Immortal Platypus

because I'm sick of having this argument and it doesn't fit in the context of the thread. ok, but Kal is Alethi and follows Vorinism. and most people don't know he's a Herald. And even if they did, just because people worship something doesn't make it divine.

I disagree, son of Tanavast seemingly refers to the Vessel (at least to me), not the Shard. It implies more of a personal relationship with Tanavast than a personal relationship with the Shard Honor. That's kind of what I mean by it's not complete. It needs more explanation, but it's not naturally a bad argument if that makes sense. It doesn't prove Kaladin isn't heroic, but it does show that simply saying he meets x characteristic doesn't make him so.

careful using info from emberdark, it's not allowed here without spoilers. (at least, I don't think the spoiler period is up yet)

it's not confirmed, but it is oft speculated and somewhat implied, and she is very highly invested. Treamayne's post on this thread covers the idea pretty well. Like, more invested than Heralds. even if she's not a splinter of Virtuosity (I swear I saw something about that, but can't find it now), she's still highly enough invested I'd say her connection to divinity is stronger than Kal's If you're going to say that the Heralds are gods, that undermine's your earlier point that Vorinism is Monotheistic. Which is it? Also, that doesn't prove he was resurrected. and I also wouldn't describe Kel as a god. I'm done, you can have the last word. Agree to disagree. Then provide a storming definition that suits your point. You can't just say they aren't something without providing evidence. also, it comes from the Greek word meaning "choose" not subset, assuming we're still talking about heretic. you're right, I forgot about that. do we have confirmation on why he's called that? I see a problem for certain people, but I think we see different problems. I see an argument that wasn't fully completed, that's the problem I see.

yes, another slightly earlier Adolin quote says so. WAT 1230

an interesting idea, you might be right. Fortunately, there's no need for the eyeslit so this wouldn't come into play minor correction: what we see in the book is transparency exclusively from the inside, but it's quite possible that they could make the Plate translucent from the outside too.

she's more divine that Kal, being a splinter (piece) of Virtuosity (a god). I have read it. In fact, I have it open right now. The closest thing is becoming a Herald, which is significantly different. I cannot tell what that means actually, what we teach is that matter and intelligence are both eternal, and that God created the universe by shaping it. Again, we don't believe in creation ex nihilo, which is different from denying God is the uncaused cause. Again, I could use the same logic in the opposite way. I'll demonstrate: I'm just pointing out the facts. I have nothing against other Christians, but I do object to you trying to change the definition of my religion to exclude me. See? Again, this is a major part of why I'd still like to agree to disagree. you never provided a definition to reject. But I will say that definitonally, Hindus are heretics. Colloquially? No, but definitionally yes. you're right, I know very little. I do know that they were exactly the most peaceful thing the church has ever done. And I didn't say Christianity was particularly violent, but they don't need to be, they just need to be somewhat violent in order to meet the criteria you provided.

1. no, the keyword there is possible. That means it could happen, so at some point the mistborn is going to get a big surprise when their push-line just disappears. I also wonder what effects that would have on the mistborn/coin/other anchor because if the steel-lines are manifest on the SR, then killing that manifestation would likely have some effect. My guess is it would be primarily to the anchor and not the Mistborn, but who knows? 2. for that to work, you'd have to keep a coppercloud up around the entire fight, including at the very beginning. From the OP, it seemed to me that both appear, ready to go. For example, the Unoathed has their armor on and Blade out, while the Mistborn has already consumed their metals and neither are surprised at the other one. It's unfair to say that the Mistborn would be ready with their metals while saying the Unoathed wouldn't be ready with their toolkit. In addition, it seemed to me that the general consensus there is that it wouldn't stop shards from manifesting, especially not living ones. 3. it might have some, but trace metals are hard to push on and get any sort of powerful thrust from 4. The armor likely helps with minor (or even major) wounds, and before you get to that point you have to crack and shatter the plate, and good luck with that without using duralumin (which makes you much more vulnerable). the closest we've seen is Nightblood chipping an honorblade, but if the Mistborn could push a coin against the shardblade hard enough they might be able to disarm the Unoathed temporarily. I think the dimensions of one of the bullets might even be too big to fit through the eye slit, depending on how big it is and how big the bullets are. Eye slits are depicted as very narrow, and we are talking about relatively primitive guns. Also, it is confirmed that living/Unoathed Plate doesn't need the eye slit. from Adolin POV WAT page 1230

Which of the three would you say she has? I'm assuming divinity, but I remember someone disputing that, so I'm curious. Anyway, Kaladin wasn't resurrected, he didn't die. He's no more divine than any common man on Roshar, unless I dramatically misunderstand things. Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread, Brandon has said that Christ was not an inspiration. As I said, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't find it polite of you to use a term that I have told we prefer to not be called, nor do I find it polite for you to tell me what I believe. We do believe in the divinity of God as the uncaused cause, we don't believe in creation ex nihilo. Those are different. We do not reject the divinity of Christ, we perceive it in a different method than you do. That doesn't inherently make us wrong. Using your same reasoning here, I could say that all other faiths are not Christian because they believe that the Trinity is one being, not three, and say that because we're talking about Christianity I'm using a Christian definition and not a pagan one. I can say that because I see myself as Christian. Do you see why it's hard to say to someone else "you are not a Christian,"? I would like to agree to disagree here, because you will not convince me that I am not a Christian, and I doubt I will convince you I am, especially not in an effective manner, nor does this topic fit in this thread. you can't just reject a definition, if you do so, you must provide an alternative definition. In a spoiler below, I'll list several more definitions, which support my position. I would encourage you to find some that support yours (Dictionary.com does, but only their definition 1), or come up with your own. The same is true of your line of reasoning for apostate. I have attached more definitions for that as well, and none indicate they cannot still be of the same culture. I also believe she states that she covers her safe hand to save time and avoid people gawking all the time, but I'm not certain. 1. True, but so are Islam and Judaism 2. Christianity is, but so is Islam and Judaism. Collectively, those make up the majority of religions. Also, points one and two feel like the same point. 3. I feel confident saying that Brandon doesn't believe that churches were corrupt and evil 4. again, I feel confident that Brandon doesn't believe that 5. well, that one is somewhat accurate historically, if you consider the crusades 6. obsessing with honor/Oaths is part of Alethi culture, not just vorinism, you'll note it's significantly less important in other places. in addition, where in Christianity are people obsessed with honor/Oaths? In my church we have covenants which are somewhat comparable, but IDK about other churches, and you already said you don't consider my church Christian. 7. I don't know how accurate that is to Christianity, but I feel like that's something that's fairly common across many religions or stories.

That's an interesting point, and to me seems the most likely. I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to talk to their Radiant, but could to some random people, so I think it has to be something with the fifth ideal (or maybe something relating to the order of KR?)

agreed I somewhat disagree. The voidbringers were portrayed as rampaging monsters, and then because people thought that the singers were voidbringers, they thought they were too. However, we could see different examples of singer behavior: Alethis attacked, but the Thaylens started sailing and the Azish basically filed a complaint. I don't think that's fallacious. I think that argument is taking a different point of view to help prove a point, the point being that simply protecting the weak and needy doesn't make you a hero. It doesn't show that Kaladin isn't a hero, but it does show that simply defending the weak and needy isn't the only reason why. In the future, if you could quote where you're responding to me, that will make it much easier on my end. What three components would those be? I seem to recall a list of 10, and if it's one of those, you'll have to specify which. The other thing is that the point is that the similarities could be applied to any number of religions, the same is true of Kaladin! We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (or Mormons, but we prefer to not go by that) are Christians. He's also very clearly not ignorant, especially if you read his books. If you're talking about Jasnah, I believe she is both an apostate and a heretic, she meets the Merriam-webster definition for apostasy ": an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith" and the Merriam-Webster definition for heresy 1. "adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma" and 2. "dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice". I don't think the tropes he borrows contribute to Vorinism looking like Christianity, as I don't think they look similar in the first place.

yes, if you knew about plate in advance. I could see that being useful, but you're still not going to be heavy enough to throw around the Unoathed, and chains will only restrict their movement so much. It would, however, be better than nothing.

That is how most people interpret them, but not everyone. yes, and so because we now have updated knowledge we need rely on the outdated knowledge no longer. they were showing that it's easy to put some characteristics similar to Jesus and map them to a lot of characters, in this case, kaladin. I don't understand why you say they had fallacious reasoning.

I think the clearest way to say it would just be to add a little bit at the end of the second sentence saying "and Odium is splintered", pictured below for reference

I think that Radiant plate could probably also warn it's wearers, and if we haven't seen it (I can't recall), I would guess it just hasn't been necessary.

technically not, he said the Vessel was dead (which is different). I think the assumption made is that Odium is splintered, but he's technically right.

For the record, like Brandon, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and nothing @Returned said in his post clarifying his position about your reasons 1-3 and 8-10 violates our doctrine, and I couldn't find anything major in there that we disagree on from other Christian religions. Also for the record, we don't deny the trinity, we disagree with the way other churches conceptualize it, and while we believe that there can be other gods, we only worship one and believing you could become a god wasn't something that was just invented by our church, the idea dates back to very early Christianity and traces from the Bible. For example, in 2 Peter 1:4 Paul teaches that Christ has given us "great and precious promises" and that we can "be partakers of the divine nature". He also teaches in Romans 8:17 that we are "joint-heirs with Christ". I could go on with biblical examples, but I'd like to share examples from early Church theologians. Irenaeus taught that Christ "did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself," and Clement of Alexandria wrote "the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." again, there are more of these, but I'd prefer to not derail the thread, and I think this is plenty to prove my point. Well, the Voidbringers and Singers are different, at least to me. Voidbringers are the Fused, the sometimes crazy ones, and several do seemingly want to destroy Roshar. Singers, however, are just the same as they were before. I don't think that's quite a fair comparison, but you are right about Brandon liking to subvert tropes. Brandon is not an ignorant non-Christian, so I'm not sure what this means. I think that's kind of the point. She obviously isn't God/Jesus, and the point is that Kaladin isn't either.

even if they have anchors, the weight is a huge issue. The mistborn/wax could literally kill themselves trying to push the Unoathed they weigh so much. You seem to be forgetting that all the force that Pushing still follows newton's 3rd law, that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Say the Mistborn has a building behind them they're using to anchor themselves, and say they also have a coin pushed on the Unoathed's chest that they're using to try to throw them around with. It's not as though the building itself is Pushing on the coin, all the force needs to come from the Mistborn, meaning their body needs to be able to sustain the massive amount of force that the Unoathed is taking. My explanation of this was really poor, so sorry if you don't understand it, but the basic idea is that by the time the Mistborn has enough force to meaningfully move the Unoathed, that same force would crush them. They don't have anywhere near the mass to sustain a push like that. Also, I'd still like to hear your ideas for how the Mistborn is going to consistently push the Unoathed? I still think it can't be lodging, so it would have to be just pushing a coin (or several) against the chest and pinning it there with a Push. I still don't think this works, as the coins would largely have to be centered which is hard to do, and then if the Unoathed turns to the side the coins fly off, possibly irretrievably because the Mistborn can't pull them through the Unoathed. It would be harder in practice, but with the guiding of a sprenblade, I think it's possible. I don't think they're getting hit in the chest with enough force for it to matter without the Mistborn killing themselves.

I looked through every WOB with the "stormlight" tag, and there were no WOBs that say that. In fact, there was only one that mentioned strength at all. I did however, find one not tagged with "stormlight", but from my POV it also seems to support the position that stormlight enhances strength. I don't think there's a world where the Mistborn tricks an Unoathed into rearragning their armor into an inferior setup. How would they even do that? The Unoathed knows they need to protect the vitals, anything else they can potentially sack. again, the person was distracted, and I'm still pretty sure Unoathed/living Plate can seal the eye slit and they can still see. not a chance. Even if he got buried under a building, his tool kit gets him out easy. and if he got trapped, Wax would also be trapped. Plus, where in the world is this building coming from, they're fighting in an arena of sorts. also, please see my retort against wax's metalminds/chances in a fight below. Pewter burning is confirmed to be 2x strength with flaring at 3x. 1. Where is he supposed to lodge a coin? in the chinks in the Plate? Those don't exist. Pin it against the Unoathed's chest? All he has to do is slice through the allomantic line with his Blade (accidentally or intentionally, and I bet if he does it once, the blade spren will be able to tell that it killed/damaged something (though that is entirely unsupported by evidence, it just feels to me like something that would happen)) or turn in a circle because Plate blocks allomantic lines. I'm sure there are other ways to stop that too. 2. He won't be able to throw the Unoathed around repeatedly, especially not without throwing himself around. He needs to give himself a ton of weight to be equal to the Unoathed, let alone heavier, let alone heavier enough to casually throw around the Unoathed. Feruchemy gives diminishing returns, so he's going to burn through his stores really, really, really fast. Depending on the size/number/fullness of his metalminds, he might not even be able to throw the Unoathed effectively once. Remember, even if he can throw the Unoathed, unless he significantly outweighs them (which is really hard) he's also going flying, and he doesn't have anywhere near the protection that Plate offers.

when did he push tracemetals, I don't remember that at all? And correct me if I'm wrong, when he was soothing the entire city, wasn't that aided by his "soothing stations" around the city? He has tremendous power, but I do think that it sometimes gets exaggerated. Also, I edited it into my last post a minute or so ago, so I assume you didn't see it, so I'll just reask the question here. Does the Mistborn get restocks? I got the impression from the first post they didn't, but I haven't followed the whole thread. If so, how many vials of each metal do they have?

to be fair, while I agree with the idea that even with duralumin, Plate and Blade are unPushable, that's not quite what the WOB says. It's up to a matter of interpretation. Just because someone with Well of Ascension level strength could do it doesn't mean that someone with less power couldn't. (I will admit, this interpretation is a major stretch.) I also don't know if we have a really definitive amount that duralumin increases power by. It uses all their steel, so if they had enough, I think there's a feasible way that it might be able to push Plate, though it certainly wouldn't be worth it. Even if they got a Push off, it would probably barely move the Unoathed due to how weak of a push it would be, and then the Mistborn needs to restock steel before they can try anything. Kaladin killed a shardbearer with dead Plate, true. The problem with this analysis is several-fold: 1. Kaladin is John Stormlight, he has a nifty thing we call plot armor. The Mistborn here doesn't 2. The way he killed the Shardbearer was using the eye-slit. IIRC, the Unoathed's armor can seal the eye slit, just like a Radiant's Plate 3. One person doing something one time is a poor way to prove something is likely. Is it possible, given a certain chain of events that the Mistborn could win? Certainly. That's not what you're arguing for, however. You're saying they can win consistently. I would put money of the Shardbearer killing Kal 9 times out of 10. 4. (this one I'm not certain on, but IIRC) Kaladin had the element of surprise and the Shardbearer was surrounded by distractions. The Mistborn doesn't have that 5. Wax would be absolutely screwed if he fought an Unoathed pre-Lerasium, especially if you take away his gun. I don't see any win-con, especially if the Unoathed helmet's eye-slit can seal with them still being able to see. He wouldn't have any of the pewter/duralumin advantages a Mistborn has, and F-Iron does not make up for that. Also, @Frustration, does the Mistborn get restocks? I got the impression from the first post they didn't, but I haven't followed the whole thread. If so, how many vials of each metal do they have?

For the record, I think your system of classifying people is interesting, and considering that you hold modern what-I-would-call-Rosharans (people living on Roshar whose ancestors are from Ashyn) responsible for the crimes of prior generations, the ones actually from Ashyn (please correct me if I'm wrong about that), it makes sense that that would be how you think of them. On a somewhat related note, I would like to posit that the worlds in the cosmere are also connected, in a very similar way to our continents, but on a larger scale and longer timeframe (that will make more sense momentarily). You speak of continents joining and splitting but still resting on the same mantle. The parallel in terms of worlds is that at some point thoughout the cosmere, assuming it follows a trajectory somewhat similar to our universe (which is, admittedly a large assumption), the planets, or the matter that makes them up, will shift and perhaps collide with one another, eventually separating off and creating new planets that will still rest in the same "mantle", in this case, the space-time continuum. As for the seas and oceans, the CR has a somewhat similar effect, with Scadrial's manifesting as a literal ocean (IIRC) and Roshar's manifesting as a sea of beads. Even without that, without technology, the seas are just as uncrossable as space, and with eventual technology, space is also (presumably) crossable. As for the sun, there's not a great parallel, but you could say that light from the same stars is present on the majority of the planets. As for water/air cycles, while they might not move in those current states, it does seem plausible to me that there will be matter that changes planets, even if it is one or two atoms at a time. So on Earth where, it would take decades, centuries, or thousands of years for many of these events to happen, it would take thousands, millions, perhaps billions of years in the cosmere - a different timeframe for a larger scale. I don't intend this to be argumentative, it's just something I thought of when I read your post, and I thought it worth sharing. On a completely unrelated note, @Aliroz-The-Confused, I'd like to apologize for any rudeness and/or unkindness I exhibited towards you. I certainly wasn't the nicest at times, particularly at the beginning of our conversation, and I'm sorry about that. If I had any negative effect on your mental state, please forgive me, it was not my intention.

it heals passively, but not at a fast enough rate to matter. The fight will be over (either one is dead or the Mistborn is out of metals) by the time pewter heals anything important. I think Unoathed plate is kind of a cross? It doesn't regenerate using the wearers stormlight (like true living plate) but it doesn't stop functioning without Stormlight (like dead plate). I do think a mistborn has a small chance. They would need to close the distance, and dodge the shardblade for long enough to Duralumin Pewter punch the chestplate and break it (if it doesn't break it, I think they're screwed, unless it puts it on the verge of breaking). Then the need to get the heck out of there, and try to push/pull a coin through the Unoathed's now-exposed chest. Unoathed don't have healing, so, that should work fine. Outside of that situation, I don't see a great win-con