Tamriel Wolfsbaine

Please allow me a bit of story time before I get into the meat of my question here. I live in a basin. A very cold and very hot basin. Next week we won't break 0 degrees F and we have a day that is pushing -30. This is an extreme for the humans in my life and is hard. In the summer we have weeks above 100 and that is an extreme for the livestock and animals in my life it is hard. Obviously F brass is the answer for me and if I could get ahold of some medallions for the others it would be an answer as well. But my question is not about what Scadrial can provide instead I am curious about the limits of my favorite magic in the cosmere, all the way from Nalthis, awakening. We know that awakening items is to give them commands to do what a human might be able to to... to make an extension of one's self. We have seen awakening become so very much more than just that in the creation of lifeless who heed commands and a sword that even shards are weary of. I have always been curious about the extent of awakening to strengthen the things awakened. Lifeless seem to still be able to be cut and bled out, awakened cloth and ropes can still be cut... BUT stones can envelope bones and move and swords made of common metal can become the most terrifying weapon in the cosmere able to damage honorblades too. Do you guys think there are limits to awakening or do you think enough breaths can empower anything to do just about anything? If I awakened a cloak to keep me warm would it vibrate quickly creating friction on my skin or do you think the investiture itself can generate a warm layer? If I awakened a cloak and told it to hide me, could I make an invisibility cloak or a single layers worth of a coppercloud-ish effect to hide my aura and other magics I would like to use? Could an awakened monocle possibly be awakened to show a person the future or link a persons mind to see the spiritual or cognitive world / shadows around them? Could you awaken bandage rolls to stop bleeding and heal the wounds underneath them? Would things like this leech more investiture to work like we see from Nightblood? What are the limits to what we have seen? We see cloth pick up and toss humans like ragdolls. We see clothing catch projectiles and we see clothing absorb hard impact to protect the person underneath. If I have a rope capable of towing 1300 lbs and I have it wrap up a shardbearer in plate weighing in at 1400lbs could that rope still toss this 1400lb armored man around like said ragdoll? Does the investiture add to the maximum tensile strength of an item? If I asked a tapestry to burrito up a shardbearer in plate or a pewterarm would they be able to out wrestle the tapestry to get free or would they be restrained until I ask it to let them go? What if I command it to constrict them and kill them like a python does a rat? Would it continue to take more and more breath from me until it was able to crush the plate along with the man inside or would he simply be stuck in that burrito until someone let him out no matter how hard it constricts around him? We saw some awesome stuff in Warbreaker. I imagine arming full spandex body suits with weapons and then having an army of superpowered hollow soldiers capable of fighting and bearhugging my enemies to death... but dang it if all of these arent "RAFO and by the way I have no immediate plans to write anything about Nalthis." FOR THE BETTER PART OF A DECADE NOW!!!! I see such potential in that system but it is honestly one of if not the softest system in the cosmere.

My comment was a bit rushed. I meant they would be able to push off of an anchor or pull to an anchor depending on what was stuck where. Reverse lashings wouldnt have torn off a head unless the body was immobilized. To immobilize the mistborn would be difficult, and to lash it upwards at all would require touch which allows for leeching and the one shot potential. I dont have a ton of examples for reverse lashings other than the most obvious which was the volley of arrows and the shield at the end of WoK. I have a feeling that size matters in that as well. I dont think reverse lashing would really change the way the mistborn is going to move and if a coin gets pulled to the object in question first the mistborn can push and pull of it depending on its size. lashing are just dropping a ball. Steel and iron are yanking and throwing that ball. You can stack gravity as much as you want to but they are still just a push away from staying up. How many lashing do you suppose it would take to have the force of gravity on that mistborn be more than what their steel and iron can repel or attract against? That is the difference though. Wayne with all of Miles metalminds could likely heal being blown to bits. But I think Wayne would have to be consciously tapping that health and there comes a point where you cant do that fast enough... Plus you hit big time diminishing returns when pulling that much of any attribute at the same time. Meanwhile Miles was likely so adept at burning his metalminds that he wasnt tapping them anymore anyway. Piercings and swallowed metalminds were constantly on a slow burn. Slowly burning a metalmind is still pulling 10x the amount of attribute out of it. Miles was constantly getting fed enough gold compounding to beable to 100% instictively burn even when the off button was pushed. Miles healed things as they were happening (bones being knitted up as they started to fracture or his head being healed as the bullet passed through it.) Stormlight works quick but it isnt in that same ballpark. In the end I havent really replayed enough of stormlights healing to have a feel for how fast it burns through stormlight. My point with the head popped like a zit was really this. As a blade slices through you it cuts along its edge. The damage that must be healed is the soft tissue damage at the laceration sights. An arrow is the same exact thing. Healing a cut as it happens. Guns and blunt force work totally differently. A bullet passing through tissue causes that tissue to expand and recontract. The pressure changes cause wide spread damage not just a local cut directly around the spot. When you shoot a deer with a bow you want a clean pass through. Get those beautiful arcs of easily tracked arterial and hopefully foamy blood from the lungs and heart. When you open that deer up it is just a cut through the whole thing. Nice and clean (unless you are using specific mechanical broadheads). When you shoot a deer with a gun the entire wound channel and method of dealing damage to the inside of this animal is different. If you bash a deer with a stick it is likewise different. Stormlight can knit cuts quickly. I just dont know how quickly stormlight can knit all of the other things being broken at the same time. Liquid brain, skull in tiny pieces. Arteries, not just severed, but shredded. Your airway is full of pieces of... well your face not to mention your CNS probably isnt telling your body to breath anymore because your CNS is kind of gone. Stormlight doesnt just have to heal a cut with severe blunt trauma or a bullet wound. It has to heal all of the things. Regrow bones and clean out the airways, as well as growing a new brain to tell your body what to do. While you might be able to heal through it passively it would take way to long and unless you are blessed enough to get a killing blow while flailing around in the death throws you probably arent playing anymore. This is of course, if the cosmere healing has anything to do with how much actual damage was sustained. Hence why I said I think daggers are silly. A good old fashioned lead loaded or stone topped shillelagh would serve the mistborn far better. Daggers work so well for the stabby stab assassination and to add a covert feel to the mistborn series but Waynes canes are so much better suited for dealing damage and passing around death. A club to the head is no joke. When being swung by someone two or three times as strong as the worlds greatest sluggers it is devestating. Thank you for reminding me about Nalthis healing. I wouldn't have thought of it because it is the ultimate support ability in which you die yourself to give someone a life and that life can instantly be taken away from them again the second after they get healed.

I don't think a reverse lashing will help to pull a mistborn away from their anchor. If it is truly leashed to a spot that they can pull themselves to it then that is viable and if it isn't anchored they can pull it to themselves and further use it as an anchor elsewhere. I do think the mistborn in the air loses a lot. But it is highly unlikely they would be dying from fall damage so long as there are any blue lines anywhere. I appreciate these WoB. I didn't realize that about regrowth. That said in regards to decapitation it was specified to be extreme ends of cosmere healing. I believe the only thing we have seen survive a straight up decapitation was TLR. Cold compounding is the extreme end of cosmere healing with the exception of Hoid perhaps. If compounding and stormlight and hoid are all exteme doesn't it defeat the purpose of saying extreme? Whats left? A bit of pewter and a baseline F-gold? (Genuinely I don't know of other healing). Seems odd that more than half are considered to be on the extreme end. Whatever Hoid does is obviously extreme. Gold compounding would be next. Further down... and a good bit further down would be stormlight at higher oaths. Then would be gold feruchemy on its own. Pewter would be after that. We don't see any healing at all on Nalthis (though I predict it exists somehow). And I just haven't read anything else cosmere wise. But to put Shallan in the same boat as Miles I think is a pretty far stretch. Miles laughed at people as they landed killing blows on him left and right. Even with no metal on his person it took how many volleys from a firing squad to kill him? I think regrowing a brain will be a bit beyond what stormight can do in a timely enough manner for it to save you. Unless that person walks away afterwords. Between tin and bronze I doubt a mistborn would overlook that. Smell / hear / sense the magic.... You can't breath in more stormight if you have no airway to do so with either.

The point was if you lash the mistborn up he will fall safely with a coin. If you reverse lash the coin away from him he will have more than enough power to either take it back or use it as an anchor. I think the windrunners best strat is to make a pool of adhesion under the mistborn and hope they step in it. But if that was so efficient i question why we don't see it employed more often in books other than its too op to be fun to read. The rule of cool says that it is only viable when it is good for the story. I feel like the pursuer strat would be great. With the exception that if you touch the mistborn they will leech you. Also how does copper interact with outside investiture? I saw a WoB that was wonderfully unspecific earlier today about copper. Copperclouds mess with spren. They would also protect a mistborn from being soulcast and potentially interfere with the soulcasters work in the immediate vicinity. How would a sprens communication with their radiant work in a coppercloud? I found this compilation of WoBs here. Copper as an anti rhythm

I really need to reread the Vin headbutt. I am sure she felt it and I am sure it didn't feel good but it's like popping an egg on your hand... the shell breaking doesn't feel good. Once its all goo you are fine. And pewter (especially with that duralumin enhanced push) increased her density such that her head did not turn to mush. That scene is not to argue if it is a good tactic. It is pointing out just what is possible. An elbow or a fist or a foot or a knee are all body weapons that work better than a headbutt. They are supported by long bones and they are being driven by more musculature. They have no soft bits that they are whipping around giving themselves slight concussions with. Add a weapon of any worth and you are playing a more dangerous game. Stone loaded dueling cane... either the cane is popping or a head is. Whichever one gives out first is the loser. Stormlight isn't going to save you from a noggin blow that turns your brain and skull into a smoothie. It isn't an active healing process. I really want to reread the koloss fight scenes again. I don't disagree that radiants would be faster but the koloss exist for a reason. TLR didn't make them to be so stupid and slow that a standing human army should fear a handful of them. The Koloss were moved in and around to do that job exactly. Crush rebellions. We quickly turn back to the zigzaging insta death dart of living spren that noone can avoid except we see mistborn on pewter dance around larger and faster enemies often. Couldn't have said it better myself. If there is any metal the mistborn can land that easily enough. So we have a tug of war... something radiants deal with so often right? Their weight vs their opponents? Don't discount that mistborn have iron and steel. You reverse lash my coin and I will pull it. Even if I am falling I can hold on with a pull. Moash grabbed hold of a fused didn't he? Except if you have sticky coins on the ground or on a shield a mistborn can grab hold from range. Which is going to win the tug of war? A coin being pulled by gravity or the string attached to it yanking it back magically? If a coin is within the mistborns vision they have a way to play that game. There is no lashing the mistborn up and then flexing your way home because you picked up their anchors. They move outside of that. Gravity works the same way no matter what. If a lurcher can hug a ceiling against gravities will they can certainly hug your reverse lashed coin.

This all makes sense. My brain was going down the rabbit hole of "they can avoid negative effects of alcohol maybe the negative effects of savantism would be less as well". I guess noones spirit web is going to be protected from continual kinetic investiture usage. Would you say that Vasher was or is a savant in awakening or is the innate investiture a lot harder to become a savant in using since you just always have that and it is attached to your soul more than temporarily being used by your soul? I feel like going off of kinetic investiture that a person is used to always having brings them way down and they feel what is basically the DTs of the cosmere. But with biochromatic breath where you don't have to chase it necessarily you wouldn't have as much of detox from that thing that gave you the high. Compare that to getting a rush of getting 50+ breaths all at once. Biochromatic breath seems to almost work the opposite. Then again what is a drab if not a savant without their fix. Maybe it is just that everyone on Nalthis is a born savant but it is an always renewed source of investiture that doesn't have to be gathered up.

This is a point that I have to disagree with. Progression can channel as much stormlight as is needed into a wound to heal it or even res a buddy. Likewise gold compounding can be instinctually burnt to heal through just about anything. Passive stormlight healing from a non progressive radiant has far more limited use. I would say it isn't even as good as gold because you can't choose to tap all of your stormlight at once. I don't think kaladin at 3rd ideal or even Shallan at 4th ideal stand a chance vs Miles in a heal off. Maybe Lift and Renarin. But stormlight has to be able to nit a wound. Piecing and slashing wounds are different not only in their mechanisms, but also in what needs to be healed. Soft tissue damage would be far easier to heal than other damage. We don't see Kaladin get instant use of his arm back when fighting Szeth. It takes time. It does happen but it takes time. I would argue that that took at least as long as it would take to regrow a head. Progression is also in the word. You have to progress that healing which would naturally take place... perhaps stormlight gives some passive form of this but from all of my reading so far I haven't seen a case where a non progression based radiant can instantly will wounds to close or heal faster or slower. I know people will point to Shallan on this one. All I can do is say this... gun shots come into the ER and people have survived being shot in the face... arguably getting shot in the head by a bullet causes more damage to the brain than an arrow would. Arrows work via lacerating their way through. They wedge through bones and often leave a very clean wound channel (some of our mechanical broadheads aside). In the case of Shallan the damage to her CNS was likely far less than if someone got shot by any caliber round we have today. Noone gets brought in to the ER after their head gets blown off or squished by a tire... Noone. I stand on the fact that if Vin duralumin pewter headbutted Shallan her story would have been over. 4th ideal or not. I'm not arguing for the plate helm or anything. Just that passive stormlight healing for a non progression radiant is not enough to fix a liquified brain and bone smoothie. Here's my thought on the Windrunners we have seen. So many of them were bridge 4 before too. Just because Brandon isn't writing about everyone depression and PTSD... Noone comes through that ordeal untouched. Often the ones you would imagine are coping the best are just the best actors. Even the most victorious of soldiers carry with them the horrors of what they had to do to get to that point. You are a good soldier when you can set that aside and do you job. (Same thing when you just finished trying to save some kid who got hit by a car but your efforts are futile... but now you have to bury it and help the next person). The rioting and soothing are specifically built for that. To pull those emotions our of a person... no matter how much they are suppressing them. It is emotional allomancies entire purpose in the cosmere. Soothe what you don't want them to feel and riot what you do want them to feel. I think the range argument about getting around the blade is valid for the pewter usage though. Koloss were far taller and stronger than any radiant. Pushing 10-12 feet. Vin mentions inquisitors are at least 2 feet taller than her and she is able to maneuver around them as well. Yes the spren blade is the win con here. Give both a stick and the mistborn wins everytime. Too fast and too strong. Noone heals a smashed dome... not before the rest of them gets smashed up. Vin being an outlier is true but in none of her fights with other mistborn did she win by outmanuevering them in terms of her strength and her speed. It was more about finding ways to overcome her lack of a metal and she was able to do that time and time again. That is her plot armor... until preservation took her over. I would likely put Ham as a winner in a brawl between a 2nd or even 3rd oath stormlight user with just stormlight. The healing is good but without a shardblade the thug is just better. I wouldn't even bother with daggers if I had the power of pewter. Bludgeoning all the way. Wayne understands the danger of a good old fashion stick and he isn't even a pewter burner.

Is the ability to use Atium not an inherent part of the mistborns kit? It is exactly the same as saying no pushing and pulling. This is part of the argument that Roshar is more invested than Scadrial though. Roshar is so invested that god metal can instantly appear in the radiants hand and the mistborn lives on a world where either the people destroyed the god that metal belonged to or it was monopolized as a part of the economy. The mistborn piece of the original discussion was picked apart and put back together in a way that was impossible to start. To say a mistborn in Era 2 (which there were none) or to say a mistborn with access to all metals (never happened either) is asking to put a fighter in a ring that has never existed vs one who does. Not a huge difference between a world in Era 2 with a mistborn in it (because it doesn't exist) and a world with a radiant of the 3rd ideal with no spren blade. The closest thing we have of living entities who could fight at the same time with eachother would be Marsh vs a 4th ideal radiant. Marsh has access to compounded gold and steel as well as a host of others. He has access to atium still and stands a good 7 foot tall as well. I feel like we have all already agreed that atium vs 3rd ideal is in the mistborns pocket the majority of the time. A shardblade against no atium goes to the shardblade. I wanted to break down the differences between the magic and abilities of the 3rd ideal surgebinder minus their win con vs a standard mistborn minus their win con. Because no matter how many of these threads exist there is always a bias in it. And truly both are so close that it is one circumstance or piece of equipment separating them. Mistborn no atium >1st and 2nd ideal. 3rd ideal with blade > mistborn no atium. 3rd ideal with blade >= mistborn no atium but firearms (Era 2) Mistborn with atium > 3rd ideal with blade 4th ideal with blade and plate > mistborn with atium or firearms 4th ideal with blade and plate >= mistborn with guns and atium What is currently on scadrial and able to fight is likely > what is currently on Roshar and able to fight (because compounded steel is truly disgusting and makes me feel dirty when I think of comparing anything to it.) Strategy of murdering a person only really works for the mistborn because it would certainly be a broken oath for a windrunner. I have been pretty consistent and have even had my mind changed on these breakpoints but this is what most of these discussions come down to is weighing the sides of each. I really tried to keep it somewhat relevant by comparing stormlight to pewter and use some critical thinking to work around the shardblade without the atium because atium use is usually banned quickly in these discussions as it is the swinging factor in mistborn vs X. The god metals are op is not a shock. My point is that it is normal to ban out atium but heresy to discuss a radiant without their shards. I actually think the radiant has a decent amount of tools minus the blade to keep it pretty close. If you removed the blade > all and atium > all comments it could be a good discussion about what else is happening in the systems. I do think pewter gives the larger advantage compared to stormlight in everything but healing. I also think the windrunner in the open is a far better flier. I think the windrunner has a lot more options for improvised weapons but I think the mistborns improvised weapons are stronger. I don't think stormlight will protect the windrunner from mental allomancy and I don't think the windrunner has a good way to deal with leeching. I do believe the mistborn has powerful but limited ability to wipe away external and internal sources of investiture but it does require drinking more metals. I do believe the mistborns leeching ability would make a difference in the fight and I don't think that stormlight (not progression) can heal a persons head being popped like a zit. None of this kind of discussion can really thrive when its answered by a mystical blade that is routinely worked around in books but can zigzag around every move the mistborn makes (unless they have atium but thats op and banned). I believe that when Scadrial meets Roshar it is in no way going to be one sided. The living blades and plate will have work arounds as will the radiants have ways to deal with ranged weaponry and medallion tech running around like crazy. If it were so simply one sided it would make for a dreadfully boring story which really goes back to the real OP equipment .... Who did Brandon blanket with plot armor.

I feel like you aren't getting the spirit of my messages and replies. In the outlined setting the radiant wins more often than not. Nevermind the setting is literally hand crafted for the radiant to win. Open plains with no metal and no atium. My question was what would the mistborn need in an open field with no anchors and not allowed to use atium? So your argument here is that if I give the tools to the mistborn the radiant gets more too... I move to have the mistborn and the 3rd ideal windrunner fight eachother minus the use of any godmetals.

Which would still be a better case scenario for the mistborn. Pewter gives denseness to bones and just adds to their toughness all around. A hit from a hammer would be more survivable than a severed spine. The entire argument for the sword being the win condition is that it is a 1 shot weapon with a spine / head shot. Being able to take even a few more hits will sway the pendulum closer to the mistborns side. I again agree with this. There is likely no way of protecting yourself from a shardblade strike while keeping your powerset except for some F gold through either a spike or a medallion. At which point it isn't just F gold and then it is full on compounding which is probably just as busted as having atium (though possibly easier to achieve in Era 2 than getting atium). Again far from the scenario of the open plains with no metal to use as anchors except what you carry and no atium.

If you gave a returned or other 5th heightening awakener do you think they could still become savants of another magic system? Do you think the 2000 breaths would protect them from the side effects of constant use of metals if they had allomancy? Or save them from the lows of not having stormlight once you hit kaladin levels of use?

Yeah I sort of pictured this as the case. I think a better option for mistborn defensively in this fight would be a set of aluminum chainmail. In fact I think it could be a fairly viable option for everyone on roshar once aluminum becomes more well known (again in the case of scadrial vs roshar we already have scadrial persons with access to soulcasters). With a set of aluminum chainmail you would end up getting full value of the pewter enhancements having a tougher and denser body to absorb and shrug off the now non magical slashes of the shardblade. Its a lot of load out issues the mistborn has to go through in this case with no atium and no gun. But a hard and dense alloy of aluminum that would block a shardblade as some armor and a heavy aluminum hammer, rod, sword or spear could very quickly even out the odds again. Without a doubt the kit failures of mistborn are no magical sword but future sight instead. We are quickly entering a path way off of target here but I have enjoyed the chance to think out and math out some actual pewter science and what would be needed to find an even playing field either way. It is 1 tool or 1 part of a powerset that swings the pendulum back and forth in either direction all the way until you have 2 shards in an eternal battle.

I have to back up @StanLemon on this one. There is a big difference between lifting dead weight and a willing participant. In the hospital we have rules and regulations all around this very thing. A 250lb guy is easy enough for a single person to boost up when they can push up and off of the ground at all. That same 250lb guy is a whole team effort 6+ people when trying to roll them over as they are paralyzed. Kaladin was a willing participant in this lift and while it says she had a strength that may have surprised him a bit that in no means says she is stronger than what she should be. How many 6' tall women do you all think were boosting Kaladin around in his life? How many does he have in his control group to say "good thing Shallan had stormlight so she could lift twice as much as every other petite Rosharan lady I have let carry me around otherwise I would have been toast"? To play devil's advocate further the physics behind the gravity don't say that a Rosharan is weaker on Roshar explicitly. They are exactly how strong their environment allows them to be, but we as outsiders understand that the gram weighs 30% less on Roshar. It is all the same mass and the characters would never notice a difference until they leave their native planet. Much like we don't know how high we could jump on mars they don't know how high they could be jumping elsewhere either. What we know for arguments sake in pewter vs stormlight is that all pewter burners see a 20kg plate as 20kg and all stormlight characts see a 20kg plate as 20kg. Just like with height all stormlight characters see Kaladin as being 6'3" where as we can say he is closer to 7' because of our meta knowledge. Its only through this meta knowledge that we can say the 250lb Kaladin, on Scadrial, would suddenly feel he weighed 357lbs and had to jump with nearly half another person on his back, and worse for him, in this case a Shallan who could comfortably assist a soldier on her planet now has to help lift nearly 1.5 soldiers who can't fully boost themselves because of their newly found weight. Gravity is a factor comparing systems but not really a factor when discussing the characters interacting with other characters from their planet. Also I don't know if the less gravity allows them to grow taller and bigger or it is the slightly higher O2 pressures on Roshar... Either one would make a difference. If Roshar is 30% O2 and Scadrial is Earths 21% O2 it would be expected that Rosharans would need a source of supplemental oxygen or burn through stormlight constantly to heal the tissue damage caused by chronic hypoxia. Working with COPDers who live dragging around oxygen at the equivalent to 30%, not only would Kaladin going from Roshar to Scadrial be 100lbs fatter (feeling to his bone structure and musculature) but he would also be oxygen deprived and gulping on air after even a short exercise. Meanwhile Kelsier going to Roshar would be 30% lighter, able to lift 142% of his normal capacity in mass (Not counting pewter) but he would also feel like he a blood doper getting hooked up with 2.5lpm of supplemental O2 all the time. Glad you aced that too. Enjoy life but don't regret missing something you may need down the future. If anything the shard has made me slightly happier I paid half the attention I did in my studies. Brandon Sanderson is my favorite author for his world building alone. I love the systems of magic and their relation to our own physical reality. I am glad he is versed enough to make it as cohesive as it is. Working in my line of work I can tend to get hung up on the parts of magic that require the answer "because magic" when discussions lead away from physics and biology down the "Brandon is god of the cosmere and he says that X and Y follow these rules but Z follows no rules."

I agree Vin was an outlier in pewter and I agree with the theories she was a pewter savant (maybe there is a WoB I read about that too). I also agree that dead plate may actually hinder the mistborns tool kit too much for it to be worth the effort. While adding protection against shard blade attacks the weight would be a new problem. If it did allow the mistborn to use allomancy through it we would see all steel push attacks become a lot stronger. I believe I have seen some math somewhere saying plate weighs close to 1400lbs.. nearly 3/4 of a ton. The stormlight used to power the suit would overcome all of the weight issues but I don't know how much of the strength the suit would take away from pewter or vice versa. I highly doubt it will be multiplicative and it may not even be perfectly additive but certainly pewter with the suit would be better off than either one alone. The skipping of the blade is a good example of why a mistborn may choose to use plate even if it can't work with allomancy. Now I am curious if it is one way because we see radiants who are immune to certain things in their plate also use those same powers while inside of it. I can easily see a world where the plate allows the mistborn to still push and pull from inside. Jumping from a grounded anchor would still feel like jumping but I do think projectiles will be moving a lot faster when pushed or pulled away and towards the plate and you would be able to push and pull much bigger things. A true wrecking ball of a mistborn. Also given that the allomantic metals have a natural side effect of increasing your metal capacity to filter and use them there is that. I think it would be a short learning curve for a practiced mistborn to have a higher weight. Plate will help in fighting and allow the mistborn to make a lot more sacrificial moves as options. With just a blade it would be as if Vin were dancing over the koloss with that blade only this one burns eyes out. Given our example of a small lifter on Roshar... even if the radiant got 1.5x it wouldn't be as strong as a tiny mistborn with pewter at a normal burn.

In my example I compared a person 5'2" to one that was 6'9". We can toss the Rosharans a few more inches but we also see that the size required to move that much mass does not increase linearly for the strength gained anyways. To be able to lift 1.64x the weight off of the ground required 1 foot and 7 inches in height and required the mountain to be 3.4x the weight. Scadrial mistborn likely won't be 5'2". I think they said Kelsier was roughly 5'8"-5'10" mark? And skaa were built by the lord ruler himself to be shorter and stockier while noble blood is what carried the mistborn traits. Your odds of being mistborn lean more towards you being taller per scadrial standards. I don't think the hieght difference makes that much of a difference with the curve in size to strength ratios. If only I could find any sources of humans kicking down doors without magic though.... As for poor Hobber that is a tug of war there and sadly has no numerical values added to it for comparison either. All I am saying is we have numbers for pewter and we have numbers for humans with 1'9" difference both at their peak. That is simple to calculate and give figures for. I would motion for more evidence that stormlight magically increases strength to a point to keep a rosharan in peak condition on point with a pewterarm in peak condition. Kicking doors, breaking bones and playing tug of war with an unknown weighted advisary isn't enough to go off of. And that isn't to mention that the messing with gravity thing actually skews what we are seeing from sources like windrunners and Szeth. Kaladin could have just lashed hobber in the opposite direction x amounts of times and wouldn't need to tug of war. (I can't recall this scene). Its all anecdotal evidence. Rock is an outlier due to swimming around in god waters.

Do school yo! I would love some WoB giving us anything on the horses being slower... even if they are slower they are still horses... all things are relative when crossing one world to another so we need a basis for comparison. I don't remember anything stating that horses are faster on Roshar and slower on Scadrial. I know there is the Ryshadium which are above the standard horse but I believe that a typical horse on Roshar would equate to the people there making their measurements to the people on Scadrial making their measurements and us here on earth (which is what Scadrial is closest to). So Scadrial being closest to earth and being set as the unit 1.0 then for maths purposes Scadrial horse is to those people what a horse is to us. Roshar looking at themselves and their isolated world that horse is a horse is a horse to them (but we as readers know that Roshars gravitational pull is 0.7 to that 1.0 of scadrial which is basically the earth of the cosmere). Again, I don't have the WoB or book references for why a horse is less than a horse on scadrial but for the sake of trying to stay consistent using earthly units of measure as a 1:1 ratio with Scadrial I think it is fair to say that pewterarms can push themselves to a 36-40mph sprint and maintain it until the pewter runs out and leaves them dead... (always carry enough pewter to sleep on kids). Again take that same mistborn onto roshar and their effective and relative strength bonuses shoot through the roof because of gravity differences which are canonized with sources on the coppermind. As far as blades how long has the mistborn been on Roshar? The Ghostbloods are proof enough that a mistborn can aquire a shardblade via previously defeating a shardbearer. This may take away from the 3rd ideal vs mistborn or 4th ideal vs mistborn arguments but say for a moment that a very powerful cognitive shadow has a set of plate and a blade and sends a mistborn to do his will on Roshar with them. How does that mistborn fare against the radiant of 3rd ideal with a dead shardblade of his own. Or a 4th ideal windrunner with a dead blade and dead plate of his own? I would say with and without atium but I do believe that atium 1ups a shard advantage everytime (atium with a deadblade would beat plate and blade on the windrunner and atium without a blade beats windrunner with a blade).

I think Rock being able to draw the shard bow was more about his bloodline... perhaps mixed more than just Rosharan? Perhaps it is from his swimming in the pools. What he does should be about as useful for drawing comparisons for stormlight as Lift is. They both have something else happening we just haven't received his novella yet. Is stormlight perfecting what you have or what you could have? Why would Kaladin train at all if he had stormlight. If anything the ability to taste stormlights effects has made him want to become better itself. I don't think his training is chasing the dragon but perhaps said dragon just gets better as he himself improves. I don't much think that stormlight provides as much speed or agility either. Those stem from that functional strength... improved by stormlight but not necessarily increased by it. In the running competition the members of bridge 4 with stormlight soundly won the race... they also didn't seem to be so out of breath. This was at least somewhat contributed to the fact that they were also testing partial lashings and running speed. They carry the bridge and it feels lighter... or are they just being constantly healed by the stormlight so they can run and lift like they are totally fresh until their stormlight runs out? If it actually gave them more speed in a longer race as well as not letting them feel tired or winded at all don't you think they would have had better times than just a few minutes faster than the non stormlight users? Meanwhile Vin is able to maintain speeds even with a galloping horse for hours during one pewter drag. The reflexes and proprioception (though this is perhaps more tins thing) allow the allomancer near perfect control of all of these changes. Cat like reflexes while moving somewhere in the 36-40mph range (at their 1.0 gravity. Likely higher on Roshar). Other than constant healing any damage done by pressing past your natural limits without being harmed by it... that still isn't the same as flat out magically doubling and tripling your abilities. I don't see stormlight actually coming that close to pewter in any of these except that it perfects you and heals you passively. Again I don't know that the pewter vs stormlight argument will change the outcome of glass daggers vs shardblade. The shardblade in this match-up is as much an upgrade as atium is for the mistborn and noone disagrees that atium is the trump card even there and atium doesn't fall off until radiants get their version of pewter in shardplate. I think if we took away the shardblade and put stormlight and surges at a strength and efficiency equal to that of a 3rd ideal radiant and put it up against a mistborn with just the metals at the end of HoA the radiant would lose more often than not. It isn't that stormlight is weak it is just not as good as pewter for the close quarters match maybe you can heal 99% of hits taken but this isn't a punch from Szeth into the ribcage. This is a punch with smaller surface area packing 2-3x the energy. You aren't taking about broken ribs we are talking about concaved chests with hemo/ pneumothorax and damage even deeper. We aren't talking broken nose... we are talking shattered skulls. The blade is the fallback in this and without atium I concede that it is pretty well a 1 sided battle. Without the blade, talking just, about surges and stormlight vs metals and allomancy the mistorn and pewter are king all day long. It is a good thing the windrunner can fly so high and so far.

Look at Eddie Hall being 6'3" and Lamar being 5'2". If numbers like these are the peak of physical performance. The current WR for deadlift is Hafthor and the guy stands right at 6'9" 204kg was only able to lift 1kg more than Eddie hall. So if you have 2 players at their peak... one from Roshar at 6'9" and the other at 5'2" there starts to become a big difference. 501 is bigger than 305. Its not bigger than 610 or 915. Stormlight doesn't double your strength and we don't have anything quantifiable by which to say it does X to strength (nor anything saying it improves strength at all). All we have people going off of is that szeth dropped Dalinar with a single blow breaking ribs with a punch to the side. I would say the most notable stormlight + strength we have seen is Rock and the shardbow. But wait there is this WoB which pretty well dispells the idea that it was the stormlight doing it for him. According to the coppermind Rock is just shy of 7 feet and he is large to the Alethi. I'm gonna go on a limb and say by the description Hafthor is as close to Rock as we are gonna get... especially being among the strongest men in the world. If we had the 132 lb Lamar from the previous example on pewter he would be outperforming Hafthor by 21% already on a normal burn and that increases to 182%, while flaring, of the amount lifted by a man who weighs nearly 450lbs. Take those weights and put them into the gravitational hodgepodge and apparent weight it gets even more disgusting. (Sorry for switching between KG and LBS so much I will try to keep it consistent for the rest of this). Both parties have pulled off their world records on their respective planet with Roshar being roughly 0.7 gravity to Scadrial 1.0 gravity according to coppermind (30% lighter from scadrial to Roshar and 42.86% heavier from roshar to scadrial) On Roshar we have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 204kg and makes that worlds largest lift of 501kg. Take him to Scadrial. We have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 291.4kg and his muscles adjusted for life on Roshar see the same mass of plates but he can't pick it up. In fact he has to take plates off to make up for the gravitation differences here. He can only lift 70% of what that same stack of plates was on his home planet. 350.7kg. Lamar the 5'2" 60kg boy wonder picks up 305kg on his native Scadrial. (Still lower than that of the mountain.) But on Roshar the maths turn the man into a myth and a legend where he is a 42kg man asking the natives to toss more plates onto his tray and is able to lift an incredible 435.7kg. Now you have stormlight not adding actual strength but pewter doubling and, when flared, trippling it... you have this 5'2" man lifting 871.4kg (74% more weight than Hafthor on his own planet) on a normal pewter burn and 1307 (160% more weight than Hafthor) on a flare of pewter. Given Brandon has felt it worth noting exactly how much pewter increases strength and given than Brandon has not chosen to give us any indication that stormlight actually increases strength (in fact Kaladin says it himself that it doesn't and stormlight healing and endurance / perfection can explain all other examples in the books) I would have to say that the pewter burner is in fact going to come out on top in strength no matter what planet the fight is on. The gravitation surge would certainly help in a strength contest as you could negate all physics but the point isn't about gravitation. It is that pewter is magically enhancing that thing and the strength between a pewter arm and a taller Alethi isn't really a factor. These are 2 guys at total opposite ends of the size spectrum and they are obviously in their absolute prime. That isn't to say either of them is at fighting weight (in fact Hafthor lost nearly 60kg for his fighting weight since then) and the size limitation and difference would actually be smaller than this if you had an average alethi and an average scadrian (is that the term) which would make the difference in strength even more noticeable between the 2 combatants. I know I know it isn't enough to make up for magic blade but think about the agility, speed and power able to be generated in a person who is smaller and 174% stronger than you. Pewter is stronger given the WoB quoted than I originally believed and I always thought it was a factor worth looking into more.

Perhaps we read into that differently. Specifically when double strength in Vins case. It wasn't her doubling her base strength. When she and Ham were working out and both of them had pewter they were a match for eachother. The increase in strength also is shown outside of just the gym on a persons interactions with the world around them. I don't want my talk of pewter to simply be a strength measurement. Doubling the strength of something is fine and dandy but it is what that does to the world around it physically. Its strength lb for lb. A 300grain arrow works great for my kids 30lb bow but if I shot that with a 60lb barebow I would likely be destroying my bow. Likewise if I have a 500 spine arrow that is 24 inches long it will be stronger for that arrow than a 500 spine arrow that is 32 inches long. There is so much more that goes into strength than just double or triple. You need more and more mass to move more and more mass. Pewter eliminates that. Eddie hall deadlifts 501kg at 190kg. We have Lamar Gant who deadlifted 305kg at just 60kg. Eddie hall lifted 2.6x his weight in a world record lift and it was the most any human had deadlifted in recorded history. Meanwhile Lamar lifted 5.08x his weight with that lift. Lamar may have lifted less weight but his body did so much more and could do so much more. Look at fighters and athletes who just do calisthenics. Having lower mass that is enhanced to support that extra strength is a huge difference. Shooting ballistics can further demonstrate the point. I am comparing the dangerous game rounds for 45 colt vs a 45-70 government at 300grains each for bullet weight from good ole Buffalo bore ammunition. I chose these 2 because I can compare on their site as evenly as I think is possible. The only difference is the 45-70 I chose to use their shorter barrel length which was 2 inches shorter and actually skews these numbers in the 45 colts favor. The 45-70 can hold just under double the amount of powder (roughly 70grains for 45-70 and roughly 40grains for the 45 colt) shooting the same bullet we get this: The 45-70 shoot 2263 muzzle speed offering 3410 foot pounds of energy. The same sized bullet with just over half the powder traveled 1480fps producing 1458 foot pounds of energy. That is 2.3x the energy from 1.75x the "strength". This is just a demonstration with the equal mass. If the powder is our strength and the size of our bullet is the size of our person then we get a bit better picture of what pewter seems to actually do in the books. Say we jack up the size of these bullets with the same powder behind them. They all slow down and the energy is lower. This is why size matters for kinetic energy. (The effect of size actually effects momentum more and in flight a smaller mistborn will benefit from the lack of momentum in a flying chase with tight turns in a city). Vin may only get boosted to equal power with Ham but given her size she is able to do far more with that power. I hypothesize that the increased density and toughness and healing are increased not based on a linear number but that they are the side effects of pewter allowing the allomancer to perform based on their size to function. Hence Vin's head not exploding while the other persons head did. It also explains why she was able to build up so much power with a headbutt... a punch or possibly even a slap would have been far more devastating due to smaller surface area to an extent... maybe not though. You can't measure overkill as easily as you can measure underkill (like a full pass through on an arrow... only way to know how much further it would have penetrated is if you have more tissue to penetrate through). Again 1.75x power in a bullet produces 2.3x more energy, it could well be more than that given all of the variables for ballistics and barrel lengths and such. (I doubt it would be less given that I purposefully hamstrung the 45-70 with a shorter barrel). Then take all of that and apply it to our fight... which if on Roshar allows the mistborn to take off 30% of their trained weight (if we were on scadrial the radiant would be fighting with a vest equal to 142% of their normal weight). Why does any of this matter? Because it is functional strength. Look at a navy seal working out with Brian Shaw. The big guy lifts more and would likely hit harder but the little guy is built to do more at his fighting weight. More pull-ups more pushups more agility and longevity why? Because of his power lb for lb not necessarily raw strength. This is the mistborns advantage. Running faster jumping further packing more force into a punch. Szeth broke ribs with his punch on stormlight. I see people with broken ribs from punches in the ER on a not so infrequent basis. If Vin were to punch a person in the ribs flaring pewter I dare say much more damage would occur to that poor persons chest. Of course none of this gets us past the magical sword thing... but as illustrated again with szeth vs dalinar / adolin / kaladin you don't need magic reflexes to avoid a shardblade cut. You need to be quick and dexterous. I believe the grace Vin moves in and her increased balance and proprioception on pewter and tin come in at least equal with the perfected movements and fluidity of a radiant on stormlight. The differences are stormlight heals and let's you push past your natural levels by mending muscle tears as they happen and pewter simply makes you tough enough to not tear your muscles with all of the doubled (or tripled or duralumin enhanced exponentially based on pewter mass in ones system) strength you have. Side note: This was my biggest issue with antman... why didn't he jump around like a grain of rice traveling half the speed of sound blasting holes through his enemies (or crawl up Thanos' nose and then become massive in his upper sinuses.)

I think both of these help me thought process. There are limits to the blades hence why Syl doesn't simply chase down Kaladins enemies as an instakill noodle of death zigzagging to and fro to find her targets. This is another case of weird interactions with investiture but syl herself is a pure form of investiture. Perhaps the leeching is simply stopping the sprens connection to the radiant. On the brightside it is infinitely easier for a radiant to have 0.000000000000000001 seconds of time the mistborn isn't leeching them for the spren to hop back and stab them in the gut compared to 10heartbeats worth of breaking a grapple that a normal shardbearer would need. We agree that the mistborns life would be way easier with healing. An aluminum weapon or half shard shield would make life way easier too. I just don't see a need for the increase in raw power. I believe you underestimate pewter or overestimate the power of stormlight in the physical enhancement department.

I question the wording of Syl fuzzing out of existence and then back to existence turning into a new weapon. The fact that the weapon never morphed like a transformer in his hand says that something happened to where she had to dismiss and then reappear there as something else. It is in this very fine hairs worth of a second that I base my theory off of... while being leeched you can't summon your blade. She had to leave kaladins hand to become something else in his hand again. This would not be able to happen while being leeched. Get past the pointy end. Take a hold of him and don't stop leeching until the job is done. Pewter and stormlight can go on and on. Szeths punch to Dalinars ribs only breaking them is not so far outside of normal human capability. Swatting the blade out of Adolins hand and breaking his wrist is a more compelling argument that there is some enhancement beyond just the normal humans capabilities. I still don't think it overshadows or is even on the same level as a thug. Firing a few things is an interesting idea. How much stormlight would the radiant be willing to devote to ranged attacks of their own in this way? I have worked on people battered and pummeled by baseball sized hale... it is only so much force that can be generated by a single lashing. How many do you have to use to make it happen? I can say Szeth lashed the wall onto that guard in the very beginning of WoK but again here we have WOB saying he thought a mistborn would beat Szeth. In this scenario mistborn loses a lot more than windrunner. Where and what do you all think the mistborn needs to win? Atium? Guns? Aluminum bats? I honestly think an aluminum rod with or without anything sharp or pointy would be the breakpoint with or without atium. Give the mistborn 1 tool to be able to block and parry the shardblade and we would be back to the 60/40 split between the two that I initially said. Side note: I found an AMA with Brandon where the question was about a blind mistborn and if they could use gold to see the spiritual shadow of everything. He agreed but mentioned it would sort of mess with the person (savantism). With this any sort of spiritual sight could give the mistborn 360 degree vision like a byakugan.

I found this fun Reddit response. I know it was from back in The Way of Kings days but we do see Szeth fighting Kaladin as a 3rd ideal windrunner so I think this is relevant to this discussion. Q&A with Brandon Sanderson! : Fantasy_Bookclub (reddit.com) I have relistened to the entire Szeth vs Kaladin fight and the words lashing come up a lot. With that in mind is not a need to restart your new lashings in a new direction every time? It seems like each time Szeth wanted to walk on walls in the very beginning he would have to lash in a direction. This would suggest that there is an ever increasing amount of stormlight needed for each turn as if you are going full speed and need to make a 90 degree turn or even a full 180 degree turn you would need to relash yourself and overcome the momentum and inertia that is already happening. Gravity is always pulling on a ball that gets thrown straight up but that driving force and momentum behind that ball require it to get pulled back. In this case to make that turn you have to stack as many lashings as is necessary to slow you down and then make you fall in the new direction you want to go. It may be possible to keep up pace with the mistborn but the nature of pushing and pulling are more like a string being tied to the cork of a cork gun. You shoot out one direction and then instantly stop moving that way and move the new way so long as the anchor is strong enough. I know in terms of an open field with little metal this doesn't apply, but change the setting and I believe the entire mobility discussion would change. How do you think a windrunner would fare in a chase through the low streets of Elendel vs a mistborn? I agree that the windrunner needs only a spine shot against the mistborn. Again, after relistening to Szeths fight against Kaladin at the end of WoR we see non-stormlight infused characters moving in and out of attacks. (Plot armor? I would say so given and entire squad of men came in and got killed in a flash while Adolin and Dalinar were both able to narrowly escape death over and over again.) I whole heartedly disagree with the arguments that pewter burning mistborn is the same as a normal Alethi, and I think a mistborn with tin and pewter would have significantly faster reaction times toe to toe with Dalinar and Adolin at this time. Reverse lashing a bunch of metal to rocks or a shield or whatever is also going to give the mistborn that many more magically enhanced anchors to use as well. Bendalloy burn rate is a good point but stormlight is always leaking and doesn't last forever either. In this case I have concieded that most of the time the Windrunner wins. No atium for the mistborn in an open rock field with only the metal it carried and the metal the windrunner may be wearing... I still dont think it is a 100-0 win. I can move further than even a 4:1 ratio in favor of the windrunner in these circumstances but you can't count out the agility of pewter being able to dance around the blade and it goes higher with guns or aluminum loadouts (which are time appropriate for the mistborns loadout). I can't disagree with this. There is WoB where Peter says that aluminum foil would not be magically cut but that the blade itself would still blow through the foil. That said, looking at other systems for a minute, an awakened piece of cloth would be susceptible to the blade of a shardblade but not the magical cutting abilities as well. WoB on royallocks and the shardblade are that the locks would not be treated as dead like other hair. So investiture is interesting in how it reacts and different investiture reacts differently. Lots of RAFO answers in regards to all of this as well. Relistening to the Szeth and Kaladin fight Syl doesn't change shapes from short to long otherwise she would have just instapoped Szeth. She fuzzed out and then reappeared as a new weapon. If leeching stops you from summoning then the shape she was in would be the only shape she can be in while being leeched. In the case of a longer spear once you are past the pointy bit you would only need to start leeching and they would either have a stick to fight you with or they would have no blade at all because once she tries to change shape she wouldnt be allowed back into existance until you broke free. The Nightblood point is interesting and I have a lot of questions about nightblood (metal isnt investiture so would nightblood kill an allomancer with full stomach but not burning at the time to access the investiture?) Nightblood is also very full. He wasnt able to consume a shard and just stopped feeding at one point. We know investiture still resists investiture and metalminds hit a point where they are too full also. Is it possible Nightblood leeches slower given how full he is already than other sources? The larkin barely looked at Lift and she was drained... Szeth holds Nightblood for a while without being emptied. Have we seen other interactions between Larkin and other radiants? I imagine until we do it returns to the fact that we do not have a measurable unit for investiture nor any math to calculate these times. Which leads, unfortunately or fortunately, to endless devils advocate posts to help everyone pass the time away thinking about fun fantasy worlds colliding. Back to the Szeth being beaten by a "fullblown mistborn" and Szeth and Kaladin going toe to toe. I know Szeth wasn't a radiant with op healing or a living blade but he was the better duelist and I believe he only lost because of emotional trauma and total distraction... his world view was being destroyed before his very eyes and he died in his efforts to stop fighting kaladin and go back for his intended target. I think this points out a few things... pewters strength in terms of the average alethi and the stormlight infused fighters and the potency of emotional highs and lows in a fight for life. Truly the #1 factor in who would win given any situation is who does Brandon award plot armor because he needs the story to move this direction or that direction. Plot armor is the real OP

I believe spren are slivers of a shard which would make them, in the physical realm at least, a similar material to a god metal. This is a perfectly valid point which largely gets countered by bendalloy bubbles. I agree with avoiding this at all costs as well. Devolving into fullborn vs 10 surges radiant full living plate and blade where everyone has infinite resources is absoultely brutal. If we wanted to get down to the real nittygritty we would say that there are no mistborn in era 2 anyways. We could also say that spook is the only known mistborn to have had access to all of the metals and era 1 mistborn wouldnt have access to leeching. As far as loadouts go in era 2 aluminum is well known and, while expensive, not out of reach for a mistborn. Potential aluminum vials and weaponry. Odds are mistborn have less worries on roshar and are more inclined to carry metal weaponry which would offer heavier projectiles to use and play with. Also guns... if a gun is allowed it shifts everything just as easily as atium. If that gun has aluminum bullets it is even more so shifted. Now we run into the era and loadout issues again. There is a huge difference between 1000+ grain projectile traveling ~200fps and a 240 grain projectile (typical .44mag) traveling 1100+ fps. Out of a rifle you could say that is pushing 1600+ fps and with a 45-70 or 12 gauge you are talking 400grains - a full oz. That isnt talking about if they had aluminum weaponry which was not uncommon just expensive. (Though this leads to a question about how gravitation would work against aluminum anything.) If you jab a button into my body it will not tear off until it passes through my body enough to actually tear. So long as there is a backdrop for the metal piece the mistborn will be able to anchor with it. Even coins stuck to a shield with adhesion will beable to be used for anchors. I need to know more of how exactly gravitation works. Fighting in the storm was not an easy feat and both combatants were fighting against the storm. I assume momentum and inertia are laws that apply to some extent. Thus every turn would be more of an arch. This is the same for mistborn but with thrust as an option as opposed to just falling. A fall at terminal velocity in one direction would carry a certain amount of momentum while lashing oneself back the other direction only with gravitation there is no thrust to your fall. You can ramp up all of your lashings super duper fast but it costs more stormlight to do so (I dont remember how it is described if it is linear or exponential) where as a mistborn navigating their flight is limited by anchor points. More anchors means more fine tuned agility. That same anchor you just pushed on really hard can be pulled on softly (as your distance would also make your pushes and pulls weaker) to help fine tune high speed chases. Push and Pull in AoL put on an awesome chase against a crasher but even Wax notes and uses the way one metal was working vs another as an advantage. When you have both your movement options go through the roof. Our experience with all of the metals in that category have been instantaneous. We have a few WoB that say leeching a full metalmind would take a while but until we have units of measurement for investiture and what parts make up each thing this isnt something you can really rely on. We know sprenblades are more invested than a metalmind. Metalminds can block a sprenblade, Kaladin with a chest full of stormlight can't. Thus your radiant totally full of stormlight is less invested than the metalmind which is less invested than the spren. Info is worth its weight in gold. I dont know that the mistborn has all basic info of how to best kill a radiant. I just think mistborns toolkit offers more insight into thier enemies than the radiants does. The mistborn will see how invested that radiant is from afar and will notice that the blade is made of aluminum or some other highly invested metal. The mistborn will learn how well the radiant flies when it sees the radiant fly and that would be the same thing for the radiant in the other direction. Healing would be a surprise to the mistborn as would emotional assaults and just how hard and fast the mistborn would be to the radiant. But if I were in a fight for my life I say there is no such thing as overkill. The mistborn knows it can leech that glow and kill the magic... bronze picks up that it is being used even if it doesnt know what it does... zap that crap away when you can. That would be like a radiant not swinging his sprenblade because he is trying to hide it (never seen that scenario before right?)

That WoB seems like a good point to call a bit of a stretch to stormlight being the hand wave at pummeling a radiant with self doubt and soothing away all confidence or rioting out more depression and sapping a desire to fight. Certainly duralumin dumping these things like Vin did would open a second or two of attack possibilities. Almost like being given breath after spending so much time as a drab. It isn't the same investiture. Different things do different things from different sources and with different mechanisms. Brandon says its the helmet that protects the radiant from emotional allomancy. If there is a source where he says its just the stormlight then we can push that further. But so far there hasn't been any evidence that stormlight alone replaces aluminum to block mental/ emotional attacks any more than there is evidence that the stormlight can stop an invested attack from a shardblade.

This is specifically 3rd ideal. So there is no plate. If it was a blanket radiant vs mistborn then we would get into plate discussion. This is 3rd ideal vs mistborn. No plate. A radiant without a ryshadium? How does that even make sense other than they both end in ium? A totally real metal that mistborn can burn vs a strong horse that has feelings for the flying radiant to play with? We are far into the thread. So era 2 metals with era 1 weaponry for the mistborn... if we even need to give the mistborn a weapon at all since it isn't actually a part of their magic system built in to it. Era 2 would also introduce ample access to firearms and now with the later era 2 medallions. So rare in Era 1 that every single fight between mistborn or an inquisitor either needs atium to work or plot armor and electrum. I know the rarity is stressed but even the skaa thief had it and all of the major houses had it... not barring that they were the only ones legally supposed to have mistborn anyways. As far as the pursuers head... if a windrunner touches the mistborn they will be leeched. The windrunner does have the superior melee weapon but unless they are fighting naked with a sack of spheres that has no metal buckle or belt with any metal on it either to hold it to them... the mistborn doesn't have to let them get close anyways. Mobiltiy is in the windrunners favor because all threads quickly get slapped with "on an open field with no metal near by". Fighting in any town or city with structures held by any metal at all and I don't think that the windrunners mobility is favored anymore. In fact it would be the mistborn able to make faster and tighter turns with more up front acceleration "thrust generated vs fall time". I never said that the windrunner was less durable than the mistborn. Just that if the mistborn touches the radiant it is game over. In an open field with no metal and 2 naked fighters mistborn with no atium or weapon because its not in their ability kit vs windrunner the windrunner wins the majority of the time because magic weapon. There is no real argument there. I stand by the fact that if the mistborn touches the radiant then the mistborn will leech the radiant and pop their skull even if the mistborn has noodles for arms. Even the sling got a kill on deadliest warrior. The setting or allowable gear in the fight would change everything. Even 5 seconds of atium timed when the windrunner is in melee range would be the game changer. No atium just era 2 stuff and the mistborn suddenly has access to medallions and guns and aluminum weaponry. Even if it was just alloy of law aluminum bullets would be available to someone from scadrial. All of this is with the fact that if the mistborn is fighting in Roshar they suddenly weigh 30% less and if the radiant is fighting on scadrial they weigh 42% more. Your 170lb mistborn is suddenly moving as if they took off a 51lb weighted vest and your 240lb radiant just put on a 100lb vest.