Tamriel Wolfsbaine

I need to look in this forum more often as my post in the general was completely blind of this existing. I definately think the size of your metalmind plays the biggest role in compounding. I think the investiture distributes itself evenly no matter the size of the metalmind and the best most efficient way to compound would be by burning densely stored metalminds. You would gain more of the trait per second of burnrate so long as that allomantic metal shaving/ bead is packed as densely as it can.

I imagine it is more of a pause to aging keeping at that age until you lose it and then allowing you to age regularly past that. We haven't seen a kid with 2000 breaths yet. We don't know if they would have sped up aging like a child returned or anything. In my mind it is more of a pause than other options. What we saw in mistborn we also have WoBs that say it was a wasteful and inefficient way to be ageless. I think 2000 breaths would most certainly be a more effective and efficient way than that.

BoM Back to lifesense. WoB says coppercloud would blot out lifesense. It didn't say anything about perfect lifesense or how much lifesense could be obstructed. It is possible that lifesense, even when perfected, is simply too passive and low key to pierce a coppercloud. It is also possible that lifesense from 1-999 breaths can be blocked by a coppercloud but once you hit 1000 breaths and the 4th heightening you are able to get fainter, but still there, sense of it. Copperclouds are said plainly that they block seekers. But there are always exceptions to the rules. I imagine that, likewise, copperclouds block lifesense. There are likely exceptions to the rules in terms of a persons power. Vasher at the 3rd heightening might lose all lifesense when in a coppercloud. Vasher might still have the ability to sense life even in the same room as that smoker at 4th heightening. Likewise copperclouds also vary in strength and area of effect. It is likely that a coppercloud from a new smoker who is using a very light burn would not obscure as much as a coppercloud savant who is flaring for all their worth in and around Vasher.

Fixed that.

It makes sense that you could compress the gaseous forms of a shard into solid. I imagine enough tension and pressure plus the adhesion to hold it fast might be able to make the metal. I guess my question is would enough atium or lerasium beads forged into a knife give you an edge that cuts on the spiritual as well. Scadrial seems to have a lot more access to harmonium than other planets have access to their godmetals. Is harmonium unable to cut on both realms being a godmetal or do you suspect the usages of harmonium just offer so much more in the form of allomantic grenades, bombs and fueling so much of their tech that taking it and making it a blade is simply impractical? Is tunnelvisioning onto shard weapons and armor actually a hindrance to progression?

I think lifesense detects innate investiture specifically. Much like bronze detects active kinetic investiture. I imagine that given bronze and steel sight can be stored in tin then lifesense should be able to as well. My thoughts for lifesense being able to be stored were selfishly hoped for in a way to allow someone to lifesense through a coppercloud. I feel like perfect lifesense is a thing but is it strong enough to pierce a coppercloud? We see seekers capable of piercing it but what does perfect entale? Could a tin compounder or feruchemist store lifesense and then draw it out beyond what perfect would be?

Thanks for showing these and straightening this out. I've read all of that a hundred times in other threads but my brain went off on a weird train yesterday trying to put together the cutting power of shardblades with what is a godmetal. Legit looking back I think I was dumber in cosmere after genuinely trying to learn more at no fault of anyone but myself. So given what splinters are vs what shardmetals are would a bondsmith being able to create shardmetal allow them to create a blade at all? If it is the sentience of the metal that allows it to cut as we see nightblood and shards do then what would need to happen? What went into honorblades to allow them to give access to surges and cut as a shardblade does? Is that a very specific to tanavastium trait or is there a slight sentience to honorblades as well?

So there are a few things worth considering with this. Vin runs as fast as a galloping horse. Kelsier likely would be slightly faster. Lerasium mistborn would be significantly faster than the galloping horse theory. I imagine the dominances are huge. We have nothing to really judge it by other than it is one continent and that Scadrial is the cosmeres base 1.0 unit of measure for planets and is the closest to earth. I am sure the dominence is closer to the western states in size than the Northeastern or even Midwestern states. In all of these vs that involve mistborn we have always assumed (or at least I have) the more average mistborn at 1000 years post first Lerasium mistborn. If we were to compare a Lerasium mistborn or anyone with a boosted allomantic power for whatever reason we could see drastically different results. I am sure a galloping horse is on the lower end of what a pewter sprint could do. That was a pewter sprint for a 5 foot skaa girl. If she was struggling to keep up, knowing Kelsier and his drive and instinct it was everything he had in him to slow down enough for her to do it. So from Vin we see a 5 foot tall girl run the speed of a horse and do backflips 7+ feet in the air from the ground to vault overtop a taller beefier thug with a staff in Ham. We see her head get hard enough to explode another man's skull and not be damaged from the impact. We see her hold on and come back to life through instinctively burning after having been nearly eviscerated by an obsidian axe as well as (duralumin use here I know) survive the crushing weight against her body to shove open the doors to the well of ascension. Pewter doesn't heal anywhere near the way stormlight does... and it won't heal through a shardblade injury at all... but pound for pound I think pewter is the single most powerful ability in the cosmere (counting stormlight for its enhancement and healing but no surges). And I wouldn't doubt if a pewter burner can outsprint a horse given they are a lerasium mistborn and taller / more athletic baseline.

I am trying to put this all together in my mind. Perhaps the use of surges is based on the connection that a radiant has to a specific alloy (based on % of the two shards making up the spren type that radiant is bonded to)? Like a mistborn has access to all metals but a misting only has access to 1. Perhaps there is a connection issue with what alloys you are connected enough with to draw on the investiture. In the case of radiants are the spren the same as the alloys and thus bonding to them allows you access to the key for specific powers? Then they may breathe in the stormlight to fuel whichever surges they have a bond with the key to use? Would certain orders be more efficient using lifelight based on the % of cultivation that the spren are made up of?

Thinking about the weaker realmatic barriers... is it connection that changes the thickness of these walls? Do you think a duralumin compounder could potentially increase their connection so much that they could inhale the mist and become a mistborn through that or simply just access the power of preservation? Perhaps gain access to a similar healing effect as other gaseous forms of investiture? So the splinters are holding sentience due to the fact that honor is dead in the case of shards? Would a blade forged with a small % of a godmetal x take less breaths to awaken and give you a cutting effect such as shardblades? Is it possible that there was physical atium forgewelded into the steel that makes up nightblood or could a chunk of godmetal being forgewelded into a blade reduce the amount of breath and perhaps give a totally different effect from what we saw with nightblood?

So creating the metal would not take away from anything? Tanavastium is what honor blades and likely shardblades are made out of? Does this work like this for all shardmetals? How invested were the pieces of Lerasium? If there were 16 beads and Leras basically gave up his body to produce them how does a bead of Lerasium compare investiture wise to a shardblade? Would the beads of Lerasium forged into a blade have the same cutting properties as shardblades? How is it that Honor was able to splinter into so many shards yet preservation crapped out after just 16 beads? Were the shards equal parts, investiture wise, Adonalsium? I actually believe it could be possible for a bondsmith to make the godmetal but I don't know if I agree based on the same premise. I think that the mist is to preservation as stormlight is to honor. Perhaps each shard has its own gaseous / liquid / solid form. What is it about roshar that allows these forms so easily drawn from and readily available. It makes sense to me that a discrepancy in the shards investiture and worlds investiture levels could be dependent on the idea that Adonalsium was more honor than preservation / ruin and thus honor simply had more investiture to start... or a key to the larger portion of total investiture in the cosmere?

So Honor being dead is more of a splintering and his power is the metal names after the person who did hold him but can't anymore because he is dead / splintered? So honor exists everywhere but nowhere at once and the metal for it is finite but not really because it is just recycled back and around? In Harmonys case does he hold the same amount of power as Ati and Leras when they were on their own but combined? Or is he holding the remainder of 2 crippled and nearly totally splintered shards? This suggests that godmetals may temporarily be moved through but that power is always there? Waiting to collect and be used again?

Running from St George to Salt Lake City would be a 302 mile stretch. If you entered Utah on I15 and drove the entire distance to the exit of Utah it would be 401 miles. 401 miles in 12 hours would be 33.4mph and I think that is right about in line with the galloping horse theory. The amount of pewter they must have had is insane. My question is do Kelsier and Vin both have the same stride? To think they both were sprinting at their maximum suggests that they both kept pace perfectly and that the upper limit of pewter sprinting is not determined by strength of the allomancer or physicality of the allomancer either. I imagine one of them was holding back slightly for the other to keep pace. Perhaps Vin's allomantic strength was greater than Kelsiers allowing her to make up for a shorter gait? Or did the pewter allow her the strength to keep a gait the same as Kelsier. I would motion that in this example it actually doesn't show how fast a typical pewterarm could run but it shows us how fast the slower of 2 mistborn could run. How badly would Elend have destroyed Ham or Kelsier in a foot race?

This is actually a point I am not sure I understand correctly. Tanavastium is the metal for Tanavast who holds honor. But honor is dead? Is Tanavast dead? I struggled with the in the mistborn series as well. Ati held Ruin. But atium was literally Ati's body? Likewise Leras giving out all that Lerasium created a way for that power to continue and stick around forever? Where does the dilution end for this? Is the sum total of allomantic power on Scadrial equal to the initial beads of lerasium given out? What is the difference between a shardholder and the shard itself. Is the godmetal the shard holder or is it the shard? Even after burning away so much atium there is still enough of ruin to create harmony. Is Harmony devoid of power in comparison to what Ati and Leras were separately or is he actually holding the power of 2 shards? Even with a shard being dead their investiture and power are clearly able to stick around... but when we say honor is dead is it the shard or the shardbearer? If a Bondsmith were to create Tanavastium what happens to Tanavast and to the net total of Honors power? Is investiture finite? Would this be creating investiture or stealing it from where it was?

Is this to suggest that a bondsmith could create Lerasium and thus create an army of radiants with access to full strength lerasium mistborn powers? Make atium and supply the Rosharan army with what is perhaps the single most OP dueling power in the cosmere? Is it even possible to create a shardmetal or would they be stealing it and making shards weaker? Given than shardmetals are basically a portion of the shards themselves (the whole plot to HoA).

Things bondsmith can't do? React fast enough to stop a fullborn slapping them across Roshar. Stop a godking awakening the jewelry they wear with the command "destroy who wears you" and sending them into oblivion.

Can I just say how much I love the idea of a godking thinking commands to a piece of jewelry to "destroy that which holds you" from across the battlefield. Honestly I think the Godking with the right command is the scariest thing in the cosmere by far and away. Heck even 9th heightening could just speak it and have the same effect. You can create an entire set of armor that is more invested than shardplate as well as a blade that is more invested than shardblades. You can indefinitely CC a person for the simple crime of choosing to show up to the fight in clothing, and you can do it all at range at the speed of thought or speech. If all else fails you can just find a hole to hide in for a few lifetimes and come back out after your enemies have forgotten you even exist. All of which are more plausible options at the moment than making a new oathpact... the whole unchained thing sort of hinges on you saying screw the oaths and the being bound by honor thing. What is a radiant without a binding oath anyways? Becoming a cognitive shadow and playing darksouls fighting the same boss 600 times is similar to Kelsier offering people drinks to listen to him tell stories about how he outlived TLR cause 1337 skills.

I wish we knew if Vin was sprinting for that entire time or if she was pacing herself closer to that of a marathoner. If she was moving 1.75x the speed of Usain Bolt at a pace that was meant to be some what energy conserving then I am sure she could sprint at least 2x the speed of a normal sprinter and could potentially sprint 3x as fast as a non pewter enhanced being. But was her days long run a full out sprint and she was simply able to keep it up due to continuous pewter? When burning pewter (or stormlight for that matter) does your body ever allow your heart to get stressed? If I hook up a pewter burner and a stormlight burner to an exercise stress test will I hit a limit to their speed before I hit a maximum heartrate? In this instance I know the radiant won't top out as fast as a pewterarm but would the radiants heart rate even increase past a moderate rate? Can pewter or stormlight be pushed physically to the point of ischemia? Or do the magics work so that they can operate at a true sprint with no cardiovascular side effects until the magics suddenly run out? I feel like stormlight will heal any ischemia as it happens so they can sprint 100% effort as long as they have light. Pewter doesn't necessarily heal any inschemia so it must just hold it back. I am trying to remember if the pewter arms ever felt like they were really pushing themselves. If there are instances where they felt like they were pushed to their max I would assume that in a marathon situation they would likely not be sprinting which would put Vins run at less than maximum speed as she understood she had a lot of ground to cover. Again, I provided the graph of average Olympic level speeds for sprints all the way down to marathoners. If Vin was not in a dead sprint flaring pewter the entire time and was running in more of a marathoners fashion we could conclude that a pewter flared sprint would actually outpace not just a galloping horse but potentially outsprint a horse.

Investiture is great isn't it? That rush of power when you take a deep breath of stormlight or start flaring the pewter in your gut. You have the feeling of utter perfection when the colors around you become more vibrant and the tones of the wind start singing in harmony with eachother. Drawing upon incredible stores of speed, strength, or even slowing down the world around you so you can just take a second to breath in life and process everything. Sadly, all ups come with downs. We have pewterdrags which I believe carry the most pronounced downers in the cosmere offering the very real possibility of dying after pushing your body beyond what it should do. We have drabs who suddenly are less than in every imaginable way. We have the feruchemist who needs to feel as though they are walking through sludge before they can feel the wind on their faces again. I even feel like I remember Kaladin feeling exhausted when he ran out of stormlight. I am curious about which of these uppers and downers are most detrimental in life or death situations. We have heard plenty of evidence for biochromatic highs getting people killed and we see the psychological hit a person takes when they become a drab after spending time at even the lower heightenings. Pewter I believe is the most dramatic of physical enhancement forms of investiture and it makes sense that with the ability to push your natural self to such extremes you also face the most dire of consequences when the flow of drug ... I mean investiture wears off. Stormlight would be the next choice, in my opinion, for physical enhancements and I believe it would fit for a user to need to overcome a momentary downer after spending too prolonged a time on it. How detrimental that could be in battle?? Maybe not instant death as we see in the case of a pewterdrag being cut short... but certainly dangerous if there was no weaning period at all. Feruchemy I think is the lucky option in this group. You spend all the down time before your need for a quick high and you can spread out the less than stages as you feel comfortable. The upside is that you can draw on incredible amounts of power or you can draw on a small trickle of power to make your life a little easier for a moment. The downside... its all coming from you. No external source of investiture to aid you. Curious for other examples I have missed, as I overlook many, and also curious how much of a difference the limited power sources could make in life and death situations. Do you think it is specific only to large physically enhancing investiture? Do you think the body simply forgets about its exhaustion while under those effects and it catches up to everyone once they are gone? Or do you think the danger of this is really just a pewter specific thing because none of the other systems really highlight the downers as a significant threat? You have stormlight and pewter going into round 20/10 and both fighters would be beyond useless if not for their enhanced bodies. They both get leeched at the same time. Who would be left standing?

If aging is based on connection then wouldn't compounding duralumin be a more effective way to stay ageless on Scadrial as well? I have also held onto the theory that identity compounding could well short circuit a way to achieve some bonkers healing and perhaps connection could do that as well. These spiritual attributes could well become a bigger deal in more than just your bondsmiths. It could change a lot more about the metallic arts as well.

I think this is a great point. Shardbearers cannot hold ground... radiants can. Open a perpendicularity and do whatever bonkers shenanigan's you can think of with the surges on an aoe scale and in theory you should be able to swallow up entire armies of enemies without breaking a sweat. Thats my whole issue with SA. I would much prefer a book full of PoV characters who are in unpowered in the armies fighting battles that they can't win only to have radiants swoop in and do their things. How epic was that vision Dalinar had when he first saw a windrunner swoop in and the awe it inspired from him and the readers. Sprinkle in a few PoV characters who have these powers but to try revolving the story around them just takes the wind right out of the sails. Again Adolin is such a fun character to read because he is strong. He was the thing everyone wanted to be. He studied and knows the limits of what he is. Reading his PoV in battles great... he plays this hugely important role as a shardbearer knowing he can't hold ground but willing to try to do exactly that when it is needed. To watch him going from this powerful character to being a play toy for radiants is just sad. Perhaps I also draw issue with the fact that the powersets are so broad in stormlight. Stormlight does soooo much. If a person were only able to do a single thing in the cosmere I think you would be a fool to not choose breathing stormlight as the option. No surges no plate or blade. Just stormlight. Certainly for me it is between that and A pewter. (I don't know what a comparable amount of breaths would be but I could be enticed by the 3rd or 4th heightening).

I guess I don't know what is still in the theoretical / RAFO realm for the Bondsmith. We have ample in world examples of compounders/ feruchemist / mistborn alike. To say a fullborn would have ingested metals and full metalminds is not a stretch in the least. The bondsmith walking around in invisible plate and potentially access to a blade with some gems straped to them (but why when you can open a perpendicularity anyways?) Is all viable. I think the stretch is adding one's self to the oathpact as a standard preparation...

I think this is what it all boils down to. It is written in a way that people can enjoy it who don't enjoy all the filth that a lot of other authors litter their books with. For that I am really glad. That's actually my favorite thing about reading Brandon's works is how clean they are relative to the other big series I enjoy. My kid will be able to enjoy stormlight far before he will enjoy some of the other epics out there for that reason and I just choose not to read certain things anyways. I have a hard time calling SA an epic fantasy though for myself. Its closer to the MCU than Lord of the Rings and I would put the main characters far beneath those in middle earth. What makes a great fantasy is the tension imo. Hobbits going out and traveling the world was always going to work. The little guy tackling an impossible task. What is so frustrating about SA is that I had that feeling the first book and I had epic feelings as kaladin grew in the second book. But now it feels the characters have outgrown their world. When Dalinar lost most of his force after being abandoned by his friend it was a blow. A hard blow at a critical time. Kaladin running back with the bridge 4 crew to save them was so fun to listen to because it was an EPIC feat to go back and risk literally everything for them. Now it is not a risk. Half an army dying in book 1 was devastating. Now entire armies die while you read about a few superheroes and villians fighting above the mass destruction below them. Vin vs Ruin was so epic because the stakes were all or nothing. You laid it all out on the table or the whole world was going to be destroyed. The desperation was so thick. All that antagonist wanted was for everyone to be dead. We got to see allomancy stretched to its limits. The BoM gave us a look at the world through the eyes of the most powerful being they knew to live. So epic in that moment of desperation unleashing that power. Odium wants a planet he can control and keep in bondage thus we have all of these characters who by necessity can't use their entire tool kits. We see through the eyes of these all powerful radiants and none of them use it. They don't have too either. They aren't so desperate as to need to soulcast the air around their enemies. They aren't so desperate to need to use lasers or turn their opponents into dust or root down the entire army to negate losses on their side. The complete disregard of the little guy in SA is kind of what kills it on the epic fantasy level and moves it to more of a fun, long superheroe comic book level. This is why I actually really like reading Adolins story. He went from being in the 99% to being in the 98% and still having so much a gap between himself and the top % that the story isn't nearly as fun anymore. When Kaladin was fighting a shardbearer and his men were being cut down as he danced around the blade it was an epic scene. When he hopped into the ring to save Adolin it was epic. But fast forward a couple books and we went from them being a close match to this point where Adolin vs Kaladin isn't even a match up. Kaladin at 4th ideal could destroy Adolin in his shards about as fast as Adolin could destroy an old granny crossing the street. You can't write a magic system that stacks power that fast and not have it damage the story. You can't have the best duelist in the world suddenly be a fly under the feet of your magic system and have there be any meaning to the little guys dying. Adolin might be annoying but I actually love his character because when he looks at the world the same way I imagine Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli must have when they approached the black gate. Powerful in their own rights but utterly outclassed and outmatched in the grand scheme of things. Biggest difference is that Adolin knows he has radiants in his corner where the fellowship were totally unaware of whether Frodo was even alive anymore.

I agree. My point was that the bands in the form that they are in the hands of a person who can only tap them can be used once at a 1:1 ratio. The bands in the hands of a mistborn would have been able to be burned for a 1:10 ratio net positive's (according to Sazed the holder of 2 shards with a lifetime experience as a feruchemist) amount of investiture. The difference is that once drained the feruchemical way they are empty and able to be filled again... if used by an allomancer they disappear completely. A 100% full gram of metal will give you more output than a 10% full gram of metal and they will do it in the same amount of time as allomancy has been shown to burn metals at pretty consistent speeds. My point wasnt to live and die on a multiplier of 10. We saw it in the books and it is a nice round number to use for demonstrations sake. It's very obviously shown to be a large increase in power allowing for net positive output potential. Wayne picking up the bracelet and noting how much more health was in it than any of his metalminds ever held just shows us how acutely aware metalborn are of the powers that they hold. A huge theme in mistborn was the characters knowing instinctively how much much metal they had and how long it would last, and again now, how much attribute they had stored. Miles was never afraid of running out and he was never afraid of having enough to knit himself back together in time to keep fighting. Sadly we didnt get to see just how full his metalminds were but I imagine if he were to start all over again with non full metalminds his best bet would be to start storing in the smallest shavings of metal he possibly could and then compounding from there vs storing into a large piece of metal and trying to burn it down and compound it past that. The density of the power in the metal would make a difference in how fast and likely it is to get to a point where you have so much attribute available to you that between tapping and burning you have zero fear of running out or not being able to get the job done when it is time. Hence my thought that bleeder was potentially running on burnt metalminds vs just tapping and then storing in the background. She made the swap from feruchemy to allomancy really quick. Even if she did have both spikes and swapped them out in some janky drop one out while dropping one in move that seems awfully risky knowing that Harmony was hovering to take her over as soon as she activated a 2nd spike or that she was going to revert to mistwraith form if she didnt have the swap work out perfectly.

This assumption is thrown wildly in the bondsmiths favor. Imagine you are a gunslinger who shows up to a fight at high noon and you laugh at your opponent as they carry only a sword but then you pull out your pistol and you left home with it totally unloaded? The Fullborn has access to compounding every single metal. You want us to assume they dont have full metalminds and ingested allomantic metal and feruchemical metal when everything in the books shows that allomancers and feruchemists carried these things and had ingested metals at the ready with very few exceptions (I only remember Marasi being mad she wasnt prepared)... many have run out of metals but 1 out of how many showed up with no metal? That said I guess if the Bondsmith gets infinite healing, infinite investiture, infinite foreknowledge of their enemy past the first death and infinite lives, while the Fullborn only gets 1 life then Roshar can check off another victory.