Alderant

I thought she (Re-Shephir) was one of the Unmade?

Well, we have...twice. She turned a goblet to blood and a ship to water through soulcasting, which is the Surge of Transformation. I’m not drawing a hard line between the surges. I just think that there is a more natural reason than purely the magic system at work. I will consent that the surges (or rather the bond that grants those surges) might augment the natural ability, such as Kal’s battle prowess is augmented by his bond with Syl, but I refuse to ascribe magic as the cause of everything a character accomplishes. There was also a lot of emphasis in that book (especially during tbe segment in question) on people reacting to you based on how you presented yourself, and that confidence came from within, not without. I prefer to think that even had Shallan not been a radiant-in-training she would have been able to effect that change in the men. Thats all.

I don't know about that. Not yet. As a side note, I'm not even sold that what Shallan saw was a spren. We haven't had any evidence of spren able to do what it's doing (i.e., murdering, lifting a knife, picking up a person or even pushing them, changing its form and coloring). Syl is considered a one of the more "into-the-physical-realm" spren we know of and she struggles with picking up small, lightweight objects on her own, and when she changes form she is still bluish-white. And this thing somehow is replicating entire crime scenes on its own. And finally, most spren don't appear to be bound by physical restraints, yet this thing was. I'm just not sold on it.

It's possible that there's something like Threnody, where the inhabitants of the planet leave an imprint on the residual investiture, but I think what happens at death is pretty universal in the Cosmere. What happens on Scadrial seems to be almost automatic, so I can't imagine it's super different throughout Cosmere. Its the amount of Investiture in a person that keeps someone from moving immediately Beyond--its just that not every planet has a living Shard for the people to spend their last moments with.

That's the weird way it works across the Cosmere, to my knowledge. Even on Scadrial. It has to do with A) the vast amount of cognitive elements on the continent (creating that "sea" of glass balls or the "sea" of mists on Scadrial), B) the perceptive fluidity of the continent (humanity and other sentience moves back and forth, across boundaries, as though the continent itself weren't significant), C) the perceptive permanence of a barrier like the ocean (thus its appearance as solid ground), and D) the lack of cognition in the void of space between the planets. If you've read the Wheel of Time, you can see how Shadesmar/the Cognitive Realm was influenced by RJ's Tel'Aran'Rhiod, where objects that were ephemeral (such as human possessions) had a much weaker presence in the world of dreams than object that had existed for a very long time (such as castles).

So here's the thing. I'm not super well versed in the lore of the surges and history of the KR, but it stands to reason that the Order wasn't a bunch of psychopaths and nutjobs. From WoR: What it sounds to me like, is that the Dustbringers, due to the nature of their power, were stuck with some pretty nasty work. That doesn't mean that they were all monsters, they just had the requisite tools to do a dirty job. This indicates that the powers of the Dustbringers was prone to devastating results. This would easily cause unease in the common folk, causing them to spread rumors about the Dustbringers. Rumors would evolve as rumors do, and then what's left? You have an Order of Radiants who are held at odds with the people for doing their job, and that Order would grow to resent that treatment, I think. But we don't have any notes that the Dustbringers turned their abilities on the people--I think that would have been mentioned by now in all the times the Recreance has been brought up. That out of the way, my thoughts on the spren are this. I think curiosityspren is a good name for how Pattern described the spren. Here's the full text in question: Now, I love my toddler. But "destroying things" is something that she does without even trying to. Note here that Pattern doesn't explicitly or implicitly state that the spren is bad or even that he dislikes them. In my head, he states this almost factually, the way he does most things. Pattern conveys emotion well. His voice gets small when he is afraid. He vibrates when he's excited. Shallan doesn't notice any reaction from him here, and her response is particularly bland: Now, I'm a curious person. I like to know how things work. I like to go into code, see how it's designed, and play with it. Often, I end up breaking whatever it is I'm looking at. Once I took apart my watch because I wanted to see how it worked. I frequently take apart pens, computer mice, and other electronics. Just the other day I took apart a pipe wrench so I could see how its components fit together. That doesn't mean I'm a serial killer or that I have sociopathic tendencies. Sociopathy is a mental disconnect between actions and consequence. A sociopath doesn't understand why doing something (like murder) is wrong. Psychopathy is often considered an inability to empathize or sympathize with another's plights. Often the two are used interchangeably. However, it's a common TV trope to have a serial killer who "just wants to know how things work," such as Sylar in Heroes, but for the vast majority of situations where someone "breaks what is around them to see what's inside," well, I'd relate that more to a toddler. Toddlers are curious by nature. They have a zest for learning, and they often break many valuable things because of that zest. I think toddlerspren would actually be a more applicable name, now that I think on it.

I mostly do the audiobooks, so i will be starting at the beginning and probably end up reading it several times. But Im going to go back and reread WoK & WoR first so everything is fresh in my head (though Ive read both 5 or 6 times).

I certainly hope so! I forgot about that carriage ride sequence. Good point, have a cookie. Kaladin is an observant person, absolutely. He might notice it. But he might not say anything. That's my worry--on the Shallan end. I worry she's going to try to do it. This is the thing I don't get about the whole Shallan/Adolin vs. Shallan/Kaladin thing. Almost immediately, Kaladin notices things about Shallan on a deeper level than Adolin. He's going to pick up that things are off for her, but is he going to have time to confront her about it? He's got responsibilities, men to take care of an Emperor (High-King?) to defend, and a lordling-turning-high prince to deal with. I believe that Kaladin is better equipped to help Shallan with what's going on, but will she let him? That's the question.

I would be okay with any of the suggestions (except Alcatraz. I haven't read any of the Alcatraz books yet), but I concur most with something on Threnody. Something fascinating is going on there and I. want. to. know. what.

Oh, I see where you're coming from. Coming from that angle, I can see how you would discount Jasnah. Though at this point, everyone does think Jasnah is dead...but then that goes back to my "written after the events of Oathbringer" point, so I'll concede.

Unless you take the possibility into account that the book hasn't been written yet. With everything going on in Urithiru, perhaps the rediscovery of Oathbringer (the Blade) causes a big enough social catastrophe that would warrant a current character writing the book. Though I doubt Shallan herself wrote it at this point, she and other characters become a possibility if you take into account events that may not have happened yet, especially since there is a historical example of a character writing the "epigraph book", after the book in which it is included--Hero of Ages. I just think it's too early to absolutely deny any characters. I would certainly describe what happened to Jasnah as a near-death experience. She was very nearly mortally stabbed and her spren pulled her completely into Shadesmar to save her life. It might have been done by Stormlight healing and Elsecalling, but discounting it as "not" just because magic was involved is a little too determinate to me. This is a very Taravangian statement to make. He seems totally convinced (at least, during his days of intelligence) that he has made the correct decisions, even if he knows they are horrible, horrible decisions. I really feel like some of this is misdirection. Certain phrases seem targeted at specific characters. "I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims." -- Jasnah "I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand." -- Teravangian "However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own." -- Shallan Just as an example. Brandon is great at using misdirection to lead you one direction intentionally, then turn it about on your head. Well of Ascension was a great example of this--leading the whole book into thinking Vin was going to save the world, and then she doomed it by releasing Ruin as he thunders out "I'M FREE!"

Let me clarify. I think you might be on to something with the "null" persona, but I also think that might be more of a personal quirk than a persona. When I get into dangerous situations time seems to slow for me and I get very calm as well, but maybe there's some residual magic going on as well. As far as doing things she regrets, you're absolutely right! I don't think she needs a persona for that. I don't think Kaladin killing Helaran is exactly traumatic, per se. Not with all the information at hand. But I do worry that as she comes to realize the depth of her feelings for Kaladin, she will use a persona (a vaguely altered persona like Radiant) to deal with that situation, just because she doesn't want to deal with it. Especially if this happens to coincide with a certain revelation pending from a certain high-prince... More likely, what will happen is that she'll just shove her feelings on the matter into a little box and try to ignore Kaladin...like she's doing...right now. You know, I seem to recall making this point myself... Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I doubt she will do it for every situation. If she does anything, I think Radiant will be the persona she adopts around Kaladin, kind of like "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady" is the persona she adopts with Adolin, which is a little different from the Shallan we see by herself or with Kaladin. "Radiant's a soldier. Radiant's got a soldier's head. Plus, Radiant won't be as bothered by the trials of war as Shallan." I'm worried that Shallan, refusing to address the problem because she doesn't have to, will begin thinking along these lines, and if, as Radiant, she begins to realize the depths of her emotions regarding Kaladin (which Shallan has only the inkling of right now), that could make things very...messy.

Also @notsawerd Ordinarily, yes. There would be too much metal and the weight would require two hands to wield. This is why these extremely long swords were almost never used except in the instance of killing horse and rider in one swing (i.e. the japanese tanbato). However, shardblades weigh a fraction of the weight they should for that much steel, so they can be used one-handed by even ordinary un-shardplated men. Your control isn’t as good with one hand though, which is why most of the stances use two. Your swings are more controlled so the blade goes along the path you want it to. Combine that with the augmented strength of shardplate, and yes, one could easily dual-wield shardblades. It wouldn’t be advisable, though, since you would put your surrounding soldiers at twice the risk.

Ah that block of text was hard to read. Use some white space and punctuation, man! This is not necessarily true. There are a number of reasons for why she would want to continue the betrothal--stability, chance for normalcy, etc. Certainly she likes him as a person; I like him as a person. I don't know that we would be friends IRL, though... Anyway, liking someone is not the same as loving someone. She doesn't love Adolin. Not yet. She's infatuated with him, she thinks him physically attractive, but as of right now there is something lacking in their relationship to my view. They are cute together, and I hope they can make it work--I'll really be happy either way, so long as she's happy. However, right now I don't see them lasting, and it has nothing to do with my views as a Shalladin shipper. I would argue against the second part of this. She has innumerably more experiences with Adolin by this point, and the fact that you argue that Shallan not describing Adolin as vividly because a lack of intense experience implies the opposite of what you think it does. And yet...she still mentioned wanting to kiss Adolin in Kaladin's presence, so that's not it. It was certainly an ordeal, but something happened in the chasm between Shallan and Kaladin. They shared very deeply buried and personal information with each other--information neither has shared with anyone else, before or since. Um....I will agree to disagree with you on this point. I agree that Shallan needs positivity right now, but what she needs more is someone who she will let help her confront her demons, and then will show her they still love her anyway. And I'm not saying that has to be Kaladin, or Adolin. But she needs to confront her demons and accept them more than anything else.

Absolutely. See below:

Hahaha.... @MadhavDeval Don't get me started. You're in a thread called "Shalladin revisted". It stands to reason that most people here are coming from the Shalladin perspective and you're just bringing the shipping war unnecessarily. Everyone here loves Adolin. Most of us just think Kaladin is better for her. But this thread is not for Shadolin.

Not unless she were to somehow become Connected to Sel and gain the Identity of a person born and raised in Shai's neck of the woods. Sellian Investiture is very much restricted to physical location, and even people born there can't use Sellian magic foreign to their native home.

The common consensus I've heard is that that title belongs to the writers of Once Upon a Time.

In which case the veilspren would become an external entity, not part of Shallan herself. It is an interesting idea that illusions, as they are made of Investiture, could potentially become sentient, but the problem is that Investiture does not become sentient while under the direct influence of a will, which Shallan provides. In order for a "veilspren" to become sentient, Veil would have to be so universally recognized that she became the equivalent of a force of nature or human emotion. That would be very difficult to attain before the stormlight "ran out". We're also talking about Shardic level splinters left without a will of their own and cosmically recognized aspects of existence (human aspects/emotions that are so prevalent that they have left imprints on the cognitive realm, and forces of nature so prevalent they have also left imprints on the cognitive realm through millennia of human perception). We're not talking about the infinitesimally small amount of Investiture of stormlight usage in comparison--I don't think Shallan could channel enough stormlight for long enough for that to be a real possibility. But for the sake of argument...I would be very worried about anyone bonded to a veilspren. Those things are violent and all too keen on the stabby-stabby.

Oh the spoilers. Yata, I have legitimate questions. Sorry, I'm not trying to be confrontational. This is not my area of expertise and you're certainly more versed than me.

So I could be completely off-base, but we never actually learn what Dalinar's boon/curse are. We assume the curse is forgetting his wife, but I always thought that was probably the boon. The blackthorn was pretty savage, but we already have begun to see his transformation beginning. He said in WoK (I think? Maybe it was WoR?) that he had bound himself with rules to keep him from becoming the Blackthorn in full again. One of which was that he could never be king, which we just saw. I don't see the boon/curse being used to turn him from that, when he was already beginning to swing that way. I always thought that he went to the Nightwatcher out of grief, and his curse just hadn't been revealed yet. We know that Evi was around long enough to give birth to Adolin and Renarin, but I thought she died when Renarin was very young. Maybe I am off-base.

Okay. My general thought here is that Adolin was an idiot in this moment and entirely obtuse with regards to how Shallan was feeling. HOWEVER, we do have to give Adolin the benefit of the doubt--he was just kicked out of the meeting with Amaram and he's a little wound up from that. Personally, I've been through situations where people drop some pretty big bombs. And you do and should ask how they are feeling, then ask what you can do to help. Sometimes, most of the time, they tell you they need time to process. At which point you step back and let them do so. Where Adolin erred is that he didn't even acknowledge her change in behavior. He doesn't seem to realize how it affected her--he's too absorbed with Amaram and how that situation will play out with Kaladin, and while he may realize to a small degree that she is upset, the fact remains that he kind of glossed over the whole thing, which is what upsets most people. To quote my daughter's favorite show, "Not cool, man. Not cool."

I'm going to spoiler my reply, just in case. Sorry, it's a mistype on my part. See my above spoiler.

That ability being tied to the Lightweavers as a whole makes it sound like it is, in part, magical. It's like Kaladin's connection with his bridgemen, it's something he does naturally but it's enhanced by his abilities as a Windrunner, shown by them gaining some small part of his abilities themselves as squires. You're mixing magic with religion here. "Spiritual sustenance" is a phrased used by the religious. "My bishop is responsible for my spiritual sustenance." It means that many of the Lightweavers were seen as theological or idealogical leaders--responsible for keeping the Radiants from being consumed by the darkness they faced. It's why many soldiers turn to religion after being in the battlefield. But I agree with you to a point--I think that Lightweavers are certainly capable (perhaps with magically augmented natural abilities, such as windrunners with leading men) of helping others to see their best selves, but I would argue that this is hardly surgebinding at work--this is just the magic augmenting what is already there. You can't take Pattern's words literally after telling me I'm being too literal. Pattern is very figurative in his analyses. His entire culture is Sprenworld is related to the lies humans tell each other--even small white lies like your aforementioned situation with Gaz, which I'll address in a minute. Agreed to an extent. As an artist myself, I LOVE how Brandon represents artists and their desires. It's awesome, and I'm not ragging on Shai--I think her abilities are pretty cool. However, Shai's abilities literally change an object. In this respect I would actually say her abilities are closer to Soulcasting rather than Lightweaving, because both involve the literal changing of something into something else. Shallan's Lightweaving, as I previously mentioned however, are temporary. We don't have a single instance of her Lightweaving lasting without her active focus on it (even if that is just through the providing of stormlight). Again, we're talking about two different things here. Yes, Shallan may have some extra help from a magically augmented latent ability (such as Kaladin's battle-prowess), but the changes on Kaladin were very much tied to the emotional connection the two were able to share. She showed him definitively, through herself, that not all lighteyes were like Sadeas or Roshone. For him that was a big revelation, and ultimately what led to his decision to save Elhokar at the end of WoR. When Shallan transforms herself, all that changes are the things applicable to the senses. What she is going through is not the danger of possibly losing her sense of identity through constantly pretending to be someone else--it's that she's deliberately trying to do so. She is trying to erase "Shallan the wretch" from existence, but her Truths aren't letting her. She's afraid of that part of herself. She's afraid of how the others will see her. So instead of facing it, she tries to run from it. Hide it. Bury it. But she can't, because of her Truths. When Shai transforms herself, as I mentioned before, she literally changes herself. She rewrites her entire history, and her body changes accordingly to reflect those different experiences. This doesn't happen with Shallan. With Shallan it's pretense. With Shai it's true, until the seal wears off. Yes it's a white lie. But it's also the truth, as she points out in the quote: This is something that we as humans do. This is not a magical phenomenon. As humans, when we try to help others see their best selves we augment their good qualities to urge them on the path that they could be. We tell small children how beautiful their artwork is, even though its just a mess of scribbles and lines with no comprehension to it. We downplay bad things so that others don't feel so badly about a mistake. Shallan may have had some augmentation to help convey those things to the men, but what changed for them was the chance for redemption, to gain their honor back. They had been beaten down and abused, and here Shallan was telling them they were needed and honorable. Any good man in that situation would feel the same, especially after seeing the gratitude of those they saved. When Pattern says she transformed them, she did. But it wasn't through magic--it was through her actions, and her deliberate attempt to see the best in them. To Pattern, that is a power. She made the lie (that they were honorable men at the time--they weren't, they were deserters intent on harm) into the truth (they became honorable and saved the caravan).