Jenet

Many good points here. I especially found the idea that Jasnah as a child was locked into a monastery cell interesting and plausible. I could not imagine Navani stand for someone locking her child in while she was screaming and crying, but when a hospital says they will care for the child and cure her, it's difficult as a parent to protest. And Jasnah "got better". That is, she learnt to shut up about what she could see and do. Just like Shallan and Szeth. And yes, I imagine how Jasnah would learn to be wary and hostile. Both towards the clergy and towards men, actually. Well, we will learn more about what happened to her eventually. It's just interesting to see what we already know. Her hostility towards Amaram though, must be more than what she has learnt from Kaladin and Dalinar. I feel it must be something that she has experienced directly with Amaram herself. She would not lose her composure completely as she did at the scribe's meeting unless there was something personal. And why is she so hostile to the street footpads that she killed with soulcasting? Shallan felt Jasnah was especially aggressive against them, and thought: "What was done to you?" She has locked up her feelings almost completely, even Navani admits that. And she is quite reserved towards men in general. I sense that there is more to this.

Good question. I have lost my tiny respect for Gavilar, and I would very much like to see a collection of facts that we know of him as a father, to judge how he influenced his children and why he insists on such terrible matches for his children. And as you noted, without even trying to involve them in the business of the Sons of Honor. Some things that come up in my mind: We know that Jasnah had a hard time when sick when she was a little girl. Was she locked in a room alone? Who did this? Jasnah seems to have some respect for her father when she talks to him during the feast before he was killed. And she grieved when he died. She obviously hates Amaram. Why didn't she hate her father for forcing the match?

Yes, I really find it interesting how mean he is towards her. He quite clearly has guessed that she loved Dalinar and not him. Even though they both tried to hide the fact even to themselves. This jealousy might be the reason for his cruelty. And he then tries to blame her for choosing the one who would make her queen. But I cannot see that Navani ever had the ambition to become queen. Her interests are not in that direction. I find that Gavilar comes across as the average psychopath. Very good at finding accusations that will pain his victim and find purchase in their minds. I guess that he has been doing this for a while, so that he knows very well how she will react, so that he can dominate the argument. - Her tendency to value the doers more than the leaders, and her bad conscience for leading only - Her doubt as to how her ideas and creative work with her engineering teams are of any value - Her bad concience for choosing the brother she loved the least, and trying to convince herself that she loved both - Her self doubt when it comes to her royal ambitions and how that influenced her choice of husband I comes across like Gavilar is the one who has widened these cracks in Navani's confidence. And it seems she has managed to get over a lot of them after he disappeared out of her life. But wow, I wonder what it did to her that her prayer was answered so promptly...

Many engineers think that bug fixing and testing is the most important work in development. And yes, it is important, but if it wasn't for the really imaginative and creative entrepreneurial engineers, we would not see much really new stuff. We may devide engineers into two types: The technically oriented, detail focused, conscientious engineer is the most common, and that is good, for most of the time consuming work is done by them. But in order to innovate, we need the Steve Jobses and the Edisons and the Henry Fords of the world. These people are often resented by the Wozniaks of the engineering community, because they often get most of the glory for the inventions. Just like Sanderson has very accomplished people to help him finish his books, Navani has other engineers to finish her inventions. We are happy that Sanderson is able to delegate proof reading, continuity, illustrations, arcanums, project management etc to others, so he can write more stories. Navani does the same. Engineering is all about the guts to try out new ideas and designs and live through the onerous testing, failure, ridicule, struggle, and testing and failure yet again and again. That is why we have development teams. Very few advanced designs are carried out by just one engineer. I would say none. I love the fact that we get to follow the development of Navani's inventions, from painreal betas via archer plantforms to air ships. And with the knowledge that there will be space ships in the future. The airship design is vulnerable and fickle at the moment, but every first working version is like that. I bet the next version will feature a much more sophisticated technology. Just imagine the development of cell phone batteries. How many times have we said the the technology has come to the end of the capacity of the medium? And then we found a new medium and could make smaller batteries with more capacity? Navani's job is to be the entrepreneur and provide the creative ideas. This is a very important job. But she has a habit of diminishing her own importance, and think that she should be more of a doer. As we see in her prologue. This lets us, as readers, believe more easily that she is an impostor, that she really isn't an engineer, she lets all the others do the job, and takes the glory from all of them. We believe in her impostor syndrome's story. Gavilar is a good bully and knows his prey. He exploits all her weak points and of course he pounces on these. But it is unfair. She is a very good engineer, and perhaps soon a rocket scientist. I cut and pasted this list of the "big five" personality traits from another site. It is important when putting together an R&D engineering team that you get the right mix of traits in your team mates. First have a look at the traits: openness to experience (inventive/curious vs. consistent/cautious) conscientiousness (efficient/organized vs. extravagant/careless) extraversion (outgoing/energetic vs. solitary/reserved) agreeableness (friendly/compassionate vs. challenging/callous) neuroticism (sensitive/nervous vs. resilient/confident) The project manager should have a healthy mix of conscientiousness and openness to be able to both take in the innovations from the inventor and to communicate with the doers. Must be balanced on agreeableness, not too nice and wishy-washy, not too cross, in order to both communicate and to get things done. The nitty gritty doers need a heavy dose of conscientiousness, and often are low on agreeableness. Low on extraversion and high on cautiousness.. You need many of these. The inventor needs to be extremely open to experience, which is the exact opposite of cautious. Navani is in fact quite organized for an inventor, she likes neat markets and streets, and often comments on tidyness and nice order. She is quite high on concientiousness. But she is not the person to struggle over flight data for months to find the tiny details that will improve the safety of the current design. She will already be onto new ideas for the next design, and even the next one after that. Gavilar is wrong. Either because he is uneducated or because he is evil. But he knows her insecurities, he does.,

I find it extremely interesting to find that Shallan has an even deeper and more terrible truth to say, and that she has come so far as to admit that this truth exists. I agree with those who think that all the aspects of Shallan we have seen until now have been masks, also the Shallan in the flashbacks. In fact I know many people who only wear different kinds of masks, and who have hidden their real selves all their lives, even without a diagnose. I have no first hand experience with DID, so bear with my ignorance in the following. I also find it interesting to see more of Navani in the same context. Until now, we have seen the unflappable queen, the warm mother and the loving wife. At the same time we have seen a little bit of the rebel. But we have never before seen the insecure Navani. The bullied Navani. The impostor syndrome Navani. The country girl Navani. I love to imagine that the two women are not so different. They just have come to different stages in their lives. And perhaps it is possible to assume that Shallan has been through more terrible things in her childhood, and thus has a more difficult way to travel. I love the way Sanderson is telling us the story through the eyes of the different characters. That means we must interpret what they tell us. And Shallan's POVs are especially untrustworthy. Not because she is a liar, but because she has such a low opinion of herself. Yes, well, Pattern would perhaps call them lies. Why did Shallan's mother find it necessary to get help to kill her own daughter? We know that she had connections in the Skybreakers, and that they sought up and killed radiants in the bud. But we also know that the Davar family had plenty of history when it comes to the Nahel bond. What made it so terrible for her mother that Shallan could surgebind? And what made Pattern attracted to her in the first place? We can only speculate, which I won't do here. I expect Sanderson to come up with something we never would have imagined. I only wish to imagine what all this must have done to a small child. She was nine when she killed her mother, wasn't she? Then she must have been even younger when the most terrible thing happened. And there must have been guilt in her for what happened. Not necessarily her fault, but guilt installed in her, either from others or from herself. Children extremely easily pick up guilt feelings for what happens to them, even though they were not the least to blame. I dearly hope that Shallan will be able to face her last truth, and that coping with this will help her get through to the strength we glimpse in the "little girl who killed her mother". Not because killing is admirable, but because that feeling of self defence is the glimpse she remembers when confronting the Midnight Mother, and that urges her to fight with perhaps a tiny bit of her original self exposed under the layers of disguise. As a teacher, I have recently watched and helped a student get rid of his masks. An earlier orphan with heaps of qualities that he could not see himself. He was only mirroring his surroundings, and we could not see his real self. An important healing took place, and suddenly his serene self came out. It was quite a shock, so different from everything else we had seen from him. I think Shallan is like that as well. That her serene self is still hidden, and that we have not seen it yet. But everything else we have seen is also Shallan. Everyone is multifaceted. Veil is the tough and sturdy part. I understand the thought that Veil is the closest to the real Shallan, because her eyes are the only ones that betray her pain, and the barkeepers see it. They have practice. But Mask Shallan and Radiant are parts of her too, and I like the way she now is able to juggle them at will, knowing all the time which one that is in control. Much like we all do when letting parts of us take control as needs arise. And when out spying, she has little use for Mask Shallan, but ample use for Radiant and Veil. She reminds me so of Steven Leeds with his aspects that he can create whenever he needs a new skill. He learnt to live with all these awesome skills in his head, and I am sure that Shallan will too. So, enter Navani. Let's look at her as a mirror of what Shallan can grow into when she matures. Sanderson lets us come to know all his characters at a certain point in life, and later tells ut stories about how they became that person, or how they developed afterwards. It means we learn how difficult it is to judge a person by how they seem right now. What if Navani was more like Shallan when she was younger? What if she, too, have skeletons in her closet? What if she has grown to flick pamphlets across the face of everyone who picks at her and to do whatever she likes regardless of what the ardents or the court says, because she has lived a hard life when she was young? Navani is also an artist. An engineer who doesn't bother with the details, and gives her subordinates all the credit for her ingenuity. I can see traces of the insecure girl in her. And hints as to how she has matured into the woman who can give the Blackthorn a partner of equal stature. You don't become Dalinar's equal without struggle. I think and hope that Shallan will be able to travel the same way of queens.

I agree with this. There is something about Moash that is very difficult to forgive and easy to hate. And I very much want to forgive people, if they seek forgiveness. Life is hard. Especially for a darkeyes where your grandparents can be killed by a whim, and your leaders get their positions because of their eye colour and not because of their virtues and skills. I have been trying to understand why I dislike Moash so much, even more than Sadeas and Amaram. I think it is because Moash is so resentful and nihilistic. He does not have any values. Sadeas is a coward, greedy and egotistical. Amaram also works only to promote himself. Moash just does not care. You get the feeling that he would kill anyone, if he gets the order to do it. His brother, if he had one. His grandparents, if they were still alive. He almost killed Kaladin, his best friend. The friend who had liberated him, and even made him a powerful lighteyes. And still he tried to kill him. Just because. There is no way to justify the fact that Moash tried to kill Kaladin, in my opinion. Both Moash and Kaladin are resentful because of what was done to them and their families. Only Kaladin sees that resentment is harmful and wrong. The problem with resentment is that if you give way to it, it will destroy you. And it often leads to nihilism. I stole a definition from Dictionary.com: Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. I believe the reason why I dislike Moash so much, is his nihilistic behavior. And you cannot trust a person like that. You can trust Sadeas to be deceitful and greedy. You can trust Amaram to be false and stuck-up. But you cannot trust Moash to be anything, because he has no values at all. It seems he still is trying to find meaning, and he seems to have found some sort of meaning in the truths about the origins of the humans and his joining the Fused and their fight. But this feels hollow to me. I seems to just feed his nihilism and his resentment. Like school shooters say they did it because they were bullied at school. Why don't all other victims of bullying go out and shoot innocent people? Because they know it is wrong. Nihilists don't care, because they do not believe in right or wrong. They want the world to go to hell, because the world deserves it. I sometimes get tired of Kaladin's resentful feelings as well, but he knows what is right. He fights it. He comes around. He even almost gets killed because of it. Not many people would have been able to do what Kaladin did there, and I don't blame people for not being exceptional. But Moash is being the opposite. He actively tries to kill his friend. He did not have to. He could have stopped. Despite this, I hope for a redemption arc for Moash. Many of our heroes have done terrible things, and we forgive them because they repent, and they struggle to become better persons. However: what makes a person irredeemable in SA? Sadeas, obviously. Amaram too. Beause they were not willing to change. They wanted to continue their evil ways. I sort of feel that Moash's nihilistic ways falls somewhere in between Honor/Cultivation and Odium, and that he has chosen to not follow any rules or values at all. And that this choice is more scary and disgusting than even following Odium. Because you can never know what a nihilist will do.

I hope Shallan gets deeper into the Ghostbloods and takes some control there I hope Szeth goes to Shinovar and takes control there. I never liked the forced passive culture of the Shin, and I hope we will see that they have indeed kept some of their former warrior culture, but now are able to use their knowledge and competence in a better, more honorable and cultured way than when the humans first invaded the rest of Roshar. I hope Rock becomes King of the Peaks and unifies his people. I hope the Herdazian general with the handcuffs takes control in Herdaz to join Dalinar and his coalition. I hope to see Venli and Rlain becoming both Radiants and some kind of leaders of their people, joining in the fight against Odium. I hope to see more of what hides in the Reshi Isles, the Purelake and all the countries that are still not occupied by the enemy. I think maybe there are resources there that we do not know much of yet. I hope to learn more of Aimia and if there still is something left of its wonders. I hope that it's possible to save some of the heralds and that they may be of help. Ishar may be possible to save, since Lift managed to save some of Nale's sanity. And maybe Ishar isn't as insane as everybody believes. I really hope Taln will be saved in some way. I am looking forward to see who will become the two other bordsmiths. I look forward to Navani's work with fabrials. I think that may be awesome. And I look forward to see everyone grow and become even more awesome. I want them to take control over non Odium Roshar and harness all the good forces and the half good forces and bring on a fight that is more awesome than I can imagine. Edit: And most of all, I hope we will see more of Cultivation and understand more about her plans and long time strategies. I think that one may be full of surprises.

I really love these posts, Ookla! I have nothing to add yet, but yes, keep them coming, they keep me thinking and wondering, seeing new angles all the time. Thank you.

I've been thinking a lot on this. Resentment and passive aggression. Many of the characters harbor resentment. We have agreed that resentment is of Odium. I've been wondering: What is it that makes our characters succumb to it, and what makes them able to fight Odium in this regard? I don't know. But I have some ideas. Resentment can come from many things, often from abuse or other situations where you have no choice. You are oppressed and helpless, and your only choice is to find a passive way to channel your aggression. Shallan HAS to do something to her mother and later her father. Killing her mother was an active act of self defence, but killing her father had a bit of passive aggression to it. Her chance of fighting her father directly and winning was like zero, even if the had been able to use her Blade. So she poisoned him and then strangled him when he was helpless. A very cowardly way to kill, you might say, but it's even more cowardly to refuse to do anything and then see your brothers tortured and killed. I think it is impossible to understand the mind of people who have suffered abuse like this during childhood, and how impossible it might seem for them to fight back, or do anything at all to protect themselves. As a child you are completely in the powers of the adult. You have no other choice than to use passive or indirect methods. So, Shallan has very good reasons why she ends up this passive when it comes to violence. And why she has to become very good at using indirect methods to do good. Many of the characters that turn out to be evil use their passiveness to do evil. Or they at least struggle with the idea of helping others. They want to help themselves. Often they struggle with jealousy. Let's look at some of them, both good and bad: Kaladin: Harbors resentment towards lighteyes because of what was done to him and his family. He was unable to do anything, because he was a child, Roshone had absolute power, and his father was too stubborn to move out of harm's way. It's natural to become resentful. But Kaladin never actually does something passive aggressive to others because of this resentment. He tries to help others to have the king killed, and that is very passive aggressive, but he changes in time and redeems himself. He actively fights it, he knows it is wrong. Even in his most depressive moments, he knows it is wrong. Moash: thinks that he is in his full right to be resentful. And he is the kind of man that uses his jealousy to justify his actions. Why shouldn't he be a lighteyes too? it's unfair that HE isn't a lighteyes. Kaladin refuses as long as possible to become lighteyed. He just wants to change the unfair system. Sadeas: Of the three friends Gavilar, Dalinar and Sadeas, the latter is the weakest, least powerful and least charming. He is last in everything, also last in charging into battle. But he is first in pillaging, beheading prisoners and raping unprotected women. He uses his passive aggressivenes to lie, spread rumors, hire assassins, or even get his wife to do that. I find it easy to believe that Sadeas is prone to jealousy, and that this feeling is the way in for Odium to control his resentment. Elhokar: The king is the jealous type. He his jealous of his father's memory, his uncle's competence, the heroic actions and position of Kaladin. And he is resentful for it. He has never been oppressed or abused as far as we know. He has the most powerful position in Roshar. And he is still resentful. You might say that his uncle de facto is more powerful, because he can take away Elhokar's power at a whim, but compared to Shallan's childhood that is nothing. She had to fear for her and her brothers' lives. He had to fear for his position. Still, Elhokar never digs up the ability to dig himself out of the self pity he has buried himself in. He tries at the end, though, but too little, too late. Jasnah: It seems to me that Jasnah harbors resentment for something done to her in her childhood. She was locked away, believed to be mad, perhaps because of her surgebinding abilities manifesting early? Jasnah never does _anything_ indirectly. Perhaps that is why she is loved so much by readers, even though she can be painfully direct and often callous. Jasnah and passive aggressiveness seems opposite values, but then her many assassins on retainer contracts come to mind. Perhaps intelligence operations like that can be counted as necessary for a government. Anyway, she never acts passive aggressively and she is never jealous or envious. The same can be said about Navani, Dalinar, Rock and Lopen. Teft: Had a terrible childhood where all the adults of his family and their friends actively tried to kill themselves, and when he reported them, they were executed. Still he is never passive aggressive towards others. Only against himself. He never seems envious or very aggressive against others, and likes to support others if he can. So, what do you think? Is envy and jealousy a part here? I really want to understand envy more. I find it hard to understand how people let that feeling ruin their lives.

Haha, well this is one of the things I love most with Sanderson, that he refrains from the soap opera conflicts that are so easy to imagine, and expects his characters to be grown ups in so many ways. But as you say, resentment is of Odium. And that is why I also often have concerns for Kaladin. He can be very resentful too, but not in the way that Moash does, luckily. It seems...

Thank you for this post. Very enlightening, and reminds me of a theme I figure Sanderson often comes back to: Passive aggressiveness and resentment. The villains in "Warbreaker" comes to my mind as the most passive aggressive plot I have ever read. Shallan definitely has issues with resentment, and she just stoves it away in some compartment of her mind. But things like that never stays completely hidden. Perhaps lying to youself like that is one of the most vile lies there is. Resentment destroys relationships, but it also harms yourself. Resentful people often end up destroyed by bitterness. I my real life, I have met passive aggressive people who changed almost over night when learning about the harms of what they were doing to themselves and others. Many passive people think they are very peaceful, and not aggressive, but their aggression just comes out in more indirect ways. And often, their aggression turns inward, towards themselves. I have also met many passive aggressive people who refuse to change. They really think their behavior is not their fault. They blame others for their feelings, and never realize that they can take control over their reactions and behavior, thus freeing themselves from their resentment. I agree, it will be most interesting to see where Shallan will go. I really hope we will get a lecture in "how to free yourself from your own resentment". Starring Shallan Davar.

I find it so interesting to see how many people hate Shallan's ability to suppress things she does not like, and the same people refuse to read the parts of the story that they do not like.

Thanks! Then I can put this out of my mind.

I am sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I could not find it. I have read several places in the SA books that Radiants use their safe hands, or left hands (I think I remember a man doing it) for extra powerful or difficult. surgebinder tasks. Do you know if this is significant?

Yes, but the organisation that was conquered by placing a woman of "our side" on the enemy top leader's chair in "Dune" was spread over so many planets that nobody has any idea how big it was. (Trying not to spoil too much for those who have not read all of that series.) When facing a very strong enemy organisation, resistance can seem very futile indeed, especially when you don't even know how strong or huge it is. But changing it from the inside may be possible if you can place a powerful and influential person inside it. And Shallan has shown that she is very influential ideed, at only 17, completely without any experience apart from her family and her books. As Shallan manages to change Vatha's gang without any experience at all, she might very well be able to turn the Ghostbloods into something radiant, or at least useful for them, with a little more training. And she seems to be able to do that training all by herself.

I'm sorry, I was not very precise when it comes to Dalinar. I agree that he sometimes uses spies or other undercover operations, but he hasn't got a specific organization that is set up for systematically mapping his enemies' operations and plans. And according to Shallan, he does not like "fooling people", so I guess he does not think the same way as she does. She intuitively knows how to blend in with entirely different people from herself, and to change her whole personality, even to that terrible lady of the Rockfall mansion. And she has just started, fumbling her way, exploring her abilities as she jumps from mortal danger to mortal danger. I agree that we have no idea how the Ghostbloods organisation works, nor if Shallan is so good that she is able to take over in any way. You never know with Sanderson, and that is most of the fun, isn't it? But I like to explore the extreme possibilities of a line of logic. Unless you try that, you never get the whole picture of what is possible. And I think Shallan shows all signs of being able to develop into something that powerful. - She is very young and inexperienced, hurt, and totally mangled psychologically, and still she has delivered remarkable results up to now. - As a trainer, I know how young, promising people can develop into very impressive athletes or powerful leaders. Even youths with difficult backgrounds, who really struggle and appear quite clumsy and rather painful to watch can surprise you. And Shallan has that kind of spark that I see in those youngsters who has become stars when they grow up. - We know that Mr Sanderson likes and is influenced by both the Wheel of TIme and Dune. In both of those series, we follow a woman that is trained by our protagonists who ends up as the leader of an enemy organisation, or at least a hugely powerful organisation that makes all kinds of trouble for our hero. So if Shallan ends up doing something similar, it will not be something new. On the other hand, Sanderson likes to be original, and often surprises us, and I love that, so something altogether different probably will happen. And I will welcome it.

Thank you guys! Being a Shallan is not always easy, so praise is always very welcome. I have to add a huge piece that I forgot in my first post. Her work as the intelligence officer for the Radiants. She is actually so undercover that nobody else knows, apart from her squires. Which may be a good idea, for we do not know who of the radiants is a traitor to the others, as the Diagram says. The most important thing for a general is to know one's enemies. Despite that, Dalinar never actually empoyed spies, as far as we know. The Alethi intelligence organization seems to have been Ialai Sadeas' network of spies, and also Jasnah's jumbled network of assassins and scholars all over the world. And Navani's cunning when it comes to court gossip and intrigues. But they have no one who can go out among the enemy's troops and literally be accepted as one of them, and perhaps even over time take over as their leader. Apart from the lightweaver. I think it is very likely that Shallan will end up as the leader of the Ghostbloods, and what an intelligence organisation Dalinar will have then! And wherever she actually ends up, her contact with them serves the Radiants very well, for they are extremely powerful and knowledgable. It is likely that we have no clue yet how far their knowledge and understanding of the Rosharan conflict extends. Because of Shallan's illusions and her ablility to use her Transformation abilities to change people, she is able to infiltrate whatever organisation she wants to. Also the singers, perhaps even the Fused. Imagine the power of this tool for Dalinar. He himself is unable to make use of anything that is undercover, he reacts strongly against anything that may fool people. Kaladin is the same, it is even difficult to make an illusion stick to him. Very honorable, but not useful if you really wish to find out what the enemy is up to. Also, in order to get someone over to your side, you need to understand them, maybe take their side a little, as Kaladin does with the singers. This almost breaks him. He cannot handle this confusing concept that the enemy might be good persons worthy of protecting, and he loses his direction. Shallan never had that kind of absolute direction. She sees the world in colorful diversity and variation. For what is a lie, and what is art? What is transformation or useful change? I think Shallan might be changing Mraize and Iyatil already, They are very impressed with her. I am looking very much forward to see what is happening there. Edit: My description here of the difficulties of meeting your friends as enemies in a battle is way too simplistic, and I apologize. But this topic will need another very interesting discussion to cover more decently. Another time.

I think the reason why so many dislike Shallan is that we get to follow her through her every struggle without seeing what she will become yet. It's always painful to struggle when you have the kind of background, disorders and at the same time responsibilities as she has. At the age of 17. If we had to go through everything that Dalinar did as a young man, through three huge books before we got to learn how all his struggles ended up in a complex, powerful and wise leader, we would have hated him as well. I just love how Sanderson forces us to live through some of the pain his characters have to go through, feeling the awkwardness, uncertainty, stupid choices and even how they at times are influenced by evil forces. And he often tells their story seen through unreliable eyes. Even Shallan's point of view is unreliable. She is a very harsh judge of herself. I think that Wit is the most reliable judge of her character. He is also a lightweaver, and understands the mind of an artist. Also, he is able to let her see her worth. For the first time. In the chapter "The girl who stood up". Shallan is the one who is subtly pushing everybody around her to become better persons, even though they don't realize it themselves. Even most readers fail to recognize her huge impact on the morale of the protagonists, and even on some of the villains that she fails to save. She does it through her art, or her "Lies" as more Honor influenced persons will call them. But she does not lie. She changes reality, just like good art sometimes does. I find it extremely interesting how she influences so many people and helps them become better persons. She even tries to influence Kaladin by pushing on his self centredness (if that is a word). I don't think she can help it, it is in her nature to be a mirror, one people can see themselves in, for better of for worse. Often, she lets them see a glorified version, like Elhokar, Bluth, Gaz or Vatha. Because they need it to see that they can change to the better. Kaladin does not need to see a glorified version of himself. He needs to see that he is extremely self centered, and that is causing a whole lot of trouble for him. Yes, he is a protector, and he is a very good person. But his self centeredness is in my opinion what is holding him back from swearing his next ideal. And Shallan is the only one who is instinctly seeing that, and trying to poke him out of it. She actually manages a little bit while in the chasms. He then sometimes shows a tiny little bit of self irony, which would be very healthy for him if he had managed to continue. It would in fact also help him when his depression tries to crush him. In order to change, one must first see that the image one has of oneself might be wrong. And that it is possible to change. Shallan is a powerful catalyst, and she is not aware of it herself. And we, as readers, only get her story told by her, which is not very reliable. Because her image of herself is wrong. She needs another lightweaver to see it. Wit. Here is a list of other characters Shallan influences for the better, and possibly saves: Adolin : gets to value his self more, and stops seeing himself as just a fop and a ladies man, but as a person with wits, heart and wisdom. Jasnah: is forced to see the world in a less absolute way. This might help her becoming more relaxed and obtain a little more inner peace. Tvlakv: He is still a jerk, but he became a more decent jerk for a short time at least. Who knows, perhaps it had some permanent effects? Bluth: Bluth actually redeemed himself before he died, because of Shallan's influence. Her "slaves": She saved them from slavery, and employed them, with the intent of helping them to become free men if they wish to. Vatha: He was a harsh leader of a deserter gang, possibly rapist and murderer, and she influences him to become a knight radiant. Gaz: He used to be a mean jerk, now he is trying all his best to be a good guy. Vatha's other gang members: A gang of strange low status weirdos that she never gives up. I wonder what they will become? Hopefully her squires. Artists may seem a bit weird to others. VERY weird to many, it seems. The members of Tyn's caravan: Well, she basically saves their lives. She literally saves lives all the time, and it is seldom appreciated by readers. I find it so strange. Her brothers: She saves their positions, their lives and their sanity on several occations. Often by subtly making them realize their own potential. Elhokar: He holds her drawing of him in his hand when he finally gets around to try to swear his first ideal. Kaladin never agreed to try to help Elhokar to become a better person, even when he was asked. Inadvertently he did anyway, by telling Elhokar that he was a bad king. Honesty was perhaps what the king first needed. But then he needed some inspiration. He got it from the artist. Kaladin: She saves Kaladin's life many times, often literally, but she also takes away some of his darkness when he his depressed, just like his brother the lightweaver also did. And she tries to poke him out of his self centered vicious circle, although it seems to not work. At least not yet. I must say that I very much look forward to see what Shallan will end up as, Might be awesome. And then we will have lived through the whole mess of becoming awesome. Because it always is a mess becoming larger than life.

My two favourite radiants are Dalinar and Shallan. Because they both struggle valiantly, trying to become better persons, despite their difficult pasts. They both try to be as honest and kind to others as they can, despite all kinds of difficulties and despite other people's deliberate wish to misunderstand and judge them. (And no, liespren do not like lies. They like metaphors, art, counter intelligence, and jokes) My least favourite among the ones we are supposed to like are Kaladin and Jasnah. Both think so extremely well of themselves, they are judgmental, have great difficulties in seeing their own faults, and can be extremely rude and unfeeling when talking to others. I know it is easy to judge differently if you follow the points of view of the characters literally. Shallan always judges herself very harshly when we see her point of view, and Kaladin is often very self rightous. It is easy to take Kaladin's side if you just listen to what they say about themselves. I hope he will change when swearing his next ideal. (And yes, I know that Shallan is teasing Kaladin incessantly with all her "insulting" jokes. I would have been sorely tempted as well, since he is so full of himself and without humour. You would want to try to pry his shell open one way or another.)

Wonderful suggestions, Toaster Retribution. I especially like Pattern to have a country. He is a favourite of mine. But let's discuss the Purelake. I wonder if there is anyone in that area who is different from the easy going Ishikk? Perhaps he is really the most active and outgoing of them all? I wonder why he is the one that became the contact for the 17th shard guys? The Purelake had grandiose castles in perhistoric times. What other wonders might they hide under their easy going surface? The Shin are the same. They hide a dangerous warrior culture under strict laws and stone shamanism, especially suppressing warriors and forbidding stepping on stone. That is: do not walk into other parts of Roshar where the natives should be allowed to live in peace. (We know that there has been shin invations into the east.) The Horneaters also try to sound less dangerous than they are, and specifically ranging warrior status below the statud of cooks. The Shin put warriors below everyone else. What if Shin, Horneaters and Purelakers all used to be awesome warriors, but at some point in time laid down their weapons, perhaps for the same reasons as the Radiants? What if these warrior nations could be reawakened when the singers and the humans finally unite to fight the real enemy, Odium? I feel that the main story has something of the same lines as the Wheel of Time, where our heroes gradually get into contact with nations, organisations and other powerful entities, wake them up or befriend them, and either unite with them or actually become their leaders, for finally to be able to lead all powers of the world together in the final battle for humanity. Or like the eorlingas, or Rohan people in the Lord of the Rings. Or the elves and dwarves. Unite them! Of course, since this is Sanderson, we will never know until the books are here, but it is interesting to speculate. Which nations and organisations have potential? Who has something that might develop into power in weird ways? And then, yes, I asked if we have seen any specific characters that might be candidates.

I am well aware that there are other countries and areas that I have not mentioned in my list. I tried to find out if there are talented and potentionally powerful people that we know of until now that are from other countries and areas than Alethkar. In order to unite the whole of Roshar, our heroes will need to ally with others. These people may not be restricted to the current leaders. We know that the story will continue over many more years, and the young people we have met until now will mature and get experience. If these talented people have a cultural background and important contacts in other countries, and at the same time are close friends with our heroes, it will be easier to connect and to communicate. That was the reason for my question.

Beautiful lies!

Hi! I am sorry if this is a worn out topic in the forum, but I did not seem to find anything about it. Please redirect me if I am mistaken. I am often thinking of how Dalinar will accomplish uniting the countries of Roshar, what I guess he will need to do in order to defeat Odium, of course in addition to uniting the knights, the highprinces and possibly the shards. We have already seen many different people from other countries that may or may not end up in powerful positions if this alliance is to be built. We have also met the present kings, queens and emperors of many countries, but I am not sure that all of those are very suited for leading their countries at war. We have also countries that are not yet in Dalinar's alliance, but we have important characters from said countries that could be, or become, very suited for the task. For Alethkar we have many suited leaders already. They just need to agree to cooperate. Perhaps Jasnah is the right person to force/persuade them to do so. For Jah Keved, we have none but Taravangian, and Dalinar would obviously need someone to take over once he wrestles the power from Mr T. Is Balat too crazy? Shallan is already busy as an intelligence agent and Radiant. Or will she continue into a more admistrative position, but with the knowledge and experience she has aquired? Or even a queen, as Jasnah? Jasnah proved that you can be both a Radiant and a regent. Have we come to know anyone else? Redin the Bastard? He seems like an interesting guy. Herdaz: The General with the handcuffs. The Lopen as a wild card. Shinovar: Szeth will clense Shinovar and find a leader he can trust. Will he become a leader, or will he be too busy radianting? Azir: Gawx will do just fine. He is developing very well as a young leader. Will Sigzil have role to play here? He is skilled at administration. Noura also seems like a skilled and wise administrator. Thaylenah: Queen Fen is perfect in my opinion. And with Vstim and Rysn on her team? Yeah. Even if Rysn should end up becoming a Radiant. Horneater Peaks: Rock is probably already the King of the Peaks. He might already be a prince of his Peak by heritage, but he has also said that the first horneater who wins Shards will become their king. Rock won two. He will become a fine king. Reshi Isles: We have met the King and the king's son of one of the isles. They seem like wise and smart people, and they are good friends with Vstim and Rysn. Iri? Do we know anyone else than Dalinar's brother-in-law? And he is an outcast. At least as far as we know. He could have gone back to reconcile with his family and country. What must Dalinar do to soften the Iriali? Give back Adolin's Plate? Might not be a very expensive offering, if Adolin continues communicating with his Blade. Tukar: How to heal a crazy herald? Purelake: Why have we met Ishikk? I can't be only because we needed to learn about the 17th shard and fish species in the Purelake? And of course we have the Singers. Venli, Rlain, and others. I wonder, they may also have candidates from different countries and cultures? Do we know anyone from other countries? Other suggestions or opinions?

Somehow I cannot let the feeling go, of Kaladin being very vulnerable when confronted with Odium's willingness to take away his pain. Kaladin is not even able to forgive himself for not being able to save everyone in the world. And he is certainly not willing to forgive anyone who has done anything to him or his family or friends ever. That is a very dangerous path to walk when Odium is about.

Thanks eveyone for your input. It seems there is no clear evidence that Navani is NOT able to revive the Sibling, and that is nice, then I can freely speculate in that direction. As well as ponder on the alternatives you all mention, which are also very interesting, like Rock or Rlain. I also believe that Sanderson might come up with something entirely different altogether, as is his habit. Another question though: All the strata in the tower of Urithiru, has someone somewhere given theories as to what they are or represent? To me is seems like they are like blood vessels, nerves and other organs of a body, and that the gems at the central column that Shallan freed of the Midnight Mother are somehow representative of a heart? It would be interesting to see a compilation of the listed properties (in the Ars Arcanum) of the materials that the strata are made of. I have tried to search to see if anyone has made such a list, perhaps you guys know if it had been made and posed somewhere? Edit: I just found an example. In chapter 109 of OB, Navani talks to Dalinar about the different strata of Urithiru. Then follows a discussion between them about which gemstone is use for what kind of soulcasting. Then Navani says: Garnet makes blood. A little later in the discussion, Navani adds: "The records below," Navani said, "speak of the tower as a living thing. With a heard of emerald and ruby, and now these veins of garnet". All this, and the continuous mentioning of the strata that especially Shallan observes, leads me to think that the tower is some kind of dead organism, or just slumbering. Perhaps a fabrial, perhaps the remnants of a spren, perhaps something in between.