Stigmadiabolicum

Well, we know ulim and the Heralds speak with modern English affectations and words, maybe just like that is from asshyn, mollys a holdover from back then. I just assume szeth is going to fight a stonewalker to protect molly the sheep..and will be made a warrior haha, demoting his whole family..itll be super sad. But honestly I'm just so curious.. other than moving the rock at home i have no clue what they could do to be sent to the honorblades versus just being made into a warrior, who also use oathstones. We know being made truthless is decades later

Of course bud! No worries, im glad the other guy found all the citations for what we were both explaining, those wobs are what always helped me years ago Its not like theres one single infodump in the books, its pieced together through pieces in all 4 and those wobs, so no worries, plus we still have some gaps he hasnt clarified yet. You arent wrong about it being janky though, definitely deeply flawed haha. Ir does the job but definitely not long term, CS crack over long periods of time even without torture. I disagree they don't have physical form on braize though, just because raboniel says there's not life on the surface doesnt mean they wouldnt. It could definitely be a blend of cognitive and physical torture though, but Kaladins brief time there in the vision is the only glimpse we get. But the way jezrien and kalak talk about their torture seems like it wasnt abstract, smelling their flesh and fat burn, tearing pieces off, definitely damages their physical vessel but just regenerates since they're CS's. The longer it went, the more their cognitive self reflects their self perception mentally, like lopens arm/kaladins scars, they view themselves as broken I doubt well get the full explanation until Taln and Ashe's books, think we get lift and renarins first, since book 6 will be around 2029-30 after MB era 3 and elantris sequels, well get the herald povs in the late 2030's hahah

Love the question bud haha, it's definitely been slowly hashed out over a decade now We know if they do get a flawless victory, or any of them survive, they do need to willingly return to braize, log off the roshar server, the final one we saw was them just finally refusing. We know the fused did respawn from braize until the heralds locked them away, it just wasn't as instantaneous as the everstorm, so theyd prepare everyone, have a desolation and win some of the big boss fights, then just head back. On braize they dont just immediately get captured, the fan understanding is theyre on the run being hunted until finally getting caught and tortured, sharing the burden. Id imagine very similar to what Kaladin was going through in the braize vision when he met Hoid in RoW. The mechanism to how they break under torture and start a return is unclear, id imagine its just Intent. It almost seemed like they never realized Taln never broke til near the end, maybe they dont know which of them gives in, although if Taln gets his senses back he'd know this time around it was Shallans mom heh As far as how it started off, i think the oathpact created a barrier, it blocks off the fused as they got killed, and then the heralds head on over to shore it up. the way nale and ulim talk he seemingly slipped through the cracks during their experiments transferring investiture off world. As for why not imprison them on roshar, that had been attempted before, they just eject from that body and come back, now popping them in gems on the other hand, that might have worked. I definitely think they wouldnt win without troops and later radiants, theyre all absolute legends but even they couldnt take on all the fused. The real question is why didnt they just get new replacement heralds, or at least each rotate out haha. unless they had to be from Ashyn, it isnt like odium not ever making new fused since he hates investing

What im still curious about is if Taravangian was right when he said he needed to hide his plan from Dalinar? Would he have been cool letting T give it a shot and told Szeth to bring nightblood? Or was it too risky, i mean Renarin dropping off the enlightened spren to give Odium a reason to pop over was obviously hidden to him, assuming Sja Anat told him to. He saw the light at the end of the darkness in his future, not knowing it was the shard haha, assuming it was a hopeful future possibility for him.. Really curious if Dalinar would have been okay with it, or innately opposed, its not like becoming Todium was the plan, just murdering Rayse.. As far as his boon curse, WoB has hinted it is still active, and knowing Cultivation might be a kind of handicap, like a much more severe version since hes tied to the other realms now. Maybe it works kind of like harmony where his intelligence days hes severely nerfed and misaligned with the power, and can only act on dumb days (which is still dangerous as we've seen in his dealings with Rayse)

Sorry to necro, just finished reread 10 & getting depressed we have another year (let alone til 2040 for SA10 hahah) But Dalinar definitely has a vision while hes drunk chilling at the Inn right before he heads into the valley to meet Cultivation. Its vague and disjointed, and he discounts it at the time. Its one of the visions hed mentioned at the end of WoK/beginning of WoR that hed seen already, but was way before hed started remembering and interacting with them. Maybe it started after renarins hug, or specifically after Jasnah read the way of kings to him at gavilars funeral, right before he marched off to the plains and took his detour to the NW. (Lending credence to the theories his mysterious Connection to Nohadon/Beyond started after that initial reading of WoK) Honestly, as awesome as the prologue is, especially basically confirming Shallans mom, and as beautiful as Kals chapters are, i wish there was discussions on Szeths flashback chapters, just life in shinovar, him following the stew instructions haha, its got a lot of little tidbits At least we have SP4 coming soon, hoping its as much of a cosmere bonus info book as TLM/Tress & the Dusk 2 prologue was haha. He did say it was made for us cosmere aware fans. I know he wants to keep them being accessible to new people, but after a decade i really hope he just goes all-in now, not wait til era 3/4.

Well Vasher theorizes she takes their memories because as cognitive shadows, they can philosophically be seen as a new person, a copy, not the original and should form new memories (personally i think it's just the same as a Trek transporter, or Stargate, its still the same person but thats not something BS will ever clarify, and hed likely believe their soul goes to the beyond) The other possibility is it makes Returned take a lot longer to degrade, we know CS like heralds and fused slowly just become spren like and lose their mind, partially because the immortality and their status as CS, but that's the reason why Hoid stores memories in breath to stay sane. (Worldhoppers dont age the same, but most all weve seen haven't gone mad over centuries, but their quasi immortality hasnt been elaborated, if its a cheat method like rashek or just relativity, the daughter from elantris popping up in TLM as codenames is the only one weve seen age, but likely before they became a WH) The thing with Endowment is shes always the exception not the rule haha, she hacks the system, none of the rules apply and her investiture is less "sticky" than other methods, tied to her shard. Returned can gallivant around the cosmere without being tethered like Kel or the Heralds.

This was answered later on in RoW, remember? As others in the thread said. "The wealth of Lasting Integrity: gemstones—gathered over millennia—so flawless, so perfect, that they didn’t leak" Of course that doesnt rule out other factions doing the same thing, but that's definitely the answer to that thread brought up by Adolin. But probably just breeze past that on rereads since its a one off line. On yet another relisten now and was also curious about other possibilities, but after Mayas revelation, i feel like thats a huge addition to the radiants, especially if dalinar can overcharge them haha. Its probably a thread setting up things for the back 5, like Kaladin wanting to revolutionize medicine, as a lot of tidbits in Lost metal were meant for era 3

holy crap you were actually like 90% of the way there to Knights of Wind and Truth hahaha, wow. He also snuck the 'and' in there. Im assuming its gotta be something written about Kaladin and the Windrunners, hopefully not a eulogy but maybe just since its the end of the first 5 era, and he'll probably contribute in some key way, its like a book detailing the legend of the glorious stormblessed haha, but still could be written by Ishar, maybe near the end as a project for Kals mental health clinic after hes been cured

(i just started thinking about this on my current relisten of the series, its even more noticable with Ulim/Ash in the GA with their delivery) So we know from TLM and WoB that to keep an eye out for worldhoppers by seeing words like soil etc, weird things that dont translate using connection tricks. Considering the Heralds reappeared over generations initially, wouldn't be surprised if theres some connection trickery to let them speak, otherwise they'd be using Dawnchant & only be able to talk to the current Bondsmith of the era So since its hacking Ashyn--> Rosharan, we can assume thats where they get it from. Everyone has always theorized voidspren like Ulim might have been humans from that era, which explains his weird human mannerisms, but thats a separate issue entirely haha.

So it definitely had to be a fullborn, not mistings or ferrings all chipping in, that's why the Malwish couldn't just make more easily. Wax asks him that and he snarkily says oh man she didn't we ever try that? They max out quickly once it gets to 2/3 powers doing it piecemeal, the only way to make one like the bands is instilling it with all the powers at once. I could maybe see like a Mistborn and full ferochemist working together, each adding a power set so it's only "used" twice, but that's a stretch. Since spook was such a beloved emperor i could see people being on board with his idea to get spiked before death to not lose the powers, but even then you'd only get mistings and ferrings since he's not going to make full Marsh level people So since we know Kel has no powers it's a big mystery where the hell he found a fullborn, why the hell they left the bands there, why he hooked up the Malwish with the unsealed tech but not elendel.. Since era 2 was unplanned most of his kel plot was meant for era 3 so I'm just looking at all this as bonus set up and foreshadowing and we'll get answers then

My apologies bud! Since we were discussing Era 1 & 2 in relation to RoW I figured it was okay, all cosmere just blends together for me haha. is TLM still just off limits? I get Tress being flagged since it's brand new Either way, won't happen again

Oh really, even now? My apologies, I'm on it

You're partially right, they're still infinite but even that tiny bit created an imbalance. The fact preservation invested more of themselves into humanity, making ruin more powerful was a major plot point, which is why hoarding the atium was needed to nerf him and maintain their balance. Same reason odium never invested himself, why he'd have a leg up on honor and preservation at first. It's basically like melkor expending his power in his creations haha, and same reason breaking an agreement would open themselves up to being attacked, it's a delicate balance. Obviously infinite is infinite, whether they make 1 human or a planet it shouldn't matter, even if their investiture exists in the physical as metal, a gas or entities, but it does, we just don't know if it's a realmatic thing or what.

TLM spoiler

So i get thinking this is future book 5 events..but this is clearly referring to Way of Kings, when he was a bridgeman literally facing arrows, figuratively going to damnation, and when Kal met Hoid playing a flute, before he was a radiant and would have been happy to see his master.

@Trutharchivist in regards to your point about Kelsier/Ghostbloods behavior towards non-members, you're definitely right there But the point i thought you were going to add about Mraize and the roshar faction is they are clearly stated to be a bit rogue and off the reservation versus HQ on Scadrial. Iyatils brother makes a comment that her cell has been a bit extreme and going a bit off the reservation of their normal protocols and norms. So we cant take her and Mraizes actions with Lift and Raboniel and their murderous side missions as the norm. From what we've seen of Shai, the aether user and the rest in lost metal, they're pretty reasonable and not sinister. The only real morally grey concerning comment was Shai talking about the Sets discovery of non-fatal hemalurgy..but honestly, everyone's got a percentage of preservation, snapping them just tips them over the edge..so being able to access the small chunks and coalesce it together in one person non lethally is actually a pretty huge discovery, more like breaths, and possibly even heading towards unkeyed Dor for accessible investiture. I saw that more like an operation paper clip thing, make use of the data and science even if it was achieved through dubious or outright morally repugnant methods, so it wasn't a total waste. But yeah, so far the main faction is just a pro Scadrial larger reaching kelsiers crew. Honestly I think everyone always reads too much into WOBs about Kel and only being heroic in that setting, he definitely had flaws and a lot of chaotic Ruin in him, but secret history he comes a long way, genuinely cares about fuzz, the planet and the bigger picture Now sure, this is centuries later, cognitive shadows definitely get mental health issues and we don't know if there's any ramifications of his new body and spike..but his discussion with Sazed at the end wasnt really that ominous or sinister, he just said they need to advance and get tech to face autonomy and the larger cosmere, and he doesn't think sazeds non-interference policy/prime directive is worth risking their people. The only hints we have of future scadrian actions are in First of the dusk and the intro of 2 where they do come across a bit shady, but that could also just be like elendel government in era 2, a bit rust and separate motivations from the hero factions

A few notes, it's not just being invested that makes it hard to worldhop, most worldhoppers we know are highly invested haha..i mean Hoid has maxed out skill trees from 6 different magic systems we know of. Demoux is an atium misting, Galladon is a full blown Elantrian, the Ire, obviously Shai can forge as we see here, and two different feruchemists and a Kandra on Roshar. It's just specifically cognitive shadows, like the Heralds or Kel, they're intrinsically linked to their planet, remember Kel felt the tether pulling him again when he went out to where the Ire were on the border. We don't know if it's just an issue of connection or what, but like you said also affects those with a Nahel bond (though WoB has implied it would be possible to figure out a way to get it to work, otherwise Hoid is screwed, and the sixth of the dusk 2 preview showed a skybreaker off world) Returned like Vasher are the exception, not the rule, WoB clarified that Endowment basically hacked the system so the normal rules don't apply, but he still could only use stormlight to stay alive replacing breaths, until the row scene showed he could start awakening like Viv. Clearly they've made big strides with the unkeyed Dor, and I'm sure once he gets Shai back to herself to get the Intel, the trick for non lethal hemalurgy will be huge, to swipe some of the innate Allomancy in all of the humans, snapped or not. I'm with you though, still unclear on the plan, why give up the bands, especially if he has no powers? Was he behind the malwish gambit to recover them from elendel? How would transported spheres help his condition..? If he's already tethered to a body, what's the next step to fully recover? Also, it does explain why Honorblades contain the powers, and are free for anyone to use, similar to the medallions, for the Heralds in a similar situation..gives them abilities they don't have innately m, but they can still have a spren bond, in Nales case Maybe they could combine hemalurgy with unkeyed medallions, have one blended spike with all 8 powers to make you Mistborn (and avoid multiple spikes letting a future Discord control you) One detail though, Iyatils brother does say her and Mraize are going a bit off script, so the Roshar faction isn't fully representative of them as a whole. Everyone loves to demonize Kel based on the wob saying he could have been evil without the goal, but at the end of the day he does care about scadrial and loved Vin and his crew, definitely don't see them being a villain faction, and he made fair points to Sazed, obviously as harmony he's thinking big picture for civilizations growth and considering prime directive stuff, but with autonomy and odium out there, some rapid development is unavoidable and already necessary. Also still curious about his line to the gang while he was on the airship, definitely implied he could steelpush over there but he was over water, is that just BSing to keep up appearances, or can he use a medallion?

Kel not being Mistborn as a cognitive shadow made me curious, guess that's why heralds oathblades have their powers built in as unkeyed surgebinding anyone can use.. But makes him surrendering the bands make even less sense, unless they didn't work for him, but if he hid them to use in the future idk why he left clues for the southern Scadrians, but obviously one of his usual gambits haha. Even a month later the implications of unkeyed Dor still has me so curious, definitely seems like era 3 and 4 will have no problem using abilities from any planet, a team of people with forgers and medallions could basically do anything. Maybe that's why honor made the nahel bond so binding haha, cultivation warned him to not let access to just anyone. Once they figure out a converter to utilize Stormlight to power anything, building on what Vasher is doing it'll be huge. Although.. If those were skybreakers helping at the docks at the end we know spren can go off world. I guess we already knew that judging by the shardbearer spaceman in fifth dusk 2 preview. I also didn't think the Set had some new spike, just a new, less intrusive method, i mean they've done more research in the field than anyone on the planet ever has haha, makes sense they've made a leap forward to non lethal spiking. I mean we know the person getting spiked isn't injured and the organs move out of the way, could be a similar thing if they aren't snagging an entire ability, just a small chunk of preservation. Wob explained the mist snapping was taking people who were at 35/40% of the way there and just pushing them past 50% to gain Allomancy. So theoretically you can just siphon some of that off from even non allomancers..5-6 people and boom you have one new misting.

Haha well, as a counter, the graphic audio is absolutely great for that scene. It's rayse but with an odd effect to it and some of taravangians twang. Honestly once you get used to the characters having actual voices having one guy do all of them just feels stunted, especially hamming it up that much..the GA he just seems like rayse being slightly odd. Lopen, Wayne, done so damn perfectly, and obviously Wit. But yeah, even after the years it's got like multiple layers to it, the first time you think Todium has the total upper hand, but then wits dialogue makes you wonder if it's a double blind.. Honestly, considering he was fooled by the pen earlier we know he's not infallible, and hed have no clue Rayse died..but i also agree with others that he specifically had x amount of breaths to detect tampering, he probably knows later he was bamboozled haha..i think Todium needed a win after rayse got owned so many times, and it's an ominous epilogue to have wit himself get wombled, but by the next book i totally expect he learned something/did something to get an upper hand or angle. What's hilarious is it wasn't even anything too intelligent or sneaky that tipped him off, just being slightly calm and curious, not pure passion and anger. After all his positioning to go after rayse, the letters to frost, it's odd he would just never get an actual encounter or clash with him, but I'm guessing that won't go to waste, it'll actually contribute to the threat of Todium when he explains he's 1000 times more dangerous now, especially before being consumed by the intent

Haha as i said, the mention of avatar last week pretty much outright confirmed it, and now we know for sure. But i do agree, the "invasion from other planets" could still be odium and Roshar, men of red and gold. Autonomy could be softening the planet up so either they or odium could take out poor harmony. I also concur that we won't fully find out autonomys motivations in the book, they'll foil this plan, but definitely going to be setting up the stage for era 3 and post 5 stormlight.

So I'm confused, everyone's debating the classic odium or autonomy question we've had for years..but everyone seems to have just breezed right past the confirmation? He specifically said Trell was seeking new avatars..that's Bavadin. It's 100% autonomy haha. Avatars are kind of their whole thing, as much as mists were Leras. Weve always had the two clues, the metal in Lessie was from a shard we'd seen before at the time, which everyone narrowed down to autonomy, and the red color of the mist encroaching on the planet. Don't get me wrong, red and gold is definitely odium, there's the WoB where he mentions the color themes, cultivation is green, honor is blue white, and odium is red gold. But the snag was red is also just corrupted investiture, as well as autonomy. The vague warning was either the ash or odium will be coming to destroy you, the threats coming. they worked together to beat Dominion and Devotion but autonomy was next on odiums list, makes sense he'd also make a play, Brandon said hes scared of harmony at least until he learns of his crippling dualistic bindings, if there's going to be a clash he'd want to take out the loser or assist the winner But just from a meta perspective, it makes no sense to build up this mysterious threat for a decade if it's just the same threat Roshar has.. Plus, harmony is completely clueless about its source as of BoM, but we know from his correspondence with Hoid he was aware of Rayse/Odium and how significant a threat it was to the other shards. He also says he'd love to meet Hoid to speak further, and considering autonomy & endowments replies were completely dismissive, I'm pretty sure Hoid is DEFINITELY going to go chat with Sazed about it ASAP, since it's the only shard thats friendly with him, not to mention a unique new dual shard. So when we see the red mist encroaching on the planet, i feel like Sazed would at least get a line telling Wax like i may have an idea what we face, I've been warned, etc, but he's totally blind. But yeah, avatars. That's specific wording, sure invested hosts working for a shard could technically be that, but it's the wording that's pretty clear. (Also to the earlier commenter talking about cognitive shadows being bound to their planet like Kel, Vasher is the exception, Endowment hacked the magic system so Returned are exempt from that rule, unlike Kel or the Heralds