James Brafin

... I think I think I'm gonna go elsewhere for a bit

I'm so sorry. We learned something new though. Right? Right?

It doesn't matter, in the upper right-hand corner you can just jump to the post!

Thank you, I'm sorry I'm being picky. <3 Have a hug <3 OH WAIT FRICK YOU CAN JUMP TO THE QUOTE I'M SO SORRY ILLWEI FORGIVE MEEE ;;;;;;;;;_;;;;;;;;;

This is super helpful! Thank you! But I must ask again -- can you get post numbers?

This is the most blatant post, and I'll explain some of the (numerous) issues with it: The countertrain that built up in the first round actually had some backing. Lotus's low posting and extremely suspicious behavior had some people concerned that they were low-activity Elim (like me). And the second wagon frames the whole affair in a particular way, when it's clear that it was Elim led by an Elim who was likely to die anyways. There's just as likely a chance that they are drawing these wagons to try and get us to Shrek Dannex, while they deal with bigger threats like Lil and Burnt. It ignores the fact that Greys have little control over their votes, as has been discussed. All of the things that we have pointed out we have all agreed are uncredible. They aren't good reasons to suspect him of anything, simply because they stem from meta behavior and confusion. You talk about patterns here as well, which is a big red flag. Shrekking on a "pattern" rather than solid evidence is such a bad thing to do. It's framing all this stuff in such a way so that it looks bad, when it's actually not incriminating at all. It's super, super suspicious. I don't like it.

Village brown, and I'm pretty sure the Elim have 2 Wardens to compensate. In fact, I'd hedge my bets on Elims being White, Grey, Warder, Warder, Red/Yellow

Oh please that would be great. Can you find where you've said similar things to what Dice just mentioned? These two: Has been very devoted to his reasonings instead of cooling it off slowly like an elim would Has been significantly more active than his elim game

Okay, we're here. I was checking for white-knighting. You've been giving me those vibes for a while, and I wanted to double-check that you weren't just piggybacking off of Illwei. Problem is, these are all things I think Illwei said, but I don't remember. I need to go reread her posts I guess *cries*

I was getting ready to bring it up right as you changed that vote. The main problem I have is that you've been pushing a narrative that I don't think actually lines up with the game -- you're telling a story instead of providing evidence. I don't know about here, but on my home planet that's considered really suspicious. (For clarification, that was a joke as mafiascum and this place are worlds apart. Ha ha me.)

While I do think they are doing something wrong, they owe me nothing so I have changed my post to be less aggressive. Thank you for pointing it out.

We've locked Dannex into Town now; Quinn can no longer push a narrative of Dannex being Elim. Also, while I've got you, can you target her tonight if we don't kill her? Thanks.

Okay, so, I'm back after calling my parents to destress and just a few things: Quinn, because I'm pretty sure she(?) has been pushing a narrative for a while now, and has now had to re-evaluate because it just got hammahed. There's other people, but we'll get there I swear to all heck I know that interaction with the votes with Striker makes no sense; I promise it will soon. I also think Archer is more sus than you think, as he seems to be intentionally distancing himself from everyone, which is very Elim-motivated. I may need to just reevaluate them tho Dannex I swear to the Cosmere I've thought you were Town for a while, that's not why I'm pushing this line of inquiry. This is something I've said multiple times. Chill, aight? Speaking of, @Matrim's Dice, I'd still like you to explain why you think/thought Dannex is town, ideally without using Illwei's arguments. Imma gonna finish food and lurk, if I see anything I want to address I'll pipe up. Ping if you need something.

I'm pretty sure Town can have two brown. Again, I can't say more right this second, but it has to do with game mechanics and such. I'll get back to you.

IT LITERALLY SAYS DON'T @ ME IN THE POST YOU JUST QUOTED REEEEE ahem This, here. striker+Dannex!elim makes no sense with this knowledge. Also, this is a good reminder to me to deep-dive you tonight; My read on you has shifted pretty hard since I last talked to you.

The only duet you'll hear from me is to Elims: "Duet. Hit me. I don't fear death."

Oop, Illwei outs as the second green (Also that sucks. Sorry that you lost your post.)

I don't dance. I'm awkward and clumsy and never know what to do with my anything.

That's pretty much right on the money. It comes back to the bit about burden of proof I was at earlier -- you're starting at an assumption that Dannex is Town, which is something you shouldn't do in that situation. it's not enough to simply refute arguments -- you must then provide arguments of your own. In essence, it's the burden of proof fallacy, reversed; Dice is making the claim that Dannex is town; Now prove it. And the answer can't be, "Well, there's no evidence that he's Elim, so he's town!" Because that doesn't offer any evidence to the fact he is Town -- the very thing that you require for your argument. (To be clear, with Illwei's post, I'm now finally and thoroughly convinced he's town. I am not trying to prove he's Elim. That's not the point of this. Don't @ me.) Judging by my parsing, I'm pretty sure Dice is about to be confirmed Warder, or there's a possibility of Red as well I think. That's moot. p-edit: Well, there's no use hiding now. Hi, Order and I have a PM. We are bonded. How and why will come later. Burnt, are you going to do Illwei as well? My latest guess for her is Grey or Blue, leaning Blue based on the Order of Actions bit. I'm still not sure why you ever suspected me in the first place. In fact, now I suspect you as I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I didn't want it outed that we were bonded.

Okay, I was responding to Dannex, but I'll get back to that thought. The first point you've made I assume is actually NAI. By being self-aware of it, it's not a tell, as he can do it as town or elim. So I don't think that argument holds much water. The second point, however, is excellent, and not something I had considered. With what we know about alignments now, the chances of Dannex and Striker being buddies is very, very poor. That's great reasoning now for why Dannex should be considered town. It's not great reasoning for before D2, but it definitely is helpful for other reasons. Edit: Oh, and in terms of ours: I mean ours, as in the players, as in "several of us, including myself, have brought forth points against Dannex." that group of people, specifically, not the people who think Dannex might be town or Elim. Edit 2: To Dannex: One: I made no such claim this day, if you'll notice. I have reasons other than suspecting you as being Elim for this line of reasoning. Two: This is a bastardization of the Burden of Proof argument; I won't get deep into the debate here, but what it essentially boils down to is that we are starting at a preassumption of the null state here (i.e. Dannex is town) and that people who disagree need to provide evidence to the contrary. However. In debate, you shouldn't start with a preassumed null state. We should be starting with the null state that we don't know your alignment, and each side should be providing evidence to why we can successfully know your alignment. In other words, Dice is making the claim that you are Town; then he is under the burden of proof to provide evidence for this, just as I am to provide it for my views. That's what I'm looking for here. Three.: After some setup parsing, I'm somewhat confident it's possible that the village has two brown. However, I can not share this with you at this time, but hope to share it later -- plus I need to do more parsing on the subject.

You haven't given us a bunch of reasons for why he's not Elim though, you've just discredited ours, which is fallacious. You're right in that Not elim = town, but evidence for not elim =/= evidence for town. You need to provide some sort of reason that Dannex might be town. You and Illwei keep telling us you read him as village -- but I don't think either of you have ever given us a single reason why. Edit: Another thought: If y'all are so sure he's town, you in particular are awfully ready and eager to just sheep town and shrek him. One minute the striker thing was "too much a red flag," the next it's "not overwhelming." So which is it?

It's subtle, I'll grant you that. But all Illwei has done so far, at least from what I can recall, is give us reason after reason that Dannex isn't elim; i.e. just discrediting any sort of evidence brought against Dannex. They haven't, on the other hand, provided any reason to us to think that Dannex is town; Illwei hasn't provided any sort of reasoning that we should believe that Dannex should be town, rather than Elim. Edit... To be fair, you haven't really, either, at least not in my memory. Would you like to share?

So, Illwei, these are all fine reasons why Dannex are not Elim. What reasons do you have for Dannex being town? (Also, if you'd answer my above post that would be great)

Wait wait wait Why would you vote on Ash, and then take an action on ash?

Everyone slow down, I'm trying to parse the setup! We 100% don't want to be hasty about this