Argent

Yeah, I should've known better than to leave a member of Team Sanderson easy out like that. Then again, who knows? Maybe Isaac is not as shifty That's kind of my interpretation. An isolated tree.

This is very much a conversation for another topic, so as someone who has been an atheist for a long time, and has dedicated a good amount of time thinking about stuff and listening to people talk about the stuff they thought about, I'll try to end it with a reply or two. The difference between an atheist and an agnostic is very small. Anyone who tells you definitively that there is no God is a fool - you can't prove a negative. In fact, Jasnah says almost the same thing when Shallan confronts her about the true topic of her research. No, the difference between atheists and agnostics is how much evidence they think they need to say before they admit to the existence of a God; atheists would require more. And even then, it's a gradient - would either one be convinced if they saw an angel-like creature? If they heard a voice they could reasonably confirm was omniscient? If they saw the last of nature seemingly broken by some fantastic being? It is true that atheists tend to be more vocal and assertive about their belief, but that's not what atheism is about - just like religion is not about preaching constantly and trying to convert anyone within earshot. Jasnah is very much not this kind of person - you'll notice that she never brings the topic of the Almighty up first, she only brings her beliefs out when she asked or forced to, or when an underlying premise of the conversation she is a part of leads to assumptions about the divine nature of the Almighty (such as when she and Shallan discuss morality). So I'll confidently disagree with you on any line you try to draw between agnostics and atheists. It's a very murky distinction. I will also confidently disagree with any claim that Jasnah, as a character, is shaped by religion; she is not. It's a part of who she is, more so than it is part of Kaladin, but it's not a defining trait. Certainly not much more than it is for me.

damnation.

Alright, the illustrious Isaac Steward finally got back to me! Busy man, that guy is. I've formatted both my email and his reply in a Q&A kind of form we are mostly familiar with from the various event transcriptions. Also, a link to the map, for easy reference.

I am pretty sure we already have a WoB that silver is silver on Threnody.

This has been my take on the topic pretty much since I saw the WoB. It does sound a little weird, but it looks like all Brandon is saying is that humans can't really bond spren in the way Listeners do.

Something like that, yeah.

Technically we've known this for a while. But yeah, you could probably arrange it so you have a shield of slow time.

Maybe I misspoke. Shards definitely have a strong presence in the Spiritual, but their mind - by definition - resides in the Cognitive. Vin can see the entire world of Scadrial when she Ascends, and Kelsier figures out that while Ruin can do the same, he can only focus on one thing at a time. Location is very much specific to the Cognitive realm, as are minds. So sure, Shards have access to the Spiritual, and they have a lot of access to it, but it's not where their active conscious awareness resides.

Take copper. Memories stored in copper are a charge. The ability to retrieve (or put) those memories is an ability. I was specifically trying to avoid making nicrosil an exception.

But the contexts are obviously different! Siri is being called Vessel because of the belief that she is to be the vessel of the God King's child, there is nothing about Shards and Splinters in this. Arguing that it's related is like arguing that the shards of a broken windshield are worth talking about when discussing the Shards of Adonalsium. It's the same word, doesn't mean it's the same term.

On the contrary, I am using the term exactly as it is presented to us - the mortal bearer of a Shard. It's the only context we have, and I am unwilling to extend the definition without better evidence. Everything I listed previous is in addition to the fact that the only confirmed use of the term is around Shards. At the end of the day it's all opinions anyway. But we can get more technical. I didn't want to go there initially in part because it would require additional speculation - some of which I am comfortable with, but not all. Let's look into the fuzzy terms I've been using. What happens when a Vessel (technically that person is about to become a Vessel, but that's a technicality we can ignore) picks up a Shard? Well, we don't have a great many examples of that, but both Vin and Sazed lose their physical bodies but retain their minds. Their awareness is transferred to the Cognitive realm, where they seem to continue existing without much change - they, or at least Vin, quickly learn how to navigate the Cognitive, but except for this expanded awareness, their minds don't seem to be changed all that much. Certainly not to the dramatic level you would expect from an Ascension. The Spiritual realm, on the other hand, is a much better candidate for the power of the Shard to act in. We already know that investiture is primary Spiritual, and investiture used in the Physical realm makes its way back to the Spiritual where it, once again, becomes a part of the Shard it came from. In addition to this, powers in general come from the Spiritual, so Vin's and Sazed's ability to influence the physical world must be somehow encoded in their now modified sDNA. All this being said, it sounds to me like the Shard, which is mostly pure investiture in the first place, melds with the Vessel's Spiritweb, granting them access to incredible power. Compare that with what happens to the Returned. Their physical body dies, but their mind's journey from the Cognitive to the Beyond is interrupted by Endowment who offers them the choice to come back (not unlike what Harmony does with Wax, actually). Upon choosing to Return, Endowment takes a chunk of her power, what is about to become a Divine Breath, and uses it to somehow stick the mind back in the body. The sDNA of the person does not appear to be (significantly) changed. Yes, their body changes, but that's at least partially a cognitive effect, as the new form they take reflects society's perception of perfection. But they don't get access to new abilities, they don't acquire vast stores of knowledge. The only interesting thing they can do is give up their Divine Breath, and that's already something every Nalthian can do! Yes, theirs has restorative powers, but it is also a lot more potent than a regular Breath, it holds a lot more investiture. In fact, even its healing powers might be not all that special, as they sound to me very similar to the natural healing Stormlight provides, just on a much bigger scale (which is appropriate, given the scale difference). So. Yes, this is an opinion thread, and yes, neither one of us - or anyone here really - has the right answer. But I am not making up arguments to fit my opinion, I have a - what I perceive as - very good reason to be reluctant to call the Returned Vessels in the same way Sazed is a Vessel. Maybe my original phrasing was less than precise, and if so I will admit it as a problem, but I hope I've shown that I've done more thinking about this than I initially displayed. It's just less... user friendly.

I wouldn't. The Divine Breath serves as glue for the Returned's cognitive shadow so it sticks to the body. This is different from how Shards work, I think, because in the latter case the Vessel takes on the power but doesn't use it to use it keep themselves together in any way. Plus, they can use the power, I'd wager up to all of it, without giving up their life.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit? I think I know what you are saying, but I want to try to minimize the chance of us getting the wrong info. On the harmonium... I think I need to sit on the new information for a little bit.

Right. Spool addressed the gist of it, but I'll offer my response as well - partly because your question was to me, but more importantly because sometimes different phrasing is key to understanding one's idea. Yeah. I am always uncomfortable when theories - hypotheses, really - offhandedly refer to WoBs and interpret information as if it is hard facts. I don't post a great many theories primarily because I feel it's a lot of effort to gather all the necessary information and present it in a good enough way. Which is not to say that this particular theory meets my internal criteria, but I was excited enough about the harmonium powering the medallions (in a way), that I wanted to just share it. Yes. Mostly yes. I need to be cautious here because even if you have a system - harmonium or not - that can replicate the effects of Allomancy and Feruchemy, those two magic systems work very differently on a Realmatic level. So even TBoM describe how harmonium interacts with Allomancy exactly correct, we might not be able to extrapolate the details of its interaction with Feruchemy from that. The core of my theory hinges on my interpretation being close enough to the Allomantic interaction to be plausible, but different enough as well. Technically I don't require touch to the harmonium itself (as the primer cubes don't require touch either, not on the receiving end at least). I imagine it sealed inside the medallion, but that's a minor detail. In my interpretation harmonium is storing the effect of the power, it's recording it. A replay of a recorded Steelpush would very similar to the original Steelpush used for the recording - only it would happen from the "point of view" of the primer cube, so its directional vectors would be different. But a recorded nicrosil tap - or any Feruchemical tap - wouldn't be able to work that way, it would require the primer cube to tap the power itself, filling itself with heat, or Connection, or investiture. So I posit that the differences lie in The lifetime of the recording. Allomantic recordings get replayed seconds after the recording. This is likely to have something to do with the power requirements of Allomancy. Feruchemical recordings, however, might last a much longer time - years, probably - because unless a metalmind is being actively tapped or filled, it experiences no change in investiture. The nature of what is being recorded. Recorded Allomantic powers reproduce the original effect in the different area. Recorded Feruchemical powers... well, if you actually record a Feruchemical power, you are just granting someone Feruchemy, that's what the power is. So I believe the primer cubes record the act of tapping or filling a metalmind. When you touch a medallion you are not getting the ability to tap necrosil, you are getting the tap itself. The medallion taps necrosil for you. It's a subtle difference, I know, but a clear one in my head. It's like... it's a little bit like the difference between how a Surgebinder can control their Surges (via a long-lasting ability that they get from their spren) versus how a wielder of an Honorblade can (via the Honorblade itself). Does this make sense? So yeah, it does sound like regular nicrosil Feruchemy - because it mimics its effects. But someone caught in the effect of a primer cube's speed bubble doesn't gain the power to create speed bubbles themselves, they get just the effect. This is 100% in line with what I am saying. I am making the claim that the medallions literally graft the ability to tap nicrosil onto their bearer's soul for as long as they hold the medallion. We agree on this. I think this is where our opinions start to diverge. I agree with what you are saying here, but it sounds like you also think the conversion in the other direction can be performed by anyone (we are ignoring Identity here, assume everything is unkeyed). So turning weight into investiture requires Feruchemical ability, but turning investiture into weight does not? True. Maybe true. Spool touched on the idea of encoded investiture, or flavors of investiture, and I think it's a possible way for the Cosmere to work. And this, of course, is the core of your rebuttal, and it hinges on whether getting something out of a metalmind requires a matching Feruchemical power. If it does, as I believe, then I don't think your idea would work - even if the nicrosilmind already holds the ability to use nicrosil in the form of investiture, you still need to have the ability to tap that metalmind, to withdraww that investiture. Which is the exact problem I am trying to solve with the harmonium. If, on the other hand, anyone can withdraw power from an unkeyed metalmind, because said power is already in the form of investiture, then you would only need the matching Feruchemical power if you wanted to turn that "raw" investiture into something specific, such as weight. Which you say is a non-problem for nicrosil because with nicrosilminds there is no need for that additional conversion. The thing is, the reason I disagree with you, is because we know (?) that nicrosilminds store ability, not actual charge. If you are a Fullborn, to use the common term for a full Feruchemist who is also a Mistborn, if you are one then when you simultaneously fill an ironmind and a nicrosilmind, you are not filling weight (or the investiture representation of weight) into the necrosilmind, you are filling it with your ability to use iron Feruchemy. The thing you are putting in is already in the right Spiritual shape to grant someone that ability, they don't need to convert it to anything else. If your interpretation is correct, then you would need just some nicrosil, the ability to use nicrosil, and one (or more) other Feruchemical abilities. And to take the power out, to graft it onto your own soul, you would still need to reach into the necrosilmind and move that investiture (which, sure, is in the right shape) into your Spiritweb - which is an act I strongly believe requires (nicrosil) Feruchemy in the first place. I realize now that this last paragraph may have been going in circles a little bit, so let me offer you a different piece of counterevidence. Let's look at Wayne's brand new goldmind again. Wax can, with his Allomantic senses, detect that the item holds a charge, but can't do anything with that investiture. He can't draw it in where it would be useless to him (as he cannot turn it back into healing power). He can't tap the metalmind in any sense of the word, and he already knows how a metalmind available to him would feel like. Furthermore, to touch on something I left out of the theory as it wasn't too relevant, people seem to need to be aware that they might be able to tap into a metalmind in order to become aware of its power (see Marasi holding a medallion and only becoming aware of it magically once Allik tells us what it does). Wax, in the scene where he tries the goldmind, doesn't feel any of that, though he suspects that he may be holding a universal goldmind, having seen lady what's her face use it. So, in conclusion, writing posts at 2-3 AM is bad for me, as they turn into walls of text.

TL;DR: I hypothesize that the Southern Scadrians' medallions introduced in The Bands of Mourning avoid of the problem if their users being unable to tap the medallions' nicrosilmind by (temporarily) granting their users the ability to tap nicrosil, similarly to how the primer cubes can "replay" Allomantic powers. --- So, I've been chatting with @Spoolofwhool and a couple of other guys in Discord - about Cosmere things, but most often about the nature of necrosil as an Allomantic and Feruchemical metal. We did a lot of going around in circles and went on a lot of tangents, but one thing that came out of a few hours worth of chat is that I now have an idea about how Allik's medallions can be created. But first, let's talk about why they don't make sense. Here's how the medallions are described in The Bands of Mourning: So we have an unkeyed nicrosilmind filled with the powers of an iron Ferring. Already there are several powers in play - nicrosil Feruchemy, aluminum Feruchemy, and iron Feruchemy. Reading the entire passage, there is also copper Feruchemy, but I think that the mechanics involved in creating a medallion with one power are different from the mechanics involved in adding a second or third, so we'll ignore that for now. So how do three (or more) Ferrings (whether they are natural or Hemalurgic - we'll get to that later) create a medallion that allows anyone to fill/tap Feruchemical iron? Let me list a few requirements before we try to assemble them together in a hypothesis: If a necrosil Ferrings (a Soulbearer) simply fills their nicrosilmind, this metalmind is only available to them (it is keyed to their Identity) Aluminum Ferrings (Trueselves) can fill an aluminummind with their Identity, allowing them - if they had access to other Feruchemical powers - to create unkeyed metalminds of those powers. Given an unkeyed metalmind, only a person who can tap the given power should be able to tap it. For example, the unkeyed goldmind Wayne got in The Bands of Mourning was useless to Wax, as Wax cannot fill/tap gold. So we seem to have a lot of the ingredients we need for those medallions. If a Soulbearer got their hands on an a piece of aluminum and the power to fill/tap it, they could create an unkeyed nicrosilmind by dumping their Identity while filling the nicrosilmind. From here, they can hand the proto-medallion to an iron Ferring, who will then be able to drop their Identity in an aluminummind (assuming they too could do what a Trueself does), fill themselves with the ability to fill/tap investiture, and then fill a nicrosilmind with their own ability to use Feruchemical iron. Voala, a medallion! There are some variations to these steps, but all of them boil down to creating an unkeyed nicrosilmind. For example, you can start with the Soulbearer, have them create a (keyed) nicrosilmind, give that to a Trueself, have them drop their Identity - which VenDell speculates is possible: From here, it's the same. We have a person with both the nicrosil and aluminum Feruchemical powers, so they can create that proto-medallion that is the unkeyed nicrosilmind. There is a problem with all of this, however, and I've been intentionally ignoring it. The problem is that even if you could create a medallion (and obviously they can be created), regardless of the mechanics behind it, how is Marasi (or almost anyone) able to tap the nicrosilmind in it in the first place? Once she gains the ability to use Feruchemical nicrosil, everything else is fine - she can fill herself with the investiture stored in the medallion's nicrosilmind, which in turn grants her the power to use iron Feruchemy. But that first step, the ability to tap nicrosil, that seems problematic... Fortunately, there is hope in this WoB: So, not much new in this WoB - we already knew you could hack yourself and gain access to powers you are not supposed to have. But the medallions don't appear to be spiking anyone who puts them on, so it's pretty safe to assume that it is not the way they grant their bearer the ability to tap nicrosil. But I include it here because it is directly relevant to the medallions we are investigating. With this in mind, if we accept that what the medallions are doing is similar to Hemalurgy in the sense that they graft a special bit to their bearers' Spiritweb, one that allows them to use Feruchemical nicrosil (akin to being spiked with the same ability), then we need to turn our efforts to figuring how an item could grant Feruchemical powers without much stabbing. Fortunately, we've almost seen one! The primer cubes seem to be doing almost exactly what we need them to do - they get charged with a specific power (admittedly it's an Allomantic power, but it's not unreasonable to assume that they can work with a Feruchemical one as well), and then they "pulse" that power around them. Now, Allomantic powers work differently from Feruchemical ones - it's a net-positive system, after all. For Allomancy, the primer cube seems to work by "memorizing" the power being used nearby, and then replaying it a little later - either by "pretending" to be a metal being burned (letting the power of Preservation in), or by using its own power source to replicate the effects of the original power; not important which one. It's possible that the cubes work similarly for Feruchemy, but because of the much lower energy investiture requirements of Feruchemy, the effects would last much longer. In other words, I suspect that the medallions really contain an additional bit of metal in them, a little bit of harmonium, that "records" a nicrosil Ferring tapping their metalmind; maybe even the Ferring who created each individual medallion (to avoid Identity shenanigans), and then continuously grant that power to whoever is touching the medallion. Once that's taken care of, whoever is wearing the medallion can finally tap the nicrosilmind in the medallion and grant themselves whatever additional power the medallion is supposed to give (e.g. the Feruchemical ability to store/tap weight). So that's it. I think the secret to the medallions is harmonium. It, similarly to how it functions in the primer cubes, grants whoever is holding the medallion the ability to tap nicrosil by "replaying" a pre-programmed nicrosil tap - which they do, filling themselves with whatever ability was stored in that nicrosilmind. I am, of course, aware that what I am doing is making the existing evidence kind of fit an idea I had, but I also think a lot of the pieces fit nicely. Harmonium is a large unknown quantity, of course, but what I am assuming about it is similar enough to what we have already seen it do so I think that's safe enough. I am also aware that there are some problems with the theory (which I won't mention), and I am looking forward to getting those hammered out sometime prior to the release of Oathbringer, so I can chat with Brandon about it all I know I also hinted at we'll look into the Ferrings involved in the creation of the medallions might be created via Hemalurgy instead - but the theory is already longer than I intended it, so we'll leave that for another day. Maybe when we discuss what the Excisors are, as they sound vaguely Hemalurgic in nature, and are required for the creation of the medallions.

Which is what I was saying - he must've had it prior to Era 1, otherwise he wouldn't have known to get there.

It's a reasonable assumption. He has been getting around since, presumably, soon after the Shattering, and Scadrial is a good number of years after it. He is likely to have utilized his Hoidsense to get there during the events of the first Mistborn trilogy (and then back during the second one).

Ah, a lady after my own heart This is interesting because it suggests spren of the same type have potentially drastically different personalities. I now imagine that not all honorspren are as playful (and, let's face it, as cool) as Syl - some might be a lot more righteous, for example. Interesting. I've theorized before that the powers of voidbinding, what I call the voids, are similar to the Surges, but twisted in a way. A different take, if you will. In this context, the Midnight Essences could be utilizing Illumination's counterpart from voidbinding, perhaps something to do with illusions and/or imitation. The Listeners' smokeform also sounds like a form of power that allows them to change their shape and blend in with humans. This connection is strengthened by the fact (and someone fact-check me on this) that the Essences "bleed" smoke when their surface is punctured. In fact, as I think about smoke, my thoughts drift towards obscurity and hiding - concepts very much related, but opposite, to illumination...

Alright, now I've read it. And I liked it. This being said, Brandon's novellas and, in fact, his non-Cosmere worlds have never been my top favorites, and Snapshot is no exception - I would pick The Emperor's Soul or Edgedancer over Snapshot or Perfect State any day of the week. This being said, Snapshot was both good and refreshing. On emotional level, one thing definitely stands out to me - this novellas was a lot more full of suspense than anything I've read by Brandon. It was a new experience to me, reading a thriller. So that was pretty cool. I also thought the setting and tone were darker than usual, so I am with @ccstat on the whole "lacking optimism" thing. But I suspect this is to be expected from a thriller. On a more cognitive level, I thought myself really clever when very early on I guessed that Davis might be in a Snapshot. I thought I had finally one-upped Brandon by guessing the plot twist ahead of time. Aaand then I read the postscript. And found out it was his plan all along. In retrospect, I think I can identify a clue or two about the bigger plot twist, but I missed them during my regular read. I'll need to reread it one day for better insight into the foreshadowing.

I once went to a regular signing but had only one unsigned book, so I asked him to sign a bunch of my already signed books again. Another time I bought $100 worth of books (different editions of books I already owned) and handed them for signing. So what I am saying is, do what you want, Brandon's seen weird before

My reaction is that I am at work today and can't read

It's an interesting theory but I find the connections tenuous. Possible, certainly, but tenuous. I've always felt like the faces, the timeliness, and the whole looking towards the Origin bit are the key identifiers of Cusicesh, not the vague... feeling... of feeling drained.

I've always been bad at choosing the correct term...

I think the fundamental difference between a Shard and a Splinter (besides the obvious, which is their relative power levels) is that Splinters are actually sapient. One of the reasons Shards can be taken up by living creatures is because investiture (naturally) seeks to gain sapience, and - presumably - a lot of investiture really wants to gain sapience. Splinters, however, already have a mind of their own, they don't "want" to be picked up. In fact, I think they can't, but that might be just me.