Trusk'our

The Well of Ascension was used while Preservation was still around. Just for some clairification on the topic I DO NOT mean to ask if it's possible to Ascend and become the Vessel of a Shard of Adonalsium. I mean to ask if it's possible hypothetically to use Feruchemy to store and tap enough Investiture to transcend the standard limitations placed on the magic system. Basically, creating a massive well of Investiture programmed to do one thing, but since there is so much, you briefly become a kind of "mini-Shard" and can now move beyond what the Investiture's original purpose, just like with the Well of Ascension.

I was on a different thread recently that talked about a Fullborn vs a 5th oath Windrunner. In it, I made a joke about a Fullborn tapping enough Wakefulness to ascend (similar to the Well of Ascension) and using the power to smite the Windrunner. My question is, would this actually be possible? If a Feruchemist were to theoretically create a Metalmind, perhaps the size of a city (using Soulcasting), could they fill it (via compounding over a very long time) with enough Investiture to ascend if they tapped it all at once?

Sounds more like what Awakeners do. You can hide from them via Feruchemical nicrosil. Though, you just got me wondering @Brgst13. Can Awakeners with enough Breath and enough practice perhaps tell which specific Invested powers people have? That would be pretty interesting.

Brass is warmth. Bronze is wakefulness. I suppose you could theoretically ascend via tapping enough wakefulness, similar to the Well of Ascension, then scrape the Windrunner's obliterated remains from the face of the planet after getting hit with a literal god's power. Seems like a totally legit strategy to me! Fullborn wins! (I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist)

Feruchemical steel has limits to how fast it can make someone due to friction with the air. Wouldn't Windrunners have the same issue limiting their speed? Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, please do. I'd rather be called out than propagate false information), but doesn't Kaladin make a comment at some point in the SA that he only gets a bit more speed after Lashing himself several times? (oh my gosh, I can't keep up with you guys, you post so fast! More than once I've been in the process of replying and two or three comments are already made!)

Crap, I forgot about the duralumin again. I don't know about the nicrosil compounding though. It may be that when the infamous "nicrosil is like copper" quote was given, it meant that you can't just stack up the Feruchemical nicrosil's stores to make them more powerful than what you originally stored, but I'm not sure. Maybe you could do it, in which case, any Fullborn is back to being rediculously OP, at least for combat purposes.

Probably true. I'm guilty of always assuming that any Fullborn we meet would be like TLR, but that's not really true. Their Allomantic powers would be far more limited, and while their Compounding would also be pretty strong, it wouldn't be unstoppable, especially since the effectiveness of Compounding is tied directly to how powerful the practitioner's Allomancy is. But I'd still give a well trained, well-prepared Fullborn a 98% win rate, even if they have difficulty breaking the Windrunner's plate and have to avoid their blade. Too many enhancements and useful powers on the Fullborn's side, giving them more raw power and versatility in more circumstances.

Sweet, I got it right

I think I know the quote. Is this it? Well, I meant more like the Fullborn would constantly tap or burn metal as a natural habit, similar to TLR, since they could Compound. They'd just keep enough metal stored on their person or nearby I would imagine.

But Fullborn also have Feruchemical chromium Compounding for "spidey sense" and Allomantic tin for sharpened senses. Would it not be outside the realm of probability that the Fullborn would sense the Windrunner ahead of time? Particularly since they are a Compounder and can tap at least a little 24/7?

But chromium Allomancy drains Investiture. So, if the Fullborn punches his head off, wouldn't the Stormlight get drained too?

Ohhhhhh wait a sec, is it more like how Hemalurgic blessings don't need extra Investiture put into them to function? They get a steady stream of energy from the spiritual realm? I had been comparing plate to Allomantic pewter, but this would actually make sense too. Sorry, I totally forgot about that somehow.

You can choose what Connections you store. With what we know from the Ars. Arcanum, Feruchemical duralumin is the ability to store and tap the ability to form Connections, not the ability to store Connection you already have. I don't think that a Feruchemist would need to form a "friendship" Connection beforehand, since they could store and Compound the ability to form it when they wanted. Whether they could direct it as one could Steel Allomancy is debatable though. Yeah, a Feruchemist couldn't change their age via Connection storing or tapping, likely since they can't affect Connections already in place in their Spiritweb.

I assumed that they did. Or at least they had experimented with their powers and honed their skills. They could fly very fast, but I don't think that their body's speed would be enough to counter that of a determined Fullborn tapping Feruchemical steel. But, we don't really have an exact amount for how much quicker a Radiant gets when they are holding Stormlight. I actually saw a while back that a thread for a Radiant and a Fullborn, and someone had said that a Radiant could "keep up with a Fullborn no problem" in terms of physical speed, but I kind of doubt it, unless we were to see some really impressive feats of sheer speed pulled of by a Radiant in the books, which I don't recall seeing any. Just minor increments of one's reflexes and speed. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what Brandon decides though.

Huh. Maybe it just had some Stormlight still permeating it? I don't know, it just feels like it goes against the theme of Sanderson's conversion of energy for the Cosmere. What if you break living Plate? Does it still need Stormlight to regenerate?

Didn't Dalinar see in his visions that Radiant Plate fed off the Radiant's Stormlight instead of Gemstones? I don't think that Plate, living or not, would be able to function without Kinetic Investiture, since it provides an actual boost to the wearer's abilities, unlike Blades, which seem to have their effects stem from the Realmatic consequences of them being large portions of Honor's and Cultivation's Investiture.

I'm pretty sure that's how the powers work, yes. You'd just want to be careful who you give those powers to, since they could use them against you. I think the reason the Excisors are needed is because they replace the natural powers of a Soulbearer, allowing other Metalborn to store their powers in the medallions for others to use. In fact, I would bet the "Excisors" are nothing more than one or more Unsealed Metalminds created by the Sovreign for the Southern Scadriens. But, we don't know for sure yet.

An interesting idea. I'd like to see a hack like that in practice. I think that it has more to do with the practitioner's perception though. You move on something big enough, like a train, and it feels stationary. This translates over to the Slider's powers, making their Speedbubble move too.

You can Feruchemically store the ability to form certain types of Connections, such as to people and places. It may not be possible to steal a Spren Bond this way as it requires Identity, but you certainly could use Feruchemical duralumin to become a Squire to a Radiant. Also, when you tap Connection, it "reaches out" to something else. You can't be "Connected" to nothing, so a Fullborn tapping Connection to people would likely be able to become a Squire that way, if I am correct. That's not quite true. We do actually have some idea of a 5th oath Radiant, as Nale is one currently. I don't really see much extra going on with him, but still, he could simply not have chosen to use it yet. Even with that in mind, I'd still bet the Fullborn would be victorious most of the time, due to their power set, unless we see something new when Kaladin finally takes the 5th oath (seriously, I can't wait). Then can the Fullborn have access to any number of loyal minions who are tapping Unsealed Metalminds created by said Fullborn? Fullborn doesn't have a limit on how many people they can Invest. A Radiant does.

A Fullborn with the strength of a normal Mistborn plus a Feruchemist? Still Fullborn, unless the 5th oath a Radiant swears gives them something truly powerful. I think the two most dangerous (at least to enemy Radiants) powers that a Fullborn has are Feruchemical steel and Allomantic chromium. A Fullborn can blitz them with incredible speed with Feruchemical steel, then drain them of Stormlight via Allomantic chromium, which also can prevent the summoning of the Radiant's Spren as a Shardblade (though only as long as touch is maintained). Plate might grant a resistance to chromium, but it's also fueled by Investiture, and so is likely to be affected just as easily. I don't think that a Windrunner of the 5th oath would go down easily unless the Fullborn used Feruchemical steel and Allomantic chromium though, as Plate is really tough, and a Shardblade gives them a reach advantage. Okay, Feruchemical duralumin is clearly more dangerous than to Radiants than I had previously realized. I mean, the squire trick I had thought of, but I hadn't considered the blade-stealing trick. Though, the Spren's will is involved, so it likely would only work once by catching them off guard.

These are some pretty good ideas. Maybe you could start using Hemalurgically granted powers responsibly as a society if they do as you suggest. TLM spoilers.

This is really clever (and accurate). I wish I could push the like button more than once! I laughed out loud at these I just gotta say, I know that it's a joke and all, but I am really not fond of Jasnah's character and I think that she gets way too much praise. Just my opinion, and know this is a joke, and I read that this isn't your actual opinion of her, but thank you so much anyway. You just made my day I also really loved this one

I've actually been wondering about this for a while now, and actually did come up with a post about it long ago, but I think that I may have changed my mind on the concept. Hemalurgy is a fascinating thing in the Cosmere, and it has lots of potential. But would it really be the best thing to practice openly on Scadrial, or anywhere in the Cosmere? Hemalurgy can; (1) grant powers to people of your choice, (2) take powers from those of your choice, (3) transform people into different kind of creatures. Power granting: With this ability, you could give your constables Invested powers, such as Allomantic pewter, Allomantic steel, or Feruchemical gold, making them much better at their jobs. You could also give certain other government officials powers to improve their jobs, such as Feruchemical copper, zinc, or bronze. This should increase their efficiency, which would then improve their society. If people got too selfish or irresponsible with their newfound power, you could remove the spikes and give them to someone else. However, a better alternative seems to already exist. Malwish Medallion tech also provides Invested powers and does not need to rely on Hemalurgic spiking to do so. It would also be easier to remove a medallion from an abuser, since they need to be recharged. Hemalurgic spikes do not, and they also cause pain to the donor and the recipient. This brings us to out next issue. Power removal: Using Hemalurgy, you can remove powers from Metalborn who abuse their natural talents and recycle them for something (hypothetically) good. Many outlaws exist in the Roughs who have access to the Metallic Arts, and having the very real threat of having their sticks taken away from them might push them to shape up. However, this could end up doing even more bad than it solves. When you introduce motivation to place blame on someone with a natural advantage, one that you might possibly get to have if they lose it, you will undoubtedly see people in positions of power abuse the laws that make it possible to steal other's Investiture. This doesn't just apply to government officials either. If Hemalurgic spikes were to become monetized rather than simply being a tool for the government, the rich would almost certainly be the ones to benefit, since they have the actual means to grab such powers; you wouldn't be putting power in the hands of the people, you'd likely end up putting even more power in the hands of a handful of privileged nobility. It's true, you could have people voluntarily give up their powers to trusted individuals or desendants if they were terminally ill, or perhaps if you found a way to non-lethally remove powers, but you'd have to be careful not to abuse such an occurrence. Transforming people: This is probably the least useful aspects of Hemalurgy, at least as it stands now. If you've read Shadows of Self... it's hard to forget the Chimera. That is evil. There just isn't a good way to use that application of Hemalurgy. Now, I could see the analytical insights provided by Hemalurgy's mechanics being used in a beneficial manner, but only if controlled carefully. It would be like CRISPR in the Cosmere, or at least researching Hemalurgy could lead to such knowledge. That is useful, and I think could be worth pursuing. It would likely require access to the Spiritual Realm to achieve any useful insights in this area though, but such a thing wouldn't be unattainable to those with the resources and knowledge. My conclusion: after considering all of this, my personal thinking is that knowledge of Hemalurgy should become widespread but should have strict laws placed upon its usage. Then, any secret organizations like the Set cannot use it as effectively since awareness of its existence will be common knowledge, and research into its uses for Spiritweb manipulation could be pursued on a societal level. I no longer think that powers should be regularly given and taken though, and Scadrial's laws should reflect such; it's just too easy to abuse, and Unsealed Metalminds seem like a better alternative to granting Invested powers to more people anyway. I think that power donation via Hemalurgy could still be useful in certain individual cases (Wax, Wayne and Marasi could use a power-up by recyling Set agent spikes to better deal with the rest of the Set, for example), but on a societal scale, it isn't something I'd hazard. What are your thoughts on the matter?

We still haven't seen any Hemalurgy of the spiritual quadrant at work. I really, really want to know what these things do though. Unfortunately, this seems unlikely until Brandon Sanderson decides it's time, but for now I will settle for educated guesswork. Here's what I think with my current, limited knowledge: Hemalurgic aluminum: Pretty straightforward, we know it removes all Invested powers from someone, but since it's aluminum, it doesn't keep the Invested charge and the powers are effectively destroyed. I am extremely confident in this particular take on this particular power. The next three are assumptions with what I feel is good reasoning behind them, but are to be taken with a grain of salt until they are proven (or disproven) to be the case. Hemalurgic nicrosil: Steals Investiture. It was mentioned by Sanderson that this is referring to raw Investiture rather than it being a "wild card" and taking any power like Atium. I assume from this that you could give someone Heightening-like effects from Hemalurgic Nicrosil, though unless you found a way to increase the number of charges you could put inside a spike, it wouldn't be very useful (you might be able to do this by Feruchemically blanking the Identity of the donor). What would be most interesting about this though, is that it is a human attribute, not an Invested power. Because of this, it would likely twist you into some inhuman creature, similar to a Koloss or Chimera. So, if someone ever learns to use Hemalurgic nicrosil to extend their lifespan, Scadrial might have a new race of creatures that are a bit like vampires: once humans who gave up their humanity to become effectively immortal. Hemalurgic duralumin: this allows you to take someone else's Identity and Connection. This is a bit confusing, since all Hemalurgy takes a portion of someone else's Identity along with the Power or attribute. I think that it might be done more wholly in this case, perhaps because Connection and Identity are more closely related than we'd once thought? In any case, I think that the Connection part might be useful for transferring skills (similar to Selish Forgery), known languages (like the Malwish medallions), emotional bonds, or even one's tie to time of birth, which might be useful to reduce one's age, but without needing to Compounding Atium since you own Connection to birth would balance with the new Connection, perhaps giving you some kind of "median age" that you'd become. You'd still age, but you could replace the spike with someone else who was youthful eventually (actually sounds a lot like a vampire now. Also, quite possibly evil). The Identity portion might also have some interesting consequences. We know that Singers can change their forms by toggling their Identity via Spren Bonds, so perhaps by using a duralumin spike you could change your race, biological sex, or other facets of your appearance. It really depends on whether you would get extreme changes like we see with most Hemalurgic constructs, or if it works a bit differently for duralumin (which we don't have proof for yet, but Sanderson has done things like this before, such as with aluminum Allomancy or copper Feruchemy; some powers work differently, mostly just because it follows the rule of cool). Hemalurgic chromium: the only metal that we're told only might do something; steal destiny. My current assumption is that this somehow works by manipulating Fortune, which is some kind of "gut feeling" that every person has. I think that Hemalurgic chromium takes someone else's Fortune, but since it has actual pieces of their Spiritweb, it has portions of their Connection and Identity, that it is still "shaped" or "directed" along the same path the donor would have been nudged to take. Perhaps this mean that the Hemalurgist with the new spike would get gut impressions to do things the other person would do, but their own destiny would interfere and push them to make other decisions and their memories, personality, culture, and previous life choices would interfere, altering the path of said destiny. this means that you could try to steal someone else's destiny, but it isn't guaranteed, since destiny is tied to personal choices, past, and location as well as instincts. This is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt though, since we don't have a clear idea of what Fortune really is yet. In any case, these are the headcannons of mine as to what the spiritual Hemalurgic metals can do. I'd love to hear what all of you guys think though, and am open to new ideas as to their functions!

I suppose that a Fullborn we'd see doesn't likely have the same level of Allomantic power as TLR, so they would be much more limited in both raw Allomantic might as well as having their Compounding being less efficient. They still would be extremely powerful though, as not only do they have access to at least one power that would be useful in basically every situation, they could also theoretically create Unsealed Metalminds and doll out powers of near equal power to anyone they so desire. One well-prepared Fullborn is perhaps the single most dangerous semi-mortal combatants in the Cosmere. A well-prepared Fullborn with an army of loyal, Invested minions though...well, even the Fused and Radiants would be hard pressed.