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I've been treating Avast as the last name. Kora and Tan, the Avasts. Cute couple of gods.

Taravangian's morality has always been that the end justifies the means. Note - both on his smart days and on his dumb days, he never regrets the path he took or the plans he's making. He's never struggled with "two conflicting versions of morality." On his smart days he can make more clever plans, but on both his super-smart and super-compassionate days, he believes that if the end is right, the way to get there is worth it. On his more compassionate days he's more sad about it, but doesn't change his mind. He's kept this when he became Odium. Remember his realization? "With this new power, he can save everyone". He's still the same Taravangian - he sees the goal, judges it good, and decides the path to take there is worth it. It's the exact opposite of the Radiant oaths - it's Destination before Journey.

So, I think we've all been wrong about Cultivation, in a lot of ways. We've been assuming that since Odium is the Bad Guy, then whoever opposes him is the good guy. If there's an "Evil God" there must be a "Good God". Cultivation. And she even fits the "Earth Mother" god archetype. But... now that we think about it... what evidence do we actually have that Cultivation would be a good steward of Roshar? We don't. It's just a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" conclusion. And that's just not enough. Cultivation has goals, but, as she says herself, she's the mother of all that live, including the thorns. And now it's clear that she's been the one in charge of the Diagram all along - including all the horrors that the diagram has perpetuated. She's set up this new Odium, but there is really, really no good reason to believe that just because things are going the way Cultivation wants, that it's going the way the Protagonists want. I don't see any reason - yet - to believe she "made a mistake" in helping Taravangian ascend. I do see a reason to believe that she is nowhere near as benevolent as we've been assuming. Taravangian+Odium is exactly what she's been trying to achieve, and that is definitely scary.

He literally - in that very conversation - said that he was going to keep trying to kill Dalinar. The conversation went like Adolin: "Hey, we can get past our squabbles now, right?" Sadeas: "Nope, it's either me or Dalinar, one of us is gonna die" Adolin: "OK, I choose you" What, do you think being good would have required Adolin to say "yep, you're gonna try to kill me and my dad, I just have to let you take that shot, and then another and another and another?" Well, yeah, obviously! If the ambush in Rathalas had successfully killed Dalinar, nobody would have been saying that was wrong. And it wouldn't have been! There is no justice system in Alethkar or Urithiru that would lead to convicting a highprince, of anything. We saw that with Amaram, by the way. Dalinar proved Amaram had lied, stolen a shardblade, killed Kaladin's crew. And then Amaram walked away. Because the options are were for Dalinar to kill him right then and there, or nothing at all. (Well, the third option is to play politics and try to get someone else to kill him. None of these have anything to do with justice.) Adolin did not do it out of vengeance - he did it out of self defense. It wasn't as retribution for past crimes, it was Sadeas literally telling him "I'm going to kill Dalinar, and there's nothing you can do about it" and Adolin realizing yes, he can, this is the one thing he can actually do to prevent Sadeas from killing Dalinar.

Hehe, if you've just read that epigraph and not things leading up to it, there's a huge bit of info you're missing that turns that scene on its head, and to me explains why Hoid got messed up there. ...maybe. Because, well, there's two readings of that scene. One is the plain one - Hoid misjudged Odium (because of that bit of info that I think you're missing) and got beat up because of it. Lost the memory of V1 of the conversation, some Breaths, plus unspecified other memories. But then there's the other reading of the scene. Where he first introduces the scene with a reading of how you can trick people into thinking you lived a thousand lives that you haven't. And then the stuff with the coin tricks. Then V1 and V2 of the conversation. ...but then Hoid has half a dozen different indicators that something is wrong. His coins are in the wrong place. Design and the windspren are not where he remembers. His pitch is off. ...and yet he still ends the chapter saying that yes, that went exactly as he imagined it. Which, put together, could mean that the fake vulnerability was deliberate. Maybe Hoid tricked Odium, here. So, did he outthink Odium and feed him some false info? Or did he get beat? We'll have to RAFO.

But now there's a new blind spot - Rlain, that Taravangian doesn't know about.

Probably not. Brandon's been teasing that the novella that goes between books 4 and 5 would be called Horneater and would be about Rock - so probably what he's up to during the time of book 4. Pretty sure it's going to be (Mistborn Era 2 spoilers) Mraize has a green chicken, and it is confirmed by WoB that it IS an Aviar. The red one probably is too. And yeah, the steward was probably a feruchemist, and probably the same one that was mentioned in the prologue by Navani and the same one mentioned by Ulim as having scared off their agent. (And the timeline fits - Lift refers to him as being retired now, so it makes sense that he had more of a role years ago.) Jasnah implies that she has it back in Oathbringer. It's not seen on screen then, though. There's a moment where someone comes around during the battle of Thaylen field and sees geometrical shapes fading around Jasnah (which people have been assuming means she was dismissing her plate). And there's a conversation she has with Shallan, back near the end of Oathbringer, where Shallan says "I'm a full Radiant!" and Jasnah goes "yeah? Then where's your Plate, n00b?" (paraphrased). Here's my understanding of the timeline: 1 - she bonds Testament, advances in oaths, trying to save her family from some unspecified darkness 2 - mom tries to kill her 3 - she kills mom instead 4 - she goes holy crap, what have I done, and breaks her oaths, killing testament 5 - some time later, she bonds Pattern, and Pattern's powers are what we see starting with TWoK. There's questions about whether Shallan still has Testament as a shardblade, how this bond-and-a-half works for her, stuff like that that we don't understand yet.

He'd make Dalinar into a cognitive shadow like the Heralds. Probably keep the same body he has now, or make a new one each time. If there's a way to make Cognitive Shadows able to leave their home realm, Odium probably knows it and can use it. Unclear if he's done this with the rest of the Fused - he wouldn't have a reason to LET them leave, so probably not?

I've been using Toadium. It's just got that extra bit of disrespect in it, like "storm you, you toady, I'm not going to dignify you with a royal-sounding name."

In story, those scenes served to reinforce Nightblood’s power. It closing the perpendicularity and denting the honorblade was needed so that when it was used to stab Rayse, there is some previous buildup. Targeted at the readers who HAVENT spent years debating all the broken things Nightblood can do. It served an important story purpose.

Could be because the series are now closely enough intertwined that precise dates matter - Karen needs to actually align Stormlight with Mistborn, rather than just having a general idea of "first this book, then that book". Possibly the decision that caused the headache is whatever makes the timelines so close together.

It's definitely setup for something in book 5. I couldn't tell you what, though.

Well, given that his not-bond with Maya is basically the only reason they got the Honorspren on their side by the end of this book, him not being a radiant was worth it. A hundred new honorspren bonds is more important than one new Adolin bond. And maybe Maya can be revived anyway, and then he'll be a Radiant anyway.

The funny thing is, reading those, we still don't really know who got the better of that exchange. Obviously, the first reading of it is that Hoid screwed up and Toadium got the better of him, based on the terror that Hoid feels when Toadium figures out that he can mess with Hoid's memories. But the bits with Hoid looking down at the coin could indicate that he's figured out that his memories have been messed with, and in fact the whole prelude about lying to people by making them think you've lived a thousand lives (and the bits about the coin tricks) could indicate that Hoid knew his Breath-memories were a red herring, and were a successful ruse.

It seems really challenging, because there's a big gulf between what people can figure out if they're the sort of obsessive fans that pore over all the books, reread, come together and discuss theories, versus what people can figure out if they just... read the books. Once, straight through, no rereads. My guess is that that target level of foreshadowing is that somebody who reads the books, straight through, once, doesn't guess what's going on but does have an "ohh, NOW I see all the hints leading up to this" reaction once they know the answer. Unfortunately, if you do something that's so unexpected that it can't be guessed by someone poring over all the books looking for clues, that means you can't do any good foreshadowing. Because you DO need that moment of "Ohh, now that I know this secret, I can see all the hints leading up to it." Otherwise it just feels random. It's probably also pretty personalized - others might have other bits. I guessed that Radiant was the killer from the moment Shallan had that conversation with the Unseen Court, and so I didn't think Ishnah, Vatah, or Beryl, or Pattern were ever the spy... ...but I never caught the bits of foreshadowing about Shallan's deadeye until it was actually revealed.

Book 5 antagonist is definitely Toadium. I think books 6-10 will have a new antagonist with a new arc. It'll be a reset, a new conflict, not just a continuation of the current one. If the old conflicts continued, we'd have to spend a lot of time on the current protagonists - what they're doing in the back five books, what they feel about their enemies, etc etc. But a new conflict lets our current crew retire (the ones that survive) and be background, while new characters take the lead.

I don't get this one. Do we have reason to believe Lift is Szeth's daughter or niece? Or is there some other Neturo you have in mind besides szeth's father?

Yes, they said the metal in the dagger was Raysium (Odium's god-metal).

We don't know. So far the only other person with Plate we've seen on-screen, using it, is Jasnah, and she was deliberately pretending to be just a normal Shardbearer. I'd guess it's a Windrunner thing? Protecting others with their plate seems very windrunner-y.

That makes a lot of sense. After all, a regular Truthwatcher would have the surge of Illumination, like Lightweavers. For Corrupted/Enlightened truthwatchers, they've got some Odium-ized version of Illumination, seeing the future. So I think any similarities between Void-Illumination and Illumination are probably deliberate.

So, I've got this (maybe) crazy theory that all of the things we've been sold at the end of book 4 as the finish line are actually red herrings. The Contest of Champions is going to happen... but TOdium is going to weasel out of it with a draw (since both a win and a loss are an end to the war, and neither of them are on terms that are that bad for the humans - as Dalinar remarks at the end of RoW!). In the first four books, the win condition was "Make Odium believe he can lose; then he'll agree to a contest of champions to limit his losses." The Radiants got there. In book 4, they convinced ROdium that he could lose, and he agreed to pretty favorable terms to limit his losses. ...but then ROdium went and got himself killed. And now TOdium doesn't want to play to "limit his losses" - he wants to win. So the Radiants are going to actually have to push for the whole victory instead of getting the easier way out with a Champion.

I think I'm in a kind of weird space on that (but maybe others are in the same place). The worldbuilding and secrets are the most interesting things to think about, so when I'm theorizing and thinking about things, that's what always comes to mind. But looking back at what actually gave me the most enjoyment when reading, it's always the character growth moments. So it's both. They activate different parts of my reading-brain.

Because Valor is usually associated with battle. From dictionary.com: "Valor: boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle; heroic courage; bravery." You don't get a medal for valor without putting yourself in some danger deliberately. ...I mean, I agree with your point that we're all reading far too much in to the one-word names of the Shards. But given how little there is to work off of, it makes sense why people are gravitating towards treating Valor as more aggressive.

So, we've always known in the past that a bunch of important events happened close to each other in time - the Radiants leaving Urithiru, the False Desolation and the trapping of Ba-Ado-Mishram, the Recreance, Honor's death. Close in time, but not the same time. I think in Rhythm of War, we learn a bunch of tidbits of information that may tie into a unified theory for how these all fit together. My genesis for this theory is the discrepancy between the Tones of Roshar as they exist now and as the Sibling remembers them. Navani and the Sibling have a conversation about this in chapter 65: Navani's idea makes sense given the history. Odium and Cultivation were here first. They made the Sibling together. At the time, there were only Two true tones of Roshar. Odium has continually resisted Investing himself into Roshar, so did not have a Tone for a long time; eventually, he had Invested enough that he got one. In fact, that was probably the moment that the Sibling lost some abilities - when they no longer had access to all of Roshar's tones. But this all gave rise to a horrible cascade of events. So here my final proposed timeline. 1. Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar first. Their Tones were the True Tones of Roshar. They made the Sibling, were part of the ecosystem as the highstorm cycle, etc. The fight against Odium starts and keeps going. 2. Sometime before the False Desolation, Odium and Honor have one last clash. (I think we don't have info on this, yet. Maybe it was Odium trying to do something to force Taln to break?) In this, Odium wounds Honor, but at the cost of Investing himself more heavily in Roshar than he wants. 3. ...this Connects him more heavily to Roshar, making his Tone one of the True Tones of Roshar, giving Ba-Ado-Mishram he ability to power up Singers with his Light, and making the Sibling lose some of their powers (since they're missing one of the three tones of Roshar and don't know it.). 3. The False Desolation happens. At its conclusion, Melishi traps Ba-Ado-Mishram. 4. ...but in doing so, it disrupts *everyone's* connection to the third tone of Roshar - Spren and Singer alike. 5. In this, the humans firsthand have a look at just how much damage radiant powers can cause. It's no longer theoretical, it's not just Honor raving about how they destroyed Ashyn a long time ago - they can SEE what their powers can accidentally do. (Maybe they see themselves as being one or two gemstones away from destroying all spren or even all life on Roshar, or something like that, who knows what they conclude about what would happen if the Stormfather or Nightwatcher was similarly trapped.) 6. The Radiants decide that the only way out is to remove their powers from the equation entirely. The Recreance happens; perhaps the Skybreakers are left behind to ensure that no radiant orders reform, maybe their surges are deemed safe? 7. ...except the Recreance is even worse than they imagined. They knew breaking their bonds would hurt their spren; they did not realize that since the Spren's connection with Roshar was ALSO broken, that they would get deadeyed instead of eventually, after pain, reforming in the Cognitive. 8. And it gets worse. Honor, already being wounded, was dealt the killing blow by all radiant bonds being broken at the same time. 9. Since before this, making bonds was safe, most spren that didn't mind bonding had already done so; none of the spren who were "left behind" were the kind to study realmatic theory and understand exactly what just happened, given the huge casualties they'd just had. And so Spren society, decimated as it was, did not retain the knowledge of why the Recreance went wrong. Humans, having lost touch with their spren, had no idea what horrors they'd done. And so it was lost to time - leaving everyone, spren and human, to make up their own stories of what happened and why.

Well, I'm going to guess that the fifth oath is something Kaladin is going to swear in the next book. The fourth oath was pretty straightforwardly what he'd been struggling against for most of the last two books, so it's not a surprise, but how tough it's been for him means that we probably have missed the foreshadowing of the fifth oath. I think we HAD to have some foreshadowing of the fifth oath, because giving Kaladin a totally new thing to struggle against would feel weird if we haven't had inkings of it before. It might be something to do with his new work helping people with their mental health. That got just a few chapters in this book - enough to show that it was important, but not enough to say that that storyline is complete. Hmm. think the fifth oath is going to be something about how you have to protect the whole person - mind, body, and spirit. Most of the protecting that Kaladin has done personally has been about preventing people from being stabbed - understandable, because they're in a war. But more abstract things like protecting a person's independence, protecting their spirit, are still there. Maybe it'll build on the fourth oath. The fourth oath was only about acceptance, knowing that a Windrunner can't protect everyone. But the fifth might be when he recognizes that some things are more important to protect against than bodily harm. I still think there's more realizations to be had there. Yeah, Kaladin is now accepting that sometimes, he'll fail and not protect someone. But there's a step further - times when Kaladin could step in and protect someone from physical damage, but shouldn't, because protecting that person's autonomy or integrity or honor or something else is also important.