AquaRegia

YES. Thank you for wording this so clearly. We (all, I include myself) have a natural tendency to assume everyone else is "like us" until shown otherwise. I feel it's important to resist the shock reflex we sometimes have when we find out someone is different. You didn't know before, now you do.... it's OK. Different isn't BAD. See below. I appreciate your journey, and your honest efforts to be kind. I will also try to be as kind as I can. Lessie and Wax were shown as a couple in Alloy of Law, which was published in 2011. Later, Wayne and MeLaan were pretty explicit in BoM. The Way of Kings came out in 2010; people immediately began speculating about Horneaters and Herdazians (human+singer) and Natanans (human+aimian). I don't recall exactly when we found out about Tanavast and Koravellium being lovers, but it was at least a few books ago. I understand some people feeling like interspecies relationships are a "sudden" thing in WaT, but I don't think it's a fair criticism. Also, it's not necessarily "bad writing" for the reader to find something surprising, any more than it's "bad" to be surprised about someone in real life. Statements like these seem to me to rest upon a single idea: that if a particular sexual or romantic behavior isn’t what I might want, then it must be wrong somehow. This idea needs to be smashed. It is not only fundamentally and demonstrably incorrect, it’s actively hurtful in real life. I believe that Mr. Sanderson and I agree on this; it certainly seems to be a core theme of his work. You don't get to tell me what I'm OK with. And I don't get to tell you, or anyone else. You are right that some things make me go "ick"... but I don't get to project my "ick" onto anyone else, and I sure don't have any moral authority to forbid anyone doing something on the basis of my "ick". That's exactly the point. I think Brandon is, through his writing, trying to gently help us all grow up and awaken to the fact that people can be who they choose, and love who they choose, how and why they choose, regardless of whether it's what we might choose. We don't get to choose for them.

In fact, I can. I just did. More importantly, Brandon Sanderson did. One of the main themes of Brandon's work is that all the sapient species in the Cosmere - human, dragon, sho del, kandra, spren, singer, aimian, sleepless, etc, etc, are PEOPLE. He has given us canonical evidence of sexual and/or romantic relationships between humans and 1) dragons 2) singers 3) aimians 4) kandra 5) spren (debatable, but we've been talking about it here for years) 6) cognitive shadows, 7) whatever Hoid is, probably some others I forgot or missed, and I won't be surprised to learn about many more in the future. You're free to not like it, but that doesn't stop it from being true. You are also free to indulge your own preferences; draw lines wherever you wish... for YOU. I have my own preferences; elves and vulcans are HOT, orcs and thermians, not so much. But just because you might arbitrarily consider a romantic relationship between some of these to be acceptable but rule out others does not entitle you to make that judgement for ANYONE ELSE. Kind of like every other fictional universe... and also the real one. One umbrella. Simple.

I LOVE Waxillium Ladrian. He's one of my favorite characters in the Cosmere, and I would dearly love to see him on the page again. When I read I thought the same thing you did: Wax vs the Rosharans! But honestly, I think Wax's arc is done. My best guess is that by the time we see Scadrial again, he'll be at most a mentor, more likely just a memory.

Honestly. I can't believe this topic grew to six storming pages, and some people were STILL fighting. If you read The Lord of the Rings (published in 1954), and you had no problem with Aragorn marrying Arwen, you can't claim you have problems accepting an interspecies relationship. If you watched Star Trek (1966-1969), and you were OK with Jim Kirk macking on the green-alien-woman-of-the-week, not to mention Spock being the canonical child of a Vulcan father and a human mother, you had no trouble accepting interspecies relationships. (Bonus points for Laliari and Fred Kwan in Galaxy Quest!) If you played D&D (1977-present), and didn't object when someone played a half-elf or half-orc character, you clearly had no issues with interspecies relationships. If you read comic books, and saw nothing wrong with Lois Lane dating Superman (which started in 1938), YOU HAD NO TROUBLE ACCEPTING AN INTERSPECIES RELATIONSHIP. There is one big difference that sets apart Renarin and Rlain from all these other examples; one critical detail of THIS relationship that might inspire someone to assert "You can’t tell me that didn’t make you feel sick." I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide what that crucial difference is. (Hint: it ain't carapace.) It is certainly true that ONE thing about this topic made me feel sick. Another exercise for the reader.

Wow. I do not believe I have ever heard the issue framed quite so succinctly. Definitely food for thought. Thank you for this. Yes. But in my mind (and I believe many others'), there is a very simple test any constraint of freedom needs to pass: "is the action harming anyone?" This is a legal standard in the US: in order to win a court case, you must "prove harm". Obviously, the various definitions of "harm" can be argued/litigated endlessly; there are certainly gray areas there. But can we not agree that a loving relationship (or even casual sex) between consenting adults - regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, or gender - can't be harming anyone else...?

Agree. I've been thinking about this a lot: "why did the end of WaT not feel BIGGER?" I think maybe I feel like I was excluded from the thoughts of the main character too much, at least, more than I'd come to expect from the previous novels. Dalinar's big ending? Not enough from inside Dalinar's head. Much of the action is described from outside, and even when we are in his head, we just don't seem to get very much. Same with Kaladin, and very much so with Szeth. Szeth came the farthest - by far - in his arc in this book, and the last few chapters just felt... insufficiently personal, I guess. Of all the main arcs, Shallan and Renarin/Rlain felt the most emotionally fully-fleshed out to me.

Thank YOU for your kind words, and for being part of the discussion! If it encourages even one person to more thoughtfully consider how their beliefs affect others, it's well worth the effort. I notice (with little surprise) that no answer has been forthcoming to my earlier question: "what's different about THIS PARTICULAR Old Testament rule?" I'll rephrase it. Why are Christians, in general, OK with ignoring so many OT biblical commands - no tattoos on your skin, no dual-fiber clothing, the requirement that a man marry (and impregnate) his brother's widow, etc - but hold on so fiercely to this one about male homosexuality? (I also note, the bible has nothing to say about FEMALE homosexuality, so I infer lesbians are fine ) Is there some reason why this one Leviticus verse should be taken any more seriously than all of the others? Plus, my understanding is that Jesus himself became the "new covenant", breaking the holy covenant described in the Old Testament. If true, none of those rules should be relevant anymore. Jesus never said one word about gay love. Different question: if you don't agree with the last paragraph, I have no problem with you saying "my religion forbids me from doing X." But why on god's green earth does anyone think it's OK to say "my religion forbids EVERYONE from doing X", especially people who don't follow that religion? Muslims don't eat bacon. Should we pass a law against bacon? I hope that I have not gone too far; I don't want to be seen as attacking anyone's specific religious precepts. I support religious freedom, and I'm happy millions of people find joy and peace in their faith. I simply hope people who choose to can consider my questions as ways to examine their own beliefs... I'm not looking for a fight, nor do I feel that this is an "argument" that someone needs to "win". But these honestly are some issues about religious thinking that have never made sense to me.

Wouldn't this require me to read (fluently) in ancient Hebrew, or Aramaic, or whatever?

This right here. It's taken me a long time (I'll be 58 in a few weeks) to learn this lesson: how I feel about something today is not the same way I felt last year, or ten years ago. Ergo, my opinions may continue to change. Intelligent people change their views in light of new facts. If we all try to remember that we are humble travelers in this life, learning and changing as we grow, we greatly reduce the chance of hurting each other. I'm with Sir Terry Pratchett - "evil starts when you treat other people like objects." Hurting others is the only real sin. I've never been able to accept a religious viewpoint. We know religious history goes back around 30,000 years, more or less; thousands of cultures, over thousands of years, have had "gods" that told them what to believe and how to behave. All of them said people who follow OTHER gods are wrong. Many of them say people who follow other gods are heretics, or infidels, or sinners, and that they need to be taught the "correct" way, sometimes violently. The idea that, of all the millions of gods that have been worshiped over the centuries, the one *I* believe in is the REAL one, is preposterous to me. I'm happy to accept I live in a country (the US) that guarantees freedom of religion, as long as that includes freedom FROM religion as well. I get along fine with my religious family and neighbors, I just don't share their beliefs. I'm not an atheist; there may be a higher power, but I'm confident it's not described by any existing limited human religion. I do believe that many religions are making an honest effort to "know" the true nature of divinity, but they invariably fall short when doctrine and dogma develop. I accept that many people get useful benefits, both in terms of mental health and social behavior, from their religious beliefs. I have no trouble with you practicing the religion of your choice, as long as it's not hurting anyone. If you are burning "witches", or lynching black people, or blowing up "infidels" (and, yes, those were all done by religious people for religious reasons), your religion has crossed a simple line for me. Disallowing a loving relationship between consenting adults seems to me to be exactly the opposite of what a loving god would want, and it's certainly hurtful. Just ask them. I honestly can't understand where the Christian "biblical" opposition to homosexuality comes from. As far as I can tell, Jesus never said a single word about it. Sure, it's mentioned explicitly in Leviticus, but the Old Testament is full of rules no modern Christian follows. No planting two crops in the same field. No wearing clothes made of two fibers. No tattoos. What's different about this one? As others have said, I'm free to believe what I wish, but it's not up to me to decide how other people's behaviors measure up to my beliefs. If I'm voting to restrict the rights of others, in cases where no one is being harmed, I'm working in favor of oppression, not love. I'm free to say "I'm not allowed to do that," and I'm free to say "I don't like when you do that," but it's not OK for me to say "you aren't allowed to do that," except in cases where the goal is to prevent harm.

Ookla, You did a fine job of being tactful and respectful. All that time invested was worth it LOL I certainly agree that there are some works in media where attempts at showing diversity have come across as clumsy or heavy-handed... but not all writers/showrunners/directors are equally skilled. A badly implemented story may be a bad implementation, rather than a bad story. Plus, as @Returned correctly points out, frequently the negative reactions people have to those attempts, when carefully examined, really just boil down to "this is different from what I'm accustomed to and I don't like it." Heteronormative romance is NEVER a problem in media, even when it includes abduction/Stockholm Syndrome (Beauty and the Beast), species mixing (The Little Mermaid), an actual literal child in a adult body (Poor Things or Big), or a host of other awful examples from the past, oh, 1,000 years of literature. But two young adult men (malen) in a healthy, respectful, trusting relationship? SICK! I'm fascinated by this and I'd love to have a discussion about it. Perhaps this forum isn't the place for said discussion; if so, I'd be happy to take it to private messages. Or perhaps there is another topic/subforum where such a discussion (necessarily inclusive of individual religious and cultural beliefs) would be more appropriate. Or, maybe this topic IS the perfect place for it. I welcome the thoughts of the mod staff.

Agreed. It's clearly a theme he wants to explore: to what extent do individuals adhere to group identity? Every group we've ever seen - in all his work - has had factions and dissenters. And in every case, he's done a commendable job of showing that no matter what group we "belong" to, we are all PEOPLE at the end of the day, capable of making our own choices. I'd say it was already more complicated than that. The Listeners decided to walk away from singer "identity" long ago, and I'm sure they were hardly the only ones unhappy with how things were going back then. I expect this is only part of what Brandon is trying to show us. I think it's safe to assume that he's picturing the pre-human-invasion singers as similar in many ways to pre-colonial indigenous peoples here on Earth, like native Americans or native Africans. There was no uniform culture across those vast continents, but rather a multitude of tribes and small nations, each with their own unique history and tradition. I imagine the singers the same way. When BAM was imprisoned, the singers lost most of their sapience and free will (with the exception of the Listeners) and of course all their various cultures were lost. That was around 100 generations ago. Suddenly, the Everstorm arrives and all the slaveform singers return to full personhood. They remember their lives as slaves, but obviously none of them can possibly know anything about whatever culture their ancestors had. As you say, the only culture they know is the one they were raised in - Alethi, Veden, Thaylen, etc. Their original culture, whatever it might have looked like, was stolen from them, and (like all of Sazed's religions) it's long gone. Of course they fall back on what they know, and of course they also resent it, and try to create new cultural traditions of their own. If it sounds familiar, I think it's by design. We also know that there were humans who fought on Odium's side during the Desolations, as well as singers who fought on Honor's. And I'm willing to bet there were MANY, human and sInger, who didn't fight at all, and simply wished to be left alone. Again, everyone in the Cosmere, no matter race, is a person. There is no doubt that said cracks are already there. But any argument that assumes single, simple "human" and "singer" interests is missing the essential point. There is no group identity, on individual people, trying their best. There will be people (of all races, human, singer and spren) who are angry and want to fight; there will be people (of all races) who want to work together, and there will be people who want to be left alone. It will indeed be a chaotic mix, expected on a large post-war multiethnic continent. Nothing on the Cosmere is as simple as we might wish it to be. True, but again keep in mind: not ALL singers, and not even all Fused. I expect that when the Stormlight Archives resumes, well see some nations of primarily singers, some primarily human, and some mixed, with all the complicated racism and patriotism one can imagine. Some will get along happily, some grudgingly, and some will fight.

That's me. I'm straight, I accept gay people exist, and rust and ruin it's 2025 - how can that still be surprising to anyone? Just like I'm white, but I don't get mad when the stories I like have brown people in them. Representation in media matters. I think Brandon has done an admirable job of learning about many different kinds of human experience and including them in his stories. Always perfect? No, but nobody is. He's trying. I find it hilarious when people talk about "indoctrination" or "shoving it our faces"... as if cis/het romance hasn't been shoved in our face for 1000+ years. A gay person in a novel is just as likely to "turn you gay" as a black person in a novel is to turn you black.

I would like point out that just because we have seen ONE way to do something does not imply that's the ONLY way that thing can be done. There might be any number of ways to split Harmonium. Likewise, there may be many ways to split Retribution's godmetal. Also, that WoB strongly implies that Taravangian could choose to produce Raysium if he wished.

Can't disagree. I think two main factors are at play: 1) Brandon's #1 editor and story collaborator, Moshe Feder, retired after the Secret Projects were finished. He has admitted in interviews that this affected his final drafts in a number of ways, and the tone of the prose/dialogue definitely seems to be one of those ways. 2) He's at his best when he's worldbuilding. The first few novels of a series have always flowed more easily for him, I think, because it's what he really loves most. Once the world is built, and it's "just" storytelling, some of the magic is gone.

Welcome, always great to have another Sanderfan on board! My take: Brando might certainly be setting up something for the future regarding Syl's Connection to the Stormfather and a Stormlight-providing Highstorm (there will be 5 more Stormlight Archives novels, we all hope), so not DEAD... but maybe in a coma. For now, the situation is NO Honor-Storm and NO Honor-Light. Only the Everstorm, all the time and everywhere except Azir, and Warlight being given out via some sort of "autopilot" mode while Retribution's attention is elsewhere. I assume Warlight will power both Fused and Radiants. It also seems that the Tower is still providing Towerlight for inhabitants of Urithiru, despite (or because of) The Sibling and Navani being in some kind of stasis. Apparently Cultivation left some of her Investiture behind when she left Roshar. It bothers me that we never heard anything about the Nightwatcher... is she still out there?

Yes, I'm dredging up this ancient topic (25 days later LOL) because I'm MAD. I agree with @alder24 there doesn't seem to be a reason for Taravangian to care one tiny bit about the Sleepless... they haven't done anything! All the prophecy, all the mystery, all the "we're so powerful you don't even know" and "we know so much more than you dumb mortals", and for what? NADA! BUPKIS! One very concrete disappointment I had in Wind and Truth was the lack of Sleepless; I was looking forward to them finally getting off their collective hordeling asses and DOING SOMETHING USEFUL. We've known for a long time that the back-cover blurbs were, in-universe, authored by Sleepless, so we know they are watching everybody and seem to really care. We learned quite a bit in Edgedancer and Dawnshard, and they promised to get more involved. I was hopeful. We got early indications they were watching the Listeners and Urithiru - both Venli and Lift noticed "purple cremlings". I got excited. Then? One five minute Interlude with Rysn and Nikli - one that is largely unconnected with the major plotlines - a few more vague epigraphs (collected above, thanks @The Sovereign), story over. The End of the World as we Know it™ comes and goes without a single rusting Sleepless doing a single rusting thing. That's it? Storm that.

First of all, it's art, so all we really have are opinions. Any attempt to "rationalize" or "logic" our feelings is pointless; it made you feel how it made you feel, and that's all there is to it. Nobody's opinion is "wrong". I loved a lot of things about this book. Every single Interlude was amazing. The broad strokes of the plot for each main character group were good-to-excellent. For me, the biggest disappointment was the TONE, and this is (as OP notes) due in large part to the prose. Roshar in The Way of Kings felt ENORMOUS. Weighty, drenched in history, atmospheric, truly EPIC in every sense. The rest of the Stormlight Archive, unfortunately, gradually lost that feel. Now that I reflect on it, the Mistborn series shows a similar arc. The first book gave us a Scadrial full of mystery and steeped in lore, all very serious and compelling. The later books were anything but serious, and as the mysteries became smaller and more concrete, they also became less compelling to me. I love Wax and Wayne dearly, but MB era 2 is a different genre than era 1 was. The Stormlight Archive, in terms of tone, seems to have gradually shifted genres from book 1 to book 5. On one hand, it's clearly a reflection of what I as a reader want and enjoy; if the series morphed into something I like less, well, that's on me. On the other hand, "promising" one thing in the first book but delivering something wildly different in book 5 feels a bit like a bait and switch - "this isn't what I ordered." On the Gripping Hand™, we all know by now what Brandon loves doing best: WORLDBUILDING. I'd argue it's his superpower as an author (Sanderlanches notwithstanding); it definitely seems to be what comes easiest for him. And it mostly happens in the first (and best) installment of a series.

OK, 13 pages of posts and counting, I doubt I'll have anything new to say. I'll just reply to some good comments from others. I think this sums up my feelings as well. The first 2 books were JUST SO GOOD, everything since feels like a letdown. Not BAD, just... not quite living up to the promise, I guess. Agree. Those storming moons have been tantalizing me ever since they were first described in tWoK. Now we hear that Odium's Perpendicularity is located at fallen fragments of a 4th moon, but get nothing else about this? I'll charitably assume it's setting up cool things for SA 6-10... but if not, I call shenanigans! After his frankly TERRIFIC introduction at the end of RoW, I was psyched to see who El was and what he could do. I enjoyed the Alethkar scene with Odium, it wet my lips. Then... like 30 seconds of (non-POV) screentime, a Shardblade just for shock value, done. Letdown city. Not gonna lie, I NEVER would have figured that out. Pretty rusting cool. Hard agree. I kept waiting for more to be revealed, to see connections to other things... never happened. Maybe SA 6-10? Yes! I really loved those scenes, and look forward to what those two get up to together. Maybe a Vasher/Lift novella? Ditto. My wife and I read to each other, and here's me choking up and trying to see through tears every other chapter. Dalinar's final goodbye to Navani, Shallan forgiving her mother, Kaladin being A TRUE STORMING HERO... Brando still knows how to make us feel the feels. Indeed. How will it affect a child to be BORN in the Cognitive Realm? I'm happy Adolin lived (I would have bet against it), but being so egregiously separated from his wife and child is a kick in the gut. No, my friend. No, you were not. (*sniff*) OK, enough for now. I didn't even make it past page 3 LOL

I'm not sure why you feel there needs to be ANOTHER loophole. Is there textual evidence a "Contest-specific" loophole? Seems to me that this can fulfill Odium's goal of being satisfied with the outcome no matter which champion wins.

Looks like El vs Sigzil on the Shattered Plains, per Ch. 19:

I think we know what "the loophole" is now, as of Chapter 18: We still don't know what form the Contest will take, but the "loophole" seems clear - three attacks at three capitol cities, and, if successful, by Alethi law, three entire kingdoms belong to Odium.

I cannot refute any part of @Returned's argument. It's one reason why I refrain from "theories" about how magic systems work, or will be revealed to work in the future; we don't know, and we CAN'T know. It's based solely on Brandon's imagination, and when we ask him, we get answers like "well, when Shards get involved, some weird things can happen," or "mixing multiple magic systems will produce unexpected results." I agree it's a little disappointing that what began as satisfyingly hard magic systems have become softer and fuzzier over time. I try not to let it prevent me from enjoying the stories, and I'm mostly successful. But it certainly has made me less interested in trying to figure things out in advance, or really even trying to understand the big picture, magically.

Hmmm... I just had this same issue today (Error -200). Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate!

I see what you did there.

Hard agree here - the same four main HUMAN characters who have been described in every single back cover blurb. How can anyone doubt that: the Reimagined King = Dalinar. (He is King of Urithiru, but he's reimagining his own role... seeking the truth of what happened to Honor/Tanavast.) the Reforged Spear = Kaladin. (He was broken, but is healing, and the spear was always his chosen weapon... "the hope of spren" is yet unclear, but I'm sure it's him.) the Reformed Woman = Shallan. (Previously THE LIAR, she is finally deciding for herself what she wants... seeking Mishram.) the Reborn Assassin - Szeth. (Literally died, brought back by Nale... seeking to save the people of Shinovar.) Oh this is interesting… The Listeners/Singers aren’t the children of Honor & Cultivation, they’d be the children of Adonalsium, right? Who could it be other than the True Spren? I think "the children of Honor and Cultivation" simply refers to all Surgebinders, regardless of race. Mostly human, as the next lines indicate, but not solely.