LewsTherinTelescope

I mean, Ruin and Cultivation are imperfect names for the concepts embodied by the Shards. Decay and Growth work pretty well (and in fact Decay was originally going to be Ruin's name). That's like saying Dominion is Survive because Skai fought back against Odium, or that Cultivation is Survive for trying to do the same. People don't want to die.

I mean, if you ask me what connects to Change, Growth and Decay are probably some of the first ones I'd say, personally, which are pretty close to those two. And we've been associating Ruin and Cultivation with the two sides of change since long before Dawnshard.

I mean, those aren't "tangentially related", that's the core of what at least 2 of those 3 are about.

I mean, could just be Re-Shephir was imprisoned in an imperfect gem and escaped, while BAM was imprisoned in a proper perfect gemstone.

I mean, that might just mean it's not the best grouping

...why would a Dawnshard need to be involved there?

The Intent is only tangentially related to this, so I don't see why it belongs in here any more than any other Shard that wants to not die.

I'm trying to think, when have we seen him exaggerate things? I mean, he's not really the nicest guy, but generally, he has good reason for what he says. That's certainly a possibility too, and I could see it being that, even if atm it's not what I think. True, that's a good point.

He's certainly not always perfectly accurate, but on something as basic as "is this more, less, or equal to a Radiant", he can probably be trusted. I mean, he had a pretty good reason to not like Kaladin, Kaladin did kill his kid. Generally, sure, but we see in his thoughts at the end of Oathbringer that he is scared of attracting Rayse's attention. Fair enough, I guess. Lol. I still think there's probably some reason or another it's just not worth it for (whether it's getting Rayse's attention, because it is tied to the planet super heavily, or is just a massive hassle), but I can see your reasoning.

The Oathpact is not what keeps Odium bound. I find it to be more likely that that is due to Dalinar being bonded to the SF, who is both the largest chunk of Honor's power and merged with the CS of Tanavast. While I do find this likely, it's important to note that that's not fact. That could just mean "before Vorinism gave him the title Herald of Luck", not necessarily "before he was a Herald".

...huh. I've seen that WoB, but missed that implication. But combined with the new WoB.... interesting. Very interesting. Could be, wouldn't surprise me. The potential for multiple planets could also mean different kinds on each one. Could be, but him bringing Aethers up seems odd if so.

Oh, it isn't? I hadn't seen others before (just ones about them being moved to Yolen completely), cool. Hmm, could be. Or like how "spren" refers to a lot of things. Oh duh, I forgot all about the sources. Maybe animals can eat from the Verdant source, or eat food containing bits of Amberite near whatever their source is, etc, and gain power? Yeah, that would make sense. Most non-Shardic magics are along those lines, it seems like. And that could match with Aethers being more sapient in Liar. Wild Aethers would be pretty cool. Society of sapient vines or something.

Well well, this is intriguing for a couple reasons. First off, "many of the settings that involve Aethers"? Sounds a lot like multiple planets have Aethers, which would be very interesting. That, or the Aether planet varies a lot in how Aethers naturally interact with things. Second off, that's certainly not how Aethers were in the novel. We do know that Aether of Night could be canonized relatively easily, and that the magic is mostly the same. So Aethers being used as they are in the novel is possible. But it's also possible to have environmental magic with them? What would that be? Wild Aethers, capable of using their powers on their own (almost like a proper PR version of spren)? Animals bonding to Aethers (which could have some pretty cool possibilities)? Combination of both? I am very curious to see these settings. Source for the WoB is a Dawnshard spoiler thread, but the question was only very tangentially related to the story, so I feel fine posting it? But unless you've read Dawnshard, do not click the link to the source.

The Stormfather specifically says more than just an unoathed Radiant. Yeah, definitely. The difference is in design, imo. The Fused were not designed to draw a bunch of power, but to be CS who I guess can exploit the natural bonding system to take over a body (and I feel it's implied by the SF that they didn't even have Surges at first). The Honorblades, however, were designed to grant power. I don't think he'd move fast enough to avoid a massive sword. And I mean, if you just stand there holding it tightly enough, I don't think he can like grab your hands and rip them off it. So far as I'm aware, the two main things we've seen him steal are the lerasium (just sitting in a room, with TLR no longer near it), and the Moon Scepter, which seems to have been sitting in a museum or something? Unsure exactly on that one. They know of him, but generally not where he is. I feel the Honorblades are probably watched rather heavily by various forces. Sure, but it's pretty dang hard to steal something someone can just dissolve to mist to hide it and you can't get at until you kill them, when you can't harm people.

I mean, I assume it'll be touched on eventually in the books. But people keep asking him, so he decided to answer.

Sorry, forgot to respond to this part. Yes, Hoid has figured out a lot, and managed to steal a lot. But he usually does it at a point where it's vulnerable (such as after the fall of the Final Empire). Based on the fact that the Shin have retained the Honorblades for 4.5k years, I'd say that they haven't had many such weak points.

That could be, but like.... don't get me wrong, someone with an Honorblade is dangerous, especially because they don't have to follow any version of the oaths, but "like a Herald" feels like a massive overstatement, and it'd be kinda underwhelming if there wasn't anything to it at all. Not contesting this, I agree. Keeping the power low is probably the most effective way, but there's probably other ones - could totally be that being a godmetal is enough, because a chunk of metal becoming sapient naturally over time seems unlikely (but then, maybe it does work that way and you can get sapient objects by just making it out of godmetals, lol). Less Invested than the Stormfather is a rather extremely high bar, lmao. But I agree there, no way is an Honorblade higher in total Investiture than the SF. True, I guess. He probably heals quick, sure, but it's not like it takes more than a second or so to keep him from grabbing the Blade if someone drops it. I'd wager that there's one per Honorblade (maybe a second as an "heir" of sorts), and presumably a lot of thorough background checking. Hoid's talented, but I think it would take a lot that he may not want to deal with. And taking one would probably also draw a lot more attention than getting a spren.

Pailiah is, Chana is not.

Yeah, fair, lol. Isn't mentioning that the Honorblades have deeper potential sharing more information than he technically had to give? I mean, I agree he keeps a lot of secrets, but if he is mentioning something, I'm inclined to think there's something there. I feel like there's a difference there, though I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Like, the Perp is a thing Dalinar can for short periods of time choose to do. He can choose to close it, or to not open it in the first place, and it can't stay open for long, as well as only being able to be used where he is. With the Honorblades, someone can hide it and take it anywhere, use it for a longer period of time, and there's not a way to shut it off. I forget, did the Perp recharge the Radiants themselves, or just their gems? I'm gonna need to recheck. It's a large step, I agree. But I think this being due to a Shard directly creating something can potentially explain that. (I'm also not sure there's no cost, although I have no idea what the cost would be, as if it does exist, we haven't exactly seen it.) I mean, there's probably ways to keep them from gaining sapience somehow. I can't imagine them not being heavily Invested. I mean, Splinters and godmetals are both pure Investiture. So one as a sword is gonna be preeeeeeetty Invested. Hmm, never thought about it this way. I suppose you could say that. When it comes to emotional impact, I agree. But I do think Brandon will also want to make the powerset different in some manner, even if that difference is just fuel amount, with the main powers remaining the same. I mean, bit hard to steal a Blade that presumably is dismissed the majority of the time. You'd have to get one to drop it, then grab it and dismiss it before another kills your hand. Even if you heal it, keeping you from grabbing the Blade doesn't need you to be wounded long. Not being able to harm someone makes getting an Honorblade from them really hard, even for Hoid. If the Honorblades do grant SL, all would probably be important. (Also, I feel like Radiants using Honorblades to gain extra powers when fighting could end up playing a role.) An Honorblade can be dismissed without negative effect. (Which also makes stealing it incredibly difficult.) Assuming he could get ahold of one, which I doubt.

Yeah, this is where that WoB and the Stormfather's quotes come in, as I see those as evidence. I agree just saying "it's the Honorblades" without any evidence would not be enough. To avoid having to go back all the way to the original messages, I'll post the WoB and quote again. (Emphasis mine, as well as a comma I added in that I feel is present in the audio, but not transcribed, and I think helps clarify my interpretation.) I interpret this underlined portion as saying "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [were] direct access to his essence", with the "were" implied as it is a continuation of the statement "they were pieces of Honor's soul". On the other hand, it sounds like you interpret this as "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [he also gave them] direct access to his essence". While I can see this as an interpretation of what he said, it also feels like somewhat awkward phrasing, and the implied verb being "were" feels more natural to me. This line to me indicates that using an Honorblade can, if you understand what it is and what it can do, allow one to become almost like a Herald, power-wise. I would highly doubt an Honorblade makes one a Cognitive Shadow, and it granting the reflexes would be a little odd, as Taln still has them despite (presumably) not having his Honorblade. By process of elimination, and combined with the WoB above, it seems likely to me that the Honorblades grant the direct conduit to Honor, which is a power that would be extremely dangerous and worry the Stormfather, and would make one "like a Herald, nearly". Yeah, I would agree that it's not a perfect comparison. I see it less as an exact "this is it", and more as establishing that it is possible for one to have an ability to draw power from the Spiritual. I then, using the WoB and the SF quote, speculate that the Honorblades grant a much larger conduit, functioning differently but with similar underlying fundamentals. Ah, I see what you're saying now. I would of course agree that in general, a person would not be able to just draw power. I do, however, believe that it is possible for a Shard to allow this, by giving a very powerful Splinter of their power. Yes, they're definitely pretty different. I wasn't saying it was directly comparable, just that it is the closest we have seen to the Honorblades, as god metal that grants access to forms of Investiture in some manner. But nothing we've seen is really a 1:1 comparison. This is actually something I find makes it feel more likely to me. As of now, Moash is mainly just a less-skilled Szeth. He needs something to make him an actual threat, and I think learning of this could be part of it. (And the fact that he's got at least part of the soul of Jezrien, the Herald to whom the Honorblade belonged, feels like it could be relevant.) I see a few potential downsides. One, the Honorblade may be harder to get off-planet - getting a spren off-planet is apparently difficult, but I feel like a solid object will be much harder to remove limitations on, however that ends up being done. Two, there's a lot more spren than Honorblades, so acquiring the former is much easier. Three (and I think this is the biggest one), stealing an Honorblade when you are unable to harm its bearer sounds rather difficult to do, especially given that seven of ten are guarded by one group who can probably rip your hand off if you go near any of them, one is held by Odium's forces, whom Hoid is trying to avoid, one is held by a Herald who can definitely keep his safe, and one is.... who the hell knows where Taln's Blade is, honestly. Also, we know that Hoid left the second bead of lerasium because he could using Fortune tell that taking it would be a bad idea, and I would guess taking an Honorblade could similarly cause issues he does not want to deal with.

I guess, but that still doesn't really feel quite enough to me. But I have no logical arguments against it, just a gut feeling. So you're probably right, I guess. Yeah, I know the feeling lol. When you know you had a WoB but just cannot find it.... I'd say that he probably could only draw a limited amount (whether that's a limitation of the connection or just how much a body can hold safely, idk, probably the latter), but this part's totally just a pedantic thing, so I'll drop it, as we seem to at least agree on the basics that the amount useable at any given second is limited with these things. No, I did argue that at first, but then you pointed out that the idea didn't really make sense, so I changed my mind on that part. I mean, they clearly didn't manage to make perfect replicas of the Honorblades anyway. So I see it as plausible. Allomancers and sand masters both draw Investiture from the Spiritual as part of the process of their powers. It's nowhere near the level of the direct Honor conduit, of course, but I think it is precedent for such a power existing, especially taking into consideration that Honor directly made the Honorblades to be powerful weapons, while the others appear to be more natural outgrowths of the magic. Dalinar But that's a smart-alek answer, considering he's a really weird edge case lol. I mean, the Honorblades are probably closer to spren than people, though I wouldn't say they're exactly the former either. (Unless I misunderstood the sentence.) I don't think we've seen anything on the level of the Honorblades before. Lerasium beads would be the closest, but an Honorblade both grants a more powerful power and is probably far, far more Invested than a bead of lerasium (though I suppose a lerasium blade could be Invested similarly?). I personally think that a Shard making something capable of letting someone draw power seems within their limits.

Too limited to Lash even a single object at Lift when she keeps escaping? I've seen that one before, and it just hurts my head, to be honest. I'm not really sure what the heck he's saying. The heat needs refilling, yes (or according to Suit, it does; from what I understand, it is a subject of some debate). But the heat is not stored in nicrosil. Each medallion consists of two metals, nicrosil granting the ability to tap somehow, and a medallion with some of the attribute stored for convenience. So the heat is stored in an attached unkeyed brass metalmind, not a nicrosil one. You'd think they would, yet they don't even realize they can summon the Blades instantly, despite the fact they've held the Honorblades since a couple millennia pre-Recreance. So clearly the Shin don't fully get it. That's a fair point, and my mind completely blanked on that. So probably right about those. Yeah, the rate is what I was referring to. Ultimately, they have an infinite amount accessible, but they cannot use an infinite amount at one moment (so no Lashing moons or something insane like that). I mean, the Nahel bond isn't exactly identical to the Honorblades. Spren take much longer to bond, and to reach the Blade state, for example. I would guess Honor had to design the Honorblades to hook up to the Spiritual, and spren simply can't do this (as you pointed out that it's highly unlikely lesser spren do it either). Yeah, this is what seems the most likely to me at the moment, as it's what normal medallions do. Perhaps I should rephrase what I have been saying. I do not think the Honorblade itself draws SL, but rather that it allows the user to do so. So in this case, it would be granting an ability. I see it as similar in concept (though not actually mechanically the same, just trying to get the idea across) as if Vin ended up storing the ability to take in the mists.

I don't think he has no redeeming qualities. But I would still call him a terrible person, no matter the intentions he had.

Which is confusing even if he doesn't have infinite SL. Just.... carrying a bunch of gems should not be beyond his ability, and there is really no reason I can see that he wouldn't. I just don't buy the reason that it takes too much SL to carry it, Nale is capable of carrying a pouch. I guess that's a possiblity, but as of now, we have seen no indication that the metalminds contain the source of Investiture (the definition they give in the book is different than the way we usually use the word, so "Investiture" on the chart likely refers to the former, not the latter). Yes, but neither really understood the nature of the Blade. I may have misunderstood what you said then, my bad. Mmm, something to this level would be somewhat new, I agree. But I would argue it's not fully new. I would argue Breath likely draws small amounts (otherwise, why would it keep running forever and be able to just be recovered?), and I would further argue that the natural spren bonds many Rosharan animals have (such as chasmfiends) have likely do too. I don't think an Honorblade grants an infinite amount at any one time, but rather a very very large amount, and an Honorblade is likely far more powerful than either of the previous two examples, so I could see it working similarly, though not identically. What I mean is that a lot of Feruchemical attributes are also Hemalurgically stealable. Strength, senses, determination (I would say emotional and/or mental fortitude count as this partially), memories, Connection, Identity, Investiture, Fortune (no way is "might steal destiny" not about this), and probably mental speed ("intelligence" probably means something similar). In fact, every single Hemalurgically stealable attribute seems to have a correspondent in Feruchemy (the various power-stealing ones would probably all be storable by nicrosil). As such, these all are part of the spiritweb. I would guess this is more similar to how medallions are actually made of two metalminds, one granting the ability and one containing a metalmind corresponding to that. The Bands probably just contain other metalminds for convenience. I mean, we have seen no indication that he tapped anything besides ability in regards to Allomancy.

I mean, the whole point of Oathbringer was that that's not an excuse at all.