wotbibliophile

I agree. At the end of WOR I thought Shallan could go to the dark side. I thought she just didn't care about other people (only herself). With OB I have changed my mind. I don't think Shallan will go to the dark side. It was the Kholinar section that convinced me. I saw that she really cared about the starving people of Kholinar and she tried to help.

This is great. Shallan is classist and I believe Shallan would say stuff to make herself look good. I've actually never seen Shallan as nice. It is why I think she is so fake with Adolin. She is nice to him. Maybe because she is a better person around him, maybe just because she wants to use him and is making sure she looks good. I think I mentioned earlier that I can't see it as a good thing (or natural to Shallan) that she doesn't joke with Adolin. She doesn't tease him (I think that is in the Kholinar section). ETA: Remember Shallan's long conversation about art? She said bad art is better or more useful than good art because it can be learned from. Adolin thinks she is talking about her bad jokes and Shallan says she is talking about Kaladin. Dang Shallan, that's cold. Also, not nice.

So several people think Shallan was less than honest. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I wasn't thinking of Shallan manipulating or lying to herself. I think because I was trying to take the conversation at face value, which is really hard. It makes a lot of sense that Shallan is lying to herself and believing her lies. I have been thinking that for a long time. Shallan's pov or arc is very ambiguous. I do not like it. Kaladin and Dalinar have very little ambiguity and their arcs develop in a way where you see and understand every step they take. Shallan's arc is confusing. I had forgotten that it was Radiant who told Jasnah that she wanted to be her ward. I think because I had been assuming Shallan=Veil=Radiant so it didn't matter that it was Radiant it was still something Shallan wanted. Now I am wondering if I should be treating Radiant as a separate being. Of course Radiant would want to be Jasnah's ward she is the most scholarly of the three and the most (superficially) like Jasnah. What does Shallan want? Does she want to be Jasnah's ward? I can't tell! damnation this ambiguity! ETA: hey, I didn't write damnation. I wrote - ation. Edited again: It is weird how underdeveloped Radiant is. Did she have scenes in OB that were later cut? At the end she is made equal to Veil and Shallan. Veil and Shallan had a lot of development and many POVs. Radiant had half of one pov and from then on we only heard about what she was up to or interested in. It is hard to see Radiant as important even though Shallan apparently relies on her (as much as she relies on Veil). It is really frustrating to get from Radiant that Shallan had been debating for months between Kaladin and Adolin and then to have Radiant prefer Kaladin over Adolin. We did not see this debate taking place. I would have loved to know there was a debate and what that debate consisted of. At one point, Radiant preferred Adolin when did the switch happen?

I am with you @DeployParachute. I am not interested in rereading OB. That is because I found it to be very depressing. The end of Part 3 stuck with me for the rest of the book. There was nothing really satisfying for me to make up for all the sadness. I was wondering what people think of Shallan's line "She has bad taste in men." Shallan is talking to Adolin about Veil liking Kaladin. I was offended by this line and was wondering why Shallan thinks this. I thought it might have to do with Helaran in which case I am not offended. It is hard to think of Kaladin as a good guy when he killed your brother. This makes sense to me. But Helaran is not explicitly tied to this line since Shallan has so completely repressed her reaction. Is there some other reason Kaladin = bad for Shallan? Is it in the text? If it is for any reason other than Helaran I am offended because Kaladin is a catch. I thought of one other reason that Shallan may have said that line. Maybe she said it to manipulate Adolin. She was like "Don't worry Adolin, I'm not interested in Kaladin. Everyone knows he would make a bad partner. I'm only interested in you."

This is an extreme view and you are lumping everyone together which is ridiculous. I can only speak for myself. I think Adolin/Shallan are not in a good place right now. I think it is possible for them to get to a good place. Hopefully, the next book will have their relationship reaching greater depth. If they stay where they are, I will probably dislike their relationship. Adolin/Shallan had plenty of cute moments, but I thought they were mostly superficial.

I'm in the camp that Shallan may make some progress in the year gab, but events in book 4 will bring on another break down. (Sort of like Kaladin going catatonic in Kholinar).

I really appreciate this perspective. I do think Adolin and Shallan moved their relationship forward. It was not enough for me to think they should get married. I do not think Adolin understands Shallan. That is my big problem with their relationship. It is not Adolin's fault. It is Shallan's fault. She is deliberately hiding things from him. I think you mentioned that Adolin noticed there was something wrong or noticed she was putting up fronts, but Kaladin didn't. Like @SLNC said: Adolin did not (with his keen observation skills) realize that Shallan was pretending to be other people. She flat out told him. (This is why I agree they made progress in their relationship. Finally, Shallan was honest with him). Adolin and Kaladin failed to notice Shallan had a problem. I believe they failed because Shallan was hiding her problem. She is a great liar. It is not Adolin or Kaladin's fault that they fall for her lies. The arc you see about honesty and understanding does not work for me because Adolin is the one who is honest and Shallan is the one who is understanding. Shallan is (and will probably always be) a liar and she is hiding herself from Adolin. For example, I think it does matter if Shallan has feelings for Kaladin. Do you believe she has feelings for Kaladin? If you do, then you know she outright lied to Adolin about this. She said she saw him as art and had no interest in getting naked with him. I think this is a lie. I think Shallan manipulated Adolin into marrying her. She would have said anything to get Adolin to marry her (including lie). Then there is the weird assertion that Veil has feelings for Kaladin. I think this is twisted. Veil does not exist except in Shallan's imagination. Is it okay that Veil is still around and presumably still interested in getting naked with Kaladin all while Shallan is "happily" married? Awesome. I think you are right. This can be interpreted more than one way. ETA: I don't know. Adolin is a great guy. Adolin and Shallan could work if Shallan was honest with him. I do not think Adolin and Shallan work now. Shallan does not seem to trust Adolin.

I think your hopes will be dashed. Shallan does have a very strong reaction to Kaladin killing her brother and she suppresses it. I'm pretty sure it will come up again.

I very much wanted this to be addressed in OB. I agree with you that we won't see it mentioned in the next book; that it has just been dropped. I resent Sanderson for it.

I specifically said in Shallan's company. You really think it is realistic to compare Adolin, Shallan's betrothed (who has spent a lot of time with Shallan because they are courting) and Kaladin, Shallan's crush (who she is specifically avoiding because she has feelings for him) and say they should have an equal understanding of Shallan? I certainly think Adolin should have a far superior understanding of Shallan than Kaladin. He doesn't. Up until Shallan tells Adolin about pretending to be other people on Honor's Path, Kaladin had a far superior understanding of Shallan than Adolin. Finally, after Honor's Path, Adolin knows something about Shallan that Kaladin does not. It might be said that Adolin understands Shallan better than Kaladin after Honor's Path. (I am not sure I agree.) I still think it is a problem that Kaladin (a man Shallan has spent almost no time with) knows things about her that her husband (who she has been courting for months) does not. As far as Shallan being an unreliable narrator. I am wavering between yes Sanderson would show her problems in the text and no he still might hide it. Like with the picture Shallan drew. She had no memory of drawing it and neither did Pattern (I find it significant that Pattern lost track of time. Before when Shallan blacked out, Pattern was still aware.) So something significant (the drawing) happened and was hidden from us the reader until Sanderson chose to show Shallan's discovery of it. That could happen with Pattern and Shallan's bond. Something could happen or there could be warning signs and we the reader won't know until Sanderson chooses to show Shallan's discovery of it. It could be like a flashback kind of thing.

I agree with @analyticaposteriori if you are going to compare them and how well they relate to Shallan then how long they have spent in Shallan's company should be relevant. Adolin has spent days and weeks (and maybe months) more time with Shallan than Kaladin has. For Shallan/Kaladin's small interactions they understand each other very well. For Shallan/Adolin's interactions they are only just now getting to know each other. Not flattering. (I say this based a little on the arc you Greywatch mention, that they come to greater understanding of each other.) For example, I think it is brand new information for Adolin that Shallan is a compulsive liar. That is the first thing Kaladin knows about Shallan. lol ETA: @Greywatch Thanks for that post about Shallan and Pattern. It is great to have those quotes. I think it is possible Shallan could ignore signs that Pattern is losing his grip. I don't think that has been ruled out. Pattern seems in pretty good shape which is good, but we also got multiple warnings from Pattern that Shallan was entering a danger zone. The fact that she still has Veil and Radiant and that she is still ignoring her last truth says to me that the potential to hit that danger zone is still there.

I agree with this. My "obsession with the dead" was my shorthand for all this. I wasn't trying to be insensitive and I don't think Tarah was insensitive.

Kaladin is my favorite character in SA. I can be unreasonable defending him. I think he is great in relationships now, in the past, and in the future. When Tarah tells Kaladin she is moving, it seemed to me that both Kaladin and Tarah wanted their relationship to continue. Tarah seemed interested in the possibility of Kaladin moving with her. He didn't. Their relationship did not end because of Kaladin, it ended because Tarah moved away. Tarah did not say to Kaladin: 'Kaladin, you never listen to me! I'm leaving! ' or 'Kaladin, I've been talking about engagement rings for weeks. You won't commit to me! I'm leaving!' or other relationship ending complaints. Instead it seemed like Tarah was like "You'll move? Really?" (said doubtfully but with the implication that if he moved their relationship would continue) and Kaladin says "No, not really, but I wish you well" and Tarah says "Yeah, I wish you well too and I hope you get over you're obsession with the dead." So to me this means Tarah was aware of Kaladin's problem (his problem is not that he is bad at relationships or is a bad boyfriend. His problem is his obsession with the dead) and it was not a deal breaker. Tarah was still interested in a relationship with Kaladin and possibly with helping him let go of the dead. I see it this way. Kaladin had the choice of saving lives (men he cared about) or continuing his relationship with a woman he cared for. He chose to save lives. I think he made the right choice. Priorities! The men in Kaladin's squad lived because of him. I believe that. This does not make Kaladin commitment phobic. Really it makes him a bit selfless. And, in the future, any potential partner for Kaladin is going to have to accept Bridge 4 as his family. If the only way for Kaladin to have a relationship is to abandon Bridge 4 then he is never going to have a relationship. Kaladin's partner is going to have to accept that Kaladin is a package deal (Kaladin + Bridge 4). Kaladin is not going to abandon Bridge 4 for a relationship. Ever. And I wouldn't want him to. We have seen how Kaladin is with Bridge 4. He is caring, considerate, and he listens. I see him being the exact same way with his future partner. I see him as great at relationships. His problem is not that he wouldn't care for his partner, his problem is more that he has trouble caring for himself or relaxing or just having fun. (That last one we have seen a little with Shallan). So I agree that Kaladin is not looking for a relationship, but I don't think that matters. I still think he would be good in a relationship. Syl is very enthusiastic about Kaladin being in a relationship and we have seen Kaladin give in to her nagging already. Also, Tarah pursued him and they ended up in a relationship. (I think their relationship was successful). So it doesn't matter that Kaladin is reluctant, I think he is bound to end up in a relationship anyway and at anytime he would be good in the relationship. (Aside: I thought from Kaladin's thoughts in the chasms scene when he is holding Shallan that he had had sex, but later it seems like when Tarah kisses him after telling him she was moving that that was his complete sexual experience. Really? One kiss? That's it?!?) ETA: Me too!

Kaladin! He is my favorite character in SA. If every chapter was Kaladin's I would be so happy. Well, Kaladin, Syl, and Bridge 4 as long as Kaladin was still in the chapter.

Shallan definitely does insane things with lightweaving at the end of OB that she never could have done before. I am so concerned about her mental health that even her advances in lightweaving seem unstable to me. I feel like she could lose her new talents at any time because I feel like she is bound to have another mental break down. I see what you're saying I just don't see it as improvement. I see it as the same old thing. Repression, repression, repression. Shallan has a moment when she is Veil where she is pretending to be a lighteyes woman. (This is when she is stealing food from lighteyes.) She gets really harsh with Vathah, but she reins it in and falls back to Veil. Do you see what I mean? There is a slight lack of control when she gets too into pretending to be the lighteyes woman, but she does control it and falls back to Veil. All through OB she has enough control to only rely on the big 3. The moment you mention in this quote (her collapse in Kholinar), she is broken down and flashing through faces, then chats with Wit and gets up and carries on. We don't really get a clear explanation for why she's not still catatonic. I think the only explanation is that she represses it. She shuts down Veil for a while and relies on Shallan, but notice there are no new masks. She didn't suddenly make Monica (from Friends). She is still relying only on the big 3. I was with Shallan that she had no idea what she was doing. I don't find bumbling in ignorance very impressive.

Thanks @Dreamstorm for that perspective on how much Shallan has progressed. I prefer her control over her masks to be her progression than her marrying Adolin being her progression. I just do not get how marrying Adolin right now with all the lies is a good thing. I am with you here. I still see Shallan as very static in OB. (Kaladin didn't progress very much either but I still liked his arc. I think it is because we got a very direct confrontation in Kaladin's arc and a very clear failure to say the next ideal.) Shallan's arc is not so clear cut. To me there is very little difference between the Shallan at the beginning of OB and the Shallan at the end. At the beginning, we have Shallan and Veil and the newly made Radiant. Late in OB, we have Shallan, Veil, and Radiant and the quickly squashed possibility of other masks. Shallan's control over her masks is slightly better at the end of OB than it was throughout OB and that is it. That is a very minor change to me. My main take away is that Shallan is very, very good at ignoring her problems and that is what she is doing right up till the end of OB. Like I said, I like Kaladin's arc because we know that he knows what his problem is and we know he is working on it. With Shallan I don't know that she knows what her problem is or if she is working on it. Actually, I think she is not working on it. Because of the way OB ends, we have no idea if Shallan is thinking about her mother or how she blames herself for her family collapsing. Since this is not mentioned, maybe we can assume she is ignoring this problem. I consider Shallan's latest truth (that she killed her mother) to be her main problem. Again, comparing her to Kaladin, Kaladin directly thinks about how and why he failed to say the next ideal. All through Shallan's last scenes we get zero thoughts about her mother or her conversation with Wit (The Girl who Stood Up), or Pattern. I don't think Shallan will kill Pattern, but I do think her bond is in trouble or will be in trouble. ETA: I know it should matter that Shallan is a stable three people now instead of an unstable 3-25 people, but I just roll my eyes at that since she was three people throughout all of OB. I'd say she's been pretty stable.

So? That quote is the first time I have come across that particular idea said in that particular way. It made a lot of sense to me and I really like it. There are people who see Shallan and Adolin as set in stone since they are married now. I have been trying to image Shallan and Adolin are happy together forever and that Shallan and Kaladin are never going to happen. I am really struggling with this. I don't see how Adolin can really help Shallan unless he knows where her problems are coming from. Shallan would have to tell Adolin about killing her parents and her childhood. It might happen and it might not. We do not know. So far there are no signs that she will. I have been thinking that Shallan's brothers will help Shallan heal. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Shallan saying it's alright to be happy is a step forward for her. I don't agree. This is exactly what Shallan has always done. Early in OB she says the key to happiness wasn't clinging to one moment but ensuring many future happy moments. She has always worked toward her own happiness. She has always wanted to be happy and not feel pain. I don't see a change in Shallan from early in OB to the end of OB. Whereas I really liked Kaladin struggling and failing to say his fourth ideal. I am really frustrated that Shallan's non-progress is celebrated as great leaps forward. Shallan's arc seemed to end on a really happy note and I feel like she did not make any progress. ETA: It feels weirdly like Shallan's sub arc of "which man should I choose" is treated like her main arc, when surely her main arc is her progress as a knight radiant. As a knight radiant I do not feel she has progressed

I voted that it was good, but it is my least favorite of the three SA books out. There were scenes I think should have been in there. For example Jasnah's return, grief over Elhokar especially from Navani, what happened to Skar and Drehy, Shallan and Adolin getting married. That last one I personally do not care if it is there or not, but with every other pair Sanderson has brought together I believe we have had a wedding scene however brief. There were threads dropped from WOR like Sadeas (at least kind of), but one dropped thread drives me crazy. Danlan. How is it possible Kaladin did not warn anyone that there was a conspiracy to kill Elhokar that nearly succeeded twice? Now that Elhokar is dead, it is just about irrelevant, but I cannot forgive Kaladin or Sanderson for not mentioning this conspiracy.

I also think love is too strong a word. I just used it because love was the word in the Rothfuss quote and Sanderson has used the word love. I think infatuation works much better for all three involved. Adolin is infatuated with Kaladin, Kaladin is infatuated with Shallan, and Shallan is infatuated with Adolin (and Kaladin and Jasnah and maybe a few other people ). They make a nice ring of infatuation. @Vissy I am sorry the Rothfuss quote makes you think of abusive relationships. I don't think about that at all when I read that quote. If someone is in an abusive relationship they should absolutely save themselves. When I read that quote I think of less extreme situations. If someone is in a relationship (not abusive) with a basically good person and holds that person's flaws against them I think that is wrong. It does seem like expecting perfection or only loving perfection and that is lame to me. Love is about loving the whole person and not picking and choosing. @SLNC and @Dreamstorm said it well.

I think Kaladin realizing Shallan reminds him of Tien both in the chasm scene and at the end of OB is exactly the same realization in both scenes. In both scenes he thinks Shallan and Tien shine (i.e. they make their own light), are optimistic, and lighten his burdens. Kaladin is more cheerful when he is with them. This is something he likes about both of them. It does not have to be romantic; it is just something he likes about both of them. I also think the realization at the end of OB reads like this is new information. This reminds me of WOT. Spoiler!!!! Sanderson finished the WOT series. He wrote a scene where Perrin learns that saidin has been cleansed. This was a scene that already happened in a previous book (I’m pretty sure it was written by Jordan). Sanderson admitted it was a mistake that happened because it had been some time since he had last read the series. Notice Sanderson was not the only one responsible for this scene being published. Many people read early drafts of the book. The book went through the editing process and the mistake still ended up being published. And obviously Sanderson is not the only author to forget things or to make mistakes. This happens to all authors. I think it is possible that Kaladin comparing Shallan to Tien at the end of OB reads like new information because Sanderson forgot he had already written this. Not a certainty, just a possibility. As far as how Kaladin and Shallan think of each other. I really like it. They both have idealized perceptions of the other but this is after having very negative ideas about each other and after learning more about the other. Their ideas about each other changed a lot. Shallan calls Kaladin hateful during the chasm scene and late in WOR she is drooling over him. I think about Patrick Rothfuss’ line in Wise Man’s Fear: I love this quote. I feel sure Kaladin sees Shallan’s flaws and loves them too. And I love that. It is harder to tell with Shallan since she disguises what she feels so well, but I think she sees Kaladin’s flaws as well and is still infatuated with him. In the chasms Shallan is very aware of how grumpy and brooding Kaladin is. So much so that she calls him hateful and decides he hates everyone. Later Shallan will go on and on about brooding eyes so maybe she loves that about him. I think Kaladin and Shallan see the best in each other. They know neither is perfect but they see the best. Kaladin and Shallan are both down on themselves (more than they need to be. They each focus on their failures and not on the fact that they tried very hard to do something good.) Kaladin and Shallan focus on the good in the other and admire it. They admire how hard the other tries and like that about the other. I really like this and I think they are pretty close to the truth. The more positive way they see the other is more accurate then the negative way they see themselves.

@Isilel Bless you. Well said. I loved Eshonai. I will continue to image she makes a comeback until the 10th book proves me wrong.

I strongly agree. I think letting Szeth fall in order to grab the Honorblade is much worse than killing Szeth during a fight. I also pretend the original ending still holds. This is a great point.

I was trying to say that it was my reading not that it could not be read any other way. I read that Shallan shared a secret and it was not a big one. With Kaladin she told him things she had never told anyone else and that she still has not told anyone else. (Maybe she talked to Wit about the same things.) With Adolin she told him that she pretends she is other people and that she could not decide who she should be. I think why she does this is much more important than the fact that she does it. I took this as a step forward in their relationship but a very small step. My problem is not that I think Shallan will never share more. My problem is that she married Adolin without sharing more. I think Shallan's issues are so serious that they needed to be resolved before she got married. Also we know she thinks of herself as a monster. She is hiding this from Adolin. I think it is possible that she does not tell him because she fears he will reject her. Your post was about accepting the real person. I think Adolin has not accepted Shallan's real self because she is hiding her real self from him.

Hi @Peanut, @GarrethGrey, @Seize . Really great English. I understood you easily. I admire all who know more than one language. Post as much as you like; long or short it does not matter. Very interesting to read. Thank you. For me this falls flat because Shallan is certainly hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin tells Shallan about killing Sadeas. This is the worst thing he has ever done. This was his biggest secret. He murdered someone, covered it up, lied to everyone and then he tells Shallan. She accepts him. Shallan does not tell him about her secrets. I see Shallan and Adolin's relationship as very imbalanced. I was rereading the chasm scene. Just a small part and I was shocked that Kaladin reflects about Shallan seeing her mother die in front of her. I had it in my head that Shallan told Kaladin all about her childhood but nothing about her mother. I thought she was blocking it out so she hadn't told him. But actually she told him everything she remembered. I don't think he knows she killed her mother because that is something she had forgotten, but she told him everything else. In the end he admired her. He respected her. He thought of her as a survivor. This warms my heart. This is not a part of Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Shallan is still hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin does not know the real her. It makes me very disappointed that they are married now.

I can't decide what kind of thread this is. Are we just supposed to vote and leave it or . . . Well I'm going to respond. I do acknowledge Dalinar has changed and I do not forgive him. It takes a lot for me to forgive a fictional character I never liked in the first place. 1. Genuine change (which I can agree Dalinar has genuinely changed) 2. Atonement. Dalinar has not atoned and I doubt he ever will. I think he would have to sacrifice something for me to think he has atoned. He was the de facto king of Alethkar despite promising never to be king and now he is the king of Urithiru. He is literally on top of the world. He has lost nothing? little? He feels remorse but he is still the most powerful man in the world. I think he should pay for his crimes. And I think he never will. Feeling remorse does not count as paying for his crimes. I mean for me it does not count.