wotbibliophile

I can agree with this. Despite the explanation Sanderson gives, the Alethi seem way too conservative to be so accepting of homosexuality. I actually didn't like this discussion because I would have preferred more nuance. A variety of reactions to Drehy and different levels of tolerance. Instead everyone in bridge 4 seemed to have a hive mind and react the exact same way. I feel like if there had been more nuance it would have been more realistic. Kaladin for instance seemed to view Drehy slightly differently than the rest of bridge 4. I assume everyone in bridge 4 has very different life experiences and that would inform their reaction to homosexuality.

I agree. I have gotten the impression from his books that sex is bad. It makes me very uncomfortable. Why on earth is Adolin so hesitant to be intimate? He is a young man. I thought young men were very hung up on sex, but Adolin appears to be the exception.

I was actually considering one or both of these as reasons Kaladin owes an apology. For the lie and/or for killing her brother. He can still feel regret that she lost her brother and he (Kaladin) was the reason and that can be expressed as an apology even if he would not have done anything differently. ETA: The way I remember it, Kaladin didn't care about Amaram. He wanted to kill the shardbearer that killed his men.

But if she is treating him this way because of Helaran I feel like Kaladin also owes an apology. Killing someone's brother is not something that someone just gets over. Not quickly. I am pretty sure Helaran was Shallan's favorite brother, too. I am also pretty sure Kaladin does not expect to be forgiven for killing her brother. He let her rant about Amaran rather than correct her mistake. Also I said abusive because Shallan singles out Kaladin to pick on and everyone just goes along with it. No one calls Shallan out for her behavior.

While reading OB I thought Dalinar would be the champion and I still think he would make the most frightening champion of all the people who might be the champion. I never considered Shallan, but I would not mind if she went that dark. I considered her uncaring until the Kholinar section in OB. She cared about the people who were starving and I no longer think she will follow a dark path.

@Greywatch Shallan wasn't physical, but I thought she was constantly picking at Kaladin. Verbally, she was cruel.

I've thought about them being friends now that everything is apparently settled and I don't think it is possible. Based on what happened in OB, it would be an abusive relationship. I agree with @CosmicSieve it is probably because of Helaran. It might also be because Shallan has a crush on Kaladin and wishes she didn't.

@Angsos Alright. Perhaps you are right. Living together will make it much harder for Shallan to hide. I give you that.

@Angsos I think you are disregarding the evidence. They have never had a conflict. Adolin has tried to break up with Shallan twice and two seconds later their relationship is the same.

I'm on the side that thinks Shallan/Adolin is another arranged marriage that miraculously is perfectly happy. I want Sanderson to stop. I think Shallan had enormous pressure to make the courtship end in marriage because she thought it would be good for her social standing and her family's social standing. I think Adolin put enormous pressure on himself to make the courtship end in marriage because he literally had no hope of any other relationship working for him. He had gone through every Alethi woman already. I can't remember if I answered the OP question so I'll say I think SKA is resolved and resolved badly. I hope it is not resolved.

I think that is fair. I started to regret writing "successful" soon after I posted. I think Dalinar was committed though.

@Storyspren I almost voted for Adolin. I think he and Evi are tied. I also think Evi had extreme pressure to be as much of a jerk as the Alethi around her and she never wavered.

@Jofwu Is happiness the only measure of a successful marriage? Do you have to be happy all the time? I don't think that is reasonable. Both Dalinar and Evi worked to make the marriage work. They were both committed and they both tried. Neither disliked the other. At times they were happy together. It was shown that they admired each other. As far as I am concerned they were a successful marriage. I agree that showing a marriage is very rare and is something I like to see. I like to see challenges overcome. However, I also prefer to like the couple. At this time, I do not like Shallan/Adolin. The relationship is too unequal. Why on earth does Adolin not think about Shallan throughout OB? The book ends with their marriage! If I remember right, the only thoughts Adolin has about Shallan are disparaging her outfit and noticing that she adores Kaladin. That is all.

Thank you for writing this out. I thought that was so weird. Of all people Dalinar and Evi should not have gotten along, but somehow they did. Every time Dalinar showed he was considerate of Evi's feelings I was surprised because I expect the worst from him. His self regard is never ending. I would say Dalinar was resentful at first and at a few points in his marriage, but he was still (for him) kind to Evi. His resentment did not lead to much cruelty. I think it would have been reasonable for the marriage to lead to dislike, but somehow it never did.

My first thought was Adolin, but I voted for Evi. I should have realized Dalinar would be leading, but I dislike him so much that he is a real blind spot for me.

I would also love a "bests" shardcast.

2. It came across to me that she did not see the value of her own life because Elend was dead. I wish I had the exact quote, but she says Ruin made a mistake by killing Elend. Now she has no reason to live. That is offensive to me. 3. Yes, it matters to me. I think a subversion works best when the new thing is cooler than the expected thing. Sazed is not cooler than Vin. You say overused and boring tropes, but I thought the trilogy was quite different than other fantasy stories. The storytelling was interesting enough that I would not have minded at all if Vin was the Hero of Ages. For one thing it would mean Vin lived. And Vin was a woman. Whenever there is a prophecy in fantasy it is about a man saving the day, including this time. That was disappointing to me. To some comments above. I love Steris. I loved her from her first introduction. I was disappointed at how small her role was in the first book. She made me think of Monk (Tony Shalhoub). Very OCD and very lovable.

1. I really do not like Spook. He took up a lot of HoA. I was reading for Vin. Spook was always a side character and always uninteresting. 2. Vin committed suicide because Elend was dead. Vin giving her life for a cause I could maybe accept. Vin saying she had nothing to live for I will never believe. Vin was very young. She had a lot to live for. (I also hate Romeo and Juliet. Stupid suicidal young people.) 3. Vin was not the Hero of Ages. I will never get over that. I am a very big Vin fan. Final Empire remains one of my favorite Sanderson books.

This is the first shardcast I have listened to. It was fun. Thanks for sharing. My beefs: I strongly dislike Spook. I dislike Hero of Ages. It ruined the trilogy for me. I really don't like that Szeth was accepted so easily by the Kholins. It did not make any sense to me. Jasnah's POV of the prologue showed how scarred she was by Szeth killing her father and yet . . . nothing. No reaction to Szeth being on their side. The way OB wrapped up, I thought no one was going to object to Szeth's many murders. I have a big problem with that. The "humor" of the "witty" characters. Not funny to me. I don't want to read any more. Wayne. I think I dislike him more than any other character. Dalinar. I wish he had become Odium's champion.

@Calderis I actually didn't realize you thought Shallan would be better off without a relationship. Thanks for repeating that. I agree. It would be very nice if Shallan took some time for herself. She deserves it. Adolin deserves it. We will have to disagree about Kaladin. I do not think with more information he would exacerbate Shallan's issues. I think Adolin currently exacerbates Shallan's issues because he treats Veil and Radiant as real. This does not make sense to me. I notice Shallan, The Great Avoider, approves though. I agree. Because Shallan hates herself, I do not believe she has anything to give. She can take and take from Adolin, but what is Adolin getting back?

@Calderis I agree that people lie to themselves or they are mistaken. They believe things to be true that are not. They say things they believe to be true and are being honest as far as they are aware. In Shallan's case, she has Pattern to remind her that even dressed up as Veil, she is still Shallan. This feels just like when Shallan forces herself to not think about things, to forget or blank out. She is forcing herself to think she does not like Kaladin. We have been led to believe this is not healthy for Shallan and that on some level she is aware she is doing this. Like when she tells Pattern if she remembered she would be huddled in a ball and useless or when she tells herself she cannot use her shardblade. This is back before she and Pattern remember how they killed her mother. She knows she is deliberately crippling herself even before that whole scene remembering how her mother died. She fears using her shardblade because she remembers she used it to kill even before that remembering scene with Pattern. That is why when she tells Adolin Veil likes Kaladin I still think this is a lie. On some level she knows she is tricking herself in order to function. The Veil/Radiant masks are her latest coping mechanism but they grew from the same place. Forcing herself to think differently. She is aware that she is forcing herself. I hope I was clear. It is complicated. I am going to disagree with this slightly. Adolin knows about her masks and how lost she feels and not about her past. Yes, I agree. However, Kaladin knows about her past and a tiny bit about her present issues. She tells him her coping mechanism of forgetting is not working as well and that she is getting lost in playing pretend. She does not go into specifics about Veil/Radiant so Kaladin does not know about them. Kaladin's reaction of wishing he could be like her makes her completely shut down and stop talking to him. If Kaladin had not been so broken by what happened in Kholinar he might have shut up and let Shallan keep talking. I really wonder what his reaction to Veil/Radiant would have been. Maybe in the next book we will find out. I imagine he would act like she is obviously still Shallan. We have a sort of evidence of Kaladin's reaction to her disguise in Kholinar before she enters the palace.

Shallan choosing Adolin is fine. It was the way it happened that was not satisfying. I would much prefer to see some consideration from Shallan. Radiant wanting Kaladin was a complete surprise. If anything, I thought Radiant preferred Adolin. We get one line, quickly dismissed, that Shallan had supposedly been debating between Kaladin and Adolin for months. I wanted to see that debate! Shallan is so good at hiding from herself. I have to assume that is still ongoing. I wonder what we are missing. Consider if Shallan did integrate and she would rather be with Kaladin. Veil and Radiant prefer him. Adolin who "knows her" thinks she prefers him. Adolin who has been watching her, believes she has already made her choice. For these reasons, I think it was necessary for Shallan to acknowledge her own feelings in order to make a healthy choice. It's fine if she chooses Adolin, but she has to mean it. I agree. I agree.

You make me smile. Yes, I would love to see Kaladin happy and in a happy romance. It's funny that we can read the same thing and not read the same thing. I feel that this same passage makes explicit that Shallan is not admitting her feelings for Kaladin. She says "they were not her". She is not making a choice of Adolin instead of Kaladin, she's making a choice of Adolin, while also pretending people who are not her choose Kaladin. I feel my reading is backed up by what she says to Adolin's face. That Veil has feelings for Kaladin not her. Notice as well the "stuffed them into the back part of her brain." It has been noted before that this is suppression. Something Shallan is very good at but that may not be good for her. I suppose it is enough for you that we the reader know Veil and Radiant are still Shallan and Shallan takes charge and squashes them in order to choose Adolin, but for me it reads as rushed and not well thought out. Not well thought out by Shallan I mean. Would she have to squash Veil/Radiant if she was at peace with herself? As far as the real relationship versus acquaintance comparison goes. I think that is fair. Shallan and Adolin are in a relationship and Shallan and Kaladin do not know each other well. I still think Shallan and Adolin's relationship is not very healthy because Shallan herself is not very healthy. Well, and also because they can jump from breaking up to getting married. That is not a sign of a healthy relationship to me.

Oh dear. Do not taunt me with such things. OB is over. This is never going to happen. ~wistful~

Yes, I know Shallan believes she was telling the truth. That just makes me much more concerned for her mental health. I've said before I think Shallan is crazy. I think Shallan cannot recognize reality.