Schneeente

I might remember incorrectly, so please feel free to correct me if I do: I thought that the Heralds (and their souls) have been "worn thin" over the decades. And that neither of them - except Taln - had the mental fortitude left to go to Braise. If that is true, having experienced thousands of years of uninterrupted "non-torture" should make them so so so much more reluctant to go back, since the fear/anxiety of that horrible experience had time to fester. It's not like the Heralds had a couple of relaxing years, some therapy seasons, and are now fully physically and mentally rested, waiting to go back to Braise again. On the contrary, living so long is a burden on the soul as we have seen with the Fused and which Hoid also confirmed (if you cannot store your memories externally). I don't want to make that comparison and it's totally inappropriate and false, but it brings the point across that I want to make or how I see the situation. Israel just got 3 hostages free. They were tortured for months. In my mind, if in ten years Israel might need ten volunteers who become Hamas hostages, I would expect those three hostages to be the last ones to volunteer for that job because ... well ... I'd imagine merely picturing that in their minds would trigger an insane panic attack. But well, I am not psychologist or psychiatrist, so I could be totally wrong. But these Heralds have been tortured for so so long and so often, now going back voluntary (or even taking the slightest chance that this might happen, if that separation of body and soul doesn't work) ... it just seems implausible to me that anyone would be willing to do that. Sorry for the crass RL example, I just heard about that peace treaty and hostage/prisoner exchange this morning and... well... I hope I could make myself clear why it is hard for me to believe that the Heralds are willing to chance it.

Personally speaking: Someone who is not only theoretically willing to die for a cause but is literally dying for it - that's the opposite of rejecting responsibility and the opposite of pushing the difficult part onto someone else. If Dalinar had been reluctant to sacrifice himself and instead would have picked the easy way out, becoming Honor and continuing the unwinnable fight for another ten thousand years - would that have met your approval? Or if Dalinar and Taravangian had done what happened on the last planet, giving more and more power to their followers until the planet got destroyed/uninhabitable - would that have been "taking responsibility" in your opinion? I'm really curious what you think Dalinar should have done.

Ahhh, true! Yes, it does, totally forgot about that in the few weeks since I have read it. I guess if you explain it that way, that it was Odium's corruption that made them do the opposite of their initial intent, and that was cured... well, that's fine with me. I thought they had become cynical by themselves, having lived as long as they have. Sanderson did explore the effect of a super long lifespan in his previous books, and some of it was that someone's "main belief/attribute/value" gets stronger and more distorted/unbalanced over time. I assumed that's what had happened to the Heralds. I still think their willingness to renew the Oathpact was at least "curious" and I wish we would have gotten an explanation for it - because there could totally be an explanation for their willingness, buuut... we never received one. Except I conveniently forgot about that one as well?

Yeah, right, that was her name, thank you. So there are two options: - Either she has miraculously healed her corrupt mindset (that probably developed over hundreds if not thousands of years) in a couple of seconds (which is admittedly not impossible but I'd have wished to receive an explanation for it) and now she's totally committed and back on board OR - she is still looking out only for herself. I guess in that case ... now that I think about it, it would still be best to follow her compatriots because she doesn't need to be afraid of getting tortured even if it doesn't work as promised and secondly when you are as old as she is, it's probably fun to make some new experiences. And not be stuck in the same city forever. Although, she should be in the spiritual realm... or wasn't she in the city when Taravangian summoned that wave for Cultivation to prove his resolve and ruthlessness? But I guess she cannot be killed by that in the first place. Well, anyways, thanks for the clarification.

Some time has passed since I read WaT, so with a calmer mind and a bit of distance, I am ready to share my reactions as well: Kaladin + Szeth (9/10 points) Positive: Learning about Szeth's past was super interesting. Seeing how this poor boy has been on a journey to find someone—anyone—who knows what's going on and what's right or wrong was deeply engaging. It's such a profound question that everyone struggles with, especially nowadays with our easy access to an overwhelming amount of information. Figuring out what is true or false and what action is right or wrong really resonated with me. People, especially in the United States, cannot even agree on the facts anymore; they basically live in two separate worlds. For me, Szeth's quest/past/struggle felt personal and believable. Kaladin trying to "heal" Szeth—and later the Heralds— was amusing to watch. Because Kaladin is such a caring person, it worked better than even he himself expected. Especially when he bonded with Szeth over realizing that Szeth wasn’t like Kaladin but rather like his younger brother. That was a beautiful moment. I also liked that Kaladin was outmatched by Nale by a lot. It would have been frustrating and hard to believe if Kaladin, with only 5–10 years of training, had already surpassed a demi-god with eons of experience (not literally billions of years, but you get what I mean). The linear, “quest-like” pace of Kaladin and Szeth’s trip was a nice counterpoint to the unforeseeable path Dalinar and his wife took. Kaladin and Szeth’s path seemed straightforward from the start: visit all the monasteries, defeat the bosses, and advance to the final boss. Simple. Dalinar and Navani didn’t even know where to begin, nor did they know where to go, what their destination was, or what they were even looking for in the first place. Sylphrena was amazing as usual, which isn’t surprising given she’s basically a little goddess. She’s funny, witty, and quite smart, as we’ve seen, and far more autonomous than she gives herself credit for. You go, little spren! Until the very end, I had no idea how their journey would conclude. That’s why it never felt boring or dragged out. I kept looking forward to them finding more clues. At one point, I was convinced (when they started carrying 3+ Honorblades) that they would reforge the Oathpact with ten “new” people. Since I wasn’t sure when Book 6 would take place (in the Cosmere timeline), I thought maybe a thousand or two thousand years would pass, and then we’d read legends of these characters we already know, smirking at how exaggerated their deeds had become. Ishar sharing the Heralds’ accumulated mental pain/depression with Kaladin was perfect. Cultivation couldn’t have planned it better. Kaladin was at the right place at the right time—likely the only Radiant who could take that burden without being permanently crushed. Kaladin’s entire life had prepared him for that moment, and I like to believe that him standing back up after experiencing it gave Ishar hope and the ability to see clearly again. Szeth renouncing his oaths after reaching the Fifth Ideal was amazing—so logical and satisfying. Finally… “I AM THE LAW.” When he took that power for himself, his first decision was to remove his own restraints and destructive potential. He wants to be peaceful. At his core, he wants to be a simple farmer; he never wanted to kill in the first place, and he sure as heck never wants to do it again. The more we learn about his past, the clearer this becomes. I loved it. The guy desperately wants to sit on his porch, watch his children play, and not turn hundreds or thousands of people to dust with his new abilities. Ironically, that’s exactly the kind of leader a nation needs... and I’m pretty sure people will look to him for leadership, regardless of how he feels. Listening to Nightblood was interesting and humorous, as usual. I liked that it became a bit more sentient by the end, and I loved its struggle to understand its purpose. “To destroy evil” sounds straightforward, but it’s actually quite difficult to define—especially for a sword without its own value system. And good luck finding an objective way to judge what’s evil. I still enjoy its enthusiasm, dedication, and growth. Negative/Neutral: Nale’s behavior didn’t make much sense; it was full of contradictions. While I see that it was written that way intentionally, it rubbed me the wrong way. Compared to other stories where you defeat someone and they suddenly realize they’ve been wrong the whole time, this solution was definitely better, but… hmm… Nale’s “conversion” was just okay. I’m not sure how Sanderson could have done it better, though. All the other Heralds suddenly appearing and being willing to go back? How does that make sense? I think they were even willing before Ishar explained he could separate their body and soul so they wouldn’t be tortured. Even if he told them beforehand, it just seemed way too easy. Maybe they felt guilty or the piece of Honor in them had been building for thousands of years, so they jumped at the chance to repent—but from my perspective, it was illogical that they would all agree to renew the Oathpact so quickly. Wasn’t there a Herald that Taravangian recruited into his “inner circle”? The woman who became corrupt? Did she also agree to return? Does that mean she changed her loyalty again because she somehow forgot her corruption? I don’t buy that she’s a spy for Taravangian; if she were, she would’ve just said “Nope, not me,” and then they’d have a huge problem because they’d be one member short. I don’t understand why Nightblood doesn’t have a handle made from the same material as its sheath. That seems like a simple fix to avoid being drained to death. Alright, I wrote way more than I intended about Kaladin and Szeth. I’ll write something about the other arcs another time. ^^

Yeah, I totally agree and I think that's why some people here (even in this thread) are seriously upset. If anything Brandon Sanderson shows us in all the Stormlight Archive books that there is no easy answer. And there certainly is not a single, easy answer. Life is messy, complicated, wonderful, and you can be a great person regardless of your skin color, your religion, or whatever arbitrary dividing line we are able to come up with. You can even be a great person if you are not a human! Who would have thought. The logical conclusion (for me) is that we don't have excuses if you do terrible things - we are responsible for our actions. And we have to live with the consequences. To answer the second question first: I don't think Sanderson has something specific in mind he wants to teach/show us. He's just telling a story, and if we want to learn something from it, we'll have to do the hard part ourselves The second question is much harder. Because very seldom "in life" (even in a fantasy book) is it "you kill that person or one million random other people will die". I think the conflict with Jasnah & Taravangian has shown that Jasnah would probably rather have 1 million random people die that she doesn't know that one member of her family (or all of them). Sanderson showed us beautifully with her character that blathering about "biggest common good" is easy, and you can even convince yourself that you would rather safe 10, 100, 1000, or a million random people than your one person you care about... but I am sceptical, I think if the light is out and nobody would know what you choose, most people would rather safe their family / partner / friends than random strangers, even if according to the numbers they "should have" done differently.

They should really have made the handle from the same material as the sheath.

Easy solution: You just need infinite searchers then. And those of course need infinite food and infinite houses where they live and infinite air to breath and infinite sewerages and .... So yeah, I guess that nicely shows my problem with anything infinite in reality. While for numbers that concept is easy to imagine, it's so much harder for anything that is not... imaginary/theoretical? I like that Sanderson made that restriction. That their power is infinite like an always refilling-well. But you can still empty that well and then you'll have to wait for more water to appear.

@AlmightyGir @Nitpicking @RefusesToElaborate Thank you for your various explanations, I appreciate it. I might have expressed myself in an unfortunate way. What I meant to say was that it is so hard for me to wrap my head around that shards "are" supposed to be "infinite". I like the clarification from Raven Wilder but even with that... it's so hard to imagine how anything could be infinite - in reality. Not in theory. In theory, sure, not a problem, you all could come up with plenty of examples. But is there anything in reality that is infinite? I mean, not even the stupidity of us humans is infinite, at some point we are all gone. And I would expect that the shards somehow draw their power from us humans or other sentient beings, somehow. And if that were the case, they would not be infinite because that "supply of gas" could run out once there are no other living / thinking beings around? I mean, even if the infinite power doesn't stem from humans or sentient beings, from somewhere it must originate. Well, I guess except we say it's divine and then of course we can just say it's a part of God and end the discussion. Still, doesn't make it any easier for me to wrap my head around even with that explanation.

man, this is so confusing and so hard to wrap my head around.

Ahhh, I see. You were talking about how powerful or impressive the BlackthornSpren might potentially be on the actual battlefield. As a combatant. Let me think about that for a moment. So the most important thing to realize is that a general's value is not his own, personal fighting prowess. Yes, it can be a nice addition but it's clearly a "nice to have" and not a must-have. His decisions are so much more impactful than his sword. And the bigger the army the truer that sentiment becomes since with every additional fighter you reduce the impact an individual has and increase the importance of strategic decisions. Where to attack. With how much force. How to distribute your forces so you don't get flanked or outmaneuvered. (Adolin taught that particular lesson beautifully to his student, I think it was one of the first lessons that you can lose even if you have the objectively stronger army. A lesson that is not only true in fantasy books but there are plenty of examples in our own history) Therefore to answer OP's question regarding how impressive the BlackthornSpren really is, we'd have to give more weight to his military / strategic knowledge than his personal power. Or am I totally off-track here?

I am so confused by the first part of your post. Can you explain how you mean it? Because at first glance being the supreme commander of the troops of the strongest shard seems super important. Or did you not mean that the post of general isn't important but that the specific person who holds that post is not "important" because they are ultimately replaceable and maybe even interchangable? So if Tavangian picks general A or B doesn't matter since they would all do roughly the same - following their God's wishes/commands?

I wouldn't even put those terms in quotation marks. You don't conquer a militaristic people like the Alethi by accident. Especially if you start out with fewer resources than some of your opponents. I think it's fair to say the Blackthorn's reputation is deserved if he has been largely responsible for the military success the Kholin family enjoyed. As a combatant and a general.. and now with some Retribution investiture I am sure he'll become even more terrifying than before. Two final points that speak to his competency: - he strategized with Diego (the legendary Herdazian general) on equal ground - he showed tremendous creativity and a better strategic understanding (about the cosmere wide war) than Taravangian - who admittedly is no general but is still smarter than during his best day with the Diagram. The only two real disadvantages I see are: 1. Adolin has become a great general himself and if there is one person who can anticipate the blackthorn it might be his son? 2. We know that Dalinar has the capacity to feel shame, remorse, and regret. He's able to change. Who is to say what this 'appointment' might do to him. Maybe this bloody, galaxy-wide conquering spree will start an entirely new journey for him. So I would say overall the Blackthorn is pretty impressive. And I think the only real alternative would have been a Fused... who definitly have even more battle-experience but they come with a whole lot of other downsides.

I can only speak for myself of course, but I never felt as if Kaladin was depicted as a real therapist. On the contrary, knowing Wit and his humor I've read the word "therapist" with a subtle ironic undertone. Nobody who has grown up in our world would consider Kaladin a "bona fide therapist" and Wit very likely isn't doing that either. For me he has always only wanted to help others. Protect them. Even from their own mind. I thought the way he explained to Szeth how to defend against bad thoughts was super cute and totally in character for Kaladin. Imagine your own thoughts are soldiers that you can field against the bad thoughts. And of course as with all soldiers first you have to train them, so you have to train your soldier-thoughts by repeating them in your mind again and again... I mean... isn't that authentic and in character? I agree that he's more hesitant now, unsure what to do... Wit and especially Dalinar and the Wind have placed so much expectation/pressure on his shoulders. And he has absolutely no idea what to do, how to "heal" someone on command. Especially not how to heal someone who (1) is hostile to you and (2) doesn't want to talk about "their problems". So what does he do? Totally another in-character thingy: He decides that eating stew together will surely help...

You might want to consider if the problem is really that Kaladin can only do "surface level" stuff (and doesn't even have a PHD in either medicine or psychology) or if maybe the problem is that you seem to expect a nonfiction book for students. The guy (Kaladin) is living on a different planet and is only using the term "therapist" because Wit dropped the name. Until now nobody on that planet has ever thought that you could cure mental illnesses or problems with the mind by talking. I would have been really upset if Kaladin suddenly started to behave like a therapist who studied 5 years at university and has 30 years of practice under their belt. I also think it's incredibly unfair to compare "depicting the problem" and "healing it". Showing what is wrong and how those people suffer and doing what is 2025 approved as the best method to deal with the issues are two totally different issues and it makes zero sense to have a fantasy book do the latter. I appreciate that Kaladin wanted to help and he did the best he could. Probably did better than many/most people would have done nowadays - even with our more advanced knowledge. Because the first step if you want to help someone is to care - and I'm pretty sure if I had been in that situation, I wouldn't even have managed to do that. Szeth now hears voices? Well, the guy is a mass murderer who killed other people just because they were holding a freaking stone, why would I even want to help such a person. I think the lesson here is not how to hold US-certified theraphy sessions, for me it is about how important it is to have someone to talk to. Szeth would have been super miserable and would not have been ably to grow if he didn't have someone he could talk to - share his immense inner pain with. And I think it was anything but cringe to see how Kaladin tried to help that poor, tortured soul.

I respectfully disagree. I hope you are not offended if I tell you that you sound to me like the sterotypical "random frontline soldier" who is only able to see how a certain event is affecting his own life and only in the super short-term. It's super frustrating to me reading your opinion because... I want to yell "you are totally ignoring the bigger picture!!!" but somehow I feel that repeating for the nth time why Dalinar's decision was really good for Roshar will not suddenly make you acknowledge/appreciate the underlying logic - much less change your opinion. But since your unfair criticism towards Dalinar totally triggered my protection instinct, I am going to do it anyways This is your sentiment if I understood you correctly: Todium conquered most of the world because Dalinar has suddenly become a moron who (1) sent his best fighters away, (2) wasted his own time in the spiritual realm, (3) because of that he couldn't help his troops by refilling their stormlight which ultimately lead to Todium conquering most of the world. ((Totally not the point I wanted to make but if Dalinar had done what you think would have been best, staying in the real world to fight on the frontline to help holding allied-territory they would have lost Thaylen regardless but they would probably have held the Shattered Plains although likely they would have lost more Radiants and wouldn't have established positive relationships with the "old Singers". Herdaz + most of Azir would have been gone regardless as well.)) Now, what you fail to understand is this: Even if by some miracle Dalinar's presence would have prevented the splintering of Azir, the betrayal of Fen and the subsequent change of side of Thaylen City, and would have defended the assault on the Shattered Plains, and would have reconquered Herdaz... and then would have bested Todium's Champion, even with all those "best case scenarios" Dalinar would still have preferred the outcome we got now. Because his goal is not "to win the next desolation" but to finally end the entire freaking war that has been going on for MILLENIA. All those things you suggest are exactly what previous generations of rulers did and what the heralds did again and again and again and again. Personally I think Dalinar's decision was incredibly clever, selfless, and the best one for the people of Roshar. Because whatever happens next, at least he broke the endless circle of war, rebirth, war, rebirth, war, rebirth...

Ohhh... The Fused when they talked about, they were wary of radiants who have sworn the fourth oath. And by now it seems the only "main character" who stays in the city will be Kaladin... => He's going to swear his fourth ideal when the city gets attacked, he will sacrifice someone and that will enable him to save the city? Something like that ~ Suddenly with a freaking shardplate he can mow them down. Although, now that I think about it, Windrunners do not profit at much from the shardplate as (potentially) other orders because they lose the ability to maneuver. Still... that's how I envision it to go down.

I presume that the different orders all have their own commander. But I really hope for the Edgedancers that Lift is their CaptainCommander! ^^

Totally shiny *nods approvingly* Sadly they "ended" it with the movie, there is no second season coming, ever ;( I love your comparison between River and baby yoda

This show reminds me so much of Firefly.. I like it a lot, imho the Mandalorian is way better than the last three actual SW-movies, and it hurts to say that.

So I think most people here are in agreement that he can only swear the ideal if he is willing to "give up" a person's life and is not actively trying to save the person. That leads us to the question: Which person is dying (or in mortal danger) at the time Kaladin swears his 4th oath? I think a member of his family would make is oath super powerful.... but it also seems so very unlikely that he is "strong enough" to do it in that case.

Consider my mind blown. Very well done. Now I feel stupid for failing to realize that myself. It explains perfectly why it was impossible for him to swear those words in this situation, thank you. I always wondered "why he didn't just do it". Lives were in danger after all.

Yeah, that is a very good catch @ windrunner recording in Urithiru. Why I am sure that the fourth oath has something to do with "you cannot save them all, accept it and FORGIVE yourself" is that he wasn't able to swear the ideal when it really mattered. When - from his perspective - his own life, Dalinar's and also Shallan's & Adolin's life were in mortal danger. In that situation he wasn't able to swear it. So it has to be something profound. Something his entire mentality/personality rejects. And as you quoted and we have seen it countless times his insane (and irrational) behavior to try to save everyone and then blame himself afterwards if it didn't work. All those little kids he tried to save when he was squadleader, then later when he tried to save slaves, also when he was bridgeleader. It's a reoccurring theme and it's time Kaladin faces that life is harsh, unfair and without mercy. I also agree that someone very close to him must die, the sorrow and guilt will nearly crush him (especially compounded by his depression) and then he has an epiphany and viola.

When I read that I thought "oh, how cute, they made rooms only for spren to use. How thoughtful." Absurd idea or possible?

I ship lardin - she knows him since they were children and suggested the "get yourself a shardblade then we can marry"-thing. So I think they might fit together. He obviously liked back, something that apparently doesn't happen often according to Syl.