesting theory, could definitely be the case. I dont think it is because the passage states that the spren spontaneously manifest a physical body. I feel like if it was taking over radiant bodies, it wouldnt be described that way. That description could itself not be accurate though lol.

Heyo All. Looking for thoughts and potentially clarification. When we visit Ishars camp, it is discovered that through unknown means he is somehow forcing (convincing?) spren to manifest physical flesh bodies instead of as godmetal. We are told / learn (cant remember the passage exactly) that the spren dies within a couple of minutes. The stormfather is understandable upset about this and doesnt really give a lot of information. And then all the other Ishar stuff happens so it isn't really touched on again. I have so many questions. -How is he pulling them in? Is he creating a perpendicularity like Dalinar (unlikely) to force them through? Something with hemalurgy? -Is this one of the mechanisms that was broken due to unmade / trapping of Mishram or was this never possible? if it is a broken mechanism, is the broken aspect that this can be done at all or that it kills them right now? Is there a way to bring spren into physical realm with bodies without killing them? maybe not as flesh bodies, but something similar to Stormfather who is only in PR? -'the spren dies' what kind of death is this? TSM Spoilers: I realize there may not be any answers for these questions, but i hadn't seen this discussed and it feels like it could potentially be really huge. What are your alls thoughts? Is this important or just showing how crazy Ishar is that he would try this?

Why does every splinter need to be comparable? What i mean is there is nothing saying that Endowment couldnt have chosen for the Divine Breath to be 10x what it is or only half as large. Why does the innate investiture of the Iriali (who we have very few details about) matter to them being splinters? I would say all scadrians are at some level splinters of pres / ruin (harmony?) but they are still regular people as far as innate investiture is concerned.

I love this theory and have always thought that the Iriali were alluding to once being a shard that shattered itself into a people. My only issue with your theory is that this seems to line up more closely to the Intent of Wisdom / Prudence (unconfirmed) - in addition, if Virtuosity had splintered themselves into a people, I feel like we wouldn't be seeing the other splinters of Virtuosity around Komashi. The situation around Komashi seems to lend itself towards a violent / unfortunate splintering rather than an thought out / planned action. If Virtuosity was going to rebuild when the Journey is complete, I dont feel like they would leave the splinters around Komashi. I could still absolutely see this being the case though.

Im headed down the rabbit hole now, thank you!

Thanks for sharing I hadnt seen that WOB before. I agree that Taln is Taln, and I honestly did not pick up on the potential of it being a false herald until after I had finished ROW, and by that time its pretty clear. I was worried I was missing something lol. On this note......do we really think that after all those thousands of years, Taln finally broke now? That doesnt seem to make sense to me. Because it wasnt just the 4500 years, Taln never broke EVER. So i highly doubt he broke now. When we see him in the end of Oathbringer, he has to be told that he is back, he cant even tell hes not on braize anymore due to his madness. That doesnt seem like someone who could even know that 'breaking' is a possibility. Where im going with all this, what weight do you all place on the Shallans mother was a herald theory? We know that her mother was saying pretty much the same thing as Nale (kill all Radiants to stop the desolation) It makes sense that the cryptics would bond her at such a young age as they would be very interested in 'spying' on a herald It makes sense that the skybreakers would give shard blade/plate to Heleran in this scenario It makes sense that Hoid would have been following Shallan from a young age if her mom is a herald The timeline is sort of messy here, but taken all together, if shallans mom actually was a herald, that would put her on braize for 7 years. That seems like a realistic timeline for a not taln herald to break, given that we are told they were happening back to back towards the end. This also lines up with Shallan's personal arc - her 5th truth would be that she caused the desolation I admit it would be weird for this to not come up until the 5th book, but I think its very plausible. What do you all think?

What are your thoughts on the Taln is not the original taln theory? Cant find them at the moment but there have been multiple WOB's that say something to the effect of 'the guy who THINKS he is taln'

Sunlit Man, MB (all), Stormlight (all)

Part of the 'problem' is that Brandon loves this. In the most recent spoiler stream, he spoke directly to 17th sharders and said that 'one of the theories ive seen posted about SA5 is correct' WHICH ONE BRANDON???

It must be Raysium at some level to leech stormlight. A logical assumption would be that Raysium would NOT block a shardblade? Otherwise why add the aluminum at all?

I specifically remember Leshwi's weapon that drained the stormlight from Kaladin - was that Aluminum? I thought the parallel there is that Raysium sucks in investiture, therefore stealing the stormlight from the Radiants. As opposed to an aluminum blade that you would expect to block a shardblade, but would be inert when stabbed into something. We dont ever see aluminum suck up investiture, just block it.

Agreed. The issue here is not the Raysium. That stuff has been around. The fused have had weapons for thousands of years that can block a shardblade. What else could that be besides Raysium? I think the most likely scenario here is that the details of the Oathpact were interfering. We see that as soon as the Oathpact is widely known the be broken, almost immediately Jezrien is killed. It seems to me that Odium DID know about this, but that it wouldnt have helped them before now. The Heralds spirits were already in a weird cycle. We havent seen anywhere else that this respawn cycle happens, so its not a leap of logic to assume that Honor heavily modified what happens to those individuals spirits when they die. What im getting at, is since Honor prevented their spirits from going to the Beyond, that same mechanism would have prevented them from being trapped. Odium would have known this, given that he basically copied Honor with the fused in terms of their infinite respawn cycle. IE: stab a herald with raysium and gemstone, they are killed, but instead of trapping their soul they end up on Braize like they are supposed to. I believe that if Jezrien had been stabbed in this manner previously, he would have leaked back to braize instead of leaking into the beyond as we see happen. Odiums forces have been using Raysium pretty effectively. We see Leshwi when battling Kaladin, her sword drains his stormlight when fighting. So, yes, Odium was aware of the effects of his god metal, and he produced enough of it for at least the most distinguished Fused to use (seems pretty common though, for fused). It seems he was waiting for the Oathpact to be broken before imploying this method of trapping them specifically. In this day and age, if they wont help him (Nale), then I think we will see other Heralds killed in the same way (or attempts).

Agreed on all points. We know that the heralds were killed many many times by the fused. In fact, the only time that only one was killed they all quit lol. Why wouldn't Odium have them use Raysium blades from the beginning or at least a couple hundred years in? It makes no sense that Odium would allow this charade to continue since the Heralds have pretty much single handedly prevented him from getting what he wants. As an extension of that, why havent Honor / Cultivation used this or anti-voidlight against Odium / Fused?

Wow, really good point. I hadn't considered that. If the aluminum sheath does not work beyond the physical realm, that might be what Brandon was hinting to when he mentioned that it would be even more dangerous to transport nightblood through shadesmar than through physical realm. Edit: This is very confusing upon further reflection. If the sheath only exists in physical, then is there a floating nightblood in the CR that is constantly destroying things as szeth moves through the world? Clearly this isnt happening, but the sheath definitely wasnt in the vision. Very curious indeed. Perhaps the sheath in physical stops only the consumption in cognitive but doesnt prevent the cognitive form of nightblood from leaking.

Exactly. Following the details of our conversation, you would expect to see a huge amount of leakage in the house, proportional to the amount a single alethi creates when hit by Nightblood. That is an inconsistency that probably only Brando can answer. Will have to hope i'm lucky next spoiler stream

This is not true. It is stated that Taravangian removed him from the sheath in addition to a mention of Szeth resheathing it when the deed was done. I am at work so cant find the source at this exact moment.... The problem is not that Rayse wasnt there physically. Nightblood was in the physical realm the entire time, even though he manifested in the vision. Nightblood always sucks peoples souls up, and spits it in the physical. Why would this be any different?

Nightblood ALWAYS cuts on all three realms and leaks into the physical. Why would this situation be the only time he leaks into the SR / Demense?

Agreed. I can accept all the things said about Nightblood, but this is still an inconsistency to me. They explained above that Nightblood would have released the smoke from rayse into the spiritual realm, but that doesnt really make sense considering he ALWAYS cuts on all three realms. Just because Rayse pulled Taravangian into the spiritual realm, there was still a physical representation of Nightblood and Taravangian (proven by him feeling Szeth stab him while in the SP with odium). An explosion of black smoke / liquid investiture of that amount would have at the VERY least been something that Szeth would have noticed. Realistically that amount of investiture leaking could create a perpendicularity. We know those are not shard dependent, but investiture dependent. We see in MB 2 that Marasi is able to close a perpendicularity with a couple allomancers (which we know does not use as much investiture as other systems), so perpendicularity's cant have that much investiture compared to the amount that we have been told Nightblood contains. He has way way more than the bands, and I feel like the bands were close to perpendicularity levels of investiture. The perpendicularity point also comes into play for the 'recycling' aspect. Perpendicularity's leak investiture back into the spiritual realm, but they are still physcial embodiments of tears in the realm, where that recycling takes place (all three realms are together, easier to exchange investiture). It is interesting that Nightblood manifested as a sword in the spiritual realm. I mean, of course he does because he cuts on all three realms, but Brandon has been cagey about what he looks like in CR. It makes sense that one would be different of the three considering his unique creation, but if he looks like a sword in spiritual, why wouldnt he in cognitive?

Not to be pedantic but this doesnt say that stormlight expended as surgebinding or lost to exhaling goes back to the spiritual realm. I am open to that possibility but this seems to indicate that happens primarily with people moving back and forth through birth and death. So you would posit that wielding a full nightblood, he would still convert what he touches into black smoke, but he would not be consuming investiture from the wielder? Is there consensus on this? I know there is some connection between Midnight Spores, Midnight Mother, and Nightblood - is Nightblood corrupting what he consumes into whatever Midnight Essence is, or is Midnight Essence itself a corruption? Very interesting point about it not being Red. Yes, for sure, thank you! Im not convinced this is exactly how things are working but this explanation scratches that itch for the time being haha.

Thank you for the clarification. Is it ok to still put things in tags? I dont want to accidentally spoil something or break a rule. I dont think you've fully explained this part (sorry it was in an edit). Szeth keeps NB in the sheath unless he is using him - how would NB have had time to leak (almost) a vessels worth of investiture. Your point about the unmade being more invested than a vessel - sure - but those are both still SUPER invested entities by normal people standards (what NB mostly eats). In addition, there is something to the fact that Nightblood was not just consuming Rayse, he was consuming (tiny tiny tiny) parts of the shard Odium through Rayse's Connection. This was hands down the most investiture we've seen Nightblood consume at one time. As far as Rayse not being as Invested as Unmade due to storage in a gemstone - we see in the passage that you quoted that Szeth used many gemstones worth of stormlight to fuel Nightblood for a couple of seconds - and it kept eating. I think the gemstone thing is not a true measure of capacity of the gemstone but more a function of the physical structure of a gemstone (crystal structure doesnt have gaps for things to escape). So starting from that point - is Nightblood going to be very very very close to satiated for a long time since Szeth isnt letting him leak? If he does start consuming szeth when wielded, it should take minimal stormlight for szeth to wield him since Nightblood is at 100%. Like, all of the things you have said work on their own. But you still havent showed me how the amount he can store total, the amount he leaks, and the amount he consumes (exponential) can work all together. He cant consume it exponentially in this scenario if he is that close to full. See what im getting at? If this IS the case, we should / need to see some different behavior from Nightblood in SA5. Either he wont consume exponentially when drawn after this event, or this understanding of Nightblood is flawed. Sauce?

OK im going to try again. Thank you to @alder24 @Treamayne for contributing, I have learned quite a bit through this thread. However, we haven't really touched on the true point of confusion here. The specific details of Nightbloods leakage and consumption just arent adding up. We have been bringing up other details (endowments involvement, moment of creation, shasharra, etc) to help explain but I think they moved us past our original intent (hah). So with how you all are explaining that Nightblood works - there is a cap on the amount of BEU's that the sword can hold in total. Since Nightblood is 'almost' to fully full, the sword is supersaturated in Investiture and therefore leaks a black smoke that is overflowing corrupted investiture from what he has consumed. Lets look at ROW spoilers: We will call this an 'infinite investiture' situation where Nightblood can consume as much as he wants. ROW is approximately one year later in world, and in that we see ROW spoilers: We see when OB spoilers: Continued OB and ROW: We see all the time in the cosmere that when investiture is condensed into one area, freaky stuff starts to happen. That amount of released investiture into Roshar in a year should have serious consequences for the surrounding area, especially considering that it is corrupted investiture. But no ROW: EDIT: This is what i was originially getting at, apologies for not being very clear.

This exactly. Obviously we havent been given hard numbers on any of these things, but Nightblood has more investiture than bands of mourning by a lot. We see them almost drain the bands in one event. He has more Investiture than Susebron with 50,000+ breaths. Either Shasharra had hundreds of thousands of breaths when killed or her dying specifically is why Nightblood leaks. I have always understood the consumption of Nightblood to be two pronged. Obviously Nightblood consumes the investiture of whatever he touches, however that doesnt mean its all the same consumption. What I mean by that is Nightblood is consuming the investiture of the wielder to FUEL the consuming of whatever he is wielded against. These have always seemed like two separate mechanisms. This can be see from this If nightblood was 'full' and therefore was leaving behind the smoke since he couldnt consume it - why is he still feeding off vasher? In addition, we dont have anything that says he wont consume you when he is full. There is the WOB that i cannot find where he talks about if you are .001% of 100% then the moment that there is any gone you are going to be consumed. This does not work. Like mathematically. How can he have a defined upper limit, yet eat more and more the more that you use him? That doesnt make any sense. Theoretically if Vasher had one million breaths vs one hundred million breaths, the amount of maximum time that he can wield nightblood should be the same, since the consumption grows exponentially. Again - Shasharras death must have severely modified how nightblood works. There is no way that she could have wielded him for an entire battle without him operating differently. Like even if she had 1 billion breaths, his exponential consumption should severely limit the amount of time you can wield him. For instance: This scenario: Nightblood is already full / Breath Per Second = BPS If you have 10,000 breaths, and lets just say Nightblood consumes them at 1 BPS with an acceleration of 1 BPS - meaning that the first second he will consume 1 breath, next second 2 breaths, etc. That would mean that Nightblood would also need to leak at 1 BPS with an acceleration of 1 BPS - or else you could wield him for hours and hours off of 10,000 breaths. This is not the case - the leakage is never described as more or less - like it is with stormlight. Is that making any sense at all? I think my theory of him using the wielders investiture to fuel consuming the investiture he strikes allows this all the work.

This is more what I was getting at. All of the details of this sword do not line up. All that WOB confirms is that the investiture is not lost. It does not say that the investiture in Nightblood is recycled. Stuff that leaks off would be recycled, but we have nothing telling us that the investiture in the sword goes back to the spiritual realm. This is EXTREMELY important. This cant all be the case. The sword grew in power over time and is second only to shards. Lets consider that for a moment. There must be something special to Nightblood if he, as a steel sword, can hold more investiture than ANYTHING else besides the source of that investiture itself. Are you trying to say any steel sword can hold that much? The sword has more investiture than: Tress spoilers: MB2 spoilers: Warbreaker: It kind of doesnt matter how many breaths shasharra had when she was killed. These details dont line up. Yes, Nightblood leaks investiture because he is supersaturated. However, that doesnt explain the supersaturation. His power has only grown over time. And we know that there were periods (perhaps decades) where Nightblood didnt consume anything and yet he is still one of the most invested things that exists. The leaking starting with Shasharra would not have been a supersaturation, as indeed, we know that Nightblood will continue to get stronger and stronger. The leaking starting at that event must have broken / changed the sword to consume investiture like it does. This would explain why the sheath timeline is messy, and also how shasharra would have been able to wield the sword for so long. My interpretation of nightblood has always been that he is a black hole and the smoke he leaks is similar to hawking radiation. Nightblood contains so much investiture that bits and pieces break off and leak. However, hawking radiation is so minimal with black holes, that they will functionally never be completely radiated. What I mean is that Nightblood contains so much investiture that it is impossible for him to leak it all out. Just like when we interact with shards. There is investiture leaking and spilling everywhere constantly. But that doesnt change the investiture of the shard whatsoever. Now, Nightblood is no shard but if we think about the amount of investiture that he has consumed it doesnt make sense that the leaking would have any effect on his investiture level. Even just the investiture from closing honors perpendicularity once, the smoke excretion does not increase, and it should based on your theory. OB spoilers: Your interpretation seems to believe that Nightbloods level of investiture is in flux (higher, lower) rather than only going up. And that seems impossible given that he is the most invested thing other than shards. It would also indicate that you could 'starve' Nightblood by leaving him alone for long enough. Which really does not seem like the case.