Jenet

Great post, Starla, and I agree. One of the things I love with these books is that people can change. Some actually are changing a lot. And there is forgiveness to be had. But it seems there are those who can change and those who can't. Sadeas, for example. He got so many chances, and just pissed on all of them. So the author just says "good riddance" and kills him. Amaram is of the same calibre. And Moash. I am always sort of hoping everyone will turn out to be good in the end. But that is not going to happen. Szeth turned around, which I hoped he would. Taravangian turns to Odium. The only God Taravangian believed in was himself, and when he (or the diagram) fails, he turns to Odium instead, unable to believe anybody else has the capacity to win. Is there a pattern as to what kind of character that may change? All of Bridge Four have all kinds of "sins" to burden them down from before. Venli is obsessed with power, but is in the process of changing. Elhokar was egotistical and a coward, but changes a lot. Dalinar has great hopes for all of his possible resources. Amaram, Sadeas and Taravangian represent huge resources for the alliance against Odium, and I understand his insistence that he needs to try to get them into his alliance. But at the same time, it is so important to shake out all illoyal parts before this war really starts. I guess my crypticpspren is humming and having a nice time wondering what makes a good man or woman in the end. My nature is to want to save everyone. But as Kaladin, I need to realize it cannot be done. Some are beyond saving, but who? And why?

I am afraid I tend to agree with you.... Yikes..

Yup, and I can't resist the feeling that Sanderson just wrote these two characters in this way so we could compare them, and their characters.

Good point. So Kaladin is basically constructive, while Moash is destructive. Kaladin is internal locus, Moash is external locus Kaladin is blaming himself, Moash is blaming others They get more or less exactly the same chances, and they choose differently because of their different characters. I find this very interesting. Thanks for this discussion!

I love this topic, and I was pondering on it through the book and afterwards, thank you all for meaningful suggestions. My thoughts are: The windrunners are leaders. Leaders must first and foremost protect others, also the ones they don't like or hate. But what comes after that? When you are promoted? Then it is impossible to protect everyone personally. You must delegate. You must also make decisions that will lead to people getting killed because of your decision. You must make decicions like the one Amaram claimed he had made, doing something you hate, because it is for the greater good. I think perhaps the three first ideals are there to ensure that you only get leaders that are actually there to protect people. And so that when they are really promoted, and become officers, not just squad leaders, they wil not become like Amaram, but like Dalinar (the "modern day" version). But in order to become an officer, you cannot deal in details. You cannot save everyone personally. I feel that the ideal must be something that challenges your ability to protect from a larger perspective, and that you are able to let go of the small scale and embrace the larger one. Kaladin is very reluctant to accept the land that Dalinar tells him is his own to protect. He says he does not want that burden. I feel it is right to choose only that kind of leaders that think of power as a burden, and not something to long for. But they must be able to embrace the power. So, what is there in Kaladin that makes him detest being an officer. A lighteyes? Is it the fact that he needs to trust his own judgement? That he must make decicions that will end up in someone being killed? That he must choose, on a higher level. The ideal in itself need not mention all of this, just sort of rip apart the thing in you that stops you from embracing the power.

Tight-butt

As I am a riding teacher by profession and also instruct riders who are into fighting on horseback, I am naturally very interested in everything war horse. It makes me very happy to learn that the Rhyshadium are supported by spren! In every other fantasy book I have read that includes war horses, they have been described as at the same time majestic, big, fast and powerful. But that is physically not possible. Shadowfax in LOTR was larger than any other horse, but also faster. Sorry, but no. All large horses IRL are slow and not very athletic. So there is a big problem finding horses that both are able to carry a shardbearer, and at the same time be fast enough and agile enough to be of any use. Large horses would be too slow for moving straight forwards, and too clumsy to turn fast in close combat. Spren helping the horse to carry its own weight explains how Rhyshadium can do it anyway. Just as the enormous chasmfiends are able to turn extremely fast in close quarters, because of their spren, the Rhyshadium logically do the same. So, then I really hope for more riding scenes later, when the Radiants earn their Rhyshadium. But I hope the description of the riding training becomes more like real war horse training, and not like modern day pony school training, which Kaladin and Bridge 4 has to endure with Jenet. Not surprised Kaladin was bored to death and tried the horse with issues to get something more challenging. I guess Sanderson knows much more about the topic, I mean calling the riding instructor "Jenet", knowing that a Jennet was a type of light war horse in earlier times IRL. Of course, it's possible to train horses to be able to carry more weight, but not in the scale needed for carrying a shardbearer.

Yes, I loved that Kaladin didn't have to swear when he wasn't ready, and that others watched his back. Kaladin has been saving the day by swearing oaths in both previous books, and Sanderson is NOT that kind of guy who repeats himself too much, which I love. I also completely agree with your opinion on the kind of oaths we might expect for the two last ideals. I am very much looking forward to learning more about them.

Good point and I agree. One might think that Kaladin's parents have instilled this internal locus in him by giving him responsibility and letting him feel the consequences of this errors when he slips, instead of taking back the responsibility and scolding him whenever he doesn't live up to their expectations. We don't know much about Moash's grandparents, but they might perhaps have been the stereotypical grandparents that are loving but lenient, or unable to delegate responsibility?

I agree. I also think that Kaladin's well developed concience, which is also giving him his troublesome guilt feeling, is what saves him. I agree that his upbringing has helped developing this trait, but as far as we know, Moash's upbringing with his grand parents was also a good and loving one. But Moash soes not seem to have concience at all? His anger is not tempered by his concience. Why? And when I look at it that way, perhaps Kaladin's guilt feeling is not such a bad thing? It gives him depression and perhaps it is part of his inability to say the fourth ideal - for the time being. But it also helps him temper the anger that otherwise would have sent him down the same road as Moash. Perhaps all these things that break people are the same things that help them grow? And become worthy? (And yes we know that is how they become Radiant, but in real life as well) So: Why did Moash not have the same quality? Why doesn't he grow? He gets plenty of chances. He even gets his own potential "bridge crew". Exactly the same opportunities as Kaladin.

Kaladin and Moash come from similar backgrounds and as far as I can see they have similar temperaments, enough for Kaladin to consider Moash his only good friend at a point in time. They both grew up with loving relatives to take care of them, and lose loved ones because of the exact same blunder of Elhokar`s. Both feel hatred towards Elhokar because of this. What is it in their characters that they end up on different sides? Do we get answers to this question from the text, and/or can we speculate?

Thanks! I agree, also with the comparison to Rand al'Thor. What impresses me a great deal, is that this ideal is so difficult for Kaladin that he actually refuses to protect people he loves by refusing to swear the ideal. Syl says she understands. So, Kaladin risks that Adolin (acutely) and Dalinar and his soldiers on the other side of the Oathgate dies. As far as he knows at that moment, they will die unless he swears the oath. I think the ideal goes deep into the very reason behind Kaladins depression and guilt. And I don't necessarily think that he has other secrets that we have not heard of, which he may or may not have. But there may also be something in his character, his pride, that prevents him, something that he cannot see and get himself disentangled from. Isn't Navani teasing Dalinar somewhere because he is indulging in his guilt? You can actually be so obsessed with your guilt that you sort of refuse to let go of it, especially if you also suffer from a decent amount of pride. Which I think Kaladin does...

Hi! I am new to this forum, but have been a fan since The Way of Kings. I just finished Oathbringer, and it more than fulfilled my expectations. My reactions: I am always learning so much about myself when reading. I love to get surprised and intrigued by the characters and their development. Sometimes I guess what's coming, sometimes I am surprised, but I don't really care as long as the descriptions are so good that I literally cry, cheer or get goosebumps all over. I did that all the time when reading OB, perhaps even more than with the previous two. What impressed me most: 1. Kaladin: He knows what the words of his next ideal is, but he can't bring himself to say them, even though he knows he can save Adolin and all the others by doing it. That means this is a really, really difficult thing for him, and that these ideals are not for everyone to go through. I think this ideal has something to do with his (in)ability to forgive himself, to stop criticizing himself, to embrace his responsibility on a higher level in peace and serenity. Kaladin is so full of guilt feelings, and has many symptoms of a deep depression, and such a thing is not easy to just put aside by swearing that you will change. I have no idea how Sanderson will express this for Kaladin, but that is what I love to wait for. 2. Shallan and her creative way to cope with her insecurities. And how Wit and Adolin in different ways help her calm down and realize that she is good enough and that she can be everything that she wants and still be Shallan. As a teacher I often would have liked to let mye pupils try out different sides of themselves in the same way. It is much easier to try out different sides of your personality while in disguise. Friends and other people who know you, tend to preserve you in one role, and especially shy people do often not dare to challenge how other people see them. Renarin seems to feel the same. 3. Dalinar. All of it. His struggles with the thrill and the heart of the revel. I wonder if he was challenged by all of the unmade all his life. Surrounded by them just as in the vision. Dalinar is such a fantastic character, and the fact that he has gone through all that and still manages to be a good man makes me love the character even more. 4. Forgiveness! 5. How some "bad guys" turn around and join the good guys, and how others just lose it. Moash, Amaram, Sadeas and Taravangian. I had hopes for them, but I see how they never really did regret anything of the evil things they had done. And that is why there never was any hope for them. They never admit that some - or all - of their wrongdoings was their own fault. They blame others. Dalinar also blamed others in the beginning, but what changes everything is that he asks for forgiveness. He admits that it was his own fault. Even though he actually was under the influence of the unmade. I just love how he becomes really powerful because he has shown that he can handle that kind of power and the temptations that come with it. 6. Jasnah. Queen! Of course. She is the obvious heir, and very accomplished in so many areas, and the Alethi finally stops with their silly gender rubbish that has made all sorts of trouble for them. Dalinar learns to write! And is the author of the book! 7. Shallan uses her safehand to fight her first unmade. Is this a sign that there is special power in using your left hand? Especially for women? The Vorin church has been trying to hide a lot of what the Radiants could do. Are all these gender rules were made to prevent people from rediscovering their powers? 8. Bridge four. Skar teaching, Lopen just saying the ideal by telling one of his stories. Rock. His family and his shooting. And Teft. Goodness, Teft.. The diversity! 9. I love the way it seems they are going to upend eveything. The heralds, the Radiants, the Unmade, the spren, the countries, the listeners/humans, men/women, there are no fixed boxes any longer. And we believe that there is hope because the cards are shuffled anew. Because Talenel resisted. I love his reaction. He was happy! 10. Adolin. He is such a gem. I love that Brandon dares to describe such a hero. The anti-hero is more modern and common, but I like how Shallan settles with him anyway. He is not boring. He is just strong and genuine, and that is very difficult to describe in an interesting way. I think Sanderson manages just that. I have high hopes for his shardblade. I am looking forward to see what happens with Maya, and I don't want to speculate. It's going to be fun anyway.