ChickenBonanza

Speaking of Surgebinding, some WaT thoughts. I’ve made a status post of a similar nature before, discussing terminology.

Recently, I have come to reason that the term ‘Surgebinding’ is perhaps not considered in the most optimal of ways. Arising as part of my understanding that the Focus of the Rosharan system is the Surges. Something very apparently true, to me. (Possibly even the Old Magic. It is noted to be different, however, and the author considers it to be significant enough to consider it a separate magic from Surgebinding, along with Voidbinding. Yet, Fabrials are also considered by the author to be their own magic. It all depends on how you count them, and I think I count them very differently from the author. There is a Word which notes Old Magic affects aligning to the transformation of Physical or Cognitive natures being ‘along the right lines.’)

That thinking shouldn’t bloat too much of this status, so I think I shall cease on that, at least for the moment.

To begin in short, the term ‘Surgebinding’ should be considered analogous to the term ‘Metallic Art’.

There are multiple styles and sources of Surgebinding.

Honor and Cultivation’s variant, seen through a Nahel Bond with a Truespren (do Honorblades, lacking Cultivation, differ in their application of Surges from Radiants? Or does Radiant Surgebinding, tied to Honor’s Ideal system, align with Honor’s Surge variants, and thus the Honorblades? Yet the progressive nature of the Ideals are very much aligned with Cultivation, are they not? This is a digression).

Purely Honor, through the Honorblades, and those given to the states of Alaswha.

Purely Odium, through the Fused, and those given to the states of Alaswha.

Also maybe the Old Magic could be described as purely Cultivation? I’d say that it relates to Surgebinding  by being a variant on the Surge of Transformation or Progression or maybe Illumination. Something simpler in scope, like the Stoneshaping (a variant of Cohesion) Honor taught to the ancient Singers. This however, is purely speculation. Ignore this paragraph. (How did Honor teach them Stoneshaping? Did they simply learn to communicate with the Stones? Or perhaps adopt a specific form now lost to time? The Singer forms could perhaps be a way to access Surges. Lots of the Regal forms have pretty expressive powers.

Gosh, this status was meant to be purely technical in nature. Stop digressing.

Anyway, these things are all called ‘Surgebinding’ on Roshar, yet more specific names do not perhaps exist. Yes, there are the names of the Radiant Orders and the Radiants themselves, same with the Brands of the Fused, but such descriptors are very much organizational.

If an individual with a Nahel bond specifically refrained from joining the Knights Radiant, how can one refer to them? One could say Surgebinder, but Surgebinder is a wide category that applies to a wide variety. It could refer to any of the Fused Brands or any order of Knight Radiant.

How to explain this? To me, it’s like saying Metallic Artist, Allomancer, and Feruchemist.

Referring to a specific powerset, such as ‘Windrunner’ or a ‘Heavenly One,’ would be like saying ‘Tineye’ or ‘Windwhisperer’. Yet those specific terms are flawed. They refer to specific organizations. Very much unlike calling someone a ‘Pewterarm,’ which carries no connotation other than the power itself.

In a previous status, I talked on how the usage of the term Lightweaver could be more specific. If a Surgebinder bonded to a Cryptic refused to join the Order of Lightweavers, would it be proper to refer to them as something like ‘Lightweaver Surgebinder?’ Which they do have access to Lightweaving through the Surge of Illumination, they are not a Radiant Lightweaver.

I need terms. But I am getting more bogged down than I expected to be.

All I really wanted to say was that, when saying ‘Surgebinding,’ one should not think specifically of Radiants but of the magics of Roshar as a whole. Like how ‘Metallic Arts’ makes one think of more than just ‘Allomancy.’

However, attempting to get more specific runs the risk of improperly communicating allegiance. One cannot say ‘Radiant Surgebinder’ to refer to one who has bonded a Truespren of Cultivation and Honor, because they may not be a Radiant. ‘Surgebinder by way of Nahel with Truespren’ is a mouthful.

’Nahel Surgebinder’? That would include Enlightened spren weirdness.

We need good terms to denote Shard composition. Allomancy is the Metallic Art pertaining to Preservation, Hemalurgy for Ruin, Feruchemy for a mix of both. Yet we do not have those terms.

’Surgebinding of Honor and Cultivation’ 

’Surgebinding of Odium’

’Surgebinding of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium’

Need terms for all those. Shardic origin is important.

It’s a little hard to differentiate mentally the variances between each Surge as used by Fused and Radiants, because some are quite similar, unlike the greater differences seen in the Metallic Arts.

The mention and dismissal of a WaT theory, ahead.

I think it’d just be bad writing, really. (One could say it would fit right in with the bugs present in WaT already, ha, ha, that’s kinda mean.)

Taravangian’s capacity to feel, access to Nightblood, and that final surge of bravery killed Rayse, and allowed Taravangian to Ascend to Godhood, becoming Odium.

That’s all well and cool. In the days after finishing Rhythm of War, I was conflicted by such a turn of events, mourning the loss of yet another of one of the Shatterers of Adolnasium. Such an ancient being, all his knowledge, lost forever.

Yet, all I thought on the subject more, the more I liked that outcome. Taravangian would surely make a better opponent than Rayse, and perhaps proved that at the end of RoW by deceiving Hoid (the bastard).

His goal was worthy, too. He was going to save them all, and I am the type of idealist who believes he could, and perhaps hopes he, in the end, wins.

But, why does Valor have to be involved? Cultivation was the one who set everything up, and the bolstering of an emotion is an ability we see is not something limited to Shards pertaining to emotion. (And who knows if Valor actually does pertain to an emotion. Arguably, Odium is the only true Shard of emotion. Devotion probably is, as well, but what even is love and compassion, as Devotion may be? The caring for of others? Feeling for others? God’s own desire to serve his children? More so, Valor could be anything. Maybe Valor pertains to courage and bravery, but how can one be certain?)

Indeed, the bravery given to Taravangian is given particular emphasis, but Odium appreciates such a powerful emotion well, just as he does others, including hatred. Of the emotions ‘beneath’ Odium, it is not those subtle ones which find themselves less to Odium’s favor. It is unlike contentment and love.

So, from this, it may be possible for Valor to be involved, but certainly not necessarily.

In WaT, Valor is noted to have well-hidden themselves. Could such a thing really occur if they interfere so on Roshar? Certainly not hidden in the corpse of the fourth moon.

Beyond possibility in-world, the Watsonian explanation, or whatever a nerd would say, I think it would be a lame thing to do. Doylist, or something.

Roshar is far from the final sequence in the Cosmere. There is still so much to get through. The addition of more Shards, now? Save that for later. Save that for the second half of Stormlight, wherein the attention of more Shards is actually warranted. To have it as a footnote, ‘oh yeah Valor was also always there all along guys’?

Eh, it’s lame, and unnecessary, and outta nowhere.

The Changing of Planetary Focuses (WaT stuff)

On an unrelated initial interjection, what even is Nalthis’ Focus? Command would be hella weird to be tied to the planet of color, and Awakening’s Commands being so prevalent is on purpose. (There was a WoB about Commands as a universal thing in the Cosmere, but to a lesser degree than to what is seen in Awakening, to prevent systems from feeling same-y.) It’s weird. Also Roshar’s Focus is one-hundo percent the Surges, don’t @ me.

The idea of powers changing over time reflective of their source is one that I am unsure on. Like, do planetary Focuses stay consistent if a Shard unInvests a planet? If Surgebinding remains consistent in Stormlight 6, as it seems to do in Sunlight Man, would that imply that once the creation of a magic system is cemented, it’s intricacies are less affected by Shard status?

Would Honor, Cultivation, and Odium even fulfill the requirements for such a change? Cultivation’s quick exit should have left Spiritual remnants of herself Invested on Roshar. To do so completely is a whole process, as far as I remember the Words. What about Honor/Odium? Is their slow, more complete extraction a thing to worry about?

Do such things even matter, if the separate sources of the power itself might still be aligned with the Spiritual Aspect of Roshar? The Spren would maintain such a connection, surely, and it is their essence bonded to the souls of nascent Surgebinders that allow their Surgebinding. What about Fused?

What about things such as Preservation’s sDNA? A magic drawing directly from Preservation? Are such things set in stone when the sDNA template is created, or is it a continuous reflection of the Shard’s power through a Focus?

Would Ruin’s Hemalurgy know to act through Metal if Ruin is not tied to Scadrial’s Realmatic Focus of Metal? That function is not tied to sDNA like Allomancy or Feruchemy, so how severely would that react? (There is a WoB noting that Hemalurgy probably would not stop working should Ruin unInvest Scadrial, but I’m fairly sure that such a thing was talking about Hemalurgy as a universal system, like Lightweaving.)

What about the Dor? Surely Odium made certain to extract completely Devotion and Dominion from Sel’s Spirit? It still acts through Sel’s forms and manages to power new system as different Cognitive Ideals of nationhood arise. (I’m pretty sure there are words about that.) Is merely being in the Cognitive Realm of a planet enough to power a new system, and be reflective of that planet’s Focus? What would happen if a chunk of Dor found its way to a new planet? Would a new system form, with a Focus tied to that planet, not Sel’s forms?

One thing thats hard to say for certain is if there are true magic systems outside of Shardplanets and their systems.

Like, Threnody has weird Evil things going on with Shades, but I would not call that a system. Nor Canticlites and the Charred. Just standard Invested entities and Connection processes.

First of the Sun’s Aviar are different. What gives those parasites the powers to the Aviar, and their ability to create bonds to share them? I mean, they’re Invested, but the variety of effects could potentially signify a tie to a Focus. Iunno, man.

i think im done frfr now. done with all this forum interaction. brings a man naught but grief. on ja.

On the Naming of Parallel Systems

Its all about clearing away any confusion. Minor WaT stuff.

As we see in the naming of similar systems in the Cosmere, it is the norm to catalogue them under certain terms. Lightweaving. Awakened Objects. The notion that certain themes like perpendicularity-opening and other portal-shenanigans will be labeled things such as ‘Elsecalling’. (Personally, I do not like that last one. Naming systems according to a specific type of Invested Artist is asking for confusion.)

Of course, when naming functions that utilize the same principles of Realmatics, like Yolish Lightweaving and the Radiant Order of Lightweaver’s variation of the Surge of Illumination both manipulating waveforms or something like that, don’t quote me, it is only natural to do so. But one has to differentiate them. Like saying ‘Yolish’ Lightweaving.

To say ‘oh yeah that guy’s a Lightweaver’ in a Cosmere-aware setting tells us the vague capabilities of that guy, but little more than that. It adds little to any form of academic discussion. Instead, one should refer to them as a ‘Yolish Lightweaver’ or a ‘Rosharan Lightweaver’ (or, given how there are multiple expressions of the Surge of Illumination on Roshar, something like a ‘Cryptic Surgebinder’ or ‘Radiant Lightweaver’ or ‘Mavset-im’).

Thus, when talking about systems that utilize similar Realmatic Principles, like perhaps the method of using Commands which created the Father Machine, one could perhaps dub that ‘Komashan(?) Awakening’. (That method is never titled Awakening, yes, but it did involve the verb ‘Awaken’. I think is it reasonable to extend this system of naming parallel systems to it, as long as the appropriate term is used to eliminate confusion.)

More importantly, and most aggravatingly, we should also apply this to the system we see applied to Moash in WaT. Obviously, that interaction was not directly powered by Ruin, as crystal spikes are not the metal needed for traditional ‘Hemalurgy’. However, given how they both seem to interact with Bindpoints, perhaps they should be given parallel names. (Or perhaps not. Hemalurgy’s perhaps most notable feature is the stealing or otherwise interference of powers in foreign Spiritwebs before integration into one’s own. Something which those crystal spikes may not involve. However, the idea of inserting foreign Spiritweb-matter into ones own soul through the piercing of a physical Invested vessel through a Bindpoint probably warrants a similar naming scheme.)

Thus, one should talk about them in similar terms as to the ones above. Things like ‘Scadrian Hemalurgy’ and ‘Rosharan Hemalurgy’ or ‘Ruin’s Hemalurgy’ and ‘Crystal Hemalurgy’.

Awakening and System Parallelism.

(A small drabble of WaT info inside.)

In my effort to understand of the system of Awakening (specifically referring to the process seen in Warbreaker, similar processes shall be appended appropriately), I missed a glaring question that one has to ask.

Before that, however, it must be explained that my extrapolate understandings of different magic systems is based upon ‘why?’ To ask oneself why a system works like it does, and whether that system is unique in its function, or adapts universal systems either in part or entirely.

The latter was how I considered Awakening, after the Father Machine’s status as a non-Breath Awakened Object influenced by Command became clear. That, if such an object was created wholly separate from the Awakening system seen in Warbreaker, then the Awakening system was not a true one. Instead, both examples of creating an Awakened Object would be an expression of a universal system in the Cosmere. That certain forms of Investiture (the Innate, permanent kind) could be subject to a Command, wherein it would attempt to fulfill that Command and result in the creation of an Awakened Object.

There were problems with this, ones I recognized even before my most recent thoughts. That there is no guarantee that the process which created the Father Machine operates at all similar to Warbreaker’s Awakening. That it could create the small-scale things we see Awakening accomplish, like a rope which attempts to grapple. (Even now, however, I would say that is plausible. Not guaranteed, of course, but just because we have not seen something accomplished does not mean it is inherently impossible. Though that is a very slippery slope, I admit.)

Though that is a smaller issue, relatively. Another would be the assumption of Investiture response to Command. Some Invested Arts respond to Command, and some do not. Breath as an Innate Investiture responds exceptionally well to Command. Other examples of the use of Command do not interface with a ‘raw’ Investiture as Awakening does. Soulcasting and Stoneshaping interact with external intelligences, not necessarily raw Investiture. Once more, Breath’s response to Command cannot be appended to any other Investitures without direct evidence. Theoretically, the Father Machine’s creation could have behaved exactly as using Breath would, it’s plausible, but not verifiable. Either option could be possible, depending on whether Awakening is a true system or not.

If Awakening is a true system, then its ability to exit the soul and respond to Command to create Awakened Objects would be a process restricted to Breath. Like Allomancy for Allomancer sDNA.

In such a case, the Father Machine would have to be created through a system utilizing the same common features as Awakening uses. I had not previously considered this option, assuming that Virtuousity’s splintering occurred under circumstances wherein Virtuousity had not spawned any magic systems by Investing a planet or planetary system, like Preservation or Ruin or all the rest.

However, if there indeed was no magic system which would influence Virtuousity’s Investiture to enable the creation of Awakened Objects utilizing Commands, then would it not be plausible to that all types of Investiture could achieve the usage and results of that process? (Specifically using Commands to direct Investiture create an Awakened Object. [Of course, that Investiture could already be pre-imbued, and merely be directed. There are a lot of considerations, man.])

As a note, there might be objects referred to as Awakened which might not of been subject to a Command, such as the Awakened Steelmind in Sunlight Man, so we have Awakened refer to objects that may merely be sentient Invested objects, as well as sentient Invested objects subject to a Command.

Of course, merely taking a sample of gaseous or otherwise amount of raw Investiture would not work. There are words that Stormlight on its own would not work to ‘fuel’ Awakening. That Word also says the easiest way to do such would be to subvert it to Breath, which might suggest that a system attached to the Investiture is required, or that just an Investiture possessed of some permanence is needed. The former is more likely, but how can we be certain?

Hopefully what I have written explains well my thought process. I am sure there are a million different thoughts I have forgotten to list. But, here is the gist, I suppose. I can always haplessly addend later.

So, in short, the introduction of the Father Machine has caused me to question what I previously accepted as true. Either the process seen in Awakening is not unique and truly possible with all Investiture under certain circumstances, OR Awakening is a magic system which utilizes common functions of Command and sentient object creation and parallels other legitimate magic systems, like the theoretical one which created the Father Machine.

Another item to possibly take into consideration is Battar’s crystal spike business. Whether a legitimate magic system is require to exploit the principles of Bindpoints (I am fervent this is not Hemalurgy, the system powered by Ruin.), or that universal principles such as Bindpoints are possible to exploit by pure human gumption. Such a clarification might help clarify this dilemma I find myself in.

Like, I begin to doubt whether this was a theory I personally believed in, for now it’s devolved to where I straight up do not know how Awakening works anymore. I despair. The wolf devours my thoughts.

This one has seen in part the impromptu formation of a collaborative roleplaying setting/scenario (one set in the Cosmere, of course), and such a thing has led this one to think upon how they would do so.

Of paramount importance is organization. The unwashed masses cannot be trusted to act in the most optimal of ways. Indeed, it is through being led by those possessed of reason and ability that the masses create great works. This one would achieve this by prioritizing the enumeration of fundamental guiding principles. Questions of style, scope and magnitude. Whether this thing to be created is derived merely from Cosmeric operations, or more fully canon-compliant.

Such would be the first stage of creation. Meant to provide a guide for the rest of the process, to perhaps more unify ideas going forward.

The second stage would begin specifics, to greater detail ideas agreed upon above. Planetary systems to create or involve (or merely system, or merely planet), Shardic forces and the measure of their influence.

Further stages would continue similarly. Expansions on previous ideas until one reaches an agreed upon conclusion. The core theme of a planet (its climates, ecologies, and geologies, topics of those natures), then the societies present (the presence of humans, or near-humans), then perhaps more. Usages of Investiture, if applicable, would be devised around this stage. Either before or during, depending on how greatly it would shape further iteration.

Lastly, if one wishes to genuinely engage in roleplaying in a created setting, a new set of detailings is needed. Methods by which one does so, whether free-form or system-adherent. Perhaps, if applicable, systems to determine how far-reaching interaction occurs, for those crossing planets or greater. Perhaps roleplaying would itself be restricted to specific greater scenarios in certain regions and parameters, to dynamically shape future scenarios.

And that shall be all, this one thinks.

On the labeling of Shardic Intent. Minor WaT musings.

Firstly and mostly, that the naming of Shards is, largely, irrelevant. To describe the infinite powers of creation, even ones focused as the Shards are, in singular words is a futile endeavor.

They are, however, useful in giving a gist of a Shard’s Intent, so long as one remembers that that word will always be far from perfect, and often fail to fit all facets of a Shard’s Intent.

Let us take the case of Odium. Hatred is too on-the-nose, while Passion does not account for the primacy of ‘angry’ emotion within Odium. Both could be considered correct, both could be considered insufficient.

The truest glimpses we see of Odium’s essence imply its domain as all emotion. Bliss, bravery, lust, hatred. All those raw things. Yet these emotions are separate from all regulating aspects. Odium can only be driven by emotion. The strongest of these is hate. That which festers and stews and grows before explosive release. Anger is a powerful thing.

The more convoluted emotions are said to not be strictly Odium’s domain, but I doubt how true this is. Is ‘love’ truly an emotion? Or is it composed of many little feelings as they apply to another? If love would apply to any Shard, it would perhaps be Devotion, but is Devotion love?

To determine a Shard’s true nature by name alone is futile. In Devotion’s case, the glimpses we see are through Seons, who see serve those they love, and Stormfather-as-Honor’s consideration of Devotion as love and compassion.

But even then, Taravangian-as-Odium is perfectly capable of such things. It is by nature that he feels all suffering, could that resultant grief not apply? Perhaps not. Rayse certainly did not care for such trivialities.

Personally, I would not define Devotion as the opposite of Odium. Such a pairing would better be seen in Devotion and Dominion. The service of others and others serving the self. (If, indeed, that is what Dominion entails. The Skaze’s desire for control could be a reflection of Dominion’s Intent.)

And, as a side note, the coupling of Honor and Odium to form Retribution is a plausible, if shortsighted fusion of Intent. Honor’s desire to adhere to unnatural law coupled with Odium’s desire to act out according to feeling. (Though the following is perhaps more so, in a way. Retribution is sustainable on its own, perhaps, while the following is not.)

Personally, I’d attempt to adhere those forces together in an Intent that could be said to be War. Odium’s raging drive, Honor’s binding by rules, regulation, treaties. Like Retribution, Odium is given a direction to follow, though not tied as strictly to Honor’s relation to the concept of oath. If one plans to wage War against the Cosmere, why not attempt to create a Shard well-suited to such an endeavor? (An Intent aligning to Conquest would not be possible, I believe. Honor does align with consistent overview, but Odium does not. Odium and Dominion might fit Conquest better. War would be conflict for its own sake. Violence, yet structured. Soldiers adhering to orders, yet releasing full their fury upon their foes.)

Mercy is found only in shadow. I desire that, I think. To dwell within its depths and derive sustenance from the moss and their watered runoff. Yes. I think I will stay, there.