Diomedes

But Odium probably did lead humans during the first Desolation, the spirit is intact. You think there is some mystical bond binding Humans and Ardents to the real Honor, but there is none. He could tell them that there are some details of the story that people got wrong over the millenia, but the spirit: Knights Radiants are the traitors, Odium is the "good" god, is intact.

Again, Vorinism does not define who the "Voidbringers" are. Jasnah learns after a lot of research that the Parsh were the Voidbringers. People do not know that. Also Odium was probably leading the Humans during the first Desolation. So he could say that there was only one true desolation instead of 99. Then Humans betrayed the Almighty and created the traiterous Knights Radiant to fight against their God. But now they have time to right their wrongs by joining him. See, it`s like in the time of the religious wars in europe. All kinds of people interpreted the bible differently and all of the sudden the pope was the antichrist, or Martin Luther was the antichrist or the swedish king was the biblical king who arises from the North. Point is religious texts and doctrins can be bent and reinterpreted to fit the needs of people reading them. Vorinism is really ill defined. It can be reinterpreted like anybody (Odium) would want it.

Do they? As far as I know, they don`t know about any force called "Honor", they only know the "almighty, creator of mankind", which fits just as well to Odium. The coppermind article on Vorinism does not even mention Honor. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Ardentia Like I said there is not even the concept of an evil god or a devil in Vorinism, these people don`t know anything about shards and powers.

He is not posing as "Honor", he is posing as the Almighty, the one true god. You presume the Ardents know as much about Honor, Odium Radiants and their powers as our POVs do, but they don`t. The only source of knowledge for them is a) Dalinar an heretics or b ) their own doctrin. Thing is Vorin doctrin is so unspecific, it could apply to anything. Odium doesn`t need to lie, he just needs to leave out parts of the truth. Yes, this conflict is way more complicated. More Humans will join Odium and a lot of Parshendi (Venli) will join Dalinar.

Yeah, I think Restares is someone already high up the ranks of the church and will become a major villain in the next installment leading the church against the Kholins. Did Odium convince him that way? Amaram`s turn to Odium was off screen, as far as I can remember it. He could just as likely have promised to reinstate the true power of Vorinism, which is what Amaram and the Son`s of Honor always wanted. There is a nice parallel between the Heralds and the church; Both are doing the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do. Shalash is destroying art, Nale exacts injustice, the church is leading people to Odium, instead of Honor. To get back to Dalinar, I think he is making these poor decisions because he does not have sufficient information. His "spy master" Jasnah is not really telling him anything. He is mostly guessing his way through politics. Now, that I think about it, what is Jasnah doing all day long? If she is gathering information, why doesn`t she tell Dalinar?

Kadash is not a zealot, if Dalinar manages to lose even his support, well... everyone is going to hate him. I wonder about Odium... what do the ardents know about him, actually? Their code of ethics is already pretty Odium-ish: destination before journey, victory before everything else. Could it be that a certain someone manipulated the Vorin faith for millenia in order to bring them to his side? Odium could pretend to be the Almighty, helping the "faithful" against the Heretics. Their Queen also happens to be Jasnah. I think they will absolutly love that. Edit: There is no concept of a "devil" in Vorinism, as far as I have checked on coppermind. Could be a coincidence, but I don`t think so. The only thing Odium needs to do is reveal himself in all his godly glory. The Ardents will have no other choice but to think he is the Almighty, since there is no god but the "One True God". Mistborn spoilers

I just finished rereading the Kadash/ Dalinar scene in OB and realized that Dalinar is truly awful at being a politician. He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies. Another thing I realized: The Kholins don`t have personal friends. Dalinar has no confidant telling him: Look, you may think the Almighty does not exist, but what you are doing right now is really stupid. We need to keep our kingdom together, you know, especially in times like these. So you keep this stuff to yourself, would you? There is a certain amount of insensitivity in regards to other people that is a shared trait among the Kholins. (With the exception of Adolin but he is not really interested in this stuff). I´am calling it that the Ardents are going to betray Dalinar in the next book and join Taravangian/Odium.

I had that theory that Odium is going to betray all Parshmen in the next book. He is really out to convince humanity to join his side. Even if that theory is not true: Odium needs to convince a lot of Humans to join his cause to win. As you said, there are way more Humans than Parsh. And he is really convinced that he will win. He does not even believe he can loose. Essentially the way you put the conflict as Humans vs Parsh is a bit reductive. It`s Team Odium vs Team Honor. Humans and Singers fight on both sides. I believe Odium waited 4500 years to set up the human societies of Roshar. He let them corrupt their instititutions (Vorin church, shin council etc.) that they would be eager to join his side. Alethi culture especially is all about the game, the victory the thrill of battle. All of this plays into Odiums hands. @Calderis Good job on compiling all these quotes and putting together the theory! I totally agree.

Ok, they were manipulated by Odium. "They lent him an ear", This means they were standing under his influence, which is why the Singers regarded Odium as the god of Humans. By the time of SA most Humans would consider Odium as the god of the Parshmen. He is not really controlling most Parshmen (aside from the Fused). but manipulating them. No they probably were not. Humans of different appereances coming from Ashyn stayed in Shinovar for some generations. They should have intermarried living together in this small space, thereby diminishing the differences of the races to some degree. It was my headcanon that the human races did not intermarry because they segregated themselves from each other. It isn`t a theory because we do not know anything about that time. So I don`t have any evidence for this thought, but I also don`t need to because it is just my headcanon/ speculation. We are getting off topic by the way. I just wanted to clarify my statements above.

The different migrations to Roshar can explain some but not all phenotypical differences. There must have been dozens of them if it would account for all differences in appereance. So we can safely say that most modern day Humans on Roshar are descended from the original "Voidbringers" referenced in the dawnchant. I found a solution for my "problem". My headcanon is now that Odium kept some kind of racial segregation between peoples in Shinovar since Humans were under the control of Odium during the first desolation. We know Odium is very keen on punishing entire groups for wrongdoings. (Khen and his group, the way he is espacially mean to Venli just because her ancient ancestors betrayed his cause) Therefore, it is not unfair to assume that Odium had his favorites (for instance the proto-Alethi) among early humans and those who did not obey him as quick in the past (for instance the proto-Shin). Therefore, he punished them by using them as cannonfodder. He would be very keen on keeping those groups segregated. Edit: the Eila Stele completly disproves OP`s theory, as a different post said. It makes clear that the otherworlders were distinctivly human, which was a new kind of sentient being for the authors: They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.

This makes me wonder, why are there phenotypical differences on Roshar? Why are Iriali blond, Alethi tall, Shin pale etc.? This essentially. Edit: (Now I am embaressed, because I sent you guys the wrong link; I meant this of course:) If all Humans migrated from Ashy once, why are people living in these bubbles of same appereances? A. They migrated in groups from Shinovar to the rest of Roshar. Problem: wouldn´t they have intermarried on Shinovar, all living in this tiny space? B. It is as OP says: Everyone on Roshar except the Shin are actually from Roshar and their respective region. Only the Shin came from Ashyn, therefore they have their own specific appereance.

Sorry, that I did not make this clear: I think that the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses, those who were allied to Sadeas, will attempt it, not the Radiants, who are pro-Kholin. The Oaths would prevent that. Besides that`s not how the KR roll. Of course I don`t believe that the KR would commit genocide. Edit 2: Now that I have thought more on this. The weird KR that is staying with King T. might be an exception, who knows. In fact it is my pet theory that some horrific incident commited by ancient Humans triggered the Recreance because the Radiants were unwillingly involved in it. But that`s a theory for a different thread. I presume they would make Ialai Sadeas their usurper Queen. As I outlined in the theory I believe they will have the enthusiastic support of the entire Vorin church. (Because the heretics Jasnah and Dalinar rule House Kholin, the KR are traitors according to Vorin doctrine and the Kholin are going "soft" on literal "Voidbringers/monsters" (i.e. Singers). Those Houses did not fight at Narak or the Tower, they are still at full strength, except for house Sadeas, which is barely existent anymore. King T.`s Vorin kingdom would also join forces with them, well, because King T. is on Odium`s side already. Edit: If Odium drops the Singers, we could maybe see the arrival of uncorrupted Regals. Since Voidbinding is likely not derived from Odium but corrupted by him. So many possibilities.... http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/64139-ob-voidlight-is-not-odiums-investiture/

Well, it isn`t actually my goal to convince you per se. I just had this theory and I thought it might lead somewhere. This is not a fight, were any side is the "victor". But, sure, if you feel like, you don`t want to contribute to this train of thought started by me anymore, I won`t be angry or mad at you. We are all friends here. We will see how much of my theory is correct, when the next book is released. Until then have a nice time on the forum. (Though I am going to go on a big round of told-you-so, if the next installment is playing out like my theory predicted. It would be silly to sugest otherwise.)

I agree. It should be Team Odium vs Team Honor.

Well none of them will side with Parshmen, they just tried to exterminate. That`s why Odium needs to betray the Singers and fully side with Humans. But, I know, you don`t buy that theory. This is what is going to happen. Again I totally agree with you.

Thus opening a rift between Knights Radiants and those Alethi, which compells them to join the dark side of the force.

What I meant by "attempting genocide" is that they will kill thousands upon thousands Singer civilians. This is genocide. By "suceeding" I meant they actually manage to kill every Singer in Alethkar, which I don`t think they will. So nothing Sadeas did was amoral? Sacrificing thousands upon thousands of people for your greed is not amoral? Slavery is not amoral? Sadeas once executed all of an Parshendi army that had surrendere, that isn`t outrightly amoral? This kind of brutal behaviour is a key component of SA. I mean: read the Dalinar flahback chapters! As for your religion. Brandon knows the bible, he knows how much ugly stuff men are capable of: When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down,together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. Deuteronomy 2, 32-34. Please understand: This is not meant to critizise you or your beliefs. Don`t take this personal! These parts of the bible need to be seen in context, which I am not providing here. However, Brandon knows these parts of the bible pretty well. Maybe it even compelled him to write SA and it`s dark themes. Point is: Just because you as an author portray your villains commit horrible crimes, doesn`t mean you are celebrating it, actually you are doing the exact opposite.

I totally agree with you. His non-personal manipulation efforts just don`t show how he personally feels about Parshmen. And according to my theory he is going to drop them like a hot potato in the next book. Taravangian was involved with the Nightwatcher, which gave him the abaility to compile the Diagram. Still, even if he needed some invested bridge, couldn`t he just build one for the Singers with the Thrill to show himself? SA second chapter featured a murder rampage of Szeth killing civilians left and right. It then cued to bridgeruns of slaves being sacrificed en masse for questionable ends. SA is as dark as it gets. I don`t think the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses will suceed, but I think they will attempt a genocide.

Yeah, he was honest, brutally and bluntly so, thereby humiliating him in front of Amaram and whoever else stood there. They don`t have a choice weather they fight, but on how well they fight. Humiliating your loyal subordinats is just bad leadership and does not encourage them to fight as well as they could. It is therefore odd coming from "master manipulator" Odium. He could have said something like: "Oh dear Turash, I value your Passion, but Humans like Amaram are just as important to our victory as Singers. And you know what happens, if we do not win, right?" Sure he needs to manipulate them. But we don`t (?) see any direct contact between Odium and any contemporary Singer besides Venli. Therefore Venli is our best guess on how he would personally treat the average Singer. Maybe not as dismissive, but still. I stand by it. Singers are his tools, Humans his toys. Edit: I also don`t understand why he wouldn`t just show himself to the singers in Alethkar. That would be really helpful for his propaganda efforts saying: "You all see me! I am GOD! Do you feel my power? Our enemies don`t stand a chance against ME!" He clearly does not have the same kind of reservation for Humans, as is shown during the battle of Thaylen, where he himself motivates the army of Sadeas.

I found a little quote that seems to confirm this theory: That is an observation by the Herald Ash, who has a lot more first-hand information on Odium and ancient stuff, because she has been around for millenia since the Oathpact. "Corrupted" could mean that Odium took the original magic voidbinding system and hacked/corrupted it to his own ends.

He would be,if his own Passions would not inhibit his own judgement. How he drove Venli away from his cause, was really stupid. And he is in general pretty ungrateful to his loyal Parshmen. That is not good leadership! Take Turash, he humiliated and threatened him for voicing dissent, while Amaram got away with it. That`s what he says to Turash to humiliate him, He does not do the same to Amaram. I will not persuade you all with this, I know. Currently the textual evidence is not definitive enough to really prove it. It leaves it as a possible option. It just makes too much sense in the grander scheme of things as I outlined above. Odium needs Humans on a large scale to fight for him, that won`t work if he keeps the Singers in his coalition. Besides, Humans are the original voidbringers. Why would Odium not have a soft spot for them? (You would say: Well, because he is Odium and all he does is hating and manipulating people; And I would answer: Well, we don`t know enough about Odium to say that he only hates people)

One would hope that as many Singers follow Venli as possible. It`s Odium`s version of being nice . The same as he is nice to Dalinar and not to the Singers. Well, he is a master foreseer, who can foresee millenia into the future. I looked that scene up. He is unnecessarily rude to the Singer Turash, an "old friend" who followed him for millenia by threatening and telling him, that he is just a tool: (According to my theory he is totally lying here, he has a clear sweet spot for Humans.) Then he is nice to Amaram, the little soldier boy, who just joined his ranks: When A. voices disgust, O. does not simply command subserviance or threatens him, but he sucessfully persuades A. to do it willingly, by promising to let him kill Dalinar someday. Assuming he does not let Dalinar kill him first. So this fatherly love only goes so far. However, there is a magnificent contrast in how O. treats Turash the Singer and Amaram the Human. Both voice dissent, Tushar is threatened and reminded how worthless he is, Amaram is persuaded.

Yes he was. the entire tone of O. is like between a father, who cannot believe his son made his first tiny baby-steps. It`s..well patronising yet he could not manipulate Venlli to stay in line.

Why is he so unforgiving to Venli though: Why isn`t he telling the same sweet lies to Venli? He is systematically nice/paternal to humans and unforgiving to Singers. Moash gets away with soooo much stuff and he is even promoted. He does not need to be nice to Taravangian to bring him to his side. He could have easily threatened him, Yet, he does not do it. This cannot be a coincidence. Edit: We don`t actually see an interaction between an old Singer and Odium, do we? Edit: 2 Yes we do: Turash and Odium, see my post below.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. -Nietzsche Aphorism Part 1 Exterminating Parshmen In Words of Radiance the first assumption of Bridge Four after they eavesdrop on a conversation of Shallan warning Adolin of the Singers is to assume she wants to exterminate them all. In OB Jasnah makes this offhand comment: It`s in the sake of an argument, I know, but the extermination of all Singers is actually thinkable. If Parshmen genocide is thinkable for our heroes, then it might be more than thinkable for more shady people among the leaders of the Alethi like Ialai Sadeas. And the real war has not even started yet. Throughout OB the Parshmen are referred to as “monsters”. What do you do with monsters? You slay them. Additionally: the war against the Parshendi was ended by killing almost all Parshendi, why should the same trick not work on a grander scale? Part 2 Rebellious Parshmen The uprising of the Parshmen resembles a slave or peasant uprising. Slaves shove off their masters shackles and free themselves. You know how many slave/ peasant uprisings have been successful in western ancient and medieval history? Right, not a single one. They seized a lot of territory but were ultimately crushed, all of them. There are reasons for this. Slaves don`t have any fighting experience, masters have professional armies, that fought their entire lives. We see this at the battle of Thaylen the Sadeas armies would have totally crushed the Singer-army, even with support from the Fused and the beasts. And the Fused aren´t they these tactical geniuses? Yes they are, but there are only a few hundred of them and a lot of them have gone insane. Essentially the Singers are normal people like you and me trying to fight a professional boxer. Even if we had the best coach and the best strategy ever (the Fused/ Voidspren), we could never beat the professional boxer. Even if we trained every hour of every day for a year- we just could not. But the Parshmen have the numbers, don`t they? If you compare current army sizes, yes. But, ultimately, there are way more Humans on Roshar and in Alethkar than Singers. All these Humans in Alethkhar need Parshmen guardians to look after them. So they cannot bring their full army force to battle because they need to garrison all those towns and cities in Alethkar. Remember the mantra Shardbearers don`t hold any territory? Well the same goes for the Fused. Plus the Alethi have a giant pool of possible recruits in Jah Keved. So no, the Singers don´t have the numbers. Part 3 A war in Alethkar What does this mean? Well Odium simply needs Humans to change sides on a massive scale to win the war. He is deadly sure that he will win: Like, there is no possible way he could not. Therefore, he has to have a sure plan on how to turn most of the military establishment to his side. How will he do it? By persuading them that it is necessary, just and feels satisfying to exterminate all Parshmen they find. I think Dalinar`s flashback chapters gave us a hint at what the current Alethi ethics of war are like. It will be worse, if the enemy happens to be not even human/ is a “monster”. Plus, what will they see, if they enter Alethkar? Abused Humans. This will surely persuade them that a war of extermination is not only necessary, but emotionally justified. I imagine the debate on the conduct of the war will open a rift between House Kholin, Aladar, Sebarial and the others. Dalinar will urge upon a honorable conduct of war. The other Houses will see this first as a weak and soft hand approach, then as a betrayal. After a few decisive battles for the Alethi at the beginning of the war, the Fused will opt for a guerilla war strategy. By that time the other Houses will desert from House Kholin and follow a new leader, perhaps Ialai Sadeas. They will begin the extermination of all Parshmen and fight the Kholins. By that time they will be in Odium`s hands. The Vorin church will actively support them. Aren`t the Parshmen literally the Voidbringers? Aren`t they supposed to kill them according to their religion? Aren´t Queen Jasnah and Dalinar heretics? Aren`t the Knights Radiant traitors? What about that really powerful god that revealed himself and who says he loves us? He must be the Almighty right? This is how the Alethi as a nation will become the monsters they fought. Part 4 Odium`s children Odium regards Humans as his children: The same attitude goes for the dialogue with Taravangian. Odium does not actually want to kill all Humans, he wants to bring them into his fatherly arms. The Singers are treated pretty harshly by Odium and the Voidspren in OB, which is in stark contrast to how he treats Dalinar and Taravangian. Odium wants his beloved children to fight for him, just like it had been in ancient times, before Honor and the spren intervened. The Singers are just a tool to get his children to his side and always have been. Odium will throw them away, once they will have outlived their usefulness. (I posted an earlier version of this a few months ago, I hope you forgive me for opening a new thread)