Honorless

6 hours ago, Llstml said:

Granted, every time you play it, the temperature in your room will drop to -30000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. I could make it cooler if you want, though.

 your bane is that you will never get a good score on any test, and will never get a job.

That's physically not possible due to the fact that absolute zero (0° Kelvin) stands at -273.15° Celsius or 459.67° Fahrenheit

but eh, details

Since the last player didn't make a wish, let me launch it off again with a wish

I wish for... 

power

Hahaha! In trying to argue morality there's always rotten apples aplenty!

But my point still stands, @Bigmikey357, that was Moash's idea of gratitude and Kaladin was, in fact, tempted. As we all would've been if we'd had the same choice. He tried to pay him back the only and best way that he could think of.

Yes, it only adds to his wretchedness but that, to me just adds to the tragedy of his character. And lo: this thread of discussion came to be!

What is the most important goat a man can take?

It's the next goat, always the next goat

I am, unfortunately the Goat of Ages

The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their goats

I've learned that goats will forget what you said, goats will forget what you did, but goats will never forget how you made them feel.

Edit: Oh no, these came out a bit worse than I expected them to...

Here's some nice ones:

Iä! Iä! Goat fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nfah Goat R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

If your goats don't scare you, they aren't big enough

I... am Goat-man *snaps*

Not much, just chilling

Welcome to the Shard, @Anxietyspren!

Hmm... is the native Rosharan Kaladin by any chance? Or Jasnah or Lift? 

@Bigmikey357, I think I'm going to disagree with your point here.

Moash did think to pay back Kaladin with the one thing he got the chance to pay him with, he tried to bring Kaladin into the fold with Graves' conspiracy to try to assassinate Elhokar to give him a chance for vengeance out of a sense of kinship.

Messed up, I know, but technically the truth

43 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

For the last line one could be testing authority merely to keep that power in check not saying I agree but felt I had to point it out.

Well articulated, @Booknerd, I agree.

The only thing that helps not worsen my perspective of that topic is the fact that lighteyes have so much political power that what happened was literally within Elhokar's and Amaram's legal rights even if Kaladin was proven right. Dalinar was way ahead of his time in handling that situation.

This level of disparity is later proven (even more) true in Oathbringer, during Kaladin's return to Hearthstone, where someone speculates that the Shash Nahn brand was given to Kaladin for hitting a lighteyes! That's messed up!

That reminds me how much worse the skaa had it in Mistborn era 1... plantations under the ashen sky, no pay, child killed for spoiling a party, teatime and decapitations by the fountain,... 

Oddly, on occasion, I sense a peacefulness within. You would think that after all I have seen - after all that I have suffered - my soul would be a twisted jumble of stress, confusion, and melancholy. Often, it's just that.

But then, there is the peace.

I feel it sometimes, as I do now, staring out over the frozen cliffs and glass mountains in the still of the morning, watching a sunrise that is so majestic that I know that none shall ever be its match.

If there are prophecies, if there is a Hero of Ages, then my mind whispers that there must be something directing my path. Something is watching; something cares. These peaceful whispers tell me a truth I wish very much to believe.

If I fail, another shall come to finish my work.

~from Alendi's journal, the Final Empire

Poor Alendi, poor Leras

Edit: oops!

When Lift follows Nale "I will listen to those who have been ignored"

damnation, that made all the "Voidbringer!" comments bearable

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

thank you! thank you! thank you! 

On 5/25/2019 at 3:33 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Basically just what the title said. We know that the future is not predetermined in the Cosmere, so do all of those branching paths create new Universes?

I believe that what you stated in the title of your topic is correct: yes, the Cosmere does exist in a multiverse but I don't know about the "every possibility is true" version of the multiverse. I mean, Brandon always explained Fortune in a mathematical manner- as though peering into the Spiritual Realm expanded one's mind and opened it to multiple possibilities, that their minds were now running on a faster OS with better calculating power due to their Spiritual aspect being their perfect selves. Then again he has also described it as a place where "time and place are one". But when he talks about the mechanics of two Atium users or one Atium and one Electrum user or the situation with Renarin in Odium's expanded Diagram, he always expressed them as calculations of probability.

I think of the Cosmere as being contained within a multiverse in a different sense, because of the WoBs stating that:

@Karger, you sir have made me have cravings for bonded battle-Chasmfiends!

Personally, that was the moment I lost respect for Dalinar. And then the situation with having Amaram as the head of the new Knights Radiant... oof. He eventually made good but I felt as betrayed as Kaladin. Also after that moment cemented my dislike of Elhokar. Instant reaction: execution! But Adolin's show of solidarity after that scene was what made me attached to him as a character.

It didn't make me loose my faith in Kaladin. Just made me feel more distant to him, he is so... defeated. That was a bigger show of vulnerability than the entire WoK on his part, imo. So that really enriched his character for me.

I voted for Eshonai primarily because I really liked her

But I genuinely believe that having her as the flashback character would add more to the story. At this point, our understanding of Singer/Listener/Parshendi (what are we supposed to call them now? first one is dated, second one refers to a split-off group that survived the False Desolation with their minds intact and the last is an exonym. None encapsulate the whole newly freed group of people) culture is still lacking. We do know that humans (both Ashynites and Iriali, and possibly the Dysian and Siah Aimians too, while the rest of the races like the Natan, Unkalaki, Herdazian are just descendants of these other groups' mixing) were refugees on Roshar. Then they slowly conquered it. We haven't really had the perspective of the Listeners on the sorrow, memories and sheer scale of history of the original native people of Roshar who are slowly losing their entire world. We will eventually get the sorrow of losing one's world for humanity, I think, since the Heralds are set to be flashback characters in the back five plus there is the Silence Divine.

We saw what their society was like at the brink of extinction but not how they were before Alethi contact. We do really need Eshonai to tell her story rather than Venli because she is a much more empathetic character. I remember reading the chapter in Oathbringer where Dalinar tries to negotiate with Venli, and feeling frustrated that with how she was acting before being horrified at the fact that I'm basically asking her to forgive generations of war where her entire race was systematically wiped out by the people they had provided succor to, their spren and even their gods chose to side with the interlopers.

Oh, we know, yes but there is still a disconnect between knowing and understanding, and I think Eshonai will be better, narratively, to bridge that gap. Eshonai's curiosity would be a good foil to Venli's bitterness, I think, as per Brandon Sanderson's original plans.

While I agree that Venli would have interesting stories to tell, with her researching on the Forms of Power, meeting Ulim the Voidspren and knowingly bringing the True Desolation, tricking her sister and sabotaging peace attempts but these things can easily be told from her perspective as she thinks back to them. It will add to an interesting story, sure, but not an especially enriching one. What really made the Stormlight Archives special to me was the moral complexity of the situation, expanded upon in each of the books, not the magical technicalities (though those are pretty awesome too, especially since they are literally bound to the former). Venli, I feel, is really only good as a flashback character for the magical side of things. She wouldn't be bad for building up the story of the Listener people but she would end up furthering her own story more than her people's. That's where Eshonai's empathy would be more enjoyable for me.

The questions that Venli can answer can still be answered by her, in the present. Eshonai, however, is gone and we can only get that part of the story from the flashbacks.

On 7/3/2018 at 6:09 PM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Brandon confirms that Trellium is from a shard that we know and the nine shards that were known at the time (this is in the WoB footnote) were as follows;

• Devotion
• Dominion
• Preservation
• Ruin
• Honor
• Cultivation
• Odium
• Endowment
• Autononomy

Devotion, Dominion and Honor are all splintered. Endowment believes strongly in non-interference and attacking Scadrial would be against her intent. Cultivation is in the Roshar system and attacking Scadrial would be against her intent. Preservation and Ruin have become Harmony so that's not an option for obvious reasons. That leaves only Odium and Autonomy. Odium is scared of Harmony according to Brandon so a head on confrontation just 15 years after the events in the first half of Stormlight Archive seems a little bit far fetched. I doubt Odium escapes the Roshar system while splintering Cultivation in the first five books of Stomlight which leaves Autonomy as the only remaining option.

Hmmmmm....

Could it be someone other than the usual suspects?

Wasn't there something about needing Elantris Books 2 & 3 before getting to Mistborn era 3? Devotion or Dominion (or a combination of the two) if someone manages to Ascend despite them being stuffed into the Cognitive Realm of Sel, deciding to attack Scadrial would make for a shocking turn! 

So sad that list doesn't include Ambition.. If she had survived Odium's onslaught and then decided to conquer Scadrial, that would've been awesome!

Also, the fact that Mistborn 2nd era is set after Stormlight 5 and before Stormlight 6 might very well be more indicative of it being a Rosharan Shard. Who better than Odium? He has a history of attacking other Shards..

Also, there are so many Worldhoppers taking interest in Roshar. Could be that one of them steal (and I would consider it theft) Honor, that is to say Ascend in a manner similar to how the Ire were planning to do with Preservation. I'd be very sad if Cultivation dies so I'm not considering it. But we do know that Cultivation, if she were on Scadrial would've opposed Preservation rather than Ruin, as the former would become less about protecting and more about stasis, while both Ruin and Cultivation are about change. Maybe she escapes Roshar and decides to punt the new god off to make space for herself. This would affect Scadrial and Roshar very harshly but would be very interesting to see!

But it probably is Autonomy. Mostly because of Paalm's comments of being free of Harmony's influence and the name of the god being Trell as it appears multiple times in White Sand (Trell the mason, Mastrell, Lestrell). Plus, Autonomy is suspected to have aided Odium in splintering various other Shards (Devotion, Dominion, maybe even Honor!) Within Trelagism (now Trellism?) the belief was in a god of the sun and a god of the stars. People worshiped the latter while pretending to worship the former as "he was a jealous god" and "his single burning eye" (Sauron reference!) "hid the Thousand Eyes of Trell". On Taldain there are two sides called Dayside and Darkside, so physically similar to what the faith might be describing. Plus, I always thought the Purelaker faith of Nu Ralik and Vun Makak were also very similar, with them also worshiping one god while pretending to worship the other jealous god (it could also mean that the Investiture in the Purelake fishes belongs to Autonomy! It fits with how her systems normally interact with the local fauna, as seen in Sand Mastery lichen and parasitic worms of Patji's Fingers that the Aviar swallow)

Or it could be worse: both Odium and Autonomy attacking Scadrial.

Then again maybe Scadrial would prevail and Kelsier might join the two Shards to create Revolution!!!!!

(that would be even better than Kelsier going on a spaceship in Era 4, seeking the Shard Ambition wherever she ran off to after getting mortally wounded by Odium, to become a real god! )

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 

 

I had read it in its entirety and loved it! Wonderfully compiled! 

But you too missed that scene in WoK where they discuss schools of ethics! Why?! I loved that scene! 

Agreed, with all of the points there.

Jasnah is misunderstood in both Roshar and by many readers and that post was scary long! It took me hours to go through it all!

Welcome to the Shard, @FridgedCrisis, glad you made it safely 

Glad to have you here, @Fan Till The End. What's your favourite book (not just Sanderson but everything that you've read)?

Seems you double-posted.

Just go to the other topic, at the top there's a bar that says 'moderate', click hide, state your reason (that you accidentally double-posted) and you're good to go. Don't worry, I did that too when I joined.

Hope you enjoy the Shard!

Don't listen to @ElephantEarwax! Do not repeat that phrase!

2 hours ago, Brightness Warrior said:

Granted! You now have an identity crisis even worse than Shallan, as you have no idea who you are and what you believe in.

I wish that my braces could be removed right now, without any body parts going with them.

Granted, your teeth are now how they were before you got braces (so, no braces!)

Your bane is that your breath will always smell bad

I wish for all the Elder Scrolls games, for free

@Nellac, thank you! That's probably a very important part of why Moash is so heavily disliked that I overlooked. He is the only character we see in the Stormlight Archives actually becoming worse (arguably aside from Shallan, part of why people are annoyed with her post-WoR).

@Solant, Dai-Gonarthis? Huh, that is a really great theory! The Unmade and their effects are presented from the perspective of the native Rosharans, to whom these have become everyday events, like with the Alethi Thrill... and with such a human thing to think, in a vulnerable moment when a person would want to believe what the Unmade is saying... yup, it could be Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher "holding people's sorrows and consuming it". It's suitably Odium-y and his theme of Void and "Give me your pain!"

@Karger, completely agree. With Sadeas especially, there is a disconnect between the reader and the character because we, in real life, wouldn't have faced anything on that scale, his personality doesn't really facilitate such understanding either.

It's the same in many superhero stories. People don't hate the final villain. In fact, the final villain seems kinda cool. The first few villains though... they fall within the scale of what we can feasibly grasp and feel a connection too. It reminds me of 'Worm' by John C. McCrae, where the final villain who goes on a rampage of world destruction doesn't seem as evil as the first villain we see, simply because the latter's actions can be comprehended within our own scale of evil.

You are right, it would be easy to have an understanding of where Moash is coming from because people would have experienced getting angry & feeling vengeful and then feeling disturbed as, instead of Moash dealing with it, we get to see him in both WoR and Oathbringer going completely off the rails. It might seem to be a mirror but only reflecting the ugly side of oneself.

@ND103, indeed, the side we choose doesn't define us (just ask Venli!)

And yes, the plot gets what it needs. If none of the bad things happened, the story itself would be worse off for it.

As for the Moash haters: it's the internet and people tend to go crazy with the anonymity and start cussing at people, which they wouldn't do face-to-face (hopefully). 

On 10/15/2019 at 9:41 PM, Kaladin-Stormblessed said:

I guess I have an issue with people hating on Moash or hating on any character. I believe this stems from their lack of seeing things from the character's perspective. These characters (Moash/Elhokar/Dalinar/Shallan etc) may have a bias or tainted view about certain things. We might not agree with these views but these views are there because of this character's past experiences. That very fact is what makes them a realistic and amazing character.

After all, put yourself in the character's shoes... if you had to experience what they did, isn't it possible that you might react the way that they did? Isn't that what we as a reader like to see in characters - depth, motivation and a certain degree of realism despite the fantastical element of the world they are in.

Exactly. Sometimes it feels like people reacted to the perceived ideal moral response rather than actual human response. Which is a damnation shame because that means they're missing a big chunk of what makes these books amazing* (though these reactions are  understandable given how powerful the moments of self-improvement were)

*As for that amazing part: an honest exploration of subjectivity

The ending, huh

There's a very long, freely available web serial available online called Worm by John C McCrae under the pen name (err..  user name) of Wildbow

It is an amazing exploration of morality and choices. Quite grimdark, very logical in its approach to Powers, highly recommended

2 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Thank you good sir or madam

Thank you for that consideration! Most people just assume whoever's talking to them is a dude by default unless they specify they're a girl

It means: as far as I know

@Kaladin-Stormblessed thank you for presenting your opinions and contributing to the discussion at hand

Roshone was partially responsible. Elhokar, out of embarrassment, delayed their release. It was that which led to their deaths.

Agreed, but Elhokar's casual disregard for darkeyes isn't tempered by a genial nature towards all human beings either that Shallan and Adolin have.

Agreed on the other points

On 9/28/2019 at 7:03 PM, Ahriman said:

I don't want it to happen at all. Let him keep a blade that's almost conscious if he must, but I have no interest in seeing anyone come back from the dead. I also don't want Adolin to be anything approaching a Knight Radiant.

Agreed with @Ahriman, partly.

Don't want more Kholin Radiants. (sorry Adolin, sorry Navani) They're perfect just as they are. If they were magical too... 

While I do want Maya to heal I believe that in stories some things should remain impossible to achieve, no matter how much better things might be if they were possible.

Maybe, he talks to Maya throughout and finally in Book 10 she comes back but as a friend not his Nahel Bond spren granting him Radiancy. She's bound to have trauma at this point. They might have a little talk at the Epilogue... yes, I can already picture it. That would be more beautiful.