Diomedes

Sure. I think he wants to obtain Honors Investiture by binding the Knights Radiant to his will. The Skybreakers are already on his side. The oaths are not really anti-Odium, they are open to interpretation as Kaladin found out in OB. One interpretation could be honoring Odium. The Windrunners could be the exception. Syl is pretty horrified by Odium.

Odium is not exactly anti-Human. He uses them when they submit to them (Amaram, the Iriali, King T. etc.). O. endgame is to rule all of Roshar and to kill anybody who resists of course. I had a theory once that Odium is going to turn on the Singers, but I`am not so sure anymore. Dalinar challenged Odium to a duell of champions at the end of OB. He framed it as Humans vs Odium. The only thing Odium needs to do is bring a majority of Humans over to his side and he has won by default without a duell to take place.

Adolin murdering Sadeas is super relatable. We as readers are meant to hate Sadeas. That is how he is portrayed, not having really any kinds of redeeming qualities. Adolin gives into his rage and does something really stupid and risky in the heat of the moment, "consequences be damned". However, anything being relatable does not mean it should be done. Like I said giving into momentary impulses is pretty much the defintion of following the path of Odium. Dalinar`s plan is to build a unified Alethkar. That means persuading as many Houses as possible to join their side. Gavilar did this somewhat sucessfully showing that it indeed can be done. Challenging Sadeas to a duell serves that purpose, murdering him in rage does not. Adolin is not exactly selfless. He has major relationship problems. It cannot always have been his girlfriends fault, that so many broke up with him, could it? He treats Kaladin with contempt in WoR and has no problem killing swaths of Parshmen, very much unlike Kaladin. Venli received her redemption towards being a Radiant in OB. Moash was one of Kal`s closest friends in WoK. We have not really seen Amaram`s or Aesuadan`s perspective from the beginning, only where they ended up. Adolin is portrayed to seem likable, which is not the same as him being selfless. He can be violent, impulsive and self-centered. This does not mean he will definitly go over to Odium. It means he has a lot of work to do to become the man he seems to be. Or his arc in the next book will show him indulging in his impulsive side and him ending up on Odium`s side.

Eh. There are two ways you could justify murdering Sadeas the way Adolin did. a) He`s motivated by saving his family and Alethkar. b ) What he did actually served the greater good. Both are not true. a) Adolin is motivated by rage. Adolin later rationalizes his actions as serving the greater good and Shallan supports him in that view. However, it could not be clearer from the way the scene is written that he is motivated by base impulses. That is pretty Odium-esque. b ) He may have killed the Highlord, but House Sadeas is still around. Amaram and Ialai Sadeas are both capable leaders experienced in politics and the military. Maybe they are an even better team than Sadeas and Ialai ever were. Adolin comments on this while being once again enraged. Adolin made House Sadeas angry without seriously inhibiting their potential to do harm. That made the situation hardly any better. As you said this caused House Sadeas to go over to Odium. Adolin imperiled the fate of Roshar, luckily it did not play out that way in Thaylen. Anyways, these kinds of considerations were not in Adolin`s mind when he murdered Sadeas. How could they? He did not have time to seriously think about the consequences of his actions. He just wanted to satisfy his anger. There are lots of questions. If you ask me, Adolin is in a prime position to go over to Odium.

You said "Adolin did nothing wrong". That is an ethical statement that has nothing to do with alethi legal systems and everything with your moral evaluation. Or you do it like Gavilar and play the game of politics. That involves lying.

That is a discussion worthy of its own thread. Let me just say: Lying once is immoral but murdering somebody is not? Either the ends justify the means or they don`t. Kadash was comparing Dalinar to Jasnah, and Dalinar agreed. So yes he is a bit like Jasnah. He does not believe in god "without question" he wants proof. As I noted previously I don`t see any evidence that the church does actually believe that just sitting and waiting for the herald does solve all problems. We are indeed going in circles here. This is not how politics work. You just murder your enemies and everything will be fine. Sadeas was operating on a power base, that was still around after he had been murdered. Other guys like Amaram and Ialai merely took his place. If they had been murdered others would step up. You don`t win until you deprieve the base of its power. Besides every kind of crime can be justified with "another one would have done it." I think this line of thinking is deeply problematic. To put it differently what is the worst thing Sadeas could have done? a) bring his House under the control of Odium. Exactly that did happen. b.) bring all non Kholin loyalist Houses under the control of Odium. This is about to happen. @Steel Inqusitive"I'm confused. Are the ardents warriors? I thought they were priests/scholars. As such, what exactly are you thinking they are going to do?" The Ardents are a powerful group in Alethkar. Not every kind of power is military power. This is why military coup d`etats are not always succesful. They lack the legitimacy bestowed upon them by traditional, legal or charismatic forces. The ardents are a hugly important source for legitimacy of power. If Dalinar`s rule lacks legitimacy nobody is going to follow his orders. They can also directly influence people to act against Dalinar. I think the ardents played a huge role in turning Amaram. As I have noted peviously.

Sadeas was assassinated by Adolin, who could not contain his rage. Not because the rules of the game changed. Sadeas miscalculated what kind of man Adolin was and died because of it. He is openly questioning the existance of the Almighty, like Jasnah : I does not need to go about this the way he does. He could say: I know deep in my heart the Almighty exists but the story that we have been telling ourselves is proably not true. I know we as readers are cheering for Dalinar because Jasnah is cool and now Dalinar is like Jasnah. But you can`t declare war on the Vorin church during the Apocalypse. He can`t afford that fight right now.

Not if they expect to be mislead in this regard. Saying you believe in God, while actually you probably don`t, is the unspoken rule of Alethi high society. Saying outright you deny the existance of god is a declaration of war to the Vorin church. That could have been avoided by saying you still believe in the Almighty, he just changed. That is what he meant by "dying". If you want to win a game you have to play by its rules.

Why? Is lying always a bad thing? I think the world is more complicated than that. Sometimes compromises have to be made. Are parents immoral for telling their children that Santa At the end of WoK Dalinar resolves to treat the Alethi like children, and children don`t always deserve the full brutal truth.

No they were not asking him to accept the Almighty as all-powerful etc., they are not expecting for somebody to save them. I`d like you to read chapter 16 of OB from Kadash`s perspective. He is in Dalinar`s eyes and Dalinar manages to horrify even him. Kadash does not ask him to accept all of Vorin teachings or that the Almighty is going to come and save everybody. The book never says that the ardents believe that! Kadash merely asks The only thing Dalinar needs to do is saying that he does not believe in the doctrin of omnipotence he does not believe that the Almighty is going to save everyone, but he does believe in his existance. This is btw. true, since shards like spren technically never die, they just transition between different planes of existance. The book never states that the ardents would be that foolhardy. They would say: Oh look a desolation is here. Apperantly the Almighty does not deem us worthy of defending. Let us rally around the Knights Radiant, who can. Maybe we will be worthy again in the future. Dalinar`s attempts have been barely sucessfull, as I tried to show in this thread partly because the ardents are opposing him and his cause. The two are linked. We do not yet know of their machinations against his cause, but I have no doubts that they are there. Maybe they played a crucial role in convincing Amaram to betray Dalinar. This happens off screen, but it would be very likely that the religious zealot Amaram, who wants to restore the power of the Vorin church to its full glory, would listen to the ardents. Well, by claiming he merely changed, which is somewhat true. A skilled politician makes sure he persuades people to his side, not give them good reasons to become his bitter enemies. How would such a thing come out? I guess that many Highprinces do not actually believe in the Almighty. They just claim they are that everybody is happy. This is the solemn arrangment of Alethi high society. You give the ardents what they want and they let you do whatever you want. Dalinar broke that arrangement, because he can`t bring himself to tell a single lie. This hinges on the assumption that Odium`s chances of winning decreace drastically in the next book. I don`t see that happening. He might change sides in later books. In the next book he is Odium`s servant. This is all that matters for my prediction.

aehm, why are you so confident in an unshakable will for Honor in Adolin? This is bit of an off topic discussion. So maybe we should revert to a new thread? If Shallan changes for Odium, then Adolin can too. I think both is unlikely.

I do not even see a 10% chance arising in the next book. He made this deal because he knows how desperate their situation is.

That would mean breaking the pact. He would not do that until he is absolutly certain Odium will be defeated, if he joins Team Honor. I do not see any situation like that arise in the next book or maybe ever. For all practical intents and purposes he is fully on Odium`s side for now and will abide his command. @CalderisThis is probably true except for the last crucial part: We do not know who will win in the end. T. being the Diagram could have seen that this scenario is the best one he could hope for so he should persue it. That does not mean Odium losing, only him winning in the best way that the Diagram could see. Regardless he has sworn to serve Odium for now, which means he will betray Dalinar.

I disagree. He needs to understand the past in order to face the future. Could he not tell a single lie by saying he belives the Almighty is there somewhere beyond the stars? That he believes Honor transitioned to a different mode of existance? That this was what Honor meant by "dying". This is the only thing Kadash asks of him: Not to deny the existance of the Almighty. But that would be to much for Dalinar Kholin. Them being nipped in the bud is pushing them towards Odium. As is said in the thread: "He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies." Them being on Odium`s side is not helping anyone. Of course his skills as a politicians are relevant! Any politician with an inch of skill would not claim to be an outright Heretic. Publishing the visions is OK, saying everything in there is true is also OK. Supporting an interpretation that says the Almighty does not exist anymore is just foolhardy. He did not ask to "stay out of the way", he asked for the Diagram to be his servant: "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side?

Is it necessary to claim the Almighty is dead to refound the KR? I do not think so. As for Dalinar`s political skills, we had a thread here, that devolved into discussions on the Ardents, @Calderis "As the Heralds show, a human cannot be bound by an oath in the same manner as a Shard. I fully believe that Odium is bound to his word, just as he is bound to the trial of champions that forced him to make his pact with Taravangian. T is in no way bound similarly. That's the whole point of the Diagram in my opinion." He might not be bound as Odium is, but he is bound to a certain degree. "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side? I would like to see your explantion. I guess you wrote a theory somewhere. Could you send me a link? The Heralds are immortal and have a lot of Investment of Honor. They are hardly a good comparison to the deal with Odium. Besides a good chunk of their souls were destroyed by breaking the pact.

Yes, let`s not do that. However, Pattern seems to be pretty certain that Shallan will kill him. He should have good reasons. I assumed this would last only for a few hours as it was in Kaladin`s case. But it could also be true that Shallan changes to Team Odium. If that happens, then Adolin should change sides too. The whitespine uncaged and the mad girl against Team Honor.

No we havn`t. We see him doing lots of stupid stuff in OB: He antagonizes the ardents without a clear (political) reason. He pushes Amaram and Sadeas soldiers to Odium by thinking they will just follow his orders. The Princes would betray the Kholins by defecting to Ialai. Why Ialai? Because she is a capable sceamer and the only major survivor of House Sadeas. Why not Taravangian? He is king of Jah Keved already. Yet, he is of course a possible contender for the throne. "but I don't see Taravangian going Full Odium (never go Full Odium)" He is already full Odium because he is bound by oath to him. At least that is how I understood that scene near the end of OB. Think of it as a variation on the same theme. There would be major differences. the role of Odium , the Fused, the masses of Parshmen, the involvement of Jasnah. It would rhyme rather than repeat. Symmetries are a big thing in SA.

In this theory I predict that the arc of the next installment of SA will resemble the arc of the Way of Kings: Dalinar trusts people he should not have have trusted and makes blatant political mistakes he should not have made. This will result in him and House Kholin getting betrayed in the last act, just like in Way of Kings. This time the fate of Roshar will be at stake. A lot of people are upset with the Kholins. The Vorin church despises Dalinar and Queen Jasnah for being heretics. They have every reason for betraying him. The Kholins have secured the loyalty of only a few Houses: Aladar, Roion and Sebarial who fought with them at the end of WoR. But they are weakened by those fights as is House Kholin. The other princedoms are at full strength. We do not hear much about these guys in OB, because Dalinar shut them out of power. It used to be that all Highprinces discussed matters. In OB it is Dalinar who gives orders and they are supposed to follow them. We hear Dalinar keeps them in line by controlling the resources of Urithiru. I am certain they do not like to be shut out from power and being treated like “servants”. They will look for alternatives and find Ialai Sadeas and subsequently Odium. They will hail her as the new Queen and join Team Odium. Don`t forget the Ardents who will influence people to betray Dalinar. I argued here that a majority of Ardents constitute a cult of Odium already because they do not care about Honor: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/81893-a-cult-of-odium/. Most of Alethi high society does not care about Honor, which is the thing that got me thinking in this direction. They care about victory, the game, the thrill of battle. These values are closely tied to Odium. They value the destination not the journey. Taravangian should also play an important role. He is bound to Odium. He is in a perfect position to betray Dalinar in a key moment. I imagine a big battle at the end of the next book. Dalinar will be forced to rely on the soldiers of these guys. They will betray Dalinar by joining the other side and leave the fate of Roshar in the hands of Odium. But there is a catch! I imagine some Parshendi to play the part of Bridge Four in WoK and save Team Honor from total destruction. Venli might play the part of Kaladin persuading them to help Team Honor.

Shallan`s family might be an exception. I got the impression that mainstream Vorinism is pretty corrupted, regardless weather this concerns high society or not. Our closest view of rural Vorinism would be at Hearthstone. There is not even an Ardent in town as far as I can remember it. There are exceptions of course like Kadash (Dalinar`s ardent). But on the whole the situation seems to resemble that of the catholic church of the 15th century.

Fair point. Honor in itself is not "good" or ethical on its own. But it is about promises, oaths and the journey. Vornism, as it is today, is about none of these things. The power of the church is the only thing that matters. It does not care about oaths or the journey. Best Example might be Aesuadan`s Ardent in WoR. He justified everything that the Queen did by saying: well we like to do it, why stop doing it? That sounds very Odium-ish to me. Skybreakers might be Machiavellians, but they are a very specific type of Machiavellians that is hypersensitive about oaths and laws.

In this post I am going to argue that the Ardents are Odium worshippers. Hear me out, it makes more sense than you would believe. It is obvious that Vornism started out as a genuine belief in Honor a few thousand years ago. But nowadays? What kind of ethics would a genuine belief in Honor entail? It would mean journey before destination: it is more important how you fight/live then what you fight/live for. It is not even important that you win in a fight (or in life). Everything that matters is the journey. Now, what the Vorin church teaches is the exact opposite of what a genuine belief in Honor would look like. They don`t even have any set of ethics, actually. It is only important that you do your job as a soldier/ farmer etc. well. It is only important that you win. Subsequently, Alethi culture is all about the game, the victory, the Thrill. This set of ethics is, well, of Odium. I would argue, therefore, that it does not matter that they pay lip service to the Heralds and that their faith started out as worshipping Honor. The Ardents of our time are Odium worshippers. The best example are the “Sons of Honor”. They claim to want to restore Honor. Yet, they only want to possess the power associated with a god and restore the power of the Vorin church. They don`t care about Honor. It is not surprising that the only known son of Honor, Amaram, ends up on Odium`s side. The Ardents will soon join their actual god and lord, almighty Odium, led by Restares, who is probably someone high up in the hierarchy of the church.

Because he is not doing this. He is laying down ALL the facts. He is creating a "new" religion based on Odium. Let`s call it Odiumism. And the Ardents join this new religion, because the old religion seems to be almost the same as old Vorinsm. The Ethics are the same (big deal), the guy in charge of Humanity is called the Almighty, there was a Desolation. He is essentially selling a new spin on the same facts, by redifining all religious terms. Point is his story is as much true as is Vorinism`s story. Actually his story has more facts to it because there weren`t 99 desolations, Honor died and so on. Then being converted to Odiumism the Ardents will lie by telling themselves that they felt the presence of Odium all along for millenia. This is fine by Odium, because he is not telling a single lie. Edit: Now that I think about it, not even the Ardents are actually lying to themselves. During present times the Ardents are Odium worshippers. Because their ethics are all about Odium and not at all about Honor. Their religion morphed over the millenia from a Honor worshipping religion to an Odium worshipping one. Because their ethics changed. Edit 2: I think our misunderstandig is a result on what is defined as a "religion". For you guys the facts of it`s historical inception is key, which determine the understanding of religious doctrin in present times, For me it`s all about what a religion has become, and what their code of ethics is, what they want to say with their stories.

Now, it is you who is ignoring my points , I argued that the historical origin of a religion is different from the reason people belive in it. Vorinism, historically, was based on the worship of Honor. But it does not need to be in future. Odium can say that indeed a lot of the stuff you, the Ardents, thought was true is not. (The Heralds etc.). Point is the "new" religion based on Odium looks a lot like old Vorinism, with some alterations. This is important because it makes it easy for the Ardents to switch to the new religion. Well, then pretend christianity would be facts based. Then, tomorrow on the 1.11.2018 literal Jesus Christ comes down to Earth, telling the people that St. Paul twisted his message and some major parts of the doctrin are not true. Would christians believe in him? (Yes, they would, because he can break the laws of physics and stuff) And they would go on to pretend that they had known it all along that certain parts of their religions were wrong. Odium does not need to inhibit people`s ability to lie to themselves.

It does not matter, where the term "voidbringer" originated from. It only matters that Odium`s definition and the Ardent`s definition align. That definition would be for "Voidbringer": Everyone who fights against me the Almighty. Therefore Odium is not fooling the Ardents, since they agree on that definition. The same goes for the definition of "Desolation". Odium tells them: Only the first one was a proper desolation, a time when everyone else called you falsly "voidbringers". Because I, the Almighty, was leading you. If Ardents and Odium agree on that definition, the spirit is not broken. The same again for the term "the Almighty". Both parties agree that they mean Odium, thus nobody is deceived. Well what is the basis of any religion? Is it really historical events? If that would be the case later generations would not know, what religion is right or wrong. No, the basis for any religion is a feeling of revelation, the feeling of the presence of a god. That is how you are supposed to know that your religion is truthful. Odium would argue that their religion was indeed based historically on a guy called Honor and his heralds, who deceived people into revering him and twisted a lot of facts. But their religious feeling for a god leading humanity was justified. It just happened to be that the guy who initiated the religion was not actually god, he, Odium, was the cause for their religious feelings. If tomorrow a literal god would come down to planet earth in a ray of light, who can break the laws of physics, would tell christians (or muslims or jews): "I am your lord, your creator. It just happens that 60% of the stuff in the bible is not actually true. But 40% are totally true." Would Christians be dismayed or believe that they had been wrong all this time? No! they would celebrate, congratulate themselves and think that all this time there was actually a guy hearing their prayers, even if some of the stuff in the bible is not true; Same would go for the Ardents.

I am sorry, if I offended you somehow, that was not my intention. I am not saying you are simply wrong, I offer arguments to you. Arguments you can disagree with. I think we are talking past each other here. There was a terrible war called the first Desolation, in which Odium was leading the Humans against Voidbringers. That part is TRUE (probably), and is in line with the teachings of Vorinism. An Almighty God leading Humanity against a vicious foe. It matters that it is true because this way Odium is not lying, when he says he was leading them during the desolation. What is true and what the Ardents believe matches up. Thus, the spirit of the letter is not broken. Now Vorinism does not define who the Voidbringers are. It could be anyone, literally. It could be Dalinar, it could be the Parshendi, or some type of spren. What the Vorins believe to be voidbringers is not defined. Because there is no definition, everything could fit. The only definition existing is that they are the enemies of the Almighty. Vorins believe that the voidbringers do not have a god. So if a god shows up, it has to be the Almighty. What Odium would claim is that he truly is the Almighty, they have been praying to him all those millenia. They felt close to him when they prayed. Because this guy called Honor is dead, but your God the Almighty is alive. Thus, I, Odium have to be the Almighty. It does not matter, if some teachings appear to be wrong. Odium will tell them that the Heralds were actually agents of Honor, not of him, the "Almighty". That Humans betrayed him, that there was only one desolation, not 99. That Humans fought against him long wars that later generations called "desolations". These are all facts, just told from Odiums`s perspective. Odium is not lying. It is just a matter of definition, what is defined as Voidbringer, Desolation, God. This change of definitions will lead in a revolution in the Vorin beliefs. But the center of the beliefsystem is the existence of god and him leading humanity. Everything else is secondary. And that center is matching up with the reality of the first Desolation. I hope I explained myself better.