Tamriel Wolfsbaine

How much stormlight would be drained if one was to dump 50+lashings onto a rock? Plus manipulating the adhesion behind it. Seems alot for a single projectile. That gets into the measurements of needed investiture for outcome X which is the most fudged figure in any writing. Even Brandon falls victim to the "just need a little bit more... ah yes!" Phenomenon. Metals are a lot more cut and dry about how fast they are used. We would need pretty cut and dry amounts of each and cost of doing XYZ before we can really break it down. The rock is viable insomuch as it does not use up more stormlight than it is worth. That can't be accurately judged in theoreticals unfortunately. And in the theoreticals is where radiants win most of these. Because there is always room for a little more. Rocks aside on all of this I stand by my thoughts on coins being shot through and pulled back through a shieldless radiant and I stand by my thoughts that with a shield using a reverse lashing the mistborn can forever bounce away from the radiant with a single coin. The shield doesnt give the radiant distance closing powers. Radiants best shot is to hope they have enough stormlight to dodge and heal all coin shots they suffer until they eventually do close the gap and then cut the mistborn through the spine.

This is actually exactly why I chose Kaladin. He is as much an outlier for stormlight as Vin is to pewter. Taking our examples of what can be done from Kal in books and applying it while handwaving the examples from Vin is sort of what I wanted to avoid in this battle. Kaladin level stormlight and Kaladin with Vin levels of pewter. They are both outliers and Kaladin is the best combatant as far as soldiers go in the cosmere. As for the gravity difference. I agree with the reach advantage going to Roshar Kal. I think the fact that Roshar Kaladin is fighting against his own weight makes a bigger difference in all but shardplate. If Roshar Kaladin weights 220 on roshar he is suddenly 258.72lbs. If Scadrial Kaladin weights 195 he is suddenly 165.75lbs. Pewter already favors the Scadrial Kaladin in strength and likely speed. Now he is lighter on his feet. Roshar Kaladin is not gaining magical strength or speed and suddenly weighs 117% of his normal weight. Nearly 39lbs in this case. As far as horses and humans go.... the average male sprinters on earth are able to travel 19.52mph. As far as horse pace on earth a galloping horse could be going anywhere from 25-30mph. Even if we look at the lower end to make up for the fact that horses are slower on scadrial we are still seeing pewter arms moving 125% faster than their counter parts... and again in this case gait makes a large difference as Kelsier would likely be holding back in that sprint with Vin. Assuming Kaladin is Vin levels of pewter and at least the size of Kelsier he would likely out pace the average galloping horse on Scadrial.

So gravitation ignores air resistance? The entire purpose of terminal velocity is that there is a cap, that cap being the resistance of the air on the thing being shot out. Yes traveling faster would help to mitigate that. We are just playing with different rules now. The highest speed of a windrunner in the books was around 220mph using all of the tricks. Now we are breaking all of that on the theoretical of being able to break the sound barrier with the tricks. Why then wouldn't the windrunners be more effective at their jobs? Is the fact that they aren't doing that simply plot armor in favor of the antagonists?

We see Vin jump clean over hams head and the tip of his staff when sparring. She jumped 7+feet with pewter. Also the sprint across the dominance says a lot about pewters capabilities... as they were going the speed of a galloping horse (the slowest of the 2 was going the speed of a galloping horse). We see stormlight allow bridge 4 to pretty well sprint their entire race but there is nothing spoken for the speed. When I read it it seemed that they were faster than their fellow non stormlight companions, not because they were faster but because they didn't have to pace themselves. The same idea as pewter in neither feeling like they have to pace themselves but pewter specifically commented on moving at horse pace where we don't have a similar comparison from stormlight. I think that the shardplate would negate strength benefits but you can still only move it as fast as you can move your body. The increased strength of a mistborns fast twitch muscles suggest they can likely move their limbs faster snapping them harder and quicker through the air... no one is timing punching speed or how fast you can move your legs in the books but we know athletes can train for that in our world and it is via these fast twitch muscle fibers. The draw back to fast twitch muscle usage is it eats up energy and is only good for sprints... what we see is pewterarms sprinting 12 hours straight. It makes a lot of sense that the fast twitch muscle fibers are working at 2-3x their capacity as well which would allow for more agility in the plate and without it. I like hearing everyone's thoughts. Stormlight healing is a huge bonus. But healing uses up more stormlight. Each combatant given an equal part of stormlight and pewter the question is... can a pewter arm maneuver well enough to land enough hits more than the stormlight user to drain the stormlight fast enough. At an hour of each I would tend to agree that the stormlight user would likely edge out with blades and potentially with plate. If they each had 10 minutes worth we still wouldn't know how quickly the stormlight would be reduced per hit. Kaladins fight in the arena shows us that stormlight does get used up faster when healing. Thanks to plot armor he never heals so much that he has nothing left in the tank against an opponent who would still have plenty of pewter. I think the pewter arm could land a lot more shots in all scenarios. How much stormlight it takes to heal each shot is up for debate. Pewters lack of healing the 1 shot kills is definately a deciding factor for the shots they do take. Side question. Do you think the gravitational pull of worlds would change your mind? Both using deadplate / deadblades. Pewter Kal has trained and lived on Scadrial (100% cosmere standard). Stormlight Kal has trained and lived on Roshar (70% cosmere standard). They meet on a planet with gravitation of 85% the cosmere standard.

Multiple lashings can make you faster but your not shooting rocks at speeds equivalent to what the mistborn is shooting coins. Other factors come into play. After all of the math done showing how fast windrunners can fly you deny that if they could break the sound barrier they wouldn't have? Especially with shardplate to absorb any friction and heat that would be generated by that? If increasing your speed was as simple as stacking more lashings we would have seen it. But it isn't. You are still very limited by what the atmosphere around you is going to allow you to do. You will accelerate faster but you will not be outclassing a gun or a coin. However. Size matters in momentum. I agree that a sizeable rock would be a totally viable weapon. How large that rock is matters a ton and the mistborn will likely be able to dodge any rocks that are a threat at the speed of falling. I am a huge fan of Dr. Ashby and I am a huge believer in using weight and momentum vs maxing speed with light arrowheads. I also think that coins are a weak weapon choice for mistborn when put next to heavier shot options. They aren't aerodynamic and they have to hit ancertain way to keep their momentum going. I would rather see mistborn traveling with a pouch full of heavy 500+ grain ball bearings. I attribute Vins success with the belt buckle more to the weight of a belt buckle. I don't think that a coin would have given her nearly as much control. As far as the shield argument. Coin hits shield. Coin is stuck to shield via the reverse lashing. Coin now on shield becomes an anchor. Just as a coin would become an instant anchor if you smashed it into a wall and hit a chewed up piece of gum. Now that coin is on there and that is your anchor. It doesn't disappear. I can't read that page in WoK at the present. I know we have the bridge 4 run times and Vin running with Kelsier as a decent base for speed. I don't think the bridge 4 run times outclassed the Vin and Kelsier run and bridge 4 was a race where as the mistborn run was Vins top speed not Kelsiers. Running the length of a state over 12 hours and arriving at the same time one of them was holding back. Even a small change would cause them to stagger their appearance drastically. Vin shows a fairly casual jump of 7-8 feet and lands with no issues when she and Ham are sparring. Pewter is described as giving the agility and balance of a cat. Stormlight may offer more balance as it is perfected but perfected balance vs perfected balance is more a tie. I need to see the page you referenced for speed. I am pretty sure Kel and Vin would embarrass the bridge 4 members in their run though. The explosiveness of the fast twitch muscles being increased by 2-3 times on pewter are going to offer more to the mistborn in terms of speed and close quarters combat than the perfected body of stormlight. Not to discount the shardblade. But they do move faster than their stormlight fueled counter parts. Each movement is more powerful as well. And if you combine all of that with their gravitational discrepancies based on which planet they are on pewter comes out on top.

I wasn't wanting to talk about lashing the shard. Simply that the only way to have a shield that was pulling shooting coins to it without becoming an anchor for the mistborn to run from via steel constantly was if you could lash a shard. If a reverse lashing has the strength to pull bullets off of their course I imagine it is going to hold them there for a time. Meaning that wherever they are pulled to becomes a new anchor. It doesn't engulf them into nothingness. The coin and metal still exist. If that is a shield you are carrying then the mistborn has a moving anchor with you guiding it until it is dropped which removes your defense against their ranged attacks. I simply was pointing out that the only way to circumvent this would be if you could lash a shard (but investiture resists investiture) then maybe you could drop the shard dropping the coins and resummon it for a next volley. I wasn't using it as a legitimate option just a hypothetical to stop yourself from offering the mistborn an anchor to push off of continuously.

No surges. Kaladin with pewter vs Kaladin with stormlight. With shardblades. Without shardblades. With plate. Without plate. With all shards. Without any shards. I assume shardplate removes most of the strength benefits of pewter but pewter would maintain the speed advantage and they both offer near perfect balance.

I don't know that we will ever agree on this. Windrunners aren't breaking the sound barrier or traveling FTL because you can't shoot a rock like a bullet through the power of gravity. If it were possible then it would have happened at this point. I can't accept that stormlight protects them from emotional allomancy for the simple fact that there isn't a single WoB saying otherwise. The only WoB provided stated that the radiant shouldnt leave their helm behind if they want to resist emotional allomancy. It is interesting he even says don't dismiss your helmet... I assume that refers to a radiant of at least the 4th ideal as dismissing your helmet isnt an option for someone who has dead plate. Stormlight doesnt provide protection against emotional allomancy. Vin tore through 20 men with a belt buckle. Using the push and pull of steel and iron. She can generate enough momentum with it to pass a non sharp object through people to the point where that is her sole weapon in the confrontation, and she was able to execute the room of haze killers. The windrunner can continue moving in other directions but it doesn't change that the mistborn is going to continue to have access to all of those coins so long as they pass through him. Catching all of the coins in your body so you can heal around them and the mistborn doesn't have them anymore is a poor option for the fact that you can't really choose what bullets lodge inside of you and which ones don't. The reverse lashing on the shield is going to give you a coin on your new anchor or a coin you can continue to use in other ways. There is no realm where having a wooden shield with a reverse lashing negates all of steel and iron at once. As soon as that coin touches the shield it is an anchor. If the reverse lashing pulls everything to it until they hit it and then they all fall down then you still have access to them. But as long as there is a lashing pulling things to it it becomes a new anchor. A coin getting lodged inside of it only makes it more so. My argument isn't necessarily that the mistborn wins here. It is that there are tools that are handwaved away in all of these discussions that give the mistborn more chances to win than we previously saw. Any attempt to redirect a coin does not take it out of the fight, which is something that had been alluded to a lot in this thread. Aside from absorbing the coin inside of themselves the coins are still in play. Kaladin with stormlight beat the shardbearer without being hit. Pewter gives more mobility / strength / balance than stormlight so it is not outside of the realm of possibility that pewter can fight shardbearers without getting hit. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that a pewterarm can fight a radiant with stormlight without getting hit. Pewter outclasses stormlight in everything except healing. Kaladin won without the need for healing and I am pretty certain Vin/ Kelsier could have accomplished the same feat and even done it cleaner in every way.

Brandon said that the windrunner would likely win in an open arena. Me touching that was because you specifically stated the radiant could put all of their stormlight back and hold it for later. Which the mistborn can do better via not drinking a vial or two and/or stopping the toggle button that is burning metals. The entire strategy for a windrunner to win is to constantly have enough stormlight to manuever and heal. If they stop using stormlight while the mistborn is within striking range it is suicide. My argument was that a shield (wooden or not) that is studded with coins as the windrunners defense is actually not going to work as it offers the mistborn the chance to push and pull on the shield now. 1 coin stuck to the shield makes it so that the heavier windrunner garuntees that the mistborn never lets them touch them. The option to stop it is to summon your spren as a shield and reverse lash it (if this is possible given investiture resists investiture and spren weapons are more like aluminum weapons than wooden ones), but then what happens when your spren is no longer a shield? The coins are back into play. We have visited this a couple times. We will never agree on it. If WoB states explicitly that a radiant would want thier shardhelm to stop emotional allomancy then the argument for stormlight is pretty much pointless. Stormlight isn't going to stop them from having their emotions pushed of pulled. It may help them keep their head on better than Straff Venture but it is not copper. And a radiant not being unstable already is the outlier not the rule. I'm gonna use this one again further down but what Vin can do with a belt buckle should actually point to it being more dangerous off the radiant than on it. "She shattered the window with a slap. The soldiers that waited beyond jumped backward, spinning. One wore a metal belt buckle. He died first. The other twenty barely knew how to react as the buckle buzzed through their ranks, twisting between Vin’s Pushes and Pulls." I don't think that is how it works. All things hit terminal velocity with gravitation or else we would have Kaladin breaking the sound barrier by simply stacking lashings. That is the difference between dropping a bullet off a building and shooting it out of the gun. Steel is shoving. No matter how many lashings gravitation is always only going to be dropping. For rocks big enough to be a threat at those speeds they would be pretty easy to spot by the mistborn and a small pulse of bendalloy would give plenty of time to assess the situation and adjust accordingly. You dont need thousands to do what I describe. One coin passes through the enemy and then you drag it back the same way. A series of pushes and pulls turns 10 coins into 20, 30, 40, 50 and more holes. Vin destroyed 20 men with a single belt buckle proving that it can be pushed and pulled even when behind a person. Yes if some coins lodge into the windrunners body this would be a loss for them but then the windrunner has to deal with the fact that there are metal chunks moving around inside of them during every move they make and tearing them up more and more. More and more chances for there to be chunks of metal in the way of regrowing blood vessels or muscles or bones... if anything this is going to drain stormlight faster as having shrapnel in your body getting moved around by every movement you make is causing constant damage. If they heal like wolverine and push the metal out then the mistborn has it to use again. "She shattered the window with a slap. The soldiers that waited beyond jumped backward, spinning. One wore a metal belt buckle. He died first. The other twenty barely knew how to react as the buckle buzzed through their ranks, twisting between Vin’s Pushes and Pulls." Yes it can. I am not talking about pushing a wooden shield. I am saying if you reverse lash the shield and drag coins to it then you will be making a metal anchor by creating a nice studded wooden shield for the mistborn to use. I'm saying steel pushing off of a moving anchor point a few times when it gets to close is going to last a good while. I guess if the windrunner doesn't get bored and change tactics with a single lashing forward towards then eventually it may run out of steel but it has other metals and the entire time can be using other options to attack the psych of the enemy and wear them down. Shardblade isnt an insta win. We see normal people without pewter overcome shardblades in the books far more often than we see normal people overcoming a pewterarm in the books. Shardblades can be worked around... Kaladin did it and the idea he was using some stormlight is (as far as I know) not verified and even if he was it was so inefficient that it was more him than it was the stormlight. I agree the shardblade to the spine is as much a 1 shot as leeching a radiant and pewter knocking their face into the back of their skull. But not every shot from a shardblade is going to land. And not every weapon used even from a spren is going to be the I win button. You still have a person who is 2-3x as strong, moving nearly twice as fast as a normal human and with nearly perfect balance and control over all of their movements. I have never said that it was even in melee range... it is always tilted more towards the radiant but the idea that that means every fight that closes goes that way. A mistborn with pewter is still a dangerous threat that should be taken seriously.

Stormlight being returned to gemstones is the same as pausing combat in which case the toggleable advantages of allomancy really end up winning. Yes. The Rosharan either acts as an anchor for the mistborn to flee from (like trying to force 2 repelling magnets against eachother there). The mistborn actually gains advantage in the cat and mouse game by the potentially faster moving windrunner because he can simply push against it over and over again. Then if the radiant gets smart and attacks from above the mistborn has the ground to anchor and the radiant goes tumbling away instead. I don't think the radiant is going to run the mistborn out of steel in this case given how fast the stormlight gets used. The radiant doesn't win the war of attrition here at all. Mistborn slow burning metals can alert them of the radiants presence all the time. Mistborn can see in the dark and copper will help it hide when it comes in for a back stab in the night. Maybe the spren sees it maybe it doesn't. Either way you pepper a sleeping radiant with coins from range because even at night you can see it... the spren can maybe be a lookout but running away and resetting a fight plays in the mistborns favor everytime. Radiant really has to commit to the fight early and try to stop the mistborn from out maneuvering them (which again if you are defending coins with shields allows the mistborn to play repelling magnets with you all day). If the radiant doesn't use a shield they open themselves up to being drained of stormlight via a never ending onslaught of coins being pushed and pulled through their shardplateless bodies.... maybe they can close the distance now that they aren't a walking anchor for the mistborn... maybe one of the coins lodges in a bone and the mistborn gets flung back a bit. The radiant has to be able to heal through more wounds than just a coin shot here or there and the mistborn is going to be ripping shotgun effects of coins forwards and backwards until all of them are either stuck and lodged inside the radiant or they are too far away to retrieve them. Then the radiant has to have enough stormlight to compete against a pewter fueled mistborn with. If the idea is that the radiant is holding that much stormlight then the idea that the mistborn has enough steel for it isn't farfetched at all. The WoBs actually support the idea that a radiant just stashing his light and walking away is the worst plan for the radiant... as the mistborn is trained in the art of sneaking around at night and assassinating people. I still stand by and agree that in melee range the radiant has a better chance at walking away than the mistborn. But all WoBs on this are pitting assassins vs soldiers. I just think that the mistborn has advantage at range and has the ability to stay at range so long as the radiant isn't face tanking all of the shots, in which case there should be nothing stopping the mistborn from shotgunning handfuls of coins forward and backwards through the radiant as they close the gap. I really think the radiants best chance at closing the gap is to somehow glue all coins to the floor and be running the fight totally naked. Otherwise the mistborn can use the radiants efforts closing the gap as propulsion away from the radiant. Can you set a reverse lashing on an item while simultaneously lashing it forward to send a magnetized boulder outwards and follow it vs the mistborn? Still offers the mistborn a new anchor but 1 anchor to work around is better changes for the radiant. Advantages in flying speed may be the radiants. Advantages of flying maneuverability are definately the radiants. Advantages in stay away from the person flying so long as they have metal on them are 100% the mistborns. And again, if the radiant gets frustrated (which could be being soothed and rioted to be a downer) and decides to pack up and go home... the mistborn has all the advantage in the world. Like an owl and bloodhound put together who can hear any use of surges and can make the spren do something outside of their normal in a coppercloud whatever that means.

I think the aluminums effect against healing would become apparent pretty quickly. In fact with all the things aluminum is in I imagine shrapnel just about anywhere would contain some amount of it. Can't heal around it... its random who will get a shard lodged in the wrong spot but it will cull magic healers quickly.

My interest was instant when I heard of constructs. I love the idea of a thing in the world being comparable to shardblades and plate. Not necessarily that I want aether roseite to be able to cut magically or anything... but just the ability to withstand strikes from a shardblade and the ability to make heavy bludgeoning weapons to hit back against shardplate offers one of the first legit options in the cosmere to answer it that aren't "be fullborn" or "be godking make your own plate and blade". Add on bendalloy compounder and you have a legitimately viable option for fighting against roshar.

So humans learned quickly to build plastic guns vs magneto. How long before they figure out aluminum weaponry against anyone with healing capability? Being invaded gives humans the upper hand no matter what. Mobilizing people to ramp up production would only work better and faster now than it has in previous wars. If aluminum was discovered to be an aid in this battle we would ramp up production and have aluminum weapons and ammunition in soldiers hands so fast it ain't funny.

I imagine that the coins a mistborn has would be limited although the idea that only coins can be used as weapons is silly. Any metal the windrunner wears will hurt it in the end as well. Any metal on the shield it uses to reverse lash protecting it from coins will hurt it and once a coin has been lashed to the shield as a defense the windrunner has to choose to drop the shield or be a moving anchor point for the mistborn to play with. Either the mistborn runs the windrunner out of stormlight via fleeing from the shield that has been peppered with metal using that same shield as an anchor or the mistborn tosses the windrunner around with that shield. Either way steel lasts longer than stormlight and if the windrunner wants to get close to the mistborn it will have to drop its protection from the ranged capabilities of the mistborn. As far as healing goes I still have to think that the more damage that needs to be healed uses more investiture. Soft tissue damage should take less healing than regrowing bones and nerves and such. I know there will be some pushback on that but I would love to see how Shallan healed back getting duralumin headbutt from Vin vs just an arrow in the face... Given the differences in structural damaged needing to be reformed or grown back. (Thoughts on whether the head would just grow back and the nubby bits fall off or if it would just try to reknit everything due to so much being attached still just in paste form?) Coins would eventually cut through the windrunners healing capabilities as well. We saw Vin tear up a room of people with a single belt buckle. There is a massive fallacy if people seriously believe shooting coins from the mistborn will be limited to just the coin pouches initial capacity. Each coin can cut into and through the windrunner a number of times. Shotgunning them into and through and then yanking them back again is a sure fire way to burn some stormlight out of a windrunner. Likely the mistborn won't start with the attempt at overkill. But also unlikely that the windrunner will hold onto the shield once the mistborn starts using the coin stuck on the shield as an anchor point to keep distance. Once the shield is dropped the windrunners defense is gone unless they want to fight on the ground. Then the mistborn has anchor points all over at which case their mobility shoots through the roof. Without a shield and attempting to be mobile in the air is the worst spot for the windrunner to be. Can a windrunner use their living shard weapon as a shield for reverse lashings? Investiture resists investiture but even if they can as soon as it drops the coins are in free fall again and in play for the mistborn. Close quarters everyone is right. 1 shot potential vs a few hits needed (though I still think one hit or touch from a mistborn with chromium and pewter will be enough to end the fight). Spears are longer than mostborn weapons but also suffer from not being all blade. Once past the tip the radiant better change tactics fast. And once in range it is literally 5 seconds worth of atium until the radiant is leeched of everything and dead. But atium makes the fight trivial anyways so it is excluded. Still leaves you with a magically enhanced man vs a magically perfected man. Mistborn is stronger and faster and better balanced. Instead of arguing Kaladin vs Kelsier or Vin as the judge between stormlight vs pewter we should measure Kaladin with pewter vs Kaladin with stormlight. The pewter enhanced kaladin is going to outpace the stormlight enhanced kaladin in every single category short of just healing capabilities. One touch to the spine is all the shardblade needs. One touch with nicrosil or chromium is all the mistborn needs and that isn't tied down by shot placement. Still the shardblade is deadly. I think it is closer to 50/50 than it is to 99/1 though. Even a sacrificed limb allows the mistborn to keep going. Once the windrunner is out of stormlight via leeching there really isn't anything they can do. A longer weapon won't help them in that range and they cant skip or resummon their blade while being touched by a leecher. But if done right the mistborn hopefully doesn't ever have to be in shardblade range anyways. Every coin that is defended against adds to the mobility of the mistborn and every coin not defended against can be torn through the radiant many times burning through their healing quickly.

How long could you hold onto a weapon made of it then? Does it grow and dehydrate you until it is complete and then no longer need to be fed in places without the fields? Or does it still require more from you to maintain it for a prolonged time? How fast can they grow? Does it require more water to make one grow faster or is it pretty explosive and instantaneous no matter what? In speed would a weapon made from roseite be able to pseudo skip like a live blade? Dropping it and regrowing another in time to still hit an enemy attempting a parry?

I am trying to gauge how invested objects are. When you make a roseite object it is funneling in investiture from the spiritual realm right away. When you are on a planet like scadrial, if you make a roseite object and drop it then it turns to dust. This has to do with a pseudo atmosphere of investiture or something? I am curious if combining the 2 systems would work at all for keeping roseite items around longer. I know investiture resists investiture. I assume that when making a roseite weapon there would be a lot of investiture being funneled into it. How long does that stay that invested? Is it until you let it go or just until it stops growing? A bit of theory on possible options vs shardblades... Does a roseite weapon resist a shardblade? How long would it resist? Is its resistance capped after it has grown and you get a few precious seconds to resist a shardblade as you grow the roseite? If so could you pour breaths into it and awaken it to create your own shardblade at that point? Would this require the same 9th heightening as awakening any other rock? Or would a roseite weapon be able to stay highly invested enough to resist a shardblade so long as you had the hydration to keep feeding it? All of this can be applied to the exoskeleton power suits as well. In a place where there is no field of investiture would you be able to maintain any roseite structures via filling them with breath? I guess I am trying to figure out when the item becomes an invested object and when it becomes a mundane crystalline formation with no investiture to resist investiture or a shardblade. Side question. Would roseite be able to hold stormlight? Would a mace / sword / power armor set made out of roseite be able to be filled with stormlight and would that keep it invested enough to resist magical blades? Gotta ask because bendalloy compounding aetherbound sounds like an endless fuel tank for your aether creations. So long as you hold them can you continue to funnel hydration to keep the investiture flowing or would it fall off completely and lose all investiture once grown to what you want and then become a totally normal gem stone / object?

If you had enough hydration stored up via bendalloy could you keep feeding a slow trickle to a construct to keep it highly invested or is that against the way it works? So gold won't keep fueling it. For that you really need some bendalloy minds filled with hydration.

I know this is likely a lot of speculation but I am curious about aetherbound in combination with bendalloy feruchemy or compounding. Does bendalloy allow you to store hydration as well as food? Could gold compounding heal your body through the dehydration and help to fuel roseite constructs? Also how do we think roseite armors and weapons would interact with shardblades? What level of investiture is the constructs being made with roseite? Or is the investiture only present as it grows and then it becomes like any other object?

So I don't really need to argue the math. And I am not trying to come off as contentious. I do know that conservation of momentum is intentional in iron feruchemy. That simply states that you slow as you get heavier and you speed up as you get lighter. Wax certainly doesn't need to take off into orbit to demonstrate that it is possible. As for energy... WoB specifically states potential energy is shed with iron feruchemy but momentum is preserved. I know pewter is pewter and iron isn't pewter. However WoB clearly states that you get stronger relative to your weight. It has its own diminishing returns as well but this is why Wax and Sazed don't crush themselves when they increase weight by a ton. I don't want to draw out a huge discussion on the math. Iron feruchemy has gotten me spicey a few times because I want all logical math to work for it. Again WoB explains that it is a tricky part of the magic and even Brandon had to surrender to "because magic" to make some things work. No math in these spoilers just the Word of the cosmere god. Take it for what its worth. This WoB is where he says they conserve momentum but are breaking the laws of potential energy. All of the others are really icing on the cake and very eye opening to what is one of the more challenging powers to explain and understand. I have had to eat a lot of crow on iron feruchemy and I'm not trying to feed crow here. Just showing that certain laws of physics are trying to be kept in feruchemical iron where others are very specifically not being worried about. I'm not a physicist. I just breathe for people and see a lot of traumas (see my cadmium posts and that is where my passion and desire for scientific accuracy is found). Again, even there, I just need to accept that sometimes the magic in the books will break laws so we can have a cool story. Purely flying as a ferring would work. This example is specific to a winged suit and would be more like a bird flying. Following the logic in these WoBs a ferring could survive a free fall. I know my look at the physics is ignoring parts of it. I get hung up on conservation of momentum and the speed changes while not paying as much attention to the energy because that is what has been evident in what iron does anyways. The laws of energy are WoB confirmed to be broken with iron feruchemy where conserving momentum is specifically said to be followed. As for all of my other metaphors and examples they are because I am a simple man. I have seen many broken bodies beyond the point of help. I like shooting and cosmere novels and thinking up nerdy character concepts for head cannon cosmere games. No hard feelings at all. I enjoy the firey math posts because I can always learn.

You aren't taking all examples from the books into consideration. If Wax or Vin or any other mistborn falls from 500 meters and uses steel to suddenly push a coin and not hit the ground how is that any different than hitting the ground? If a Lurcher is about to hit the ground and suddenly pulls on an anchor from above what happens to that energy? The magic fixes it. I have tried hard to math out iron feruchemy but it has never worked without accepting that magic fixes it. When Wax weighs enough to break through the ceiling how much energy was there? If he speeds up when storing part way through a jump why then didn't he suddenly eccelerate to a ridiculous speed when he fell through the ceiling and ran all of his metalminds dry? When he crushes the building why didn't he rocket off right after that weight fell off and he was still pushing? If I shoot my shotgun and it is braced against my shoulder it does nothing to me. If I am not holding it tightly against my shoulder it bruises it. How is this possible if damage dealt is such a simple energy ratio? Because your ability to absorb the impact changes. If Wax's timing is perfect enough in all examples to not die then why could another Skimmer not be able to pull off the same feats? If I tap weight so much that I completely stop my decent via conservation of momentum then how is it that that energy can do anything? Is the idea that as soon as I touch anything I will be the exploded elephant on the pavement? (I believe the books and their examples show it is momentum that is conserved not necessarily all of the energy). If Wax is 80kg and spends all day storing 25% of that he is walking around at 60kg all day long. Over the course of 24 hours he stores 1,728,000 kg. There is a breakpoint with the math that takes that movement from the fall from something that is deadly to something that is survivable. How many jumps you can make and survive is up to the math but the examples in text show that the magic makes up the rest for everything else. You aren't just increasing weight 10 or 20 times. You can increase weight 21,600 times every day you spend your day storing at 75%. Iron feruchemy breaks the rules pretty hard and the answer is magic. The math will never work perfectly but given the examples in the book I think the safest route to go down is that the Skimmer would live or die depending solely on what Brandon wants to happen for the story. The magic helps to absorb the energy from every foot fall or the anatomical structures are strengthened to fix it. I have read some responses that state iron allows your weight to be felt by everything in the world but you act like your weight is its normal bit. That would explain a lot but it would make skimmers so dangerous and have no need for weapons. A punch at 1 million lbs while your body treats it like a normal boxing match would be devastating. Wax likes to be 75%of his normal weight because he feels like he can move around easier and he feels lighter on his feet. Sazed has to drop his fists on his enemies because he can't exactly throw hands. These are great examples of your body not treating itself as normal and outline some limitations. But the opposites happen when we see Wax become so heavy to break through his floor without snapping every bone in his body. We don't see him jellyfy when he becomes large enough to destroy a building. Interestingly we don't see Wax being more prone to injury at lighter weights either. He says he doubles speed when he gets twice as light but outside of that conversation specifically we don't see it. In theory he should be able to use a single push off of the ground at a high weight and be able to send himself into orbit. So long as the planet is larger than he is he is the one to move in a steel push. Shoving a building down and it suddenly buckles then he is now millions of lbs potentially and he is moving. Certainly there is more energy in half a second of falling or pushing up at millions of lbs than what we see. He runs out of weight at that point. If he fell even half an inch at millions of lbs how fast should be be falling when he suddenly only weights 80kg again? If he pushed and it buckled and he moved up half an inch before running out how fast should he now be flying at 80kg? The examples in the books just don't support any real world physics without accepting that the spiritual realm is making up for things in the favor of the protagonist in each moment. To drop and be traveling 120mph at 80kg and then tapping to 1million kgs in the last moment then you are slowing yourself to 0.0096mph. Your body is now what? You aren't jelly from the weight because magic allows you to keep breathing and working when you are that heavy. Your bones aren't breaking and shattering from the weight because the magic solves it. There are too many examples of iron F proving and disproving the real world physics to say you are dying when being 1000000kg and taking a step or landing moving that slow. If it didn't then Sazeds hands would have exploded everytime he dropped them on Koloss. If physics worked right in world steel pushing and iron pulling would be deadly everytime you land given that they work more like a gunshot than they do a nice gental push. Magic exists in the world and it is usually shown as being sparing to the user in that you don't kill yourself with it when the laws of physics say you should die. What we know is it protects you and that momentum is conserved (sometimes except in the case of becoming a rocket). We haven't had the energy issue explained entirely and its a bummer trying to balance it.

You are right that the energy is still there. You are wrong that it would kill him. It would kill a 200lb man. It might kill a 2000 lb man. But if you tap so much weight that that energy is no longer a factor to your body then it is fine. The powder charge from my 45-70 generates so much energy that the 400 grain projectile it shoots will destroy any dangerous game you put in front of it. That same powder charge wouldn't be able to clear a 6lb cannonball out of that cannon. With zero resistance on it you would be lucky to see it roll at all. We see that Wax wasn't killed by the strain that is making himself so heavy that his push is crushing buildings. We saw Sazed capable of not dying when he moved and pressed his weight against the door. We don't see Bleeder and Marasi blackout or run into anything she doesn't want because their minds are sped up enough to process moving past the speed of sound. Feruchemy changes your body to withstand the magic that is effecting it so it doesn't kill you. A multi million lb Wax was not crushed by the weight it took to collapse a building. A multimillion lb Wax did not die instantly when he landed after breaking through the floor in his house to escape an explosion. Ferucheny changes your body to withstand the magic that is effecting it so it doesn't kill you. If a 16000 lb Skimmer is able to withstand the force and energy generated by walking a mere 1.5miles per hour then... Going from 200 lbs falling at 120mph (terminal velocity ish) to 16000lbs a foot away from the ground would slow him and turn that energy into the same energy as him moving a whopping 1.5miles per hour. Speed absolutely matters when discussing the potential damage that body would take even if the energy never goes anywhere. The same energy used to kill a 2000lb bison with a 400grain bullet being used to push a 6lb bullet wouldn't move it enough to make that bison take a step. Same energy. Just that the speed would be so low that it can't do anything. And if, skimming works in such a way that storing weight actually just drops the weight and doesn't change your speed (again all the evidence points to this given we don't see wax taking off into orbit or falling past the speed of sound or faster after his metalminds wear off) then we can say the Skimmer is safer than that even. What Wax does comment on is that his gaining weight changes his flying.... because he is slowing down when he taps a bunch. He never speeds up when he stores though. So you could jump off a building at millions of lbs. store all of that weight and not speed up, hit terminal velocity and tap to millions of lbs again to slow down to next to nothing, store it all again a second later and not speed up and then featherfall to the ground. It is stated that conservation of momentum is a thing with skimming but we don't actually see it work both ways. In the books it is only demonstrated in this manner. Something happens in the spiritual realm to shed the energy and momentum when you store weight but conserve it when you tap. And again. Because its feruchemy we see the skimming on screen protect the user from all of that weight and energy. If they can take a step at 16000 lbs without dying then they can safely land after tapping up to 16000lbs in the last few feet of their decent at terminal velocity.

So if you are falling at 120mph (roughly terminal velocity) and you weigh 200lbs you die... That is 176ft/sec that is quick. That 200 lbs turns to 16,000 lbs and you are suddenly only traveling at 2.2 ft/sec or 1.5mph. My thought is that momentum being conserved says that a normal sized man falling suddenly tapping all of his weight can slow down (near instantaneously mind you) to a fall of just 1.5mph and inches away from the ground. The changes that happen to allow your body to survive at that weight would be plenty to absorb what is essentially the same force as a normal foot fall for a person walking at 1.5mph at that same size. Easily survivable with the feruchemical padding. Other things to consider about why you don't have to start feather light... The inverse to the conservation of momentum is true. If a 16000lb man were jumping at a speed of 1.5mph and then he stopped tapping he should suddenly be traveling 120mph. We don't see this. I believe others in the thread have pointed out the idea that it only conserves momentum when being added to. Evidence by Wax not yet sending himself into orbit or becoming a pancake after his metalminds ran out when crushing a building... If momentum is only conserved when drawing weight from a metalmind and it instead acts like letting go of the falling ball from other examples when storing then we actually can argue that skimmers can free fall more safely than just relying on the magic of being 16000 lbs to stop their fall. You could step off of a building and fall as fast as you wish only to tap and slow yourself to a desired speed and then start storing again immediately after to take your new 1.5mph decent into that nice feather fall world. You don't have to start as light as a feather when skimming to survive a free fall. And you could store all of the weight required to play this game over and over by storing during the elevator ride up to the top of whatever building you enjoy jumping off of.

The reason I think it works in without the steel pushing is that you are slowing down at a high rate... sure the momentum is conserved but you also have magically reinforced body that is built to not be decimated by itself. If you jump at 200lbs and right as you are landing tap to being 2000 lbs you might keep all that momentum but it won't be enough to overcome the newly gained strength from being 10x that weight. As well as slowing to a screeching halt before hitting the ground. You could slow yourself gradually or keep slowing yourself for the last yards before hitting the ground. Double your weight to slow yourself by half, and then as gravity speeds you up again you can simply continue adding weight until you are so heavy and moving slow enough that the touchdown on the ground aided by your magically increased body structure keeps you safe. A Skimmer super jumper shouldn't need steel to survive impact. Sazed did featherfall and that is a viable option. It is not the only option. You can very easily jump off a building at 10x your weight. Store it all quickly and potentially speed up (unless storing is like dropping the ball in other examples) and then as you approach the ground start tapping again and land very slow and heavy and safely thanks to feruchemy protecting your body.

Yes. I love how Adolin was on the top of the world and the power creep just took off on him. He is still decked out in his hard earned T3 set from vanilla while everyone else is upgrading and raiding in wrath now (sorry for the WoW reference).

I have certainly pictured twin pillars set up to slingshot a lurcher up and out via pulling on both of them at the same time. Lurcher flying is definately cooler to picture than just the big jumps. Exactly as you said Spiderman swinging around town.