Diomedes

Yeah, he was honest, brutally and bluntly so, thereby humiliating him in front of Amaram and whoever else stood there. They don`t have a choice weather they fight, but on how well they fight. Humiliating your loyal subordinats is just bad leadership and does not encourage them to fight as well as they could. It is therefore odd coming from "master manipulator" Odium. He could have said something like: "Oh dear Turash, I value your Passion, but Humans like Amaram are just as important to our victory as Singers. And you know what happens, if we do not win, right?" Sure he needs to manipulate them. But we don`t (?) see any direct contact between Odium and any contemporary Singer besides Venli. Therefore Venli is our best guess on how he would personally treat the average Singer. Maybe not as dismissive, but still. I stand by it. Singers are his tools, Humans his toys. Edit: I also don`t understand why he wouldn`t just show himself to the singers in Alethkar. That would be really helpful for his propaganda efforts saying: "You all see me! I am GOD! Do you feel my power? Our enemies don`t stand a chance against ME!" He clearly does not have the same kind of reservation for Humans, as is shown during the battle of Thaylen, where he himself motivates the army of Sadeas.

I found a little quote that seems to confirm this theory: That is an observation by the Herald Ash, who has a lot more first-hand information on Odium and ancient stuff, because she has been around for millenia since the Oathpact. "Corrupted" could mean that Odium took the original magic voidbinding system and hacked/corrupted it to his own ends.

He would be,if his own Passions would not inhibit his own judgement. How he drove Venli away from his cause, was really stupid. And he is in general pretty ungrateful to his loyal Parshmen. That is not good leadership! Take Turash, he humiliated and threatened him for voicing dissent, while Amaram got away with it. That`s what he says to Turash to humiliate him, He does not do the same to Amaram. I will not persuade you all with this, I know. Currently the textual evidence is not definitive enough to really prove it. It leaves it as a possible option. It just makes too much sense in the grander scheme of things as I outlined above. Odium needs Humans on a large scale to fight for him, that won`t work if he keeps the Singers in his coalition. Besides, Humans are the original voidbringers. Why would Odium not have a soft spot for them? (You would say: Well, because he is Odium and all he does is hating and manipulating people; And I would answer: Well, we don`t know enough about Odium to say that he only hates people)

One would hope that as many Singers follow Venli as possible. It`s Odium`s version of being nice . The same as he is nice to Dalinar and not to the Singers. Well, he is a master foreseer, who can foresee millenia into the future. I looked that scene up. He is unnecessarily rude to the Singer Turash, an "old friend" who followed him for millenia by threatening and telling him, that he is just a tool: (According to my theory he is totally lying here, he has a clear sweet spot for Humans.) Then he is nice to Amaram, the little soldier boy, who just joined his ranks: When A. voices disgust, O. does not simply command subserviance or threatens him, but he sucessfully persuades A. to do it willingly, by promising to let him kill Dalinar someday. Assuming he does not let Dalinar kill him first. So this fatherly love only goes so far. However, there is a magnificent contrast in how O. treats Turash the Singer and Amaram the Human. Both voice dissent, Tushar is threatened and reminded how worthless he is, Amaram is persuaded.

Yes he was. the entire tone of O. is like between a father, who cannot believe his son made his first tiny baby-steps. It`s..well patronising yet he could not manipulate Venlli to stay in line.

Why is he so unforgiving to Venli though: Why isn`t he telling the same sweet lies to Venli? He is systematically nice/paternal to humans and unforgiving to Singers. Moash gets away with soooo much stuff and he is even promoted. He does not need to be nice to Taravangian to bring him to his side. He could have easily threatened him, Yet, he does not do it. This cannot be a coincidence. Edit: We don`t actually see an interaction between an old Singer and Odium, do we? Edit: 2 Yes we do: Turash and Odium, see my post below.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. -Nietzsche Aphorism Part 1 Exterminating Parshmen In Words of Radiance the first assumption of Bridge Four after they eavesdrop on a conversation of Shallan warning Adolin of the Singers is to assume she wants to exterminate them all. In OB Jasnah makes this offhand comment: It`s in the sake of an argument, I know, but the extermination of all Singers is actually thinkable. If Parshmen genocide is thinkable for our heroes, then it might be more than thinkable for more shady people among the leaders of the Alethi like Ialai Sadeas. And the real war has not even started yet. Throughout OB the Parshmen are referred to as “monsters”. What do you do with monsters? You slay them. Additionally: the war against the Parshendi was ended by killing almost all Parshendi, why should the same trick not work on a grander scale? Part 2 Rebellious Parshmen The uprising of the Parshmen resembles a slave or peasant uprising. Slaves shove off their masters shackles and free themselves. You know how many slave/ peasant uprisings have been successful in western ancient and medieval history? Right, not a single one. They seized a lot of territory but were ultimately crushed, all of them. There are reasons for this. Slaves don`t have any fighting experience, masters have professional armies, that fought their entire lives. We see this at the battle of Thaylen the Sadeas armies would have totally crushed the Singer-army, even with support from the Fused and the beasts. And the Fused aren´t they these tactical geniuses? Yes they are, but there are only a few hundred of them and a lot of them have gone insane. Essentially the Singers are normal people like you and me trying to fight a professional boxer. Even if we had the best coach and the best strategy ever (the Fused/ Voidspren), we could never beat the professional boxer. Even if we trained every hour of every day for a year- we just could not. But the Parshmen have the numbers, don`t they? If you compare current army sizes, yes. But, ultimately, there are way more Humans on Roshar and in Alethkar than Singers. All these Humans in Alethkhar need Parshmen guardians to look after them. So they cannot bring their full army force to battle because they need to garrison all those towns and cities in Alethkar. Remember the mantra Shardbearers don`t hold any territory? Well the same goes for the Fused. Plus the Alethi have a giant pool of possible recruits in Jah Keved. So no, the Singers don´t have the numbers. Part 3 A war in Alethkar What does this mean? Well Odium simply needs Humans to change sides on a massive scale to win the war. He is deadly sure that he will win: Like, there is no possible way he could not. Therefore, he has to have a sure plan on how to turn most of the military establishment to his side. How will he do it? By persuading them that it is necessary, just and feels satisfying to exterminate all Parshmen they find. I think Dalinar`s flashback chapters gave us a hint at what the current Alethi ethics of war are like. It will be worse, if the enemy happens to be not even human/ is a “monster”. Plus, what will they see, if they enter Alethkar? Abused Humans. This will surely persuade them that a war of extermination is not only necessary, but emotionally justified. I imagine the debate on the conduct of the war will open a rift between House Kholin, Aladar, Sebarial and the others. Dalinar will urge upon a honorable conduct of war. The other Houses will see this first as a weak and soft hand approach, then as a betrayal. After a few decisive battles for the Alethi at the beginning of the war, the Fused will opt for a guerilla war strategy. By that time the other Houses will desert from House Kholin and follow a new leader, perhaps Ialai Sadeas. They will begin the extermination of all Parshmen and fight the Kholins. By that time they will be in Odium`s hands. The Vorin church will actively support them. Aren`t the Parshmen literally the Voidbringers? Aren`t they supposed to kill them according to their religion? Aren´t Queen Jasnah and Dalinar heretics? Aren`t the Knights Radiant traitors? What about that really powerful god that revealed himself and who says he loves us? He must be the Almighty right? This is how the Alethi as a nation will become the monsters they fought. Part 4 Odium`s children Odium regards Humans as his children: The same attitude goes for the dialogue with Taravangian. Odium does not actually want to kill all Humans, he wants to bring them into his fatherly arms. The Singers are treated pretty harshly by Odium and the Voidspren in OB, which is in stark contrast to how he treats Dalinar and Taravangian. Odium wants his beloved children to fight for him, just like it had been in ancient times, before Honor and the spren intervened. The Singers are just a tool to get his children to his side and always have been. Odium will throw them away, once they will have outlived their usefulness. (I posted an earlier version of this a few months ago, I hope you forgive me for opening a new thread)

I don`t think Odium wants to destroy Roshar or kill all Humans. Why? Take this quote: So it seems quite clear to me that Odium does not actually hate Humans or Roshar. He thinks they are his children and he loves them as a father would. He does not want to destroy Humans, but to bring them back into his fatherly hands just as they once were. This is btw why I think Odium regards himself as Passion, because he actually loves Humans.

I am not pushing anything as fact here. You can hold any opinion you like. But don`t disregard the tons of thoughtful discussion as stupid "Tin Foil Hat territory lol" , without even referencing it. And another thing. Don`t go straight ad hominem, without having good arguments. That quickly poisens debate. Just my opinion.

I very much disagree. It seems like the modern Knights Radiant did not dissolve, even though the secret is out. Besides these reasons seem unconvincing. There is soooo much more to the story. And arguing with evidence is hardly Tin Foil Hat territory, which is what we are doing. Edit: If you are new to this: My favorite theory is that the Orders realized that the oaths are all about human perception. Humans are flawed and entangeld in messy stuff. Therefore the oaths itselves cannot be upheld: They need to be broken.

Well then, enlighten me, what is your theory why they killed their beloved friends? What is the reason for Oathbreaking, if not jealousy/feeling of betrayal according to your theory? Keep in mind that there is no such thing as "the" spren. There are thousands of individual spren, who often hate each other. Why would the Radiants kill their friends, just because, some other spren bonded with Singers?

Now we are down to language and how you call things. I agree with you that an Unmade could be bonded, but would that bond be described as Nahel-bond? Argent (paraphrased) Is the bond between a seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167-steelheart-chicago-signing/#e3035 So it is similar, but not the same. A bond between Seon and human is not called a Nahel bond, right? A bond with an Unmade, invested with Odium would also be called differently. We do agree, that the Unmade are invested with Odium`s investiture, do we? Edit: @ScavellTane"If that was the case they would not have 'killed' their bondmate regardless, yet they did. They killed the spren who bonded the Singers and then went to Feverstone Keep. At least the Windrunners and Stonewards did." Yes they killed their spren, but not without a good reason. Simple jealousy is not a reason why you would kill thousands of beloved sentient beeings. There is a good theory on, that the spren were in on the Recreance stuff.

Dalinar and Stormfather provide stormlight not voidlight. Big difference. Stormlight is Honor`s inverstiture, voidlight Odium`s. No, the Nahel bond is made of Honor`s investiture, BAM is not of Honor! Your basic theory that there could be some analogy of the Bondsmiths on Odium`s side is very much possible. And I like the idea. The void-surges are a twisted way of the normal surges, why should there not be a twisted version of a Bondsmith? But your evidence does not support it. This is not possible. The Radiants loved their spren as individuals. They would not kill them because they were jealous that other spren bonded with some Singers.

So this pseudo- Bondsmith is still around somewhere, or was he killed during the battle at Narak, without the Alethi noticing that they had killed a pseudo-Bondsmith? All I am saying is, that there is next to no evidence for your theory and it is, therfore, highly speculative. I thought the loss of Forms reduced the Singers to this weird kind of Dullform, that we see most Singers inhabiting during most of WoK and WoR. It is impossible to keep on fighting in this state.

This is really speculative, but possible. So you say a certain Listener bonded BAM, before the battle at the end of WoR, thus giving the Listeners acess to all those weird forms? We don`t have any evidence for that. Were is that Listener now? The timeline does not line up with that one, though, as I said. I give you the full quote This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.”— Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20 The Oathbreaking of Windrunners and Stonewards at Feverstone Keep happened, before the war was over and BAM was imprisoned, when "fighting was intense". Therefore, the imprisonement of BAM cannot cause Feverstone Keep. It did, however, very likely cause the eventual Oathbreaking of the other orders.

But BAM is an Unmade that is quite loyal to Odium, right? The Listeners left Team Parsh/BAM by severing their connection, somehow unnoticed. Presumably this was around the time BAM was imprisoned that they were not pursued by BAM and other Singers. I wrote a theory on this thread why the Recreance happened, when it happened at Feverstone Keep. Remember the Parsh fought against Humans after the last Desolation in the "false Desolation", but before the Recreance and the imprisonment of BAM. Because there were still Radiants around to imprison BAM. ´The Stonewards and Windrunners broke their Oath at Feverstone Keep, when "fighting was intense" hence the feeling of betrayal attributed to the Recreance. However, that means Feverstone Keep happened before Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned and the Singers were stripped off their forms, because fighting was still very much going on. At least the Bondsmiths were still fighting after Feverstone Keep. Probably there were quite a few orders still fighting. This might have been said already elsewhere but I could not find it. How could the Singers even wage war in the false Desolation against Humans and Radiants without the Fused to guide them? I think they engaged in a nasty guerilla warfare using, perhaps, even terroristic methods. Thing is, this type of asymmetrical warfare quickly persuades the more powerful side that horrible means are necessary; Meaning: Killing noncombatants to weaken, to terrify the enemy or just because you hate those Parsh sooo much. I imagine a large, genocidal massacre had happened before Feverstone Keep, Stonewards and Windrunners had helped, without knowing it, to commit it. This triggered the Oathbreaking of the two orders. The other orders carried on, until something else happened. However, they succeded in binding Bo-Ado-Mishram.´ To clarify things here is the timeline according to my theory: 1. Last Desolation, 2. False Desolation (Parsh vs Humans and Radiants without Fused and Odium) 3. Listeners slip off unnoticed 4. Genocidal massacre with unknowing help of Windrunners and Stonewards 5. Stonewards and Windrunners end their orders at Feverstone Keep 6. BAM is imprisoned by a Bondsmith 7. Somehow the seven other orders call it a day

I honestly don`t know about that. Kaladin´s loyalty is bound to a condition: That he agrees with the way things are handeld, especially the ways the parshmen are treated. Imagine this scenario: Queen Jasnah orders a certain town full of parshmen to be executed, because they cannot be trusted and besides everyone is starving already. Don`t say this is a thing Jasnah would not do. She seriously considered full on parshmen genocide to combat the problem with the Fused. What would human-spren-of-Honor-Kaladin do then? I think he might revolt, refuse to follow orders and storm off. I don´t think he would make himself king. This is not Kaladin`s style. His power-base and claim to the throne is also way to weak. Besides, he has always had problems with authority. The original theory might have more merit than it seems. I definitly see a lot of tension between a Queen Jasnah and Captain Kaladin, leader of an independent, half magical fighting force, that owes loyalty not to the Queen but to Kaladin himself. Edit: @I'mAStickFanClub 5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state. Bridge Four would be the equivalent of the roman pretorian guard, and Kaladin to the pretorian prefect, who were famous for killing lots of emperors and making their own emperors, who suited their purpose.

Oh boy, I know this book was a huge disappointment for you. But describing Sanderson`s book as just some YA book... well you are provoking some strong reactions posting this in a forum of fans who have devoted lots and lots of their time and energy to analyze these books. I suppose you have read other Sanderson novels? I also suppose you quite liked them, otherwise you would not be as disappointed as you are. How would it possible that a writer who evolved consistently and steadily in his skill as a writer from Elantris to Words of Radiance writes such an appalingly structured book? A book that makes such obvious structural mistakes that it is almost laughable. The neglect of Amaram and his soldiers is a good example of one of many obvious structural mistakes. He made these decisions for a reason. Not because he is "just a bad author". I tried to explain the reason to you. It is possible even for a good author to have a one-off bad book. However, there are systematically to many of these oddities to say Brandon just made a mistake here and there, which would make this a one-off bad book; Way to many indeed. Currently, I am rereading Oathbringer with that in mind what Sanderson wants to show in this book. I am enjoying the book far more than I did on the first reread. I am not saying Brandon is a genius, he is not. Or that he does not make mistakes, he does. But saying there is no depth in this book like in some YA books.... that is just not true.

No, the murder of Sadeas was a huge deal for the plot. It made 10.000 soldiers of House Sadeas betray the Alethi cause. It was the entire reason for tension in the finale in Thaylen. Not focusing on such a huge plotpoint is weird. (But not necessarily bad) As I said there are too many oddities in that book to make this a coincidence. That is definitly going to happen.

It`s not like there was not a thematic overlap between the arcs, there certainly was. However, there were no big expectations/ promises for the last few hundred pages and the characters lacked agency for the first 90% of the book. I strongly suggested this is not by accident, Brandon purposefully set it up this way to show Odium`s influence. But it also makes for a less compelling story for readers, who are used to big promises and an empowering message of characters making choices, not just drifting around.

This was kind of explained in the dialogue between Kaladin and Amaram in Thaylen. The only thing I accuse the book of, is it`s cheezy writing sometimes. That dialogue was certainly cheezy. I mean who talks whilst fighting? You don`t have time, things happen to fast. A little Amaram scene could have been introduced nonetheless. He is so instrumental to the developement of Kaladin. I am of the opinion we will see him again as some kind of human Fused.

I think we disagree on what constitutes a good novel. For you it is that it`s entertaining and could stand on its own. For me it´s that it`s interesting and explores themes we have not seen before. Yeah, that`s the reason people seem to like it not as much: Brandon`s prose is not as good as to make it work really well. I did like Oathbringer, not as much as I did WoR, but still... I am going to reread OB having in mind what Brandon wants to get at. I think it is going to be way more enjoyable. My points were not really objections, but rather explanations why people were "underwhelmed" and of the weirdness of OB; which is not a inherently a bad thing!

Brandon regards OB as one of his best books. OB´s "weaknesses" are structural ones. Brandon is a bit famous for meticilously laying down the framework in his books. Planing everything ahead, so much so that, sometimes, his books seem to hurry along to fit into his scheme. It would be reaally weird, if one of his big, big strenghts turned over night into his biggest weaknes as a writer. No, these "faults" are intentional. I am not saying btw. that the ending (and the book) was bad, it was merely .... weird and unusual. Good points! Again these are structural weaknesses, not one of his writing style. The feeling of getting swept away by the plot, of confusion and helplessness are purpousfully created by Brandon.

There have been a couple of threads of readers being disappointed by OB. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/68936-ob-whats-up-with-oathbringer/ http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/66361-ob-underwhelming/ Or a review on goodreads https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/891581512 These reviews hit on a point: Oathbringer is a really weird book. It ignores basic advice Brandon himself gives to young readers in his lectures on YouTube. 1. Lack of Expectations/ Promises (I wrote a different version of this somewhere else) In OB no grand expectation is set or promise made for the last few hundred pages or so. In WoK we had Dalinar vs Sadeas and the situation of Bridge Four and indeed these issues were met by the end of WoK. In WoR an even greater expectation was resolved that the war against the Parshendi would end which we had expected since the beginning of WoK. OB is different. The big villain is Odium but we also know that he is not going to be defeated in this book. There is no plan how to challange him, no ring to throw into Mt. Doom, no Death Star to destroy, no Horcruxes to kill, you get the point. All plotlines hang in a void without some big expectation to tie them all together. Instead the characters stumble along for the last act to arrive. I mean they literally stumble through the Perpendicularity into Thaylen! We could not have expected the books resolution there. Expectations we could reasonable have after WoR, were not met. Sadeas death had only minor consequences. His death is kind of swept under the rug for the entire book; The Ghostblood/Shallan/Jasnah issue, again not really addressed. And then there is the triangle of doom…I know this is controversial, but I expected clarity by the end of this book. We did not get a scene of Shallan having a conversation with Kaladin laying out why and that she really is not into him. Instead there was hardly any dialogue between Kaladin and Shallan and, well, an endless teasing game. Anyways, let`s not delve into that too much. Things turn toxic very fast. 2. Lack of agency Sah the freed Singer tells Kaladin: This line applies to most characters in OB. Elokhar does, what he thinks society demands of a “good” king. Kaladin cannot save him, because he is frozen on the spot. He only gets more frustrated by the question of whom he should protect. Shallan plunges deeper and deeper into her madness. Moash`s destiny is determined by his past choices. Dalinar is unable to face his former self. Adolin cannot tell anybody he killed Sadeas. Szeth is the exception here. He used to be swept away by circumstances, but he is making his own choices in this book. Only by the end of OB do some (mostly Dalinar) regain a little bit of agency. For the most part, however, they are just leafs in the wind being blown by the plot hither and tither. This is not good storytelling. I have too much confidence in Brandon as a writer to think this is merely a coincidence. Especially since he advises young writers in his lectures to set promises and to construct a plot with characters having agency. Instead I believe he tried to square the circle by writing Oathbringer: Laying down a compelling narrative without having promises or letting the characters make meaningful choices. And he kind of succeeded, didn`t he? Oathbringer is a good book, despite having these massive structural faults. Why did he do it? 1. Brandon cannot escalate every book by having bigger and bigger promises: (sequels always have to be bigger, as the Ardent jokingly said). OB is a purposeful step down to enable future plots to feel genuine and not like the next inevitable step on the ladder towards our final villain Odium. 2. It shows Odium`s almost absolute control of everyone. Odium`s influence is often described as letting go of any responsibility, to just go where momentum and your passions carry you. Odium has good reasons to believe there is no possible way for him to lose. This should be reflected in the narrative. Odium reigns. (Especially in Oathbringer)

The theory on ancient human Fused is a bit too speculative, but could be very well true. That means they are still around somewhere on Braize since they are immortal, right? We will certainly see human Fused in the next few books. A lot of Fused are insane, as you said. Odium needs new experienced Fighters and Humans alone have any fighting experience at all. Amaram would check all the boxes. He is an exellent General, loyal to Odium and hates the Kholin family ad thereby the Radiants. I think it is fair to say that we will see him again.