PhineasGage

I feel stupid but you are obviously trying to make an important point here but I don't understand what it is (sorry) please explain to my poor befuddled brain? I would suggest that, perhaps, most do? It is, at least believable. The difference is that I don't have to watch/hear real life teenagers being sickening to each other. From this perspective alone I am glad there is a planned time-break to the beginning of book 4. They will likely have gotten over the worst of it. ....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

I am not sure I completely understand your point - perhaps I've misunderstood your entire premise and if so, I do apologise. I feel like the symmetry aspect of Roshar/the SA books is very important but symmetry does not inherently have to come from a direct link. In another thread, I commented on the symmetry of the Navani/Dalinar wedding vs the Adolin/Shallan wedding. These are analogues in that they are both weddings but they are not inherently related - one does not have to occur for the other one to exist. Whilst I do, of course, have my own pet theory, I agree it is full of suppositions and thus has few supporting facts. The issue here is that we also cannot assume a direct link between the Heralds and the Unmade. That doesn't mean there is no direct link, but at the same time, I do not think we've seen good evidence (nb WoB is not always canon - he occasionally makes mistakes/is unclear - only the books are canon because they get properly proofed in a way his verbal answers can't be) that there is any direct link. At this point - 2-3 years before the next book in the cycle supposition is necessary and makes us come up with all kinds of theories that have to rely on some supposition. Ideally though, it would be worth going through the books to see if we have any evidence again. The best evidence I could immediately think of for Heralds and unmade being linked would likely come from physical location on Roshar - but I'm not sure we know enough of either groups movement to be able to spot a pattern. So we (for example) know if there is an Unmade in Tukar (where Ishar is) or whether a Herald moves and Moelach follows? Perhaps you've got some different examples?

@SLNC I had missed the sexual element - although frankly I should be ashamed because that honestly seems to be the whole basis for their bloody relationship (thinking about how she persuades him that flying is the least of her concerns about a life mate). I mean, don't get me wrong, Flying probably should not be the first thing you look for in a partner, but perhaps, wanting to rip their clothes off shouldn't be either? Another thing I forgot to mention was that she is excited about the wedding. Dalinar is excited about the marriage. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but isn't the marriage the important bit? I mean a wedding is basically just an expensive party and an excuse for your friends to get drunk at your expense. I am strongly reminded of a Friends scene (showing my age) where Chandler says he doesnt want to spend all his money of the wedding because he wants to spend it on the marriage. (for the record - this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eaQem6kZk)

I love this idea bit I think it can go further. The surges are inherently affected by the resonance of those also used by the surgebinder. Not only does each surge have effects on all three realms, but each order will manifest their ability to affect each realm differently because of resonance. For example, lets look at Transformation because we've had some academic dicsussion of it between Shallan and Jasnah. So I completely agree with your premise on there but I want to suggest that we need to further subdivide the surge between the Lightweavers and Elsecaller, because neither uses the surge in a vacuum - it is always impacted by the other surge they have access to. I think it is important to acknowledge that whilst the outcome might be the same, the means by which the effect is achieved will likely be different. For example, Jasnah and Shallan discuss soulcasting from one element (air) to another (stone) towards the end of Part 5 after Jasnah collects Shallan from the field. She states you need to convince them in different ways - be rigid with air and command it, but be persuasive to stone (iirc). This is obviously true for Jasnah, but we have no evidence that Shallan would work in the same way. We have seen her obviously soulcast too infrequently and it is not clear that her method of persuasion when dealing with Stick was a failure because she was using the wrong method, because she was unpracticed, or because she held too little stormlight. I think this may be more clear when we look at manifestation. In the WoR prologue, Jasnah manifests part of the Kholinar palace in Shadesmar by commanding it. Shallan, on the other hand, seems to use a more persuasive tone when using manifestation. The end result is the same, but Shallan is instinctively less authoritative than Jasnah (either as a consequence of her personality or as a consequence of using illumination rather than transportation) and may result in slight differences between their effectiveness. Finally, I am unclear on how transformation of the spiritual realm would be possible for Jasnah - to me Shallan's "soul casting" (ie transforming a person's view of themself and aiming towards an ideal) is very much as reliant on her use of illumination as it is on her transformation. She uses "lies" (illusions) to highlight what a person is capable of being. Jasnah using transformation of the spiritual realm would likely be equally affected by her other surge (transportation) and thus I cannot see what the outcome could be. Another contrast we can see is between Truthwatchers and Lightweavers. Now unfortunately, because Renarin is not technically a proper Truthwtcher, we can't be sure that he uses his surges the way a "traditional" Truthwatcher might, but if we work with the idea that he uses the surges in a manner that is close enough to the traditional situation then we can hypothesize the following regarding illumination. So we see Shallan create illusions - both for herself and for others. Renarin has particular difficulty with this - he uses progression much more readily. (As a side note, it seems clear to be that each order has a primary and a secondary surge - ie one they use more easily than the other). That being said, he does create an illusion of images of the future that it appears only he can see. He also seems to be present at a great many moments when others are having small self-revelations and it is possible that he "sees" their truths as illusions that are only visible to him. Shallan uses illusions to transform people's opinions of themselves - she uses lies to impact her men and others multiple times. Renarin, on the other hand, clearly uses progression-impacted illusions to achieve the same end when he heals Adolin (who sees an idealised version of himself). This is interesting - Shallan uses lies and Renarin uses truth but both ultimately end up transforming people into better versions of themselves - or at least give them an ideal to work towards. So, these are, somewhat minor points I suppose, given that the outcome is the same, but on the other hand, journey before destination.

It may not be permanent - it appears that Jezrien's soul may have been trapped in the sapphire on the pommel of the knife Moash used. It looks like a mirror of the way the humans have trapped the Unmade in gems to me. If the Unmade can be released from them, perhaps the Heralds can too. It may not mean a physical rebirth of course, but he may at least be able to go to the spiritual realm.

I may have misunderstood, but I got the impression that the black smoky spren that stayed near Odium the whole time at the Battle of Thaylen City was likely Mishran? We know that not all the cognitive shadows from Braize have awakened yet and perhaps there are some specific requirements for Mishran to manifest fully?

Ok, so I agree with you on most of your post - as I too, don't see a specific reason to connect the Heralds (who weren't spren bonded) to be directly linked to the Unmade, but I do want to disagree on this point you made - Do we know that 9 is the number of Odium and therefore he made 9 Unmade, or has the number been ascribed to him by people on Roshar because he made 9 Unmade and had seemingly 9 orders of voidbinders? I don't remember any particular references to 9 being an unholy number on Sel for example - which is the only other world we've seen Odium's direct influence. This doesn't mean they are directly linked. I mean they are obviously linked on a minor level because they are on Roshar but that doesnt have to mean that they are direct correlates. Why not consider perhaps that the aim of the Heralds is to prevent a desolation, and the point of the Unmade is to start one? We don't know the exact mechanism of how desolations started - we know each time Herald agreed to start a desolation so that they could avoid the pain of their torture, but we don't know whether events on Roshar affected the way the torture happened. It is implied for example, that Ishar beieves that Surgebinders had a potentially causative role in desolations. Now WoB is not to trust anything a Herald says, but that doesn't mean that other things on Roshar can't have an impact - what if the amount of torture directly related to the number of souls bound on Braize for example- could something like Moelach be trapping souls as they leave the physical plane? We know he touches them, but don't know what effect that has. What if those cognitive shadows were trapped like the spren of the fused and this gradually led to worsening torture? Ok so I'm very much spitballing, but my point is that the Unmade and the Heralds can easily be analogous without having to be directly linked.

If it is Adonalsium, perhaps the "Unite them" voice Dalinar keeps hearing relates more to uniting the shards of Adonalsium than the smaller scale of uniting the splinters of Honor or the people of Roshar. Odium would no longer be a threat if the Intent was tempered by the Intents of the other Shards. Or at least that is implied by one of the letters in WoR.

I agree that this is strange, given that I would hypothesize that Cultivation would be better than Odium at fortelling. I mean, the whole basis of cultivating thins is that you predict how they will turn out in most circumstances. Perhaps she has trouble predicting major events that fundamentally impact progres - much like a farmer may choose to farm a specific crop each year - it usually works just fine because he can predict how the environment will work to help him, but if a disaster strikes (eg drought) the crops will fail. Perhaps Cultivation is better assuming normal situations - I'm guessing a desolation would not be included in that.

Good job - I think that is plenty to prove the idea the beyond reasonable doubt that our basis to assume she had progressed quite far as a child - I am not sure how relevant it is to the story now. She has repressed so much that she may never recover those memories - indeed Pattern says something about her needing to learn again if she can't remember how to surgebind fully in WoR. Repression may not be the best coping mechanism, but unless it gets out of hand, it can work to keep someone functioning. It isn't as inherently problematic as the Shallan's dissociation. Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! I agree completely with this - he wants to help Shallan and it isn't his fault if he actually can't. I am concerned that she will blame him though and he definitely doesn't deserve that. Empahasis mine: I agree it is much easier to lay down the burden of trying to change than accept the need to change. But this fundamentally breaks the "journey before destination" element of the oaths. I believe Dalinar points this out. Now I think Shallan does need a break, and I suspect the time-lapse will give her the necesary space - possibly book 4 as a whole will give her the space as well so I don't expect to see much development from her in the next book. On the other hand, just because it is Szeth and Eshonai's books does not mean she can't get much screen time. OB was Dalinar's book but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime regardless. Kaladin got a huge amount of cover in WoR and ob was his "mini-flashback" book (for want of a better term). I do not think Kaladin got much progression in Book 4, but he did make some serious strides - I mean, for one thing, he's almost at the 4th Ideal. His flashbacks in OB were actually the most important part of his development. It would be entirely reasonable (esp given the way Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other in other sections of the books) for Shallan to have a "slow-burn" progression with minor flashbacks, most likely in Book 4, so that she can start to get to the point where her final ideal becomes a real possibility in book 5. I posted some WoB from Reddit earlier and in that BS specifically states that he expects Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan to keep getting a good proportion of the coverage, their individual arcs seem to be so tied to each other and the direction of the series. Of all of the spren, the cryptics seem to be the most likely to accept oathbreaking (external to the Ideals of course) as long as it leads to self-awareness. I would be more inclined to worry that she would lose the trust of Dalinar and Kaladin because they and their spren cannot handle oathbreaking. Doom and gloom would get annoying but he is much lighter around Shallan. I agree with finding Adolin irritating. But then, I'm one of those people who is finds the idea of a partner who takes much longer than me to get ready really annoying. Its a good device to give humourous moments to the books, but living with it would get very old very quickly imo. I agree fully with this. Mirroring is a major part of the books - symmettry is vitally important on Roshar and the SA books all have massive elements of this throughout them. If you look at a compare/contrast of the Dalinar/Navani vs Adoin/Shallan wedding the contrasts are striking - Shallan even points some of this out. 1) Speed: Navani and Dalinar spend ages in an unrecognised but committed relationship. They rush the formal ceremony associated with Vorin weddings because, in a way, it is the least important bit to them - they are already committed. The words, whilst important to both of them, are essentially something they were already living. Contrast this with Adolin/Shallan; they are in a formal but uncommitted relationship for 99% of the time they have known each other (I know the causal is less official than a full betrothal but it does lend a great deal of structure). Once the decision is made to marry, they rush the time to get to the "main event" of the wedding but take a huge amount of time to actually do the ceremony. The ceremony is, in some way, more important than the entering into the full betrothal. 2) The ceremony itself; Firstly, we, as the reader, see Navani/Dalinar's wedding. It is important from Dalinar's perspective to narrate it. On the other hand, we only see Shallan's buildup. I know it is Dalinar's book, but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime elsewhere - but this bit is glossed over. Secondly, Navani and Dalinar have a small, private wedding - only the most important people to them are invited. Now I know some of this is political/religious in nature because of the condemnation of their marriage by the Vorin church, but some of it is because they only see the need to have those they love there for this important moment in their lives. the Adolin/Shallan wedding, in comparison is this major "royal wedding" where all the great and the good are invited - full of pomp and circumstance. They are required to go through all kinds of rituals and things before-hand. We don't know if Dalinar and Navani do this to the same extent- because from Dalinar's perspective those are much less important than the wedding itself. Shallan, on the other only shows the bit where she is alone. 3) The glyphwards; I don't think we can be sure that Navani burned a glyphward prior to marrying Dalinar, but can anyone really imagine that she didn't? Navani is religious, devout and a genuine believer - despite marrying a confirmed heretic. Shallan, in contrast, never gets round to burning a glyphward before she leaves her chamber - she burns Mraize's letter instead. She seems to think Shallan is religious but we see very little actual evidence of this. The first thing we see Navani do when she thinks Dalinar is dead after Sadeas' betrayal is paint and burn a giant glyphward. How many do we see Shallan actually burn throughout the books? She says she should but she doesn't actually do that many from what I recall, and at a lifechanging moment, she neglects to do so. 4) Colours - ok so i've addressed this before but Navani wears "the traditional red", whereas Shallan wears "sapphire". Now even if we just assume this is simply blue because of the Kholin element, it isn't traditional otherwise although the rest of the ceremony seems to be following strictly to the traditional path of a Vorin ceremony. It's a minor point but very visual, appropriately for a lightweaver I suppose 5) Emotions. Dalinar feels nervous and is practically shaking. Shallan goes from feeling annoyed, tired, stressed, and disgruntled and put upon to suddenly feeling bright, cheerful and happy.She doesn't mention nerves - although we see her get nervous in loads of other situations - sometime without needs. She goes out of her solitude "to celebrate herself" - Dalinar in contrast only achieves proper joy once the wedding is complete - He cannot quite let himself believe it because it was something "he hadn't even allowed himself to dream". 6) Gifts. This takes a while in the run-up to Shallan's wedding and we see several gifts. Navani and Dalinar skip the gift giving - it is explicitly stated that they insist no gifts were needed. Now again, some of this is political but it also shows that Navani and Dalinar need no gifts because they are getting each other. Shallan might have found the pre-wedding gift giving ceremony a trial, but it seems to be because she doesn't feel worthy to have the attention, not because she cannot wait for for the actual wedding to Adolin. It is these kinds of reverse symmetry elements that I truly love about Sanderson's writing, and why, despite feeling the end of OB (from the Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan perspective) was lacklustre, that I will continue to read his books. Now, obviously, until the front 5 are finished, this symmetry may indicate less than I currently believe, but for the time being, I am very prepared to look for symmetry in the books because these are the kind of devices that Sanderson loves to use. On an unrelated note, I do aologise for continually writing epic length posts - I feel like I am taking over this thread sorry.

Now I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am going to play devil's advocate. It is possible to foresee things without "seeing the future". If you have enough information, you can predict future outcomes. For example, if a Truthwatcher saw the truth of the current state of the division of the KR and understood the truth of Honour "changing" and knew the truth that surgebinding had effectively destroyed the previous world the human's had lived on, and knew the humans were invaders etc etc etc It is not so hard a leap to see that the decline of the KR was, basically, inevitable at that point. Indeed, a person would remember if they correctly predicted something, but forget if they didn't. I am not sure that this must make us assume that the Truthwatchers had been corrupted - it seems equally possible that they weren't in my mind.

I do see what you mean. I am still assuming that these will possibly be covered in later books (perhaps hoping is a better word than assuming!). I mean, isn't Renarin meant to be a main PoV in the back 5? I can see the reveal coming at him even that late but it needs to be put in now or readers would be like "Why didn't Dalinar mention this seriously major thing in his life?" I am more inclined to assume the Helaran issue is coming sooner than that because it seems like Shallan has deliberately suppressed thoughts of it. Indeed she hardly has any one-on-one time with Kaladin, and she bottles up when they get too close to why her suppressing memories is more dangerous even that how he treats himself when he fails.

@Mondaysjelly you are very welcome This is a very good point - is she only worried about Adolin or does she worry about letting others see Veil/Radiant? If it is only Adolin, it supports a long standing Shadolin setup, if not, but never woories about Kaladin in the same way then it supports Shalladin. Any one got any answers for me? Pretty please? I agree regarding Adolin. To be fair, neither he nor Kaladin seem to get in a gripe with each other over this at all. All the conflict is within Shallan. Agreed. We have too little info to judge an exact date - and she may not have been surgebinding that long before her mother attacked her but she must have sworn at least the 2nd ideal. There is too much evidence that KR can't get their shardblade after only 1 ideal - but we don't know when light weavers get it. Shallan only awakened Pattern when she hit level 3 so I think it is fair to presume she probably was level 2 when she killed her mother. @kari-no-sugata I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one I see Wit as saying that Shallan created the personas as versions of herself. She sees them as separate. I think we may be talking slightly at cross purposes though so I'll to clarify my position. Persona is not really the right word for how I see Shallan acting. Alternative personality is a better way to describe how she treats them. I think she is seeing them as separate and distinct individuals. This, in my view is not what Wit is advising. He says she needs to accept "you being you" - i.e. accept the alters are Shallan and she needs to merge them back with her primary personality. A persona is effectively a mask - it is more of an act and is done consciously. We all have personas as part of normal functioning - most people act slightly differently at work than when out with friends, but they still have the same personality. Shallan is not acting consciously in my view. She can switch consciously but does not truly control the situation. She is dissociating I believe, switching from a personality she believes cannot cope, to one she has created that she thinks can. These are not true personalities because they are fragments of the whole. A persona has all the traits but chooses to display them differently according to the situation. This is the most important point. despite the more upbeat moment as Shallan goes to get married, she doesn't seem to have accepted this. I am sure this is going to be her final truth, or at least part of it. If she can accept it, then she'll hit level 5, but it is incredibly difficult to do. There is a reason people with DID spend years in therapy.

I find myself wanting to protect my theory, even though I am fully aware of its flaws! Oh well, here we go; 1) the Mythica is new and admits to working with limited knowledge so I am happy to allow it to have mistakes. I mean, She specifically names 8 spren buts states that there should be 9. As an in world book, some of the information will be wrong/misleading - i'm choosing it to be this bit 2) I am a firm believer that spren are capable of change - it just takes longer than humans and is the result of what I would call cognitive "pressure" on them - ie expectations eventually result in slow changes occuring to spren over time. 3) It may not have expanded their powers, more.... the powers manifest differently because of specific threads being cut. Like if you have a complex lattice work of string but make specific cuts you will change the overall appearance of the lattice - or destroy it completely. 4) I was under the impression that the Sibling was a spren of both Honor and Cultivation, it would be sibling to both the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. I do not think that the Bondsmiths would bind a spren aligned to Odium. I have no specific evidence of this except one of the ancient radiants called it "sweet sibling" in one of the epilogues. I think it was the spren of Urithiru. 5) If Odium could destroy spren so easily, why has he not destroyed the Stormfather or Nightwatcher? He still has to contend with Cultivation. And I am suggesting the Unmade would have been while Honor was still alive. Odium is powerful, but not that powerful.

You are exactly right: Note this was after he'd finished writing OB so this seems a reasonable assumption to be working on.

I see your point but would like to point out that illusions are inherently dangerous, without bringing the personas into it. Part of the danger comes from the belief that they are innocuous. Let me give you an example - it's used in The Black Magician Trilogy by Trudi Canavan - well worth the read btw if you haven't read it! The story revolves around 2 brothers who end up fighting - one creates an illusion of a boulder falling. Behind it, he has a real boulder fall. The second brother dismisses the illusory boulder as the illusion it is but fails to realise there is a real boulder behind it so it lands on him and he is killed. The first brother is grief-stricken etc etc - read the book if you want more details lol The point is, that illusions make you see things differently and may, by giving you false information, make you make bad decisions. Now you could argue that the danger is to others than the lightweaver - but honestly, the first brother in the story above has only a Pyrrhic victory. He is harmed by his own illusion as well. On top of that, imagine knowing the things you are seeing could very well simply be an illusion. It would be terrible - could you ever trust your own senses? They aren't alternate personalities. Shai keeps her personality - essence marks have to be believable to hold - that's the whole premise of the story! She cannot make her self be anyone she wants, she is still essentially herself, it is the "trimmings" of her story that are altered only - she has learned to curb impulses differently, but that doesn't mean those impulses aren't there. It looks like more because she changes things like her upbringing in dramatic ways - but the key is that they are ALL Shai as she would have been had her circumstances had been different. They aren't different people. For all but one of her essence marks she still even remembers that it is a fake identity. She knows what her real autobiography is, even tho she feels like she can remember the false memories. If changing one's personality was easy, she wouldn't have had to get incredible detail on the Emperor that she needs to soul forge him. Even in his mindless state, his spiritual ideal would still eventually reject the forgery if it didn't match closely enough. On top of that, Shai has to know her own personality intimately (ie be incredibly self aware) to create forgeries of her own soul. It took her years. And even then none of her forgeries hold for longer than about a day - she even says that if she eventually uses her final essence mark she's written in a need to stamp herself every day. If she tried to change her personality too much I think it wouldn't take at all. I do agree with you here. I think it depends on how the other person views the situation. Now that Shallan is out of the picture (at least for a while) I personally am thinking an Edgedancer type (not Lift, obviously) would work - the orders complement one another, and the whole listening thing plus remembering the forgotten is something I could see Kaladin valuing. Plus the extra healing as an adjunct to Bridge 4 (not under his command, but to the side) would be handy on all sorts of levels. I may have to go full fanfic on that. I agree, though it annoys me. No-one should think their purpose is to be the perfect spouse. Argh, it really gets my inner feminist boiling. Marriage is all well and good, but only when as many male characters are expected to go and be "perfect husbands" as female characters get landed with the "perfect wife" purpose will I be at least able to tolerate the idea that the purpose in anyone's life should be getting married. Be the best partner you can be, but seriously, get a better purpose! It annoyes me as well because we see Navani chase Dalinar, but her purpose is understanding fabrials. Jasnah is seemingly planning on remaining single, and her purpose is to understand the truth of history. Why does poor Shallan get lumped with this.

I may have misunderstood something very fundamental here, and if so I apologise but here is my take; The Unmade were "made then unmade" iirc. I would posit that they were spren made by Honor/Cultivation prior to the arrival of Odium. At some point, Odium captured/beguiled them to join his side and he "unmade" them. That is, he took something fundamental from them that made them what they were. It would be unlikely that modern Rosharans would have a good understanding of the original spren if this is the case because they barely remember/understand the Unmade as they are now. Hypothetically, the spren would likely be intellingent spren - like those that form the Nahel bond, and thus have specific traits that Odium could manipulate to his own ends. By taking a specific piece from each one, he could control them. It seems reasonable that Odium creates very little (if anything at all) - after all he is the void - he swallows things whole, I think he can manipulate by cutting specific threads but probably not create truly. This might then explain why there are 9 - the nahel-bonded spren of most of the orders were fairly numerous prior to the recreance, but one order had specific spen - i.e the bonsmiths. Perhaps appropriate spren were simply not available to Odium, but also, the bondsmiths seem to be exceedingly close to the Intent of Honour so the spren associated with that order would be less likely to be able to be broken by Odium in the same way. Now, I'm not suggesting a timeline for when this might have happened - indeed the timeline of Roshar prior to the Hierocracy seems pretty broken - but hypothetically it could have happened prior to the formation of the KR - and may have been the trigger for spren deciding to bond humans - it may even been a means of trying to protect themselves. The reason I wondered this is because the Unmade do have a strange symmetry with the orders/heralds and heir attributes and goals. For example, Re-Shephir feel almost light-weaver-ish to me - she mimics with illusions. Moelach strikes me as being somewhat akin to the Truthwatchers in that I am reasonably sure that uncorrupted Truthwatchers get visions a bit like Renarinn, but that they don't see the future in the way that Moelach and Renarin do. Sja-anat is able to manipulate the spren of the Oathgates, which feels elsecaller-like (perhaps willshaper but we havent seen enough of what they can do) and I feel that Bo-Ado-Mishram is rather windrunner like. I fully admit that this is by no means a complete hypothesis as I cannot see direct parallels for the Heart of the Revel or Nergaoul. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the Heraldic failure theory though, After one failure, wouldnt they have tried to find another way? Even a single Unmade is a serious problem.

I am interested to see how her brothers react to her - she has grown up a huge amount but also changed a great deal. They will likely have a better idea of her full personality and may be very upset if they encounter any of her alts. How will they manage "meeting" Veil or Radiant? Especially if they see traits that they specifically associate with Shallan.

(Emphasis mine) Storms I got shivers just reading this. This is exactly my sentiment too. Think about how often her brothers say things like "when did you get so clever" etc. I have finally managed to go through @kari-no-sugata's very thought provoking piece and I made loads of notes however rather than addressing each point I'd like to highlight the major differences that seem to have arisen, the major one being whether Shallan is inherently separate from Veil and Radiant or not. This seems to be something that is developing as a divide (appropriately I suppose) between those who feel Shallan has 1) made the right choice, and 2) that she is getting better from those of us who feel the opposite. Both sides are somewhat using the evidence to support their side of the argument, which is perfectly understandable. As is likely to be clear to anyone who has read this thread, I am firmly in the Shallan is getting worse camp. I also happen to feel she made the wrong choice. Not by choosing Adolin over Kaladin (although frankly I find Adolin completely bland as a potential love interest for anyone, let alone Shallan) but by choosing anyone but herself at all. I think this therefore impacts hugely on my attitudes towards @kari-no-sugata's comment above, because we disagree on this fundamental point. Whilst the comment was well sourced, well thought out and well organised, I'm afraid to say I could agree with very little of it in principle, despite seeing the value of each argument. I believe @SLNC put many of my thoughts down in a more succinct manner than I could so I would definitely refer to that. There are a couple of areas I would like to comment on though; I disagree. I also personally dislike the idea of being "differently normal". "Normal" is a huge breadth of variation in human behaviour, that does not mean that things that indicate poor mental health should be normalised. They need to be treated with respect and dignity but just because 1 in 3 people get depression at some point during their lives mean we should accept that depression is "normal". Trust me, as a sufferer with occasional severe bouts, it most definitely is not. I don't want people to treat me like I'm made of glass but neither do I want people to think "Oh that's just PhineasGage going being depressed again". I may have some slight personal issues on this so sorry for my brief, if rather violent rant. It's not meant to be a criticism of your argument so much as the wording. In terms of arguing against the statement you made however, I disagree about it being a Lightweaver trait. Do we really think that Wit will start manifesting different personas? That we'll no longer be able to recognise him as he progresses along the paths of the Lightweavers? I for one can't see that happening. Hoid, for all his faults, is self aware. He will, like all people, be lying to himself, so I am sure there is plenty of room for progression but I do not think we'll see him shatter like Shallan has. Additionally, Shallan has been more broken than anyone else in the series. Not only is it clear that her bond occurred when she was a child (she was attacked by her mother because she was a surgebinder) but that there must therefore have been trauma before that for her to become broken enough to have attracted Pattern in the first place. She then killed him - almost destroying herself in the process. Indeed, she is dissociating from the very earliest memories we see in her flashbacks (losing track of time) and it is pretty clear that she regularly loses time (not loses track, I mean she seems to literally black out and timelapse) in both tWoK and WoR. She also does it in OB, but has found that splitting her personality is a more beneficial/;less noticeable way of dissociating herself, and the lightweaving is helping her make it more convincing. Indeed, I am concerned that she may have been doing a degree of soulcasting to herself in order to manufacture the divisions in her mind. If I'm right (and I hope I'm not) then she may never recover. I can see her using masks (there's a reason the mask is one of Shallash's icons) for the rest of her life, but a mask is not a dissociative personality that views itself as a separate entity. A mask allows people to act differently to how they might normally, but, crucially, it does not allow you to act outside of your personality. It merely allows aspects of your character to manifest that you normally keep under control eg for social/cultural reasons. For example, A person wearing a mask may feel more confident to approach someone they fancy than they would normally, because they know that any consequences will not fall on them when they take the mask off. This is normal - we all have situations in which we feel more, or less comfortable, masks often allow us to make uncomfortable situations to feel more comfortable. We all feel more confident in more comfortable surroundings. And in turn, if we feel confident, then the situation becomes more comfortable. But we can all take the mask off. Shallan isn't wearing masks anymore though, she is dissociating. I think this becomes more obvious if we look through some situations Shallan finds herself in. Lets look at tWoK. Without obvious multiple personas (although it can easily be argued that we have never seen the "full Shallan") she manages to get from Jah Keved to Kharbranth and become the ward of one of the most powerful women in the world. She manages the big and the small picture - she must have had to interact with all kinds of people as she gets off at each port to chase Jasnah and clearly does so with no particular issue (which is obvious because otherwise it would have been worth writing about in tWoK). She negotiates for passage - albeit with a captain she knows quite well by the end, and gets used to the gentle flirting of the sailors! When she meets Jasnah she has the guts to essentially argue with Jasnah to gain a position as ward. That's amazing. And she did it on her own. This, however seems to have fallen apart by OB - indeed there is a section where while she is Veil, she thinks that Veil is better at dealing with the day to day stuff and that Shallan was fine with the big picture or tiny details but not so good with the middle ground. Seriously? She managed to con her way into joining Sebarial's household. And whilst she used some lightweaving to give herself a mask (for confidence) she was definitely Shallan then. That was something she'd had to come up with on the fly - she couldnt have planned it completely beforehand. Its a huge risk, but she takes it anyway. That isn't something we see in OB. She dissociates every time there is risk - usually falling back on Radiant or Veil to allow her to hide. I ultimately put this down to the problem with having to acknowledge her mother's death. It was, in some ways, three truths in one, although it clearly only counted as one truth from a progression perspective. Not only did she have to acknowledge that she killed her mother (and could therefore be blamed for the fall of her father) but also that her own mother had tried to kill her. That is not something you come to terms with quickly. She then has too much put on her plate too quickly because she has no real confidante. She learns that she can no longer just stop thinking about it - a habit she had formed and used in the past, so she finds another way - splitting herself off in terms of her personality. Now I do think that Light-weaving has a role here because it certainly helps her feel like different people because she gets treated differently when she looks different. That reinforces the idea of being different people rather than a single person. This , in turn, I believe relates to the truth she needs to speak. Wit has, I think, already told her what it is. But the words don't matter, you need to believe them. And I think Shallan is a long way from that. In fact, of any of our "prime" radiants I would be least surprised if Shallan never reaches the 5th Ideal, because in order to do that she will need to confront so much pain and I honestly don't know if she will manage it. And if she doesn't, I don't think anyone could blame her. I believe that this is where her relationship with Adolin becomes of vital importance. Will he ultimately help or hinder her to reconstruct her full personality? Time will tell, but in my opinion, the signs are not promising.

Wow guys and gals. I go away for a day and this thread exploded. So much to catch up on Anyway I'd like to add my thoughts and comments. Mainly because I can, so I'm going to address comments I have feelings on since I last posted (yesterday!) except @kari-no-sugata 's massive and deeply thought out treatise on OB because honestly I feel it needs a longer sit down and thought process put in before I even begin to comment on it. So then, here we go! Awesome, thank you for this - I forgot to thank you before so apologies for that but this, despite kiling a pet theory, was very useful to know Fab, thank you. I love having this kind of data available to me to reference so this is very useful to have. Greatly appreciated. I see what you mean but I have to disagree with you a little for a couple of reasons. Firstly, as a person who presumably believes a single omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, he is doing a great job of writing an entire universe that does not seem to have any evidence of a specific analogue. He has multiple characters taking on the roles of "god" or "gods" in their specific locales - eg Honor and Cultivation, but even Adonalsium may not have been "God" as an analogue given how Wit seems to have regarded him/her/it. I seem to remember that he felt uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality in the past, but now has an openly gay couple in his secondary characters. I would like to think that if he wants his children to be proud it would be because he addresses multiple, potentially difficult situations that encompass the genuine difficulties that come with simply being human. People deal with all kinds of problems every day, and the best writers humanise their characters by making them face ordinary problems as deal (or not) with them, even if the environment they are in is unusual. I do agree that adultery seems unlikely in the Shadolin case, but not because he won't write it. He's already hinted at the possibility of something like that between Navani and Gavilar. I think if there are to be rifts between Adolin and Shallan it will be because of inherent flaws within their relationship, not because of a 3rd person. Those flaws would likely manifest themselves before adultery even became a possibility. He doesnt mind killing main characters. He killed off Vin and Elend. He killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker. He killed off Kelsier and quite alot of his crew in the Mistborn trilogy. And no, Kelsier was dead for the purposes of that story so I'm not going to allow his Resurrection to be considered as an out here. The characters in that story thought he was dead and had to get on with it. We only found out he hadnt passed on long after the trilogy was completed. Hell, Eshonai is dead, she's pretty main and is possibly the flashback candidate for book 5. Adolin dying is definitely a possibility. Honestly, I don't want him to but if he has to I'd rather he died on the right side than accidentally goes all Odium on us. You don't have to. I think we as a thread are oversimplifying the triangle aspect. This never was a true love triangle because the conflict lay within Shallan, not between her two potential love interests. This may continue despite the marriage. Indeed Kaladin is certain to step back now - more than he already had (he had gone out of way to be a bit standoffish I think during OB) so there will be no conflict between Adolin and Kaladin. And Adolin would have done the same if Kaladin had been chosen. That doesnt mean there wont be development in the relationships. Indeed if there isn't then Sanderson isn't the writer we all think he is. This arc is complete, but realistically after a year of marriage (given that book is rumoured to be set 1 year after the end of OB) Shallan and Adolin will have got over the honeymoon period and hopefully be less saccharine. The interesting part will be finding out if they actually have anything in common. This is so important. Kaladin doesn't "recognise" Shallan because he never acknowledges that Veil and Radiant aren't Shallan. Because, of course, they are. I am also very worried about Shallan's progression. Indeed I suspect she will struggle as others progress around her and she stays static. She is not likely to take these well. Pattern will want her to uncover truths but whilst she is able to function adequately I am not sure that he will push her further - particularly if she is seemingly happy, because she doesnt need plate to be a functional KR if all she ends up doing is Kholin accounts, learning with Jasnah and working the oathgates. Jasnah will likely try to push her a bit but she also has other concerns now that she is queen. I completely agree. Men have a tendency to step back so as not to push in on someone else's 'territory'. Not a great use of the word but certainly something I've encountered. A married woman is a complete no go area for Kaladin. He's withdrawing, and in fact has never really opened himself up to the possibility of Shallan because she was always betrothed to Adolin. Indeed it is Syl's belief that the betrothal was less important. Kal is only going to get stricter with himself now they are actually married. This is exactly how I felt after my first read-through. I felt much better after my second, but still somewhat let down. I have a 58 page essay I wrote (I have no life) that delves into the evidence for Shalladin vs Shadolin in WoR that I used to crystallise my feelings and is the reason I ended up on the Shalladin ship. As I was reading (and re-reading for that matter) I still saw more Shalladin that Shadolin but I'm definitely going to have to go back and reassess. When I'm less annoyed I wish to draw attention to Wit's epilogue ; "All great art is hated". Oh my god, I cannot even..... the Apollo/Starbuck stryline has got to be one of the most haunting and depressing story arcs I've ever seen. Though, to be fair, I think it happened in part because the writers didn't have a plan for the entire storyline, they made it up as they went to quite an extent. They didnt want to lose the 'will they? won't they?' element so just kept dragging it on. I understand that BS has a pretty detailed plan for Stormlight so hopefully that isn't going to be an issue here, even if he hasnt fully pinned down the specific reltionship arcs for each character.

This this this this this. Did I mention this? I would be totally in the Shadolin ship if this were true. I am still not sure why the Shadolin ship is bigger/noisier - I mean Adolin is great but deserves to be treated better than Shallan sometimes does. She can be a bit patronising to him and whilst he may lack education is some areas and be "mentally direct" he is not a fool. I appreciate that people want to see him happy, but does it have to be Shallan. This, I suppose is true of Kaladin as well. If the Shalladin thing is off I at least hope he writes equally beautiful sequences for Kaladin + X in the future. I want that depth of feeling. Im prepared to assume it is all good writing and deliberate. We've still got 2 books to go in this arc, notwithstanding the possibility of some stories continuing into the back 5. If Shallan/Adolin get some well written sequences, I'll be jumping ship. I cannot believe that he would pander to the crowd though, he'd lose so much integrity as an author. Plus he'd annoy loads of people, even Shadolin fans because so much time was given in the books towards pushing/foreshadowing Shalladin.

I am not convinced he even failed to be honest. Doesnt the spren that is talking to / guiding Venli (its name is Umli i think?) say it escaped. I think that implies it got through despite Taln holding and that he says he thinks he is late (in WoK) when arrives at Kholinar because he didnt think she should be here. He had the words (he thinks something about them never having been his before) so he must assume he has been broken but I'm not completely convinced that he actually did. What if the spren found away around the weakening Oathpact? That seems at least as likely as him failing. And that only makes him even more awesome.

I read this as Kaladin getting mildly frustrated by her tendency to make light of situations - I think he and Jasnah likely share the opinion that wit and humour are best used both in moderation rather than just saying the first vaguely clever thing that comes to mind. He is, like @SLNC points out, quite happy to banter when it is either necessary - as in the above mentioned scene, or when it is genuinely funny. Shallan is generally funnier (imo) when she is relaxed. Her sense of humour is forced when she's stressed. I think Kaladin might be picking up on this. He remarks something about her trying too hard when they are in the chasms together in WoR. On top of that, Kaladin is not in the mood to joke around for much (if any) of part 4 - he's worried about the people he left behind in Kholinar, he's worried about Dalinar, he's worried about Syl, he's worried about being in Shadesmar, he's worried about the Fused that are chasing them, the list goes on. He is more likely to manage humour only when he in a good/relaxed mood, or when someone he cares about really needs him to. We regularly see him force a smile for members of bridge four. I still want this. BS said he likes conflict in relationships - I think he meant that he doesnt just want all rainbows and cake, not angry/hateful actions as part of relationships. I think Shallan (when she gets her issues sorted out) is a better match with Kaladin than Adolin and I'd hate her to lose respect for her life partner because of a silly decision made in her teens. I think it would be very interesting to get more info on why Navani chose Gavilar despite it being pretty obvious that she had a thing for Dalinar from his flashbacks (at least I thought so). I know she said she found Dalinar too intense, and certainly Shallan has thought the same thing about Kaladin but I would love to get a deeper read on the Navani/Dalinar/Gavilar situation. As very much a side issue, has anyone read anything about the frankly odd situation that Kaladin's name not only sounds light-eyed but also fits the Kholin pattern. I was looking through and he seems to look nothing like his father Lirin. I had a mild pet theory that I'd never bothered researching before because I thought something might come out in OB if I was right. It is a theory that Kaladin is actually the illegitimate son of Gavilar. Its based on no real evidence beyond a tendency for Kaladin to be treated like family by the Kholin house (esp Dalinar, who is frequently "paternal" towards him), Zahel comparing him to Adolin, Wit comparing him to Dalinar, and a scene where Shallan says something like "At least I know my parentage" to him. If anyone knows about WoB or other source that addresses this i'd be most grateful.

I personally want Kaladin to pair up with someone. Not because I think it is necessary for a character arc, but because I think it is "normal". Dalinar is basically Honor at this moment - or something like that, and he is paired off with Navani. Storms, even Honor had a thing with Cultivation. It looks like Shallash was paired with Taln - or I might be going too far with that, and obviously Jezrien had a SO at some point because he had a daughter who it looks like he was close to. Why should Kaladin be the only one standing apart doing his "sentinel thing". I think this is just Shallan trying to convince herself yet again that Adolin is the better bet. I don't mind if she genuinely thinks he is, but I get the feeling she is trying too hard to convince herself of that. The lady doth protest to much.....? And before anyone mentions Jasnah being likely to be alone, I can get behnd that idea because she is so solitary on so many levels already - not out of a desire to avoid it seems, but simply because she hasn't found an equal and would rather be alone than settle for second best. That seems a perfectly sensible position but it might get repetitive if too many Radiants run celibate.

For the record, anyone can PM me - its not like you came to my front door lol!