Diomedes

Shallan`s family might be an exception. I got the impression that mainstream Vorinism is pretty corrupted, regardless weather this concerns high society or not. Our closest view of rural Vorinism would be at Hearthstone. There is not even an Ardent in town as far as I can remember it. There are exceptions of course like Kadash (Dalinar`s ardent). But on the whole the situation seems to resemble that of the catholic church of the 15th century.

Fair point. Honor in itself is not "good" or ethical on its own. But it is about promises, oaths and the journey. Vornism, as it is today, is about none of these things. The power of the church is the only thing that matters. It does not care about oaths or the journey. Best Example might be Aesuadan`s Ardent in WoR. He justified everything that the Queen did by saying: well we like to do it, why stop doing it? That sounds very Odium-ish to me. Skybreakers might be Machiavellians, but they are a very specific type of Machiavellians that is hypersensitive about oaths and laws.

In this post I am going to argue that the Ardents are Odium worshippers. Hear me out, it makes more sense than you would believe. It is obvious that Vornism started out as a genuine belief in Honor a few thousand years ago. But nowadays? What kind of ethics would a genuine belief in Honor entail? It would mean journey before destination: it is more important how you fight/live then what you fight/live for. It is not even important that you win in a fight (or in life). Everything that matters is the journey. Now, what the Vorin church teaches is the exact opposite of what a genuine belief in Honor would look like. They don`t even have any set of ethics, actually. It is only important that you do your job as a soldier/ farmer etc. well. It is only important that you win. Subsequently, Alethi culture is all about the game, the victory, the Thrill. This set of ethics is, well, of Odium. I would argue, therefore, that it does not matter that they pay lip service to the Heralds and that their faith started out as worshipping Honor. The Ardents of our time are Odium worshippers. The best example are the “Sons of Honor”. They claim to want to restore Honor. Yet, they only want to possess the power associated with a god and restore the power of the Vorin church. They don`t care about Honor. It is not surprising that the only known son of Honor, Amaram, ends up on Odium`s side. The Ardents will soon join their actual god and lord, almighty Odium, led by Restares, who is probably someone high up in the hierarchy of the church.

Because he is not doing this. He is laying down ALL the facts. He is creating a "new" religion based on Odium. Let`s call it Odiumism. And the Ardents join this new religion, because the old religion seems to be almost the same as old Vorinsm. The Ethics are the same (big deal), the guy in charge of Humanity is called the Almighty, there was a Desolation. He is essentially selling a new spin on the same facts, by redifining all religious terms. Point is his story is as much true as is Vorinism`s story. Actually his story has more facts to it because there weren`t 99 desolations, Honor died and so on. Then being converted to Odiumism the Ardents will lie by telling themselves that they felt the presence of Odium all along for millenia. This is fine by Odium, because he is not telling a single lie. Edit: Now that I think about it, not even the Ardents are actually lying to themselves. During present times the Ardents are Odium worshippers. Because their ethics are all about Odium and not at all about Honor. Their religion morphed over the millenia from a Honor worshipping religion to an Odium worshipping one. Because their ethics changed. Edit 2: I think our misunderstandig is a result on what is defined as a "religion". For you guys the facts of it`s historical inception is key, which determine the understanding of religious doctrin in present times, For me it`s all about what a religion has become, and what their code of ethics is, what they want to say with their stories.

Now, it is you who is ignoring my points , I argued that the historical origin of a religion is different from the reason people belive in it. Vorinism, historically, was based on the worship of Honor. But it does not need to be in future. Odium can say that indeed a lot of the stuff you, the Ardents, thought was true is not. (The Heralds etc.). Point is the "new" religion based on Odium looks a lot like old Vorinism, with some alterations. This is important because it makes it easy for the Ardents to switch to the new religion. Well, then pretend christianity would be facts based. Then, tomorrow on the 1.11.2018 literal Jesus Christ comes down to Earth, telling the people that St. Paul twisted his message and some major parts of the doctrin are not true. Would christians believe in him? (Yes, they would, because he can break the laws of physics and stuff) And they would go on to pretend that they had known it all along that certain parts of their religions were wrong. Odium does not need to inhibit people`s ability to lie to themselves.

It does not matter, where the term "voidbringer" originated from. It only matters that Odium`s definition and the Ardent`s definition align. That definition would be for "Voidbringer": Everyone who fights against me the Almighty. Therefore Odium is not fooling the Ardents, since they agree on that definition. The same goes for the definition of "Desolation". Odium tells them: Only the first one was a proper desolation, a time when everyone else called you falsly "voidbringers". Because I, the Almighty, was leading you. If Ardents and Odium agree on that definition, the spirit is not broken. The same again for the term "the Almighty". Both parties agree that they mean Odium, thus nobody is deceived. Well what is the basis of any religion? Is it really historical events? If that would be the case later generations would not know, what religion is right or wrong. No, the basis for any religion is a feeling of revelation, the feeling of the presence of a god. That is how you are supposed to know that your religion is truthful. Odium would argue that their religion was indeed based historically on a guy called Honor and his heralds, who deceived people into revering him and twisted a lot of facts. But their religious feeling for a god leading humanity was justified. It just happened to be that the guy who initiated the religion was not actually god, he, Odium, was the cause for their religious feelings. If tomorrow a literal god would come down to planet earth in a ray of light, who can break the laws of physics, would tell christians (or muslims or jews): "I am your lord, your creator. It just happens that 60% of the stuff in the bible is not actually true. But 40% are totally true." Would Christians be dismayed or believe that they had been wrong all this time? No! they would celebrate, congratulate themselves and think that all this time there was actually a guy hearing their prayers, even if some of the stuff in the bible is not true; Same would go for the Ardents.

I am sorry, if I offended you somehow, that was not my intention. I am not saying you are simply wrong, I offer arguments to you. Arguments you can disagree with. I think we are talking past each other here. There was a terrible war called the first Desolation, in which Odium was leading the Humans against Voidbringers. That part is TRUE (probably), and is in line with the teachings of Vorinism. An Almighty God leading Humanity against a vicious foe. It matters that it is true because this way Odium is not lying, when he says he was leading them during the desolation. What is true and what the Ardents believe matches up. Thus, the spirit of the letter is not broken. Now Vorinism does not define who the Voidbringers are. It could be anyone, literally. It could be Dalinar, it could be the Parshendi, or some type of spren. What the Vorins believe to be voidbringers is not defined. Because there is no definition, everything could fit. The only definition existing is that they are the enemies of the Almighty. Vorins believe that the voidbringers do not have a god. So if a god shows up, it has to be the Almighty. What Odium would claim is that he truly is the Almighty, they have been praying to him all those millenia. They felt close to him when they prayed. Because this guy called Honor is dead, but your God the Almighty is alive. Thus, I, Odium have to be the Almighty. It does not matter, if some teachings appear to be wrong. Odium will tell them that the Heralds were actually agents of Honor, not of him, the "Almighty". That Humans betrayed him, that there was only one desolation, not 99. That Humans fought against him long wars that later generations called "desolations". These are all facts, just told from Odiums`s perspective. Odium is not lying. It is just a matter of definition, what is defined as Voidbringer, Desolation, God. This change of definitions will lead in a revolution in the Vorin beliefs. But the center of the beliefsystem is the existence of god and him leading humanity. Everything else is secondary. And that center is matching up with the reality of the first Desolation. I hope I explained myself better.

But Odium probably did lead humans during the first Desolation, the spirit is intact. You think there is some mystical bond binding Humans and Ardents to the real Honor, but there is none. He could tell them that there are some details of the story that people got wrong over the millenia, but the spirit: Knights Radiants are the traitors, Odium is the "good" god, is intact.

Again, Vorinism does not define who the "Voidbringers" are. Jasnah learns after a lot of research that the Parsh were the Voidbringers. People do not know that. Also Odium was probably leading the Humans during the first Desolation. So he could say that there was only one true desolation instead of 99. Then Humans betrayed the Almighty and created the traiterous Knights Radiant to fight against their God. But now they have time to right their wrongs by joining him. See, it`s like in the time of the religious wars in europe. All kinds of people interpreted the bible differently and all of the sudden the pope was the antichrist, or Martin Luther was the antichrist or the swedish king was the biblical king who arises from the North. Point is religious texts and doctrins can be bent and reinterpreted to fit the needs of people reading them. Vorinism is really ill defined. It can be reinterpreted like anybody (Odium) would want it.

Do they? As far as I know, they don`t know about any force called "Honor", they only know the "almighty, creator of mankind", which fits just as well to Odium. The coppermind article on Vorinism does not even mention Honor. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Ardentia Like I said there is not even the concept of an evil god or a devil in Vorinism, these people don`t know anything about shards and powers.

He is not posing as "Honor", he is posing as the Almighty, the one true god. You presume the Ardents know as much about Honor, Odium Radiants and their powers as our POVs do, but they don`t. The only source of knowledge for them is a) Dalinar an heretics or b ) their own doctrin. Thing is Vorin doctrin is so unspecific, it could apply to anything. Odium doesn`t need to lie, he just needs to leave out parts of the truth. Yes, this conflict is way more complicated. More Humans will join Odium and a lot of Parshendi (Venli) will join Dalinar.

Yeah, I think Restares is someone already high up the ranks of the church and will become a major villain in the next installment leading the church against the Kholins. Did Odium convince him that way? Amaram`s turn to Odium was off screen, as far as I can remember it. He could just as likely have promised to reinstate the true power of Vorinism, which is what Amaram and the Son`s of Honor always wanted. There is a nice parallel between the Heralds and the church; Both are doing the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do. Shalash is destroying art, Nale exacts injustice, the church is leading people to Odium, instead of Honor. To get back to Dalinar, I think he is making these poor decisions because he does not have sufficient information. His "spy master" Jasnah is not really telling him anything. He is mostly guessing his way through politics. Now, that I think about it, what is Jasnah doing all day long? If she is gathering information, why doesn`t she tell Dalinar?

Kadash is not a zealot, if Dalinar manages to lose even his support, well... everyone is going to hate him. I wonder about Odium... what do the ardents know about him, actually? Their code of ethics is already pretty Odium-ish: destination before journey, victory before everything else. Could it be that a certain someone manipulated the Vorin faith for millenia in order to bring them to his side? Odium could pretend to be the Almighty, helping the "faithful" against the Heretics. Their Queen also happens to be Jasnah. I think they will absolutly love that. Edit: There is no concept of a "devil" in Vorinism, as far as I have checked on coppermind. Could be a coincidence, but I don`t think so. The only thing Odium needs to do is reveal himself in all his godly glory. The Ardents will have no other choice but to think he is the Almighty, since there is no god but the "One True God". Mistborn spoilers

I just finished rereading the Kadash/ Dalinar scene in OB and realized that Dalinar is truly awful at being a politician. He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies. Another thing I realized: The Kholins don`t have personal friends. Dalinar has no confidant telling him: Look, you may think the Almighty does not exist, but what you are doing right now is really stupid. We need to keep our kingdom together, you know, especially in times like these. So you keep this stuff to yourself, would you? There is a certain amount of insensitivity in regards to other people that is a shared trait among the Kholins. (With the exception of Adolin but he is not really interested in this stuff). I´am calling it that the Ardents are going to betray Dalinar in the next book and join Taravangian/Odium.

I had that theory that Odium is going to betray all Parshmen in the next book. He is really out to convince humanity to join his side. Even if that theory is not true: Odium needs to convince a lot of Humans to join his cause to win. As you said, there are way more Humans than Parsh. And he is really convinced that he will win. He does not even believe he can loose. Essentially the way you put the conflict as Humans vs Parsh is a bit reductive. It`s Team Odium vs Team Honor. Humans and Singers fight on both sides. I believe Odium waited 4500 years to set up the human societies of Roshar. He let them corrupt their instititutions (Vorin church, shin council etc.) that they would be eager to join his side. Alethi culture especially is all about the game, the victory the thrill of battle. All of this plays into Odiums hands. @Calderis Good job on compiling all these quotes and putting together the theory! I totally agree.

Ok, they were manipulated by Odium. "They lent him an ear", This means they were standing under his influence, which is why the Singers regarded Odium as the god of Humans. By the time of SA most Humans would consider Odium as the god of the Parshmen. He is not really controlling most Parshmen (aside from the Fused). but manipulating them. No they probably were not. Humans of different appereances coming from Ashyn stayed in Shinovar for some generations. They should have intermarried living together in this small space, thereby diminishing the differences of the races to some degree. It was my headcanon that the human races did not intermarry because they segregated themselves from each other. It isn`t a theory because we do not know anything about that time. So I don`t have any evidence for this thought, but I also don`t need to because it is just my headcanon/ speculation. We are getting off topic by the way. I just wanted to clarify my statements above.

The different migrations to Roshar can explain some but not all phenotypical differences. There must have been dozens of them if it would account for all differences in appereance. So we can safely say that most modern day Humans on Roshar are descended from the original "Voidbringers" referenced in the dawnchant. I found a solution for my "problem". My headcanon is now that Odium kept some kind of racial segregation between peoples in Shinovar since Humans were under the control of Odium during the first desolation. We know Odium is very keen on punishing entire groups for wrongdoings. (Khen and his group, the way he is espacially mean to Venli just because her ancient ancestors betrayed his cause) Therefore, it is not unfair to assume that Odium had his favorites (for instance the proto-Alethi) among early humans and those who did not obey him as quick in the past (for instance the proto-Shin). Therefore, he punished them by using them as cannonfodder. He would be very keen on keeping those groups segregated. Edit: the Eila Stele completly disproves OP`s theory, as a different post said. It makes clear that the otherworlders were distinctivly human, which was a new kind of sentient being for the authors: They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.

This makes me wonder, why are there phenotypical differences on Roshar? Why are Iriali blond, Alethi tall, Shin pale etc.? This essentially. Edit: (Now I am embaressed, because I sent you guys the wrong link; I meant this of course:) If all Humans migrated from Ashy once, why are people living in these bubbles of same appereances? A. They migrated in groups from Shinovar to the rest of Roshar. Problem: wouldn´t they have intermarried on Shinovar, all living in this tiny space? B. It is as OP says: Everyone on Roshar except the Shin are actually from Roshar and their respective region. Only the Shin came from Ashyn, therefore they have their own specific appereance.

Sorry, that I did not make this clear: I think that the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses, those who were allied to Sadeas, will attempt it, not the Radiants, who are pro-Kholin. The Oaths would prevent that. Besides that`s not how the KR roll. Of course I don`t believe that the KR would commit genocide. Edit 2: Now that I have thought more on this. The weird KR that is staying with King T. might be an exception, who knows. In fact it is my pet theory that some horrific incident commited by ancient Humans triggered the Recreance because the Radiants were unwillingly involved in it. But that`s a theory for a different thread. I presume they would make Ialai Sadeas their usurper Queen. As I outlined in the theory I believe they will have the enthusiastic support of the entire Vorin church. (Because the heretics Jasnah and Dalinar rule House Kholin, the KR are traitors according to Vorin doctrine and the Kholin are going "soft" on literal "Voidbringers/monsters" (i.e. Singers). Those Houses did not fight at Narak or the Tower, they are still at full strength, except for house Sadeas, which is barely existent anymore. King T.`s Vorin kingdom would also join forces with them, well, because King T. is on Odium`s side already. Edit: If Odium drops the Singers, we could maybe see the arrival of uncorrupted Regals. Since Voidbinding is likely not derived from Odium but corrupted by him. So many possibilities.... http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/64139-ob-voidlight-is-not-odiums-investiture/

Well, it isn`t actually my goal to convince you per se. I just had this theory and I thought it might lead somewhere. This is not a fight, were any side is the "victor". But, sure, if you feel like, you don`t want to contribute to this train of thought started by me anymore, I won`t be angry or mad at you. We are all friends here. We will see how much of my theory is correct, when the next book is released. Until then have a nice time on the forum. (Though I am going to go on a big round of told-you-so, if the next installment is playing out like my theory predicted. It would be silly to sugest otherwise.)

I agree. It should be Team Odium vs Team Honor.

Well none of them will side with Parshmen, they just tried to exterminate. That`s why Odium needs to betray the Singers and fully side with Humans. But, I know, you don`t buy that theory. This is what is going to happen. Again I totally agree with you.

Thus opening a rift between Knights Radiants and those Alethi, which compells them to join the dark side of the force.

What I meant by "attempting genocide" is that they will kill thousands upon thousands Singer civilians. This is genocide. By "suceeding" I meant they actually manage to kill every Singer in Alethkar, which I don`t think they will. So nothing Sadeas did was amoral? Sacrificing thousands upon thousands of people for your greed is not amoral? Slavery is not amoral? Sadeas once executed all of an Parshendi army that had surrendere, that isn`t outrightly amoral? This kind of brutal behaviour is a key component of SA. I mean: read the Dalinar flahback chapters! As for your religion. Brandon knows the bible, he knows how much ugly stuff men are capable of: When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down,together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. Deuteronomy 2, 32-34. Please understand: This is not meant to critizise you or your beliefs. Don`t take this personal! These parts of the bible need to be seen in context, which I am not providing here. However, Brandon knows these parts of the bible pretty well. Maybe it even compelled him to write SA and it`s dark themes. Point is: Just because you as an author portray your villains commit horrible crimes, doesn`t mean you are celebrating it, actually you are doing the exact opposite.

I totally agree with you. His non-personal manipulation efforts just don`t show how he personally feels about Parshmen. And according to my theory he is going to drop them like a hot potato in the next book. Taravangian was involved with the Nightwatcher, which gave him the abaility to compile the Diagram. Still, even if he needed some invested bridge, couldn`t he just build one for the Singers with the Thrill to show himself? SA second chapter featured a murder rampage of Szeth killing civilians left and right. It then cued to bridgeruns of slaves being sacrificed en masse for questionable ends. SA is as dark as it gets. I don`t think the anti-Kholin Alethi Houses will suceed, but I think they will attempt a genocide.