Tamriel Wolfsbaine

I think the runner did a pretty good job of summarizing what is stored. And I agree with the time and that you would lose a ton of it were you to tap it at once. I guess my issue is that when capable of compounding that you don't suffer those same diminishing returns. The entire idea of feruchemy is that it is net neutral (actually could be argued that it is net negative when tapping at high high rates) but allomancy makes it net positive. Is there any point where burning it allomantically still loses so much of that stored attribute to make even the compounding net negative? 100,000 months of speed stored into a metalmind and compounded should no longer suffer the massive diminishing returns otherwise it would be net negative. It now gets compressed and used at whatever rate that it burns. If that 100,000 months of speed were to be burned over a day or two or 7 wouldn't it then be split out and even based on the time to burn that metalmind? And then, according to the books, you would also gain some form of bonus as that ludicrous amount of attribute gets fueled further from the spiritual realm via allomantic power burning it to access it? I genuinely might just be going full retard on this whole compounding thing. I should honestly just stick to my day job. I figure if compounding is the attribute in a metal being fed by allomancy and multiplied by that then there would be some theoretical break points. With no diminishing returns thanks to allomancy feeding it we either end up with one of two things. Allomancy offering a flat rate dispite what is stored, which can very easily turn that storage net negative if a high amount was stored. Or allomancy bypassing the need to tap and compress traits which would then make your limiting timeline be the metalmind size and burn rate. I think where I am missing it is this third idea that could be feruchemical power still being compressed while burning it and suffering from large diminishing returns due to it acting as if that metalmind was tapped. That is where I feel like the slider exists where everyone could speculate. My mind hoped it would be simple a or b but it is likely some super convoluted formula that Brandon's team is trying to make up in the background to explain his coolest scenes. If his process is to write the scene and then have them make it so there is just enough power there to do cool thing X... then the compounding rules are all over the place and the existence of the bands being as full as they are kind of weakens the system imo. Miles compounding health was never an issue for my brain to try to understand. Only when I saw Mach1+ used for what could have been 2 seconds or longer did I actually have my brain break at the potential speed held by the bands if they were burnt allomantically. I will probably just hang out and wait to keep reading future books if and when compounding gets seen more. Because I can't think of a way that the bands burnt allomantically can be even slightly balanced by other systems and stay net positive. In my mind the fight never even really starts between a fullborn and a radiant. Plate would crumble as simply as an egg shell under the hand and leeching would eventually seal the deal. Minus speed... yeah maybe but every single metal does that. Reach a hand into the plate and grab hold of the radiant and just turn up the heat and bake them inside their plate... eventually the stormlight will run out.

Do we know that the healing must be external to survive a shardblade to the spine? I would imagine that it would break connection to everything below it as in the case of paraplegic and quadriplegic patients depending on where the cut was made. If a gold compounder had metalminds on and in their head they should still be able to burn them to heal up right? We have WoBs saying that Miles could have burnt gold and compound healed his way through spikes that yoink the spirit away... why would cutting a spirit be any different? The healing rate is so high that it would be healed as the blade passed through. Also... when the bridgeman lost use of his legs was it a lower back injury or just above the knees or what? Instinctive burning is a thing we have seen of allomancy and seems to work in the same sphere as stormlight just doing its thing. If a shardblade hits your spine does the body cease all functions? Are bowels and bladder released after shardblade death or does the body and musculature lock down in its exact state? There is dead and there is mostly dead... and then there is nightblood dead.

I am catching on to your thoughts on compounding... except the fullness of a metalmind but that is besides the point. We have only a single instance of a metalmind being described as full and depending on what math you use it is disgusting. If we have Marasi as a top female sprinter at 21mph she would have to be moving 36.5x faster than her fastest to break mach 1. If she were running for 2 seconds then what math do we use to think about just how full those bracers had to be? Would it be 2^36.5 = 97billion seconds worth of 2x speed or would it be 2^73 = 9.4447e+23 seconds worth of 50% speed stored? I assume this matters only in the case of compounding as it would not suffer from the same level of diminishing returns. (I was under the impression that there were no diminishing returns when you burnt the metal instead) I mean as far as numbers go something happened with the bands that allowed her to do what she did and they are among the few (perhaps the only) metalminds described as truly full. Perhaps it wasn't full with strictly mortal speed stored but if compounding could allow a metalmind to get that full it would give some thought about how dangerous a fullborn is. If that much attribute can be stored in 1/16 of the bands then starting with a sliver of metal and filling it to start the compounding process it should be feasible to be able to extend out the idea that all attributes could be compounded to those levels. If that is true then even a tiny portion metalminds that densely filled with attribute could be used for a long long time increasing ones attributes far beyond what shardplate could hope to offer a radiant. Trying to tie it back to the discussion I am just confused if I am grossly overestimating the power of compounding and being a fullborn or not.

I'm trying to get someone to put some numbers on the line and calculate out their thoughts on how fast a speedster could and should be going while compounding. So your speeder has stored 50% speed/hr for 18.2 hours. That means through typical feruchemy that speedster can run 150% for 18.2 hours afterwords... all the way up to ~950% faster for 1 second through tapping huge amounts (not counting on any diminishing returns here). If a gram of steel burns over an hour how much speed is that speedster going to gain when burning a 1 gram metalmind? For 1 hour of burning you would have to be able to run ~350% faster than normal to break even and have not lost any attribute. If there is some sort of multiplier on top of that (use The 10x idea) are you moving 3500% faster than normal for that entire hour? If that same amount of speed were stored in 1/6 of a gram would the burn rate be faster or slower than the larger one? And how fast would the speedster be traveling and for how long now? Would it be 6x faster for 1/6th the time? So instead of 3500% for an hour we now move 21000% faster for 10 minutes? I feel like you are hinting that the metal would actually burn faster if it is more full. Would speed not be boosted even more ridiculously with a faster burn? If it does not follow this pattern then at what point do you no longer gain any benefits from compounding at all? Would the bands burn near instantly given how full they were? Or would Wax just be in danger of melting himself with every step he takes while burning the bands?

No rush at all. I get the no more brain power. It is in part why I am asking for the folks who have tossed ideas around on compounding to do this. I hope that with a specific set of parameters for everyone to use I can really compare and see the end results. My brain is so extremely full and cosmere thoughts are forced to take a back seat so I will just pop back in and see what everyone thinks later.

The problem with a more full metalmind burning faster is that unless you are no longer gaining anything from the spiritual world there comes a point where you are losing power which is in direct contrast to the concept of compounding being net positive. If you have seconds of 2x speed stored for 65,536 seconds then you have 3x speed for 32,768 and 4x speed for 16,384 seconds... all the way down to 18x speed for 1 second. Take that attribute storage and put it into a flake of steel only capable of being burnt typically over 1 second. Now place it in a chunk of steel that would burn over 10 seconds. Do the same in a chunk of steel that would burn over 1 minute. And finally an hour. How fast do you think each would allow the speedster to run and for how long? Are we wasting attribute in any of these? I would genuinely love to see thoughts from @Frustration, @therunner, @IlstrawberrySeed and @Trusk'our as well. I don't mean to be infuriating and make anyone feel like they are talking into a wall but I think if we all use the same set of storage and speak on the same sized metalminds we could show the different ideas in a formulated way and see where the differences are... at least for the poor fool that I am being unable to keep formulas straight in my own brain. I would personally imagine that the smaller the metalmind the more ludicrous speeds this speedster could generate from burning alone. I don't know that it is 10x more or whatever compounded as I agree the idea of burning the bands giving Wax Mach4 for 7 days straight sounds like an awful lot. But this would show us a very small metalmind with a ton of attribute stored in it all the way to a large metalmind with not as much.

This is honestly a thing that I am still trying to understand. I get that allomantic strength and power come into play here and it is a great theory except when it comes to metalminds with next to no storage and metalminds with a boatload of storage. What is the burn rate and what is the burn rate based on? If you had the same mass of allomantic steel 3 ways... One with 10 seconds worth of A steel One as a metalmind with 5 seconds of double speed stored One with a metalmind with 500 seconds of double speed stored What rate do these burn and how do they work in a way to power the feruchemy with allomancy without being busted and without becoming net negative? I have read some theories that the full metalmind would just burn super slow and meet some speed cap from burning. My issue with that is that it literally nets us an infinite amount of theoretical power that gets to be on a slider ready to be moved to suit the most current argument. You can make it as weak or as powerful as you want based on burn rate.

I haven't finished it yet... glad to hear there are answers out there to that one.

Is the steel sight for inquisitors just while they are burning steel? Marsh said something along the lines of how he lost his eyes but he gained something so much more. Is he just constantly keeping a low burn on steel and iron or is there something about those 2 eye spikes that actually grant him that heightened level of steel sight all the time?

I would have loved to see Tarson with F gold as well. Probably would have just ended with a head shot anyways but dang that would have been a tank of an enemy for Wax to deal with.

I like a lot of this. My question is just this... is there a breakpoint where you actually lose attribute per time burning the metalmind making it net negative? Or can you just stuff a metalmind so full of attribute that it burns at such a small rate as to keep itself net positive? If I have a gram of steel stuffed with millions of seconds worth of speed and I burnt that how slow would it have to burn to get to a reasonable power level while not losing attribute? The danger of 10x argument is that it can quickly get out of hand but it always stays net positive which is the whole point. Trying to limit the metalmind and saying you get x from it based on allomantic strength opens a lot of doors to which you could end up with a huge loss of attribute over the period of burning that metalmind. I don't mean to pester the idea I am just trying to make it work in my mind that compounding is always net positive feruchemy but there are limits to how much you can gain to where you are burning just a few molecules at a time and a really full metalmind could last you years and years to burn through gaining the compounding benefits? I get the want and desire to need to still tap for attributes but how much of an attribute do you think you can pull out at once? 10x speed? 20x speed? Honestly to be able to move around at 200 mph on a slow burn is a big deal even if you did have to concede and tap more past that but I am curious what you think those numbers could be. I am not wanting to beat a dead horse. But to go Mach1 for 2 seconds Marasi would have had to withdraw 60billion seconds of doubled speed from the bands of mourning (not accounting for any diminishing returns so it could have been holding two or three or who knows how many times that amount). How big do you think that metalmind was, and how long would it have to last burning at what you deem a reasonable amount of speed from compounding to still end up being net positive? I think the ideas are in the right ballpark but healing is really hard to gauge power and numbers with. Speed, based on what we know about feruchemy, gives us some good numbers to play around with and I would like to see those numbers work in a way other than "This theory explains Miles." How fast do you think Wax could go, and for how long do you think he could do that burning the steel from the bands.

The koloss blooded thug... In the first books Ham seemed to suggest that Vin got more out of pewter than a stronger person. Was Vin actually just a stronger pewter allomamcer or was it her lack of strength that allowed her to appear stronger? Could it be that Vin appears stronger because she is not as trained as Ham? Or is it literally that everyone just get boosted to the same level period? How does this work for a kolossblooded? Is Tarson gaining less benefit than other thugs or would his kolossbloodedness stack and allow pewter to be even more effective for him? I think I remember him being able to shrug off any would other than a 1 hit kill while burning pewter and I assume that is a result of having the koloss toughness combined with the pewterarm effects.

I am just genuinely trying to figure this out. So the amount of storage in a metalmind has an effect on compounding or it doesn't? I store 1 second of speed into a 188 gram metalmind. Then when I burn that I get 10 seconds out of it before it just turns into normal steel? What then of the 60 billion seconds of speed in the same 188 gram metalmind? Does it burn so slowly that you would never use it up? Part of these suggest you would burn faster the more full it is. Which is where I am saying if that were the case you would see even bigger top speed numbers. But if the amount that that metalmind is full doesn't have any effect on burning then why would 1 second of speed only net you 10 seconds worth before turning into normal A steel? It seems that in this thought process there is some magical breakpoint where suddenly compounding is no longer net positive because you have too much attribute stored.

So are there any WoBs to support that a metalmind burns faster with less attribute stored? I think the idea you are proposing is that, instead of Wax being able to burn a gram of steel an hour, because the bands were so insanely full he would take days and days to burn that same gram of steel? Using 2 seconds at Mach 1 in 188 grams of steel we still end up with 60billion seconds of 200% physical speed... And when compounding it becomes 600billion seconds worth of speed that the compounder has access to. Do we have anything to support a timetable that would lessen the power of the bands for someone like Wax? That is still nearly 3.2 billion seconds of double time per gram of steel. 37000 days at 200% movement per gram off steel in the bands (if we assume 24cc of steel). And when you burn it you suffer no diminishing returns from what we know. I guess I am looking for something that hints to a compounder being limited to just 10-20x enhancement at any one time. As far as I know the only math we have is Miles or Sazed (I honestly can't remember which one) mentioning that you get 10x what you put in when you burn it. I can't think of a mention of how fast or slow you are forced to burn it and that would work completely contrary to everything we have seen from allomancy in the past. If the metal burns the same as with allomancy then there is a low burn and a normal burn and a flare rate all applicable. We also have never seen purity levels of a metal slow or speed up burn rate either by my memory. If the amount stored were simply making the metal more pure in essence then it still wouldn't change your burn rates you would just draw that much more. I think this concept truly described and explains Miles feats better than any other options. A shotgun goes off in your face and you heal it as the shot passes through your flesh. This is healing beyond anything we have seen in the cosmere. The difference between having an arrow slice its way through your head is magnitudes less trauma than a shotgun blast or any bullet passing through for that matter. It seems wrong when you apply it to steel and the true danger of a speedster like that but for gold it makes perfect sense that it works this way. But this discussion has nothing to do with fairness just like it doesn't when the answer is soulcast aluminum around your head while hiding in the cognitive realm. My point is purely based on what we have seen in the books... compounding gives access to so much power that the compounder can waste and waste and never worry about running out. To suggest anything less I really need to see ideas of a cap. "You are only allowed to gain 20x your base in any attribute when compounding". I don't think it exists. If compounding worked the way you describe it then Miles 30+ full metalminds would have been able to be burnt nonstop because they would take so long to burn as they were being actively hampered by shards to limit his healing that we wouldn't have seen his feats.

So does the spiritual realm feed nothing to compounding? So I found these WoBs as well. Honestly I don't know what to think. I feel like a lot contradicts itself. If investiture is stored evenly in a metalmind which being able to split it in half suggests then a compounder would be better off storing for a second into a large metalmind and then enjoying compounding it by burning it for 10x attribute forever. But to multiply something you have to have something else there. So I feel like it is also wrong to suggest that a metalmind would waste its power when compounding it that is: 1. As full as you can possibly make it 2. Being powered by a shard in the form of drawing spiritual power due to compounding. I kind of feel like there is a ton of back tracking in your logic over the last couple of pages and I am trying to understand your thought process for this. Does it matter how full the metalmind is? Does the spiritual realm multiply what is in the metalmind? Does having a more full metalmind to burn allow you to get more power from burning it or do you hit a point where you lose power by burning your metalmind? I feel like the answers to these have to work with eachother to make something that is consistent. If a metalmind is turned into feruchemy being powered by allomancy and your net gain is 10x your base of an attribute no matter what then it doesn't matter how much attribute is stored and you should store very little before burning it. If the amount of storage matters for your to get 10x the attribute (or whatever number it is) then you should be gaining more attribute based on what your stored and thus burning the bands would have multiplied Waxes speed by such an insane amount more than Marasis and for that much longer. I am getting lost in this idea that storage doesn't matter for power gain but it does matter when making the metalminds... very inconsistent. If compounding is net positive made out of a net neutral then how can you propose that the net gain is the same no matter how much attribute is stored? As that would lead to a world where full metalminds come out to be a net negative which is totally inconsistent with the books from what I have seen. My whole point is just that compounding allows for totally Ludicrous feats that we have never seen (aside from healing) due to TLR not being shown to use any compounded power really.

I pretty well agree across the board here. Healing a cold is harder than gluing a cut. We see trauma and think how horrible it is... but trauma is a mechanical broken thing usually and that is easier to put back together than to purge ones body of something like multisystem failure. There is soooo much that goes into trauma care. We had a person stabbed in the gut with a 12 inch chef knife come through the ER and once scanned it was determined that this thing ran directly under the diaphragm and hit nothing vital. The guy was in the OR for less than an hour to get it removed and went home the next day to finish his recovery there. I believe Wayne had a destiny and a high base fortune level compared to others as well. To be shot through fleshy bits of the arm would be less to heal than being shot through the spine. To be stabbed like that patient we had would take a lot less healing than it would have required if the GI tract had been hit and GI juices were leaking around in the gut. I think healing a severed artery would probably take less healing than a shattered bone... a broken hip won't kill you as fast as a sliced throat but soft tissue likely heals more efficiently than bone in a magical sense. And the spiritual self likely targets, directly, the space that is out of homeostasis until it has returned to it. Like triage, the magic will heal the most immediately life threatening wounds first.

I think @alder24 has a good point here. When storing your entire whole becomes sick and an issue. If a person were to store in a safe enviorment they could likely land themselves nearly comatose and septic while storing without killingthemselves as they don't have to heal back to get to normal they simply have to stop storing. I also think for this reason storing health actually gets to store way faster and easier than other attributes because it is the whole being stored and when tapped it is the wholes storage being applied to one specific area to bring it back to homeostasis. Each injury is completely different as well and Wayne never needs to truly heal the entire wound back to 100% so long as he is able to heal back enough to stop from dying and enough to continue being effective in a combat role he could be saving there as well. I picture a world where the majority of health goes to stopping the immediate death and then slowly trickling more healing into those areas to finish the healing up slower but still completing it. Health is such a broad area to consider. A person with a bulletwound needs a lot of immediate attention, 100% depending on where that shot is at, and once plugging the leak the healing takes weeks to finish off. But this doesn't mean that the severity and complications are as challenging during that healing process back to 100%. Everyday past the initial emergency surgeries the patient does better and better. Same with a lot of traumas. A ton of upfront attention is needed but it tapers off really fast as the body finishes its work. Looking at stuff like wide spread sepsis and cancers or full on ARDS or multisystem failure I think it would take far more healing to fix that. These patients spend weeks and weeks needing a gigantic amount of meds and constant attention. Its a totally different ballgame from traumas. But I think that is exactly the difference. When you store you are putting yourself into a multisystem deficit. I see the biggest hurtle for a gold ferring to jump would be, how sick are they willing to make themselves? For someone who isn't in danger and need of healing super often a small cold for a few days could probably do all the storage they need to get over a more major sickness later on. For someone like Wayne? I think Wayne is a bit of an outlier for a few reasons... 1. Wayne knows he needs the health. He has been in enough scraps that he knows every ounce of healing is worth... well its weight in gold I guess. 2. Wayne is a bit of a masochist. He is constantly looking for ways to punish himself because he doesn't feel like he is worth much and thinks he deserves the pain. These 2 points make Wayne a dangerous gold ferring. I bet Wayne is capable of pushing far past other ferrings ability to let themselves feel on the brink of death. When Wayne says it took 2 weeks laid up in bed for that health I would put money on his "laid up in bed" being far far different than the average humans "laid up in bed".

I think alder24 hit the nail on the head with the healing portion of Brandon being able to be flexible with it. I see it as the spiritual self knows what needs to be healed and there is an ideal there. Exactly how stormlight healing is described. When one portion of the physical is not lined up to that then gold feruchemy will, like stormlight, work towards perfecting that spot first or at least bring it back to homeostasis with the body as a whole and then once the body is at the same level it will try to lift the entire whole up a notch from there. I have been fairly consistent in past threads that I envision total damage to be a factor. If one is tapping gold or holding stormlight and a blade passes into their body it would require less healing to knit it up as the cut is happening than it would to regrow a head that gets poped like a zit. Not all tissue heals as easily as other tissue. Bone, as has been said, has a lot more going on for it than soft tissue damage. For any scene not specifically written from Wayne's POV it is also conceivable that he would use a bendalloy bubble to appear to heal faster. We know that if he heals it slower he can heal more. The man's kit is the second best option for fast regen in the mistborn world behind Miles himself. We know that attribute currently in a metalmind has to play a role in compounding. I can't speak for sure on burn speed but if compounding compresses what attribute is available to be burned and multiplies it by 10 as we had described to us thus far in the books then the feats are all perfectly understandable. You don't have any diminishing returns and you don't get penalized by tapping large portions at once. You get the exact amount of attribute per the metal being burnt at that time and it is being multiplied. You aren't draining it at all... the rest of the metalmind stays just as full per its current mass as it was per its beginning mass. Steel is the easiest one to calculate because it is the closest to actual numbers we have to use. We know she moved Mach 1 for a few seconds. We know that in order to move 37x faster than normal for just 2 seconds she would have to have approximately 60billion seconds of double time stored up. We know that there is no way a person could have stored that amount of speed without access to compounding and we know that with access to compounding applying the principle that attribute per gram will come out to 10x that attribute per gram burnt. Starting with the tiniest of metalminds and a small amount of storage and amping up to something 10x larger over and over again could easily compress this much attribute in whatever amount of time you need to burn the total amount of metal X that you want to compound. And they can do this with multiple metalminds at once. What was 2 seconds of Mach 1 could have been 7 days of Mach 4 for Wax had he burnt it. You take that alone and it isn't surprising how Miles was able to do what he did with his plethora of metalminds... how many volleys from the firing squad did he instantly heal with just the metalminds that were hidden in his body they couldn't remove? A thing I have realized through this is actually how dangerous burning metalminds can be. If you don't have a way to store all of that added investiture that is being wasted you could really hurt yourself. I am not entirely convinced that the bands had every metal. Had marasi really tapped everything as much as she could she would have BBQed those next to her as well as grown so large that she couldn't move (unless the creators of the bands took the time to separate just A pewter strength and compounded it alone so that they didn't end up with increasing mass).

Exactly this. The difference between Wayne and Miles is that Wayne can dilate time to appear to be healing far faster than he is. Where Miles fell and never tomatoed because he healed so fast that he just kept walking like nothing happened Wayne blew through a huge chunk of healing and he even healed it slowly in comparison. Healing rate is the same with stacking speed. What we saw marasi do in 2 second could last wax burning the bands 7 days and he would be going 4x as fast. Wayne would blow through a whole metalmind to heal as fast as miles did just by burning for a few seconds. Miles was wasting health at an insane rate. He sounds like he was burning gold nonstop to prevent sneak attacks. (Not just healing them but instantly so).

I just thought Kel was who made the bands. I can't keep it all straight sometimes. As for the burn time, even if it burns way faster then that is being compounded even faster and burning it would just make the steel runner that much faster. Again, this is just for the bands, and the math shows that it is within a weeks concentrated efforts to compound that amount. This also supports my theory that Bleeder may have never been a steel feruchemist and always just a coinshot with some unkeyed metalminds. The reason we aren't seeing how bonkers the compounding is could be a simple lack of understanding and knowledge. I don't know that Miles seems like the guy to hand all of his secrets over to the set. Hopefully the potency to compounding, in large, died with him. The Set would not be chasing F gold if it was common knowledge. The set would likely be chasing A gold and using unkeyed metalminds in shavings form.

I think the standard 10x or even 20x thing was lazy math for compounding so I wanted to dig deeper into just how invested the bands were. If there was 24cc worth steel on the bands of mourning that equates to about 188grams. If steel were to burn at a rate of 1g/hour that is a total of 676,800 total seconds of steel being burnt. We know that feruchemy can be doubled for half the time at its base. We don't have any idea what the diminishing returns are but we do know that marasi tapped so much attribute that she was leaking mist. If Marasi was moving just Mach 1 and no faster (some have mentioned Mach 7 in this conversation but I want to stick with just Mach 1 for this). The world record time for a female 100m is 10.49 seconds bringing the fastest women in the world to just over 21mph (not counting for acceleration at all). 762mph for Mach 1 divided by that 21mph is just over 36. If Marasi were the fastest woman in the world she would have to tap 36x her normal maximum speed to make that happen. In total the bands allowed their users Mach 1 for 2 seconds or so? If there were zero diminishing returns and the time got cut in half every time you doubled your speed then the bands held... the ability to double ones speed for at least 68.7 billion seconds. You have to cut that in half nearly 17 times to land on the 678 thousand seconds that it will take to burn that steel allomantically. And then compounding increases your attribute gain by 10x. For a compounder to burn the steel from the bands of mourning... each second the world's fastest female sprinter could move 170x faster than she currently does. 3570 mph or closer to mach 4.6. And they could do that every second of every day for more than a week straight. Compounding is beyond broken. I did assume that a BB at 0.3g would burn over 20 minutes which I think is pretty close to what we see in the books. I accounted for no diminishing returns at all in the tapping process for Marasi. At the rate she was tapping she could have been wasting more than double what she was using. (She did leak mist). I don't know that compounding brings with it any diminishing returns though I assume some probably gets lost in the process. This certainly explains how Miles can passively burn gold all the time and survive being shot in the face multiple times. And what we see from the bands is that you simply have to store 17x the amount of attribute for the burn time to achieve this. If kel stored 34 hours at 50% speed into a gram of steel he could compound that up to the 188 grams in the bands over just a couple of days. Granted you are at a week now with the bands and to compound them to 1880 grams would take that whole week of storing which may be tedious but a compounder with knowledge of how to do it like Miles and the determination could certainly have made a suit of armor in the years it took Kal to advance in his order. I did all of this thinking in the shower this morning so I am totally open to hearing where it is wrong but I definatwly think it demonstrates compoundings ability. And fullborn have had their entire lives to play with their powers. Of course they can tap and burn and store multiple metals at once. I won't go as far as to say every metal at the same time all the time but for steel alone (because it is the easiest to get numbers for) illustrates that Marasi's 2 seconds at Mach 1 could have been compounded by Wax for 7 days straight at Mach 4+

I kind of feel like we must agree on more than we disagree on because I think 20x normal through compounding at a burn rate that would take days is far more than enough to win the fight. 20x 200lbs is 4000lbs. Shardplate comes in at about 1400lbs. 20x 24mph = 480mph... again you said the bands would take days to burn... thus 480mph for days. 20x a 400lb deadlift (800-1200lbs for pewter burn / flare) would bring it up to strength capable of deadlifting 8000 / 16000 / 24000 lbs again capable of burning it for days. 20x connection to the forces of nature as they actually exist not how the radiant wants them to exist. 20x mental speed Even limited to that box is the fullborn not enough to crush a radiant inside of its armor? And this isn't tapping for sonic booms. Why does a person need to tap for a sonic boom and waste all of their stores in one go when they can constantly exist as 20x the person they are normally? The advantage is already so strong and that is just burning your metalmind at the painfully slow rate of not being allowed to flare or using duralumin.

Certain metals burn faster than others. We know that making metalminds makes new alloys (in a sense). I think the math, while underselling feruchemy and compounding, is a large point in favor of allomancy stores being far more capable and long lasting than previously speculated... and also makes duralumin pushes and pewter / duralumin slaps far more dangerous if you simply have a larger store of metal in your tank. By Miles being more dangerous than Rashek I just meant that Miles use of compounding and temperament would be far more dangerous. Rashek didn't seem too interested in squishing Vin like a bug... I don't think Miles would have died to her had he been the one with her in his grasp. As for the bands of mourning, if you placed the bands inside of your body and burnt them you would still have nearly 10x the amount of attribute usage that we saw in BoM. How much of each attribute do you really have to use to make yourself a threat to a radiant? Even taking away steel speed (should we take away a surge?) We would end up with a person strong enough to move a body that weighs at least the same amount as plate and throwing hands as well as having steel / iron a to play with that is going to pack more of a punch than your typical 100-200lb mistborn. As was said by others, Marasi and Wax both went along the lines of "tap everything" and ran out. So much of the bands were totally wasted. I am sure that with how slowly a shaving of metal burns and how insanely packed it can be with attribute that they could use enough to become more capable than a suit of plate while burning or flaring the bands with no need to burn duralumin. Kaladin was able to dance around and win vs a full shardbearer. Granted he likely had access to stormlight at the time but clearly a perfected body that was in noway magically enhanced with outside strength and speed was able to best a shardbearer. The bands increased Wax's steel allomancy to the point of seeing the entire world at the spiritual / steel sight level. What would nicrosil do to pewter allomancy? You may take away F steel but you still have a person armed nicrosil boosted abilities and the ability to think super duper fast. The train station fight from limitless comes to mind. You are going to see and be able to react to every telegraphed move and again... pewter actually enhances your speed (even 20% faster than a normal human is more than what kaladin had in his fight against the shardbearer). Add in electrum to show you the no go options of your future and it is the poor man's atium even more so. Spook likened his tin senses to feel the movements of his opponents to atium... your fullborn doesn't have to be a tin savant to tap so much feeling/ proprioception to pull these feats off combined with thinking at limitless speeds. Saying no atium is a big ask as the only fullborn we have seen on screen had more than enough to last an army of radiants. Saying no steel is a new ask to try to balance it even further but I still don't think it is enough to sway the battle. Taking the two most impacting portions of the fullborns kit while leaving the 5th oath fully intact is interesting. If we remove adhesion from the 5th oath kit how many metals would be needed to compound to win the fight vs windrunner? Or gravitation? I am cuious and think it would be interesting to discuss the minimum powers compoundable to beat the 5th oath via spikes or medallions. A mistborn with access to 3-5 feruchemical metals could probably do it just fine. I think a feruchemist would be able to do it with even less spikes than that. This is because the attribute is evenly distributed throughout the metalmind. If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it packed inside of a shaving of metal that takes 1 minute to burn then you can transfer that to a metalmind 10x that size in 1 minute. If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it is stored in a ring that will take 12 hrs to burn then even on a loop of storing what is burning you have lost a ton of efficiency. This is strictly the fastest method to have the highest concentration metalminds possible because compounding doesn't work on tapping at all. It works based on your allomantic burn rates. The smaller the metalmind > the faster you can burn it > the more power you get from it. Same principle when diluting medications. If I give 1ml of epinephrine that doesn't tell me much at all... it could be 1ml that does nothing at all because it is so diluted (store a few minutes of an attribute into a large ring and burn the whole ring only netting you 10x what you put into it over the half a day you are burning) or that 1ml of epi could straight up kill the person because it was not diluted at all (a metalmind that has hours of an attribute but small enough to burn off in just a couple of minutes netting you 10x that attribute in just a few minutes). I don't believe that burning metalminds leads to the same diminishing returns as tapping them as you are using the spiritual realm to directly fuel that attribute at that rate. Another thought would be... do compounders gain more attribute if they are more powerful with a specific allomancy metal? Miles estimated he got 10x more from burning than tapping the same amount and he is 1300 years separated from lerasium. Would a lerasium mistborn draw more attributes from the spiritual realm while burning a metalmind in the same way that Elend was simply a stronger mistborn than Vin in every way minus practice and development? If this is the case then your nicrosil compounding actually makes storing and compounding faster and better. Elend was able to burn metals faster and got more benefit from them per ounce than Vin. He would be able to burn his metalminds faster and the spiritual realm would make burning them more potent. The bands already showed us that you can go beyond normal allomantic strength through compounding and if allomantic strength allows you to burn more efficiently and faster then fullborn gets even more appealing.

I know this is a few posts back but I want to find out how many metalminds you think are appropriate? The bands are small but being able to compound every metal says that getting the bands to that size would be the hardest part of making them. I am a huge sourdough fan and keep a starter rolling all of the time. I have gotten to a point where I just feed it enough to keep it happy and allow myself to make what I want. It is always fun when I hand out starter to coworkers and they report back with pictures of it getting out of control. With starter you mix equal parts starter water and flour. Every time you refeed it it should triple in size... people learn very quickly that if they aren't baking every single day with it they will have a ton of waste really fast (so I walk them through what we do for maintenance). Compounding works the same way except at a rate of 10x that which you burn. The limit to compounding is the speed with which you burn your metals and how full they are. There is totally a right way to compound and a wrong way to compound. The wrong way is take a partially full metalmind and burn it hoping to get the power from it. But the investiture isn't densely enough packed in it to make it worth it. The right way to compound is to store as much as you possibly can into a metalmind that is the size of a BB. Then burn that BB and store into something that is 10x the size of that BB. BBs burn fast so you would get a quick transfer and end with a metalmind packed just as densely but 10x the size of the BB. If it only took you 10 seconds to burn the last BB then you will be able to store into something 10x larger, keeping it just as densely packed, in just 100 seconds. Duralumin shrinks that down to zero. You should safely be able to hold onto a metalmind 10x the size of the bands of mourning and duralumin burn it near instantly to have a metalmind that is 10x more attribute than the bands. Brandon makes it clear that this is dangerous but I certainly think a fullborn could easily create a suit of armor and weapon sized metalminds as densely packed with attributes as the bands of mourning in the time it takes a soldier to progress through 5 oaths. I don't think the question is could they do it... Miles likely had dozens of metalminds spread throughout his body that were packed as near to full as they possibly could be. I have no doubt if Miles was a fullborn it would be far more dangerous than Rashek. Just like sourdough everytime you compound and don't use the attribute in between you are making it so much larger. How do you fairly limit a fullborn in the amount of storage they have. Especially if they are readying themselves for combat. When we saw Rashek he was the undisputed master of everything and had watched 1000 years worth of generations wither away and die... I doubt he cared about much of anything anymore. I guess that just comes down to how prepared are both combatants? Are they both coming to a fight to the death or do they just happen to cross paths while out for a morning jog? Sazed was a scholar and had the stores on him to do what he did... if he were a fullborn he could have spaced that out potentially 10x as long. I don't think compounding needs to boast its potential power... but I think tapping metalminds at high rates allow for more power in the alloted time than the compounding. And I really think the benefit here is that you can tap them that long while burning small portions and refilling all along the way... so long as you have metal on your person you can infinitely loop a high rate of attributes until the metalminds are, themselves gone. How many spheres would a windrunner bring to the fight? If he knew about it I imagine quite a few more than if he was just out for his morning jog. Point being, I think there is evidence that if given the same information about the fight and the same length of time to prepare, the fullborn will likely have just as much access to large metalminds (armor sized) as the radiant would have spheres sewn into all of their clothes. I think the edge likely falls on fullborns side with the exception of being about your normal business expecting no battles. In that case the standard wallets worth of gems and plate / blade always there likely edges out a feruchemist on a jog with jewelry on... but that fullborn can certainly still compound a ton of attributes for use while its happening and in an arena with preparation time, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that they could craft a decent set of metalmind armor.

Perhaps a galloping horse is slower on Scadrial, however this would be more than offset by the gravitational differences in growing up and adapting on Roshar vs Scadrial. If you put the Rosharan on Scadrial or the Scadrian on Roshar between the gravitational pull and the oxygen discrepancies advantages go to Scadrial each time. Stormlight perfects the body. If a person is already using 90% of their functional limit they would see a 10% increase. Someone who doesn't train like Shallan can see a bigger increase in strength % wise to her initial compared to Kaladin because her functional ability is untrained. The windrunner has the advantage of partial lashings to help them run slightly faster but even when bridge 4 was running with stormlight in their lungs I don't think it measures up to be Usain Bolt speeds sustained for a mile+ like we see with pewter. Plus f iron would offer the same advantage to the fullborn. Ranged surges are what the windrunner needs to rely on. Entering melee range is so far favored in the fullborns side that all of the frustration a person can feel in mistborn vs endless healing and a shardblade argument is sort of flipped on its head here. It all comes down to if a shardblade can stop F gold. F gold is in the same league as stormlight healing and compounding it should bring it slightly ahead... certainly with one being able to leech and the other unable to leech.