Returned

He'd be a good choice of the main characters to do this, if we were forced to pick one, and I can see some nice symmetries between Kaladin and what we know of Taln. I do think that Kaladin's tendencies towards self-sacrifice and bearing suffering for others are going to be a major thing to close out SA5. But I remain skeptical that the Oathpact is going to be re-forged, certainly not like it was. It's just not really a solution to any of Roshar's or the Cosmere's problems, especially with the Everstorm in the mix. And, worst of all, Odium and the Singers have a method for just eliminating Oathpact members anyways. I think it's a lot more likely that we're moving towards something new, not just a restoration of the old solutions that already failed.

I think that the bigger issue is that the type of spren is important to making a fabrial do a specific thing. You need a flamespren for a heating fabrial, which is powered by Stormlight to actually make heat; a gravitationspren wouldn't produce the same effect. It seems clear that usually something in the physical realm draws a spren, like flamespren appearing near a fire. Fabrials use Stormlight and a captured spren to work things in the opposite direction. That is, it's not just convenient Investiture and the right metals that make a fabrial work, it is Investiture and properties of Cosmere-important metals which cause a captured idea of heat (or the exothermal properties of a sufficiently rapid oxidation-reduction reaction, if you want to get really precise, as I imagine some posters will!) to manifest physical heat. I'm not sure how you remove the cognitive aspect from the equation while still having fabrial-style technology. I don't think that Awakening a sprenless gemstone with a Command like "generate heat" is going to do it. Something I've been increasingly interested in, and which I suspect we'll see in the back five SA books, is how spren and the Cognitive Realm respond to real-world (or Scadrian) technology. If you build a combustion engine that runs on oil to produce mechanical energy, how do spren react to that, and which ones? Will a change in thinking among people, based on awareness of the technology, cause new spren to manifest, or change properties of existing spren? We'll see, but I think that what we're going to get on Roshar is more "conventional" technology for the most part but which is a component of intricate, Investiture-driven machines. Navani's work will make them pretty efficient and will reduce the need for spren in a lot of ways, and maybe some kind of accord will be reached in which spren take shifts in gemstones or something. We'll also see the Sibling soften in its opposition as its awareness grows through its bond, since it seems fine with Soulcasting (which isn't that different from fabrials in a lot of ways, really, and may be more intrusive to an object. Just not intrusive to a spren).

It enhances, though I don't think we have enough information to say if the enhancement is relative to the wearer or innate to the Plate itself. There is a quote from WoK about your body having to do the work and Shardplate just enhancing the result: Based on this I think that it's more likely that Shardplate enhanced the strength you've got as opposed to something like the loader in Aliens, which has a defined amount of strength and the operator just works some joysticks. There is of course a limit on how much it can add, since we know that sufficient force, like a long fall or holding up a huge weight, can cause the Plate to crack or break. We also hear a few references to things being impressive even for someone in Plate, which wouldn't be the case if Plate offered a flat benefit to everyone. That said, we've mostly only seen Plate on trained soldiers, so we don't have a great set of examples to observe to get a really precise answer.

Non-animal products soulcast into meat would be vegan: no animals were involved in any way in producing it. It would probably not be vegetarian, but that depends on how you think about it (like, if you don't eat meat for nutritional reasons soulcast meat would still have the things you're avoiding). Animal products soulcast into grain would not be vegan. It could be vegetarian, again depending on how you think about it (if you don't eat meat for ethical reasons, an animal was still slaughtered to make a steak that was soulcast into grain). Chouta can be made of all kinds of stuff. It may have meat in it, or it may not. I'm not sure we've seen any non-meat chouta, but as far as I recall it isn't defined as a meat-containing dish. But if the ingredients of a chouta follow the above guidelines, it could be vegetarian and/or vegan.

The alternate explanation is Sja-Anat could have corrupted the radiant spren, but I don't think she could back when Honor was still alive and Mishram was free. No support for this just my guess. I think Radiants were afraid of her back in the day because she could corrupt the secondary armor spren. It's also possible that whoever (possibly not even a Truthwatcher) left that record foresaw events through more mundane means, like logical deduction. But we know so little about Truthwatchers, it definitely could be possible that they saw the future at least sometimes.

I don't think that there is something fundamentally evil about seeing the future. It certainly didn't seem that way in, say, Warbreaker. But for humans and near-humans it seems problematic, because Shards can see it both much more easily and also much, much better. So it seems to me that trying to work with your own glimpse of the future when working directly against a Shard is sort of like trying to navigate with only a fragment of a map. When someone working against you knows so much more it's maybe relatively easy to nudge you in directions which, while consistent with what you've seen, ultimately fit into a plot that serves them more than you. They see the forest, and all the while you're thinking that you're in control because you've got such a good view of a tree a ways down the path.

I think that the points made in this thread about complacency are accurate. But one of the under-emphasized points is that TLR's plan against Ruin depends on attention not settling on the Pits too much. Only TLR and Ruin even know that atium matters for more than the imperial economy, whether it's for pseudo-immortality or keeping Ruin's power in check. Even among the most knowledgeable people in the Final Empire, the destruction of the Pits would have indicated an inconvenience for TLR for a couple of centuries. Economic control of the nobility was convenient for him, but far from the only way he could control his people. TLR almost certainly had enough atium around to sustain him for a couple of centuries if needed (his plans for Ruin were so deep and careful, a couple caches of atium only he knew about would be trivial to arrange). He could also have probably gotten some from the Trust if he really, really needed it. And, as others have pointed out, he was both expecting to gain access to the Well of Ascension again very shortly, and who knows what he could accomplish regarding the Pits and his own mortality then? And even with that, he was still planning for his own death. Ruin knew as much as there was to know about atium and its significance to the world, as well as knowing TLR very well. A reaction to the Pits being destroyed that was stronger than the above suggest would have accomplished nothing besides to give Ruin clues about the one thing TLR wanted most to keep secret from him.

Thanks, @Nameless! That's a bit I'd glossed over. Very interesting... I'd been thinking in terms of being bound by the Radiant oaths, which presumably still applied, but the Bondsmiths' surges in particular had other restrictions imposed directly by Honor. And since Ashyn, no less! Honor must have locked that down immediately upon humans' arrival on Roshar. Before Knights Radiant, before Heralds... there is a lot to unpack here.

I'm pretty sure there is a WoB somewhere that describes Honor's death as the result of a direct onslaught by Odium, not an indirect consequence of Rosharan humans changing, becoming less honorable, or undermining him in some way. I'll see if I can dig it up. Further, we know that Honor died defending humanity (from something the Stormfather said), which implies that there was a direct, specific struggle against Odium that led to his demise. One of the biggest things that jumped out at me from your theory is this section: I don't think that this sequence is quite correct, specifically because it seems that the False Desolation wasn't an actual Desolation. We know that, to everyone's surprise, Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow Connected with Singers and allowed them forms of power, but this strikes me as Regals, not Fused. Nothing I've seen suggests that Braize was opened, and we know that Taln was still there holding the line. Instead, the Singers just got some of their surge-wielding forms back and waged a more conventional war. People just called it a Desolation (and even described it as a false one). I will definitely grant, though, that "Honor was changing" (I forget the exact quote and reference) before he died. Something significant happened which led him to focus more on oaths than the meanings behind them, and led him to rave about surges destroying the world. We've got some hints about what changed the Heralds that led them to bend the Oathpact, and we've got some solid information on what caused the Radiants to abandon their oaths. But what might change Honor so drastically? I agree that there is more to Ba-Ado-Mishram than we know. I'm not sure that attribution of Ba-Ado-Mishram to Odium is correct. I mean, Ba-Ado-Mishram is of Odium now, but Sja-Anat says of the Unmade "we were made, and then unmade", and is not of Odium but is "[...] of me. Now, only of me" (Oathbringer, chapter 84, page 817). What does being made, then unmade mean? We can interpret the "now" in the second quote to be that Sja-Anat's switched away from Odium's side, but that's not the same as being "of Odium" in the way that Shallan was describing in their conversation. There is more to this, and I've wondered if the Unmade are powerful spren of Honor and Cultivation, in the vein of the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling, who were then corrupted in some way by Odium. We do know that Odium has his own spren, like those that provide Regal forms for Singers, but the secret of the Unmade is tantalizingly unclear. You don't necessarily need to buy it, as the Recreance was a drawn out event. Also, we have an intriguing epigraph in WoR: There is a lot that is obscure about that section and what it references, but my running interpretation has been that the Skybreakers were working to undermine the other orders. They, perhaps, were behind the Recreance, or at least influenced the other orders towards their ultimate end there. As to the shattering of the Shattered Plains... well, Skybreakers have access to the surge of Division. Just saying... Did he? I might have missed where this is stated or implied, but I'd thought that Melishi was bound to the Sibling. If you have a chance, could you provide a reference for this?

There was also a quote about restoring the spren killed during the Recreance in WoR: It has a bit of extra importance because this is Pattern speaking, and he already knows about Testament. I've undervalued this section in the past, but this thread has made it seem much more important to me. We have a maybe analogous situation with Syl and Kaladin (it's not clear she was dead in the same way that spren involved in the Recreance were). But Testament's knight still lives, and Adolin and Maya have shown that rehabilitation of deadeyes is possible. I wonder what it would mean to have two bonded spren, especially for a Lightweaver since their oaths could be different for each.

I think that a really major issue which impacts the thinking I've seen in this thread is that the contest of champions is going to be the only "climax" conflict in SA5. I do not think this will be the case. Especially since SA5 will finish the whole first section of SA we're in for an epic, action-packed climax which involves pretty much everyone, not unlike the end of Oathbringer. So ideas of "X character needs to be involved in the contest because leaving them out will be bad for narrative reasons" seems too limiting to me, especially since we don't even know exactly what the contest will be. The contest itself is either going to be irrelevant somehow, or it's going to be part of a massive series of events. Any major character not involved in the contest directly is going to have something similarly important and exciting going on elsewhere. No one is going to get short shrift in the climax of SA Phase 1. I've outlined elsewhere on the forum why I think the contest can't be decisive anyways, and so from my perspective it's a lot less important if the best-suited characters are involved at all or even if the contest takes place as Dalinar intends. So simply that a character has been a "main" character so far doesn't seem like a strong argument to me all on its own.

There is a lot of potential overlap. I think that the major difference between acquiring lots of Breaths and the others is that it's passive (differs from the Lord Ruler's method), self-sustaining (differs from the Returned, who need to keep getting more Breaths), and doesn't require you to become a cognitive shadow (differs from the Heralds). Hoid, of course, has his own thing going on and all that we know about his immortality is that it differs from the other approaches we've seen. I'm not sure how they'd interact, exactly, if they offer the same benefits. Hoid seems to manage balancing them somehow, so at least the Breaths aren't (seemingly) consumed to fuel surgebinding or anything. If abilities can compound, like in Mistborn, then we'll really see some striking effects.

That's a pretty interesting idea! I wonder if a Command and Intent could be found that would cause it to operate naturally. Awakened objects usually have minds of their own on fulfilling their purposes, and even the Lifeless require verbal prodding to do things. Imagine having something like Nightblood, but as your hand or leg!

We just don't have very many examples of Awakened items with sentience to judge what would make one more sedate versus more active. Vivenna may have an idea, given her sword's apparently different behavior relative to Nightblood. Awakening itself is very finnicky and we see even Vasher refining specific Commands within Warbreaker as he tries to get them just right. Possibly a longer, more complex command influencing how much the object would talk might help ([Command related to purpose] only when I ask and otherwise be silent). But we just don't know. Plus it may not be ideal to give an object power and sentience but subjugate it in such a way. Again though, we don't really know how this kind of entity thinks, feels, or exists. I'm not sure that Nightblood becomes more eager with more consumed Investiture. Certainly right after he consumes a lot he gets sluggish. But he also shows capacity for growth, which Vasher was certain is impossible for an Awakened object; he flatly rejects the idea that Nightblood might be different in Warbreaker than when he was first Awakened. As above we don't have many examples of anything other than a natural-born person gaining more and more Investiture, so the effects of that aren't clear. I'm not sure that Nightblood is frustrated that he can't act on his own to "destroy evil" though. He definitely wants to fulfill his Command, however it is that he's conceiving of evil, but he's also a sword and wants to be used as one. Even at his most autonomous (being partially drawn), only "evil" people are motivated to use him and they then destroy nearby "evil", as well as themselves-- it doesn't seem to be anything that he consciously does, but more a feature of what he is. I suspect we'll learn more about the cognitive aspects of Awakened objects in future books, but as long as he thinks of himself as a sword I think he's content to be a sword, with all that implies.

I don't mind the large cast of main characters in general. I think that they have interesting stories, and as long as they have enough screen time for them to develop I'm ok, even if I don't like all characters an equal amount. It's reasonable that not every major plot event or worldbuilding detail needs to happen around the same 3-5 people. I like it less when characters get reduced to something instantly recognizable but shallow, just to have them on-screen and showing their characteristics. My main example of this is Lift, whom I like a lot as a character, but if all she does is hear some exposition and say something about eating others' dinner she's not really there as a character at all, just a prop. These don't seem to have come up all that much so far though, at least in my estimation. Where it's more of an issue for me is big, flashy sequences where a lot of the characters participate at once. It's always going to be hard to do because it makes the sequences more complicated and slower to play out since you need so many different perspectives. But the issue is that every character needs to get their due, which can tip things towards the overdramatic and written with a heavier hand; every character needs to get a moment to strike a cool pose, say some cool lines, and do some flashy, cool thing. I'm totally onboard for that generally, but when it happens 6-8 times within the same sequence the pacing slows to a crawl and each character's own moment feels a bit less special. The battle at Thaylenah in Oathbringer is so far the biggest example of this in the books, and RoW managed to shy away from it by splitting the characters (and the events they dealt with) up into totally separate pieces.

My feeling is that it's not inaction but rather the kind of action the Shard engages in. Odium has spent thousands of years in a campaign to destroy the other Shards, leaving himself as the unchallenged and unchangeable deity in all of the Cosmere. That forces the Shards into deadly conflicts with one another, whatever the others may wish. War may not be focused on the destruction of all other Shards in the way that Odium has been which could end the deadly conflict that has been playing out so far. Aside from Autonomy and Odium, the Shards seem mostly content to exist and operate within their respective domains. If War is similar then things might be more action-packed for Roshar but quiet in the rest of the Cosmere. If War is still interested in taking out other Shards then things might be worse everywhere.

Welcome! We're in a similar boat, and I look forward to hearing your ideas and perspectives.

I've also been thinking that the only real solution to Odium is to combine it with another Shard. There is some evidence that Odium itself was averse to this, not just Rayse, but who knows if Taravangian could overwhelm that with some other aim. As for planet-generation... maybe? The setup makes some sense, and Investing enough in a planet pins Shards there for quite a while. But would Odium/War fall for this? Being trapped on Roshar is what happened to Odium, and what they've spent millennia trying to escape. Why would they immediately do effectively the same thing? And even if it did happen, there would need to be something to bind Odium/War to the planet so that they couldn't immediately destroy it and leave. Further, I agree that it seems like a stretch (given what we know now) that the back half of SA will involve a totally novel planet with its own geography, people, cultures, possibly magic, etc. mainly as a stalling tactic to draw out the conflict against Odium further. But we'll see, Brandon does well with surprises.

The more I think about this, the more likely it (or something similar) is. At least, a greatly elongated lifespan. We've got examples of others in the Cosmere who avoid aging through sufficient Investiture, like having enough Breaths or undergoing the Shaod. Scadrial-style immortality is more of a tricky use of other powers but might still count. Of course, we can't rule out the technological and magical advances that will come in the intervening decades after RoW. Convenient movement of Investiture, via stormlight-housing gems, and further feruchemical research (especially, but not only, with nicrosil) has the potential to turbocharge different Cosmere magics in ways we haven't seen before. Agelessness could become a pretty common commodity among well-placed people.

I agree; it seems unlikely that it would be a component of Syl and Kaladin's relationship even if it did turn romantic.

Yes, she explicitly does: Even outside of that, all other spren seem to have tangible, physical form in Shadesmar, bonded or otherwise. And we know that honorspren do as well, evidenced by Notum being stabbed nearly to death and honorspren restraining Adolin at his trial. Honorsprens' forms seem to be fixed, such as their clothing being made of their substance. Whether or not they have specific physical features, organs, etc. is unknown, but not really relevant to a relationship having a physical component. As for whether or not she wants a given relationship doesn't seem to ever matter for shipping. Either way, I'm not a fan of the pairing.

I don't really like the idea of them having a romantic relationship (or any spren and bonded knight), though I wouldn't fault anyone for feeling differently. For me, the Radiant/spren relationship is already pretty deep, meaningful, and specifically focused, and it could easily cheapen it to reduce it down to "now they're dating". It also seems iffy to me given that the process of the bond progressing both deals with overcoming traumas (so severe that they're literally cracks in the soul) and how the spren's ability to think and be an individual largely comes from the bond itself, but that's an "in general" sort of thing. I don't think that those issues would bother me much with Syl and Kaladin, specifically; bond aside, they do seem like a good match personality-wise and they get along nicely. All that said, I could see it working. Getting to and from Shadesmar is pretty easy now, most of the time, and they could have a regular physical relationship there. The rest of the time would be more like always being on the phone with each other, which plenty of real relationships do, and romance doesn't absolutely require them to physically be in the same place. If Sanderson decides to move their relationship in that direction I think it could be handled well, and the circumstances of SA right now definitely make it possible. Also relevant:

I think that seems plausible. Do you think that Taravangian's "save them all" comment might have been referring to the Shards, rather than the people of Roshar (and elsewhere)?

Honor was Splintered-- the Shard itself fractured and broken apart specifically so that it could not be taken up by another Vessel. The exact method Odium used to do this is unknown, and not the only way to prevent a Shard from being taken by another.

The general assumptions about why Zahel is on Roshar are that 1.) It's easier for him to live there than elsewhere in the Cosmere (he can siphon Investiture from the Highstorms rather than having to get a Breath every week), and 2.) He's involved in something relating to Nightblood (either finding and taking him again, or making sure that others don't, or something we don't know about at all yet). As for giving Navani his Breaths... I mean, maybe. It would give her perfect pitch, and others have the same benefit through the same means (Hoid, presumably Mraize, Azure). It's not clear how many Breaths he has right now, and if he'd be willing to part with enough of them to do that given current events. He doesn't hoard them, that's for sure! What more do you think Navani might do with perfect pitch? She's already got the Rhythm of War down, and has the plates for some rhythms. Maybe more research into cymatics, or more varied and intricate light manipulation?